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ground zero didnt you know that during them teleporting they shot? they shot during them teleporting the whole time so the are alsways doing damage.
and 1 group of termies tieing up 4 groups of men? ok then if this actually happens the termies should die quick as there would be 2 terms per squad of infantry.
Not the case however, the Terminators are tying up, and will chase each squad as they dance away. Neither side will die or lose, but its the tying up/delaying that counts.
I don't even see why this is up for debate - I've been saying that nobs need a tier3 global klaw upgrade for a year and half now. tier2 nobs are not viable in tier3/4, they also needs some form of shooty,non-ff backup...which is teir2 trukks I guess...
Ork Tier Structure:
Pros
logical upgrades
smooth scaling from tier1 to 2, and 2 to 3
Cons
tapers off at in tier3 (units stop competitively scaling)
"AT > PKnobs combatwise"
For melee yes they are.
"AT > PKnobs mobilitywise"
Still again no I must disagree Nobs are MUCH better than AT’s for mobility, at’s have the ability to get somewheres once then they need to walk super slow every where else with only ONE vehicle that can transport them and that being a T4 vehicle where as Nobs ALWAYS walk faster can get in to vehicles from T3(?) onwards.
"AT > Pknobs timewise (no, you can and will not have large number of nobs sitting around since tier 2)"
You don’t need to start with 36 nobs to compete with AT’s you would find that if you start with TWO nob squads then the build time will be more balanced.
"Do remember that the range damage is insignificant, it is simply there to make up for their awful pathing due to base size, so they can still do some damage as they're running about like fools."
Unless I am reading the charts wrong they do 5.64 to heavy high before shoota upgrade and 15 DPS afterwards, that’s not really small at all. With that much DPS they should not be as good they should die to an AT squad but with out it they should be able to compete cost / effect and time / effect but not necessarily unit to unit because Orcs are a mass attack force.
Though I admit that I dont know anything about Nob pathing at all aside from what I have seen.
"not with deepstrike and teleport"
I was with you to here, AT’s and terms walk REAL slow DS and port is needed to make up for their ponderous gate. AT’s have some nice options but overall they are the worst unit for mobility.
Along with the option I mentioned earilyer mabey an option to upgrade Nobs to a melee off hand_global and cheep fast claw main makeing ranged damage = zero or instead of a melee option an option to increase there range damage with a big gun of some type also at a low cost.
Not realy. Once you've used your terminators just delete them and deepstrike the next squad in the que. It's quite feasable.I was with you to here, AT’s and terms walk REAL slow DS and port is needed to make up for their ponderous gate. AT’s have some nice options but overall they are the worst unit for mobility.
something you should try:
If you did the same tests with same ATs but several small squads of nobs with klaws. the results could change drastically due to the mob. While 8 termies are running after 4 nobs in a horde, the rest of the hoard is beating on them.
nobz are slow to.Still again no I must disagree Nobs are MUCH better than AT’s for mobility, at’s have the ability to get somewheres once then they need to walk super slow every where else with only ONE vehicle that can transport them and that being a T4 vehicle where as Nobs ALWAYS walk faster can get in to vehicles from T3(?) onwards.
AT's can deepstrike, I rarely ever see a mob of AT's lumbering across the entire map.
#58
i've also seen teleport on some occasions when the guy was tight on cash
orks have nothing like that, other than a big mek teleport which can only move one squad once
the pathing still suck so trukk transports are out of the question also
Nobs may be slow but I still think that AT's are slower until I see some numbers showing contrary. Trucks may suck but walking with a slow unit sucks more. And deleting a unit and makeing it over takes time and wastes a lot of req and power.
good work applies & nerdinheimer. Keep it up.
Heres hoping for a better tier 3 ork in true ork stompy style.
they hardly ever walk, only DS then a few steps to your enemies base.Nobs may be slow but I still think that AT's are slower until I see some numbers showing contrary. Trucks may suck but walking with a slow unit sucks more.
@ choppa: thanks
@ Sleeper
You are reading the charts wrong.
ATs are more mobile that Nobz. Obviously so, FFS. Any claim to the contrary is just f*cking stupid and anyone who thought about it for 3 seconds would know it. How about some intelligent discussion of the facts rather than 'protect my favourite race' type BS.
