Ostwind Flakpanzer

[TNT]

It is not often that I scream for nerf, whine, or complain, but the ostwind flakpanzer has got me in a tizzy. I had 2 mortar teams, 2 riflemen squads, 1 ranger squad, and a greyhound. It destroyed ALL OF THEM in seconds, my infantry was gone so fast I couldnt tell what was happening, only see +3 XP everywhere. My rangers never got a shot off. At first I thought it was an artillery strike. This has happened too many times to stand idly by.

Lets take a look at it:

Shreds infantry and light vehicles in seconds flat.
Has an insane rate of fire and is difficult to kill since it rapes anti-tank guns.
Is cheap to produce.


Hmmmmmm. Is it me or is this thing way overpowered? Alongside a panther or tiger they are an invincible team, destroying enemy tanks, enemy infantry, enemy emplacements, and enemy AT guns. Its re-friggin-diculous. Who agrees? I think the rate of fire should be nerfed and damage should be nerfed. It is just too damn good, and it is fast enough to flank any tank momentarily.

[DatonKallandor]

Available relatively early.

HUH? It's in the LAST building axis gets. Just there with the LAST tanks Axis gets. It's at the complete end of the tiers. You cannot delay it any further.

It's also far from cheap, looses against all proper tanks. It's infantry and light vehicle killing power is it's job.


Daton

[TNT]

That was a misunderstanding about being available early, but I still think the fuel price needs to be scaled up.


I found that 2 of them were able to outmaneuver my M10 tank destroyer, and shred it. With 3-5 of these things, an axis player can bum rush somebody's race, kill all anti-tank guns and bunkers, and start ripping buildings apart.

[Starfisher]

3-5 of them?

The game looks balanced for 1v1 play. If someone has 3-5 Flakpanzer in a 1v1, you screwed up. I have never, ever run into a problem 1v1 with Flakpanzer unless I was making mistakes left and right, mistakes like expecting a mixed group of infantry with only one squad with any AT ability to do anything against a FlakPanzer.

Combined arms. An AT gun or three, a TD or two, and a few infantry squads will kill Flakpanzers and Panthers if used properly.

[Demon_Eyes]

The flakpanzer is a late game unit, however the Flakpanzer fuel cost appears too low. It has the durability and speed of the panzer IV but absolutley tears apart infantry and light armored vehicles.

[Crackbone]

I agree, as I am also one who doesn't cry nerf stick too often, but the Ostwind is a freaking nightmare, and what's sickening is the fuel cost being so low. Sure it's a later game building, but my god, that thing pwns every piece of infantry in it's path...

Wait, not just infantry, armored cars, AT guns, infantry, halftracks...

It's a speedy little bugger, has insane range, and furthermore is only 40 fuel to pop it out, whereas the allied equivalent(Croc) is 110 fuel, has no where near the speed or the range, and is virtually impotent against any armored target.

I know the point of the unit... it's to counter massive infantry spam... at present it does much more... either lower its range, increase its fuel cost(s), or give AT guns some sort of buff against it, because, as is, it's a wrecking ball.

[Colonel_Darren]

You guys seem to miss the point, Flak isnt like fire that comes out of the croc, its a shell, that explodes into nice shrapnel, it gets fired fast, sure the flakpanzer is realitively cheap, but if you've got a sherman out, you can take down a couple of em, and if your opponent is dumb enough to just spam them, and your dumb enough not to build a sherman, whats the problem?

[Soulblighter]

I found that 2 of them were able to outmaneuver my M10 tank destroyer, and shred it.

You did not use the M10 effectively at all. In addition why did you have a tank by itself? Every single tank needs some sort of support.

[shadowcreaper]

Ostwind Flakpanzer what is this? is it that halftrack with art??

[Starfisher]

No, it is a tank produced by the Panzer Command building that shoots flak shells.

[Andkat]

The Ostwind is as durable as the Panzer IV? From my experience in CoH, that does not appear probable. I find that Ostwinds die very swiftly to any form of dedicated anti-tank fire; an AT Gun will total one faster than a StuG. A couple of sticky bombs should do the trick in the situation aforementioned; split your infantry and flank the tank. A side- or rear-sticky would probably total or at minimum damage the tank.

[Tiresias]

a flakpanzer with veteran upgrades is a monster but it's very vulnerable to AT guns and other tanks. Not sure there's an issue here

[DoltIncognito]

I'm going to have to say this is imba, also. It's THE most effective anti-infantry unit in the game. It's fast, has incredible range, and kills infantry *fast*. It's also against more than just infantry. It can demolish vehicles and buildings, too.