READ MY LIPS: I am not in favour of Orks becoming OP. I would hate the idea. I like being one of teh fewer ork players and it makes my victories all the more sweet. But ATM the disparities are absurd. It's not making the game more fun for anyone.
Not sure how you mean Priests are harder to get than claws. For Ogryns you need an independent building making. Then a single, different, independent building making a single Priest at a time. You are limited to 3 Priests. Claws take 15 seconds. Priests take 40. 3 priests takes 120 seconds. 3 nob squads on overwatch can get 8 claws each or 24 claws total by the time the priests are all out. Claws are more expensive and that's the only thing that's harder. But this is the HQ that makes priests and also needs to make psykers (for AV), commies, assassin.Klawed Nobz are a much bigger pain in the ass to get than Ogryns with Priests. You will also note I went with a Nob leader rather than attached Dok because Priests are way better than Doks in terms of combat ability and it would have given an unfair advantage to the Ogryns. And don't forget about reinforcement either, we didn't include that, nor did we try any kind of 'for cost' comparrisons which obviously would have resulted in slaughtered nobz.
And I get annoyed with these comparisons because they always come up with IG. Priests aren't an Ogryn squad. They aren't a Kasrkin squad either. They are commanders. How come I never see a Warboss + Nob comparison with an Ogryn + Priest? They are each independent items. For some reason no one includes Apoths + SM in shoot outs, but every single IG comparison, there is a Priest. Those 3 guys are awful busy showing up to every matchup, their schedules must be full.
Priest gives 100 health, 33% speed, 50% dmg, 400 morale.
Bonehead gives 250 morale, 150 health.
Like I said, do the comparisons with no commanders.
Duke Rustfield, you know perfectly well that Ogyrns with Priests are easier to attain than Nobz with Klawz, so 3 squads would get their 8 Klawz in 120 seconds. That's the same as your three priests - and that's with me taking the best possible situation for Nobz... that they're all just sitting there ready to be upgraded... iirc i's a good 60 seconds to make the unit and reinforce it. Plus Klawz are MUCH more expensive. Ergo: Klawz are harder to get.
Obviously a warboss would thrash a priest, but an assassin would thrash a warboss. Not all heroes are created equally and you know it. Please stop making disengenous arguments.
[EDIT - Okay, sorry Duke - I got a bit grumpy: I know where you're coming from with that. I think MANZ are actually going to make the biggest difference though to the Melee matchups anyway. We will lab some of that. We'll also post the results.
I hope it doesn't seem as if I'm just trying to get some silly buff for Orks through BS. I'm not. It's jsut that there's things int he game I have observed, and a bit of a myth surrounding the power of PKNobz. I'm trying to prove it as objectively as I can]
@ dust, during our tests I always had ogryns w/ priests far before nerdimheiemer got his nobz w/claws
you get ONE damn warboss. IG can get countless heroes, priests are one of them.How come I never see a Warboss + Nob comparison with an Ogryn + Priest
There are enough heroes in the IG army to give every squad one.
Orks get 2.
doks are not heroes they are healers.
If you could get 3 warbosses then I could see your point, but the thing is, you can't.
btw, a pk nob squad+warboss costs:1075/420(not totally sure about how much power)but your looking at an extremely high price for that one unit when in comparison to a ogryn+priest combo.
and forget about price?Like I said, do the comparisons with no commanders.
If it truely is a fact then back it up and show it dont talk down your nose at me saying I am blabbing BS when you can not show proof yourself. If you can not and all you have is what you "think" then you dont have much because I think different and I have though about it 3 seconds. Its nice to be able to say you can just DS there but that only works one way never back to your base or to the next target.ATs are more mobile that Nobz. Obviously so, FFS. Any claim to the contrary is just f*cking stupid and anyone who thought about it for 3 seconds would know it. How about some intelligent discussion of the facts rather than 'protect my favourite race' type BS.
Just because I see things differently does not make me be "protecting" my fav race any more than you would be trying to give orcs an easy time. We see balance different at least on some issues though not all.
Lets lab it so we can know for sure, I will play orc and you can play SM and we will race to differnt areas on the map and see who wins.
They aren't harder to get, just more expensive. And you're quoting the time it takes to make a Nob squad, it's not like Ogryn's grow on trees. You need to make those as well. The time requirements are close to similar, it's just that the IG player is more likely to have multiple IC's because that controls his cap and the Ork player will likely have 1 BH.Duke Rustfield, you know perfectly well that Ogyrns with Priests are easier to attain than Nobz with Klawz, so 3 squads would get their 8 Klawz in 120 seconds. That's the same as your three priests - and that's with me taking the best possible situation for Nobz... that they're all just sitting there ready to be upgraded... iirc i's a good 60 seconds to make the unit and reinforce it.
Fair enough. Again, I think claws could use a time/cost decrease -- just not a global. I'm also just tired of the myth that Priests are always attached everywhere. When the game starts getting ugly, you don't have time to get boneheads (just like you don't have time to get claws) because they take too long. And you can't always get a priest on them.It's jsut that there's things int he game I have observed, and a bit of a myth surrounding the power of PKNobz. I'm trying to prove it as objectively as I can
1 Warboss. 3 Priests. That's far from countless unless you're counting them dying.you get ONE damn warboss. IG can get countless heroes, priests are one of them.
Funny, they can spot stealthers and priests can't. It's irrelevant what you call them, they aren't nobs and this is a comparison of nobs and ogryns.doks are not heroes they are healers.
My point is you're comparing 4 completely separate unit types and saying they are 2. Ogryns are Ogryns. They have med_monster armor, x health, x dps, etc. Priests are not Ogryns. They come at a different tier. They are commanders. They in no way shape or form have to be attached to Ogryns and there's always a solid chance they won't be when you see an Og squad.
Funny, they can spot stealthers and priests can't. It's irrelevant what you call them, they aren't nobs and this is a comparison of nobs and ogryns.
My point is you're comparing 4 completely separate unit types and saying they are 2. Ogryns are Ogryns. They have med_monster armor, x health, x dps, etc. Priests are not Ogryns. They come at a different tier. They are commanders. They in no way shape or form have to be attached to Ogryns and there's always a solid chance they won't be when you see an Og squad.
Theres a solid chance they will be attached also. You seemed to ignore the massive price tag the nobz have to.
priest+ogryns cost MUCH cheaper than PK nobz, yet theres a 50% chance they will win(and thats without useing the invulnerability option)
so if you want a fair comparison, 2 ogryn squads+priest vs 1 pk nobz squad. I wonder who's going to win eh? Thats a relatively even price comparison to.
@ Duke
We're gonna do another lab tomorrow. And we'll put some stuff out there for closer analysis. Priest survival time will be interesting. I think we've all put our best arguments forward now, so there's not much point in bickering about it.
I will say this though, the Labs prove priested Ogryns stand up to Nobz with Klawz. When there's no priest, Nobz with Klawz pretty much thrash the Ogryns silly. Without Klawz, I'm willing to bet Ogryns beat Nobz tho. Other leaders... it's kinda hard to tell - the assassin factor is hard to take into account. As is the value of priest ability vs dok ability. I think it perhaps comes out about evenish... though MANZ are alwyas a big factor, also if the assassoin can be spotted and tied up...
ATs kick the asses of Nobz with Klawz. We re-did the 16 v 16 and the ATs won convincingly again, so it looks like the numbers were right the first time, but Ork leaders make up for that quite a bit. Cost/reinforcement factors aside of course
We just labbed PSMs and the results are prtty much what you'd expect - Ork Morale Immunity kept orks alive, but the full cap with leaders battle was interesting - PSMs and Chaos Heroes faired surprisingly well. Anyway, I'll write it up tomorrow. I'll also redo the IG stuff and post it so people can see for themselves.
[EDIT - actually I just went and looked at the replay properly and it turns out that PSMs actually pretty much beat PKNobz... even with nob morale immunity, but if you include the pop cap issue. 30 PK Nobz beat 30 PSMs, but 30 PSMs beat 25 Nobz. Youch. No wonder SM players complaining about them so much and value their WWs so highly...
Although, I will note that, once again, Ork Leaders come to the rescue... but even so PSMs dish out the damage - even excluding their huge movement and spammability and base bashing ability...