Alone you can take it out with tanks, or enough AT guns. But it's fire is so insanely fast, all it has to do is get close to infantry to do insane damage. An infantry supported tank? The Flak will kill the infantry before it dies.

Tigers + Flaks? It's all you need. Ultimate anti infantry and anti armor. Stockpile fuel for flaks, and blitz for Tigers. Allies have no combination that is anywhere that potent. Can it be countered? Yes. Is it probably too difficult to counter? Yes.

[TNT]

You did not use the M10 effectively at all. In addition why did you have a tank by itself? Every single tank needs some sort of support.

To be honest I was not expecting it. My teammate had left the game early (it was a 2v2) and I was mainly attacking with infantry. It was almost impossible for me to win at that point, especially since it was the larger man (McGaecher's War or something like that). Apparently the second player raced forward in technology and found a weak spot in my line, and rushed my base with them. I was able to take out the first 2-3 with an M10 and AT guns I produced for that purpose, but they kept coming and overran me by shredding my AT guns and outflanking my M10. After that they raped my motor pool and tank depot, and rolled through the rest of my base.

[Demon_Eyes]

The Ostwind is as durable as the Panzer IV? From my experience in CoH, that does not appear probable. I find that Ostwinds die very swiftly to any form of dedicated anti-tank fire; an AT Gun will total one faster than a StuG. A couple of sticky bombs should do the trick in the situation aforementioned; split your infantry and flank the tank. A side- or rear-sticky would probably total or at minimum damage the tank.

I see about the same number of pings on a flakpanzer as a panzer IV, seems to take as many shells average to kill either. Proper use of the flakpanzer is always moving to avoid units, unlike the panzer IV the flakpanzer has fairly fast turret tracking and as with the panzer IV and stug it can outrun infantry in forward or reverse.

[Andkat]

Odd, I seem to recall my Panzer IV's being much more durable in-game....

Anyway, Flakpanzers are fairly ineffective against vehicles and buidlings, in my experience. Sure they can blast open a half-track, but what vehicle cannot by that point in the game? They barely scratched Shermans in the last patch, IIRC.

[Ax3]

I'm going to have to say this is imba, also. It's THE most effective anti-infantry unit in the game. It's fast, has incredible range, and kills infantry *fast*. It's also against more than just infantry. It can demolish vehicles and buildings, too.

So it should be able too for a high teir unit.
I find that it is pretty well balanced.
+ Late Game Veh
+ Easily destroyed by AT, T or ATI
+ Countered by High Rate of fire (which it had)
+ Low fuel? So? It is very easily destroyed.

[DoltIncognito]

So it should be able too for a high teir unit.
I find that it is pretty well balanced.
+ Late Game Veh

And what magical counter do we have for it? The only non-doctrine counter is the Sherman. Which takes ages to kill it. While the Flak insta-rapes all your infantry and light vehicles. The Flak is cheap, it's extremely fast, it kills almost instantaneously, and it's multi-purpose. I see now downside and a whole lot of ups. You can suicide into a huge group of tanks and AT guns, but still kill enough infantry to make it worthwhile.

+ Easily destroyed by AT, T or ATI

No. AT guns get destroyed by it. Just get behind cover until you can get close, and demolish the AT gun in seconds. The only non-doctrine tank that can really destroy it easily is the Sherman. Anti tank infantry? They'll be lucky to get a single shot off - at its front armor. Then they're dead.

+ Countered by High Rate of fire (which it had)

I don't get this.

+ Low fuel? So? It is very easily destroyed.

By a Pershing, maybe. And while you're doing that, chances are a Tiger is killing your Pershing. It has an insanely low cost - considering it is the most effective anti-infantry unit in the game.

[FooF]

Homeworld Reference: Flakpanzer = Missile Destroyer

Once Missile Destroyers showed up in Homeworld, using Fighters was an excercize in futility. The only thing you could do was hit it with more dedicated anti-capship vessels like Destroyers or Heavy Cruisers. On its own, it wasn't overpowered but used in conjuction with other combined arms, it was nasty.

I see Flakpanzers as near carbon-copy versions of the Missile Destroyer: neutralizes Infantry, even anti-tank Infantry. The problem is that, like the MD, it has the hitpoints/armor and firepower to take on foes it is not clearly dedicated in destroying. MDs in Homeworld could take out Ion Cannon Frigates pretty easily, even though the ICF was anti-capital ship. The Flakpanzer is able to take out an M10 (if micro isn't involved) 1 on 1.