My conclusion after viewing the results, esp the final battle with max cap of nobz + leaders vs max cap of PSM + leaders is that even if Nobz had an immediate tier 3 global upgrade of Klawz they would still be on par with PSMs army vs army... and that's excluding base bashing ability and speed of PSMs and any scaling nobz from tier 2 of course... I was pretty surprised, tbh
Anyway, more to come on that later...]
Whether anyone wants to say okay, global upgrade I don't care. Personally, I'm against it too. A more choppy upgrade and Klawz cost/reinforce time change a bit and only add to building/AV damage is my vote, as I've said...
It's all kind of pointless becasue it seems elite units will get a cap in DC anyway, and it seems most things are going to change quite a bit. According to Apples, on the DC demo, ATs are getting 600HP, so that's hige right there. I think we can assume Nobz and PSMs will be effected similarly.
So anyway, this labs about a year and a half too late
Good to at least proove we weren't talking out our asses the whole time tho...
kk Sleeper, sorry for flaming you a bit. As I said - I was getting a bit grumpy. But anyway - I guess people can decide for themselves about whether Nobz or ATs are more mobile. But I think if we did a poll, we'd find that you wouldn't get terribly many people agreeing with you.If it truely is a fact then back it up and show it dont talk down your nose at me saying I am blabbing BS when you can not show proof yourself. If you can not and all you have is what you "think" then you dont have much because I think different and I have though about it 3 seconds. Its nice to be able to say you can just DS there but that only works one way never back to your base or to the next target.
Last edited by Nerdinheimer; 2nd Sep 06 at 7:42 AM.
Fact is, AT's can teleport twice, move at roughly the same speed of Nobz, (Minus Waargh effect) and can deepstrike.kk Sleeper, sorry for flaming you a bit. As I said - I was getting a bit grumpy. But anyway - I guess people can decide for themselves about whether Nobz or ATs are more mobile. But I think if we did a poll, we'd find that you wouldn't get terribly many people agreeing with you.
If a SM player wanted to, for less cost than replacing 5 members, he could delete that squad and rebuild it, which im sure he will already have queued up ready to pop out of his several Chapel Barracks, and deepstrike them.
If an Ork player wished to do the same, the Unit takes roughly 2mins to get Klawz, and then run (slowly) to the fight location.
There is obviously no Comparison - ATs are cheaper, geared up for smashin' as soon as they are available, and can go anywhere on the battlefield (very big help on larger maps).
Regards to the Ogryns arguments, Ogryns last a while and aren't the only t3 unit that the IG can have - whilst the Ogryn tie up the Nobz for a while, there can easily be Basilisks, LR's and Kasrkin annihilating those Nobz.
Nobz -are- the mainstay Ork T3 army.
It's all kind of pointless becasue it seems elite units will get a cap in DC anyway, and it seems most things are going to change quite a bit. According to Apples, on the DC demo, ATs are getting 600HP, so that's hige right there. I think we can assume Nobz and PSMs will be effected similarly
Nah. In the 2nd mission of the demo, most of the SM units have huge HP nerfs. AT have 600 hps, Tacs have 300 (But you get full heavy bolter squads) Dreads lose a 1,000-odd HPs, Whirlwinds lose 700 hps, ect.
But in the first mission (skirmish map) none of these nerfs apply. The SM just got hugely nerfed in the demo because it's a late game mission and the Tau only get half their units.
aha. thanks for the confirmation.
Yeah, I know the AT mobility argument is ridiculous, but I'm trying to be diplomatic.
#73
Actually there are several reasons why Ogryns with priests are easier to get than power clawed nobz:They aren't harder to get, just more expensive. And you're quoting the time it takes to make a Nob squad, it's not like Ogryn's grow on trees. You need to make those as well. The time requirements are close to similar, it's just that the IG player is more likely to have multiple IC's because that controls his cap and the Ork player will likely have 1 BH.
1. The IG player WILL have multiple Infantry Commands, as you pointed out. This means multiple Ogryn squads building at the same time
2. Ogryns and Priests are built from different buildings. You mentioned this, of course, but you didn't point out that this means the Ogryns and Priests can be built at the same time. You cannot build a nob and a powerclaw at the same time
3. Ogryn squads reinforce to full strength much faster than nobz
4. Ogryns are much much cheaper than nobz
White_Pointer
"Fact is, AT's can teleport twice, move at roughly the same speed of Nobz, (Minus Waargh effect) and can deepstrike. "
Teleport is only a bit and I mean a little bit faster than teleporting. The only real major part to it is you can go over obsticales.
"If a SM player wanted to, for less cost than replacing 5 members, he could delete that squad and rebuild it, which im sure he will already have queued up ready to pop out of his several Chapel Barracks, and deepstrike them."
Yes a SM player could do that if he wanted to waste 400/200 and wait till they are ready but if he did that they are not reaily mobile. Thats compareing building a new squad and not moveing the one that is up. If you have lots of req mabey it is an option but most games your not gona have the req to throw away.
"There is obviously no Comparison - ATs are cheaper, geared up for smashin' as soon as they are available, and can go anywhere on the battlefield (very big help on larger maps)."
I agree on all of that but none of that has anything to do with mobility.
You also forget to mention that Nobs canuse trucks while only one squad of termis can mount a vehicle. On a large map you would see the differance, a squad of termis could likely DS to the other side of the map and start walking back to thier base while orcs could loaded in trucks would be able to drive to the same place and then back to thier base.
You also forget to mention that Nobs canuse trucks while only one squad of termis can mount a vehicle. On a large map you would see the differance, a squad of termis could likely DS to the other side of the map and start walking back to thier base while orcs could loaded in trucks would be able to drive to the same place and then back to thier base.
Valid Point, for Nobz to move faster, they need to use up all their vehicle cap too. Which is another luxury SM's don't need to do. So not only time and cost for Nobz w/ Klawz, but also time and cost for 6-10 Trukks, not to mention the rebuild time if they get destroyed in combat, thus leaving the Orks stranded.
the option to move a LOT faster is not negative. and you generaly will not have a full cap of nobs so trucks are not that bad. nice try though GZ
It wasn't a try, it has been proven time and time again, and hopefully will finally be rectified with DC, where *hopefully* Nobz will finally ascend to their rightful place ontop of the CC ladder.nice try though GZ
I don't think Ork units should be the best at CC in terms of damage they do, but rather the best at CC tactics. Kind of like, ATs beat Nob Squads man-for-man, but will eventually lose due to sheer numbers.
Whilst this is just an opinion, i would like to point out that AT's beat Nob Squads man for man atm, regardless of reinforcing, and this is where the problem lies.I don't think Ork units should be the best at CC in terms of damage they do, but rather the best at CC tactics. Kind of like, ATs beat Nob Squads man-for-man, but will eventually lose due to sheer numbers.
Furthermore, with reinforcing, AT's beat them, and also they don't require further upgrades to be combat effective.
Deepstrike means they can transverse the largest map the game can offer almost instantenously. Teleport allows you to bypass enemy melee units to ranged."Fact is, AT's can teleport twice, move at roughly the same speed of Nobz, (Minus Waargh effect) and can deepstrike. "
Teleport is only a bit and I mean a little bit faster than teleporting. The only real major part to it is you can go over obsticales.
It's a small price to pay for being able to again, almost instantenously move fresh troops onto the battlefield at any point you desire. Which basically doubles, as an expensive, but very effective teleport."If a SM player wanted to, for less cost than replacing 5 members, he could delete that squad and rebuild it, which im sure he will already have queued up ready to pop out of his several Chapel Barracks, and deepstrike them."
Yes a SM player could do that if he wanted to waste 400/200 and wait till they are ready but if he did that they are not reaily mobile. Thats compareing building a new squad and not moveing the one that is up. If you have lots of req mabey it is an option but most games your not gona have the req to throw away.
Wrong. What he talks about is logistics, and that has EVERYTHING to do with mobility. A mobile army is an army that can project itself to any point in minimal time and with reasonable cost. Assault Termies with the Deepstrike advantage fit that description PERFECTLY. Even if "moving" the already placed troops to any point on the map is deletion and using an already built queved squad."There is obviously no Comparison - ATs are cheaper, geared up for smashin' as soon as they are available, and can go anywhere on the battlefield (very big help on larger maps)."