The way I see it, the tank is doesn't break the game, it's just simply a hard counter to Infantry and also very reliable against Light Armor. What it can't do is take on a Sherman nor can it sustain the fire of artillary, bombs, well-placed AT guns, etc. It should be feared if you're an infantry commander but even then, a Howitzer barrage would do the trick.

I have no problem with hard counters as long as the unit a.) costs a lot b.) has its own hard counter and/or c.) is far enough down the tech tree that getting one means late game, which is inherently risky. The Flakpanzer meets b. and c., which is good enough for me.

[Bentguru]

As an axis player I would say a small boost in the fuel cost, something like 50-60 total, wouldn't be totally out of line seeing how reliably the tank takes out infantry and light armor. I can't really say if it is as tough as the panzer, but if so it's hp could do with a little nerf as well.

I'd be fairly ok with this since in a combined arms fight those nerfs arent going to help allies much. But if caught on it's own a flakpanzer should get taken down by AT infantry or guns provided their commander is using is brains and microing them.

[Wolfey]

I don't think its the flakpanzer itself that's overpowered, it's that its allied counterpart is so underpowered. The crocodile takes ages to kill infantry, where as the flakpanzer kills them instantly not giving them a lot of time to fire back with AT. The croc is cheaper in MP, but has a grotesque fuel req. It's also tremendously less versatile than the flakpanzer The only thing the flakpanzer cant do is torch buildings....but my engineers do it for much cheaper than a croc. The croc needs to be more than the worlds most expensive bulldozer.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The AT guns work perfectly if you use them right (IE as an ambush weapon).

[Panzeh]

The allied AT guns can't ambush very well because the axis player can see them and back off to bring in support units.

[TNT]

I don't think its the flakpanzer itself that's overpowered, it's that its allied counterpart is so underpowered. The crocodile takes ages to kill infantry, where as the flakpanzer kills them instantly not giving them a lot of time to fire back with AT. The croc is cheaper in MP, but has a grotesque fuel req. It's also tremendously less versatile than the flakpanzer The only thing the flakpanzer cant do is torch buildings....but my engineers do it for much cheaper than a croc. The croc needs to be more than the worlds most expensive bulldozer.

I sort of agree with this. If the crocodile received an insane boost the Flakpanzer might become acceptable.


For now, flakpanzers are the "I win button" of late-game fights. Unless the enemy has shermans ready to take them out (which not many people do because quite frankly, shermans suck and are way too expensive) they screw over everything the allies can throw at them. They can rape or run away from AT guns, shred anti-tank infantry, and are way too fast to be killed by artillery of any sort. That means OP imo.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Eh. With tanks and AT guns on the field I've never had too much of a problem with flakpanzers. They are rather fragile.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The allied AT guns can't ambush very well because the axis player can see them and back off to bring in support units.

It's all about placement. Put it somewhere where by the time they see it, it'll be shooting their side or rear armour.

[macktheknifeau]

Axis win late game. It's just that simple. 3 man engineer squad usually win the opening skirmishes, allied inf and armour car spam wins the middile, and axis armour wins late.

[TNT]

Axis win late game. It's just that simple. 3 man engineer squad usually win the opening skirmishes, allied inf and armour car spam wins the middile, and axis armour wins late.

Sadly, he is right. I think relic's main focus (after fixing server and connection issues) should be balancing early and late games.

But I disagree on early game, against a competent axis player allies have a hard time (especially on chokepoint maps like Semois) because axis players build machinegunners first and rush them to the chokepoints. They are impassable until allied players can create mortars or be lucky enough to get a grenade in the window (which you still have to research).

[TheDeadlyShoe]

flaaaaamethrowers, TNT.

Ally players can also go MG-centric if they build a Weapon Support Center first instead of a Barracks.

[TNT]

I have never found flamethrowers that effective because they seem to get pinned down and slaughtered. I must be used them wrong... I'll try using them and approaching from the side of a building so they have time to get up close.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The main thing you need to use flamethrowers is flanking and 1 or 2 distraction squads. People usually count MG'd sectors as 'secure' in the early game so there's rarely backup in place that will screw you up. Ideally you want the MG firing out of one side of the building and your engineer approaching from another. But the prime requisite is insuring that your engineers don't get pinned by the MG. Engineers should never be close enough to one of your other squads to be pinned by fire directed at it.