I agree on all of that but none of that has anything to do with mobility.
Several things wrong with this assumption.You also forget to mention that Nobs canuse trucks while only one squad of termis can mount a vehicle. On a large map you would see the differance, a squad of termis could likely DS to the other side of the map and start walking back to thier base while orcs could loaded in trucks would be able to drive to the same place and then back to thier base.
First of all, there is no reason for the assault termies to go back to base. If the base is in danger, deletion and popping queved AT at base will have far greater chance of saving it then a bunch of Nob squads happily running home on PoS vehicles. And no, you CANNOT do the same with nobs. They come out without claws, I.E. at way, way less then full strength then AT will be.
Plus, the vehile cap you wasted on orc transports is the vehicle cap Space Marines are more then HAPPY to oblige in form of Dreadnoughts rippping your base to shreds or Preds ripping whatever you have left to shreds.
Please, understand that mobility doesn't just mean running speed. It means logistics more then anything else. And Assault Termies beat the living shit out of Nobs logistics wise and ability wise.
It does not, it means the ability to move NOTHING MORE. your presumeing that SM have unlimited amounts of req and power to compensate for thier super slow units, they do not they get the same rate as everyone.Please, understand that mobility doesn't just mean running speed. It means logistics more then anything else.
"Teleport allows you to bypass enemy melee units to ranged."
Man what you smokeing? Teleport does not reaily give you that advantage, it lets you kneel at one spot waiting to teleport while other melee get a few free wacks at you and then once you land to get eatten up as you pop up in the middle of some guys army.
It does help but if used as you sudgest then you will get them dead fast.
Let alone if you kill your terms and try to remake them in the middle of a fight while someone is eatting your base ... man thats retarded. How you gona kill a bunch of reinforced and upgraded troops with just 4 AT's every 60 seconds? Not gona happen you woulod have much better chance of suvriveing if you wasted the time and walked them back.
ok..so you buy trukks and fill your vehicle pop cap up so you can't get looteds(and looteds suck btw, but you need them)It does not, it means the ability to move NOTHING MORE. your presumeing that SM have unlimited amounts of req and power to compensate for thier super slow units, they do not they get the same rate as everyone.
BTW, teleporting/DS is an extreme form of mobility. Teleportation is like lightspeed so I've heard.
why walk when you can DS and skip the walking altogether. AT's are probably the most mobile infantry in the game(warpspiders are a close second)hence why AT's are always the first to be in someones base, often before psm even.
Terminator's teleport is very useful if used in right situation (and there are surprisingly many 'right' situations to use teleport ability)
By the way, is it impossible to transport nobs squads via turkks? I think only suiqq can transport nobs.
Who knows......
Trukks can carry Nobz as well as the Squiggoth.
Being is SM is more cost effective than an Ork, you cannot have your Vehicle or Infantry Cap taken away with a 1250 light building being destroyed with 3 seconds of missile fire or 8 seconds of bolter fire from 2 squads.It does not, it means the ability to move NOTHING MORE. your presumeing that SM have unlimited amounts of req and power to compensate for thier super slow units, they do not they get the same rate as everyone.
"Teleport allows you to bypass enemy melee units to ranged."
Man what you smokeing? Teleport does not reaily give you that advantage, it lets you kneel at one spot waiting to teleport while other melee get a few free wacks at you and then once you land to get eatten up as you pop up in the middle of some guys army.
It is often the case that to be successful as Orks you need to build triple the Banners you need to function as an army because once a single OS goes off on them, or a vehicle stumbles upon them, you can quite quickly be back to 15/15 0/0 cap. (HUGE problem when you are in combat - a game today i had full cap of Nobz mounted in 8 trukks with a killa kan for defense, attacked a full SM cap of AT's. Whilst i was fighting the ATs, with my army, the SM's Dread spam hit my base, taking out all my Banners, leaving me with no Ork Resource/cap to bulk out/recover my losses).
Marines one off 150 for 7 cap per Inf and Veh is a huge bonus as it cannot be removed whereas Orks 165 paper banner is a major downfall of an already 'danced to death' race.
So for each 'banner' that you need not buy as a SM player you can add it to your big cheesy pool of 'spare resources' to Tech to T4, get more Assault Terms, or reinforce those squads you have, which once again, go to let Space Marines defeat Ork Nobz in CC with no Micro Necessary at all.
To sum all of it up - Orks are a very fragile race even at T4, unlike Eldar who lose their fragility when they get tougher units ALONGSIDE cloaked webway gates which saves them from the same trouble as i mentioned about losing cap midfight.
Sleeper, frankly I'm sick of reading your rubbish. You're obviously never going to be convinced of anything no matter how logical the oppossing arguments, or how obviously ridiculous your own points are. I'll be skipping your entries from now on, as I'm sure will most other sensible thinking people.
[Edited to remove more flamingSorry]
Last edited by Nerdinheimer; 3rd Sep 06 at 2:51 AM.
Thats bull shit Nerdinheimer! You can not provide proof even when you test something and prove me wrong you can not show your proof you ask me to take your word for it.
I eat crow real nice whe nI am wrong but simply you have not proved anything aside from teh fact that you can flame and toss out insults.
If you have a replay then bring it if not then I dont care if you ignore me because your spamming gibrish. Your adicted to Orcs and want them to be the number one race because they are the race you like.
we did prove it, we tried it out. I think we do have a replay to, if you don't mind watching for an hour.Thats bull shit Nerdinheimer! You can not provide proof even when you test something and prove me wrong you can not show your proof you ask me to take your word for it.
oh and about the orks being the best race thing, you sound like a traditional SM fanboy trying to keep his favourite race IMBA.
Orks are the weakest race in tier 3/4 and you seem to want to keep it that way.
I'll see if I can tape a short vid with fraps next time we test.
peace
Just ignore him, Apples. He;s not talking about the Kanz test. He's talking about AT mobility. Obviously, ATs are more mobile than Nobz. It doesn't need to be labbed, and I don't see how it really could be anyway. The whole discussion is stupid. End of story.
Last edited by Nerdinheimer; 2nd Sep 06 at 9:57 PM.
No I know they are the weakest race but I dont think that AT port makes up for speed differance real or immanged.Orks are the weakest race in tier 3/4 and you seem to want to keep it that way.
Nerd, go fuck yourself if you dont have anything worth reading to say.
#90
Nerdinheimer and The_sleeper1, take a moment to read the warnings you just got and decide how you want to carry on arguing your points.
Now, I honestly can't see how Assault Terminators deepstriking straight into where they are needed is less mobile than walking there from across the map. Granted that if your full pop of termies is stuck on the other side of the map (in what is usually called "the smoldering ruins of other guy's base"), it might take a while to walk back but teleporting them over any obstacles is a lot easier than stuffing your full pop of Nobs into Trukks and watching them path-hell their way through narrow passages in a single line and then getting them out again.
Neither Nobs or ATs are not quite PSM when it comes to mobility, but between the two, I'd say ATs are the more mobile unit by far.
When you only need to DS to someones base then they are surely very mobil but thats not the only thing that needs to be done ever. Often you need to fight a few battles on the way to your enemies base and that makes walking speed important.
Since when do ATs fight their way to an enemy base?
:new: RESULTS FOR PSMs ARE UP
I'll post them here too:
Nobz vs PSMs
As you would expect Basic Nobz got beat pretty bad. With anything below 15 Nobz, they pretty much instantly broke and then they got mopped up, all the PSMs still on green. It was actually pretty hard to get them into battle without breaking, even when PSMs and Nobz run straight at each other
With 30 v 30 basic Nobz:
=PSMs lost 5 while killing the Nobz. The 25 that were left were pretty much all on red - but not deep red. There were a few yellows too , but mainly red. Hooray, I thought. Quite a good result
30 v 30 PKNobz
= the Nobz won convincingly; 20 left, all pretty much on green.