Even if you do it right, it will probably cost you 3 or 4 squaddies. And players who are on the ball will bail out of the building and mash Retreat once your flamethrower gets in close. But clearing a troublesome MG nest out is worth that cost even without the kill.

If you dont have a flamethrower handy, getting a squad up to the walls of the building makes a fair substitute.

For great justice, do both.

[Woogie]

if your AT are getting chewed up by the ostwind then you are placing them far too close together... its the same with your infantry... spread them out

If i see a group of panzers and ostwinds coming at me ill move my men to the rear artillery there backside and use my tanks to destroy there ostwinds then rush my infantry once the coast is clear..

Ill happily sacrifice a few tanks to there tanks to take down there Anti-infantry stuff so i can bring my rangers/riflemen in to reak havok upon there tanks... which if done correctly wont be able to retreat as they have a artillery strike on there arse...

The crocodile is only good at clearing out units garrisioned in a building but then anyone with half a brain will retreat there men the moment that thing appears...

Engineers with flamethrowers are the "I WIN" button of early game they take down near enough everything bar a sniper... there crazy... its even funnier when they explode hehe... but if you can clear a building with a engineer sniper (allies only here) and they retreat there men... just place a demo charge on the building and take the area...

if they retake it and regarrison there men.. just blow the building then move in and retake the area yourself, its easy its cost effective and it saves the lives of your men

[TNT]

flaaaaamethrowers, TNT.

Ally players can also go MG-centric if they build a Weapon Support Center first instead of a Barracks.

Just realized while playing a game, thats not true. Support centers cost 15-20 fuel, which is scare early game. Axis can make MGs right off the bat.

Someone set us up the bomb!


After another few games (one playing as axis and the other allies), all where flakpanzers were involved, they are not as OP as I thought. Large masses of anti-tank guns can still slaughter them, though they take out infantry in seconds. A hike in fuel price, maybe to 80-100, would be good... Also, making the croc 380 MP/80 Fuel would help, seeing as it sucks.

[Bentguru]

80-100 fuel would make them have the same cost as a Panzer IV, which is too much imo. something around 60 or so should work fine.

[Demon_Eyes]

I would have to agree there, 60 or maybe 65 would be a good fuel price for it, somewhere between the current 40 fuel and the fuel cost of a panzer IV.

[Oryhara]

@TNT: You DO NOT need a barracks to build a Weapons Support Center. Just use the fuel you would use to build a barracks for the Support Center instead.

[TNT]

@TNT: You DO NOT need a barracks to build a Weapons Support Center. Just use the fuel you would use to build a barracks for the Support Center instead.

I must be stupid, I thought a barracks did not cost any fuel?

[macktheknifeau]

I'll join the "ostwind = overpowered". It rapes way too hard. Move a ranger squad near it, it lasts about 3 seconds before the entire squad is down.

[Reverie]

My flakpanzers never last against paratroops. Recoiless and satchels and numbers VS inaccurate spam gun and pathetic armor. Never knew those airborne kids can be such a nuisance.

I did got off with hits that kill 3 or 4, but it wasn't really enough(he had 5 or 6 squads running in my face, yeah I was being raped :x)

[DoltIncognito]

After further testing of flakpanzers, it really seems they need some tuning. With an officer on fuel, you can easily spam them while holding only 1 fuel point...

Blitz flakpanzer + tiger spam is a very powerful tactic, and there isn't a whole lot allies can do about it. Early game advantage? Doesn't matter, when you only need to hold 1 fuel point with an officer to have more than enough to pump out alot of flaks. And for tiger spam, you don't even use fuel... not to mention the most powerful tank in the game comes with powerful infantry cost for a low cost. The tiger was supposed to be an insanely expensive tank, but when you count in free tigers from blitz, and the powerful infantry that come with it... it is significantly cheaper than a panther. Just spam flaks until you can blitz tiger, then press blitz + tiger whenever it is up. Enjoy running over everything in your path!

I think the damage should be tuned a little bit, and it certainly needs a price increase. Why is the most powerful anti infantry unit in the game so cheap?

And I think the tiger needs a fuel cost, at least. Maybe 100 or so. Why is the (historically) most expensive tank so cheap?

[macktheknifeau]

One thing. Why do axis get manpower blitz? It does not seem to make sense to me. Taking away blitz (give it to allied inf tree imo) and increasing the tiger cost a bit (add some fuel) will go a long way to balancing out late game axis.

[DatonKallandor]

One thing. Why do axis get manpower blitz? It does not seem to make sense to me. Taking away blitz (give it to allied inf tree imo) and increasing the tiger cost a bit (add some fuel) will go a long way to balancing out late game axis.

Of course! Besides, Axis have guns, which is highly unfair. They should be given to Allies. Not to mention artillery - Allies should be the only one's having that.


Daton

[n0z3k1ll3r]

Careful Daton, you're dripping sarcasm everywhere.

Axis get the Manpower Blitz to represent the semimobilised economy used by the Blitzkrieg during the early part of the war I believe.

[DatonKallandor]

Not to mention Manpower Blitz has a penalty attached to it, unlike, say Supply Drop which is FREE.


Daton

[Starfisher]

And gives you nothing approaching the same bonus. Manpower blitz allows a Tiger to come on the field, which is huge. Supply drop allows 75% of a strafing run, or one recoiless rifle, or two flamethrowers. Oh, and 40 fuel, which is ALMOST enough for 3/4 of a tank.

That said, the precondition used against the manpower blitz is misleading. You won't be able to just let yourself be annihilated while controlling a single fuel point, then spam Flak for the win. If the other guy controls the map, he'll make shermans and m10s, which will easily counter the flak. You'll never get to where you can just get a tiger with a flak swarm.

In all seriousness, saying, "Well a lot of unit X when combined with Y is unbeatable!" is not very honest. Yeah, but why does he have a lot of unit X? Because he was beating you already? Ah. Yeah. There's the problem.

In an evenly contested 1v1, the only thing I've ever seen swarms of were infantry. There have never been more than a few tanks out at a time, because both the other guy and I were so busy trying to stay alive and GET to tanks that we had to spend our manpower on lesser units. And if the other guy had saved up to get to Panzer Command and a Flakpanzer, I would have marched right up to his base and had a few M10s and/or shermans to kill him. If he fights me off early game, and holds the map long enough to produce Flaks, well, I'm in for it, but that appears to be how it is balanced.

[Bentguru]

To be honest I'm beginning to think that the manpower blitz does make getting tigers a little to easy to get, maybe up the ability cost for tigers by 200MP or so, because the tiger and it's attached ST squad is sure as hell going to keep the ally busy until you can use manpower blitz again.

[DatonKallandor]

Lets compare Blitz and Supply Drop:

Supply Drop - cost 0, free fuel and ammo, 2 free heavy weapons.

Blitz - cost 150(?) ammo, free manpower, stops fuel and ammo income.

It's obivous which one is better.


Daton

[macktheknifeau]

Blitz only stops (reduces) manpower for the next 3 mins. Not fuel. Not ammo (unless I'm mislead by the wording of the ability).

And it's 200 ammo iirc.

Plus you have ignored the most important effects of manpower blitz:

The ability to raise 3 lower units at once, 2 or 3 medium units at once, or get a Tiger or Panther (and a inf squad or a light vehicle). AND it saves TIME. The most precious resource of all. Instead of waiting 4 or 5 minutes to get enough regular manpower to get a tiger and stormtroops without building anything else, you get it instantly.

[DatonKallandor]

At the cost of 200 ammo and your economy.


Daton

[Starfisher]

Supply drop grants 100 munitions and 40 fuel, an unmanned HMG and unmanned mortar. In order to staff the HMG and mortar, you have to give up an infantry squad, which late game tends to be a bad trade. You need sticky bombs more than you need a mortar or a machinegune.

Manpower blitz costs 200 munitions and grants 900 manpower. It greatly reduces manpower income for three minutes (the same recharge time for the supply drop).

You're right - just looking at the abilities themselves, supply is much better. But that's foolish. In order to see which one is more useful, you have to look at what you can do with them.

Manpower grants you the ability to click and get a Tiger and a Sturm squad. Supply drop grants you the ability to click and get some munitions and fuel. A Tiger and a Sturm squad at a click is incredibly powerful, whereas 100 munitions is enough for a recoiless rifle, or two flamethrowers, or a few stickybombs. The 40 fuel doesn't really matter, because most Allied players have massive fuel surpluses anyway. The extra weaponry doesn't matter, because late game when you get this ability you need AT far more than you need a mortar, and you probably have a machine gun squad lying around from the early game anyway.

So, when you really look at them, these abilities are pretty balanced. I can get my 900 manpower, Tiger and Sturm squad to supplement whatever troops I already have, while my enemy can get their supply drop for the munitions necessary to sticky bomb the Tiger. Balance!