But then we decided to one that took pop cap into account, and the results were pretty surprising:
25 PKNobz, vs 30 PSMs
= PSMs Won! 8 PSMs left, with an average of 1/2 health left. So outnumbersing is the big difference, and this, it seems is where PSMs get their power (well, aside form the massive speed, small base size and insta-break flamer of course
But then not quite all is lost for Orks... testing heroes:
4MANZ and 20 PKNobz, vs 30 PSMs (with reinforce on)
= Orks Win! Only 1 MAN was left with (in deep red), but Nobz have 15 PKNobz at the end, and 4 basic Nobz. So woot for the MANZ! I don't think reinforce made much difference here though, I suspect the outcome would have been the same, except possibly MANZ would have more health and there would be no reinforced Nobz.
We should probably have done some reinforcing tests, but the results are fairly obvious I think...
Anyway: we decided to go with a full pop cap and all leaders + abilities test. The orks won with good dok micro and lost without it, basically. (this is without any reinforce, though)
The remains of the ork army with the good dok micro were:
16 Nobz, 1/2 HP on average
2 Doks
3 Manz
Warboss
Big Mek
(I'll post the results without usung leader abilites a bit later... I have to go back and look at the replay)
So anyway... the PKNobz make a decent account for themselves because of leaders and morale immunity... but once again, I think that if you put reinforcment, Preds and Looted Lemans into the equation orks would be down the crapper
My 2 cents:
I think it proves that PSMs are pretty OP at the moment... I was really expecting the PKNobz to win easily in a straight up fight, but with the extra spammabilty and smaller pop cap of PSMs, even PKNobz don't have it terribly easy.
The results of no PK Nobz were very interesting, so I think if you're gonna use Nobz to counter PSMs you're probably better to try and outmass him with basic nobz with upgrades rather than try to get PowerKlawz. This may be a viable strat, though once he gets more than 30 or so PSMs it won't work anymore because you'll reach your cap limit and get overwhelmed Also, you better hope you dont lose many banners 'cause that'll kill your reinforce
No wonder Marines love their WWs so much! Without morale immune PSMs wtfpwn anything without taking a scratch. ATs would get decimated.
Last edited by Nerdinheimer; 4th Sep 06 at 1:20 AM.
the "basic nobz" had the first 3 upgrades though^
It wasn't so much the psm's combat ability, it was mostly just the insta-- break which would work good against AT's and ogryns.
The nobz can hold there own against psm, BUT psm were so spammable that im inclined to say I could of wiped out nerdheimers base accordingly(as much of the time I was waiting in the middle while he was building)which really is a huge OP'd advantage for a chaos player(or an ork underpowered).
Almost as soon as 60 psm were killed I had another 60 qued up and ready to go.
hopefully DC will put a hard cap on this type of unit.
peace
Yes, all upgrades were in play.
IMO it's the pop cap that makes all the difference. It's clear from the lab that PSM power is in their numbers...
I think PSMs need to be pegged back to 8 per squad and nerf the flamer in some way so it's not OP vs units without morale immune. This way Orks will tend to win in a straight up fight, but PSMs still have much superior mobility. WWs need to be nerfed right down accordingly.
Then in DC, Orks will get flashgitz, and hopefully Oblits will be a non-relic unit, and all will be good in the world.
[Edit: oh, and look at the reinforcment times too, drop klaw to 5 seconds or so so PSMs still reinforce better, but not THAT much better.
Last edited by Nerdinheimer; 4th Sep 06 at 1:24 AM.
Every time you need to clear units out from around your base or between your base and there base. Your opponent is not gona move so you can get close to DS AT's you need to kill your way there and that means walking your AT's.Since when do ATs fight their way to an enemy base?
No way to melee psm normal like and they close way too fast to range em down.
Or just zip over some infiltrated scouts or a pred or jump over a landspeeder like most people do. I agree with you that attacking the SM base is the only way to stop ATs from annihilating you. The idea that you have to kill everything between your base and the enemy in order to deepstrike isn't true at all.Your opponent is not gona move so you can get close to DS AT's you need to kill your way there and that means walking your AT's.
Look, Sleeper, originally what you said was:
That's clearly not true and this is where the whole tiresome argument started. Now, if you take DS out of it then maybe there's a bit of a debate in:Nobs are MUCH better than AT’s for mobility
'is AT teleport<Nob bad pathing and some extra speed and trukk for transport...'
And the answer to that is: depends on the terrain - if there are any obsticles or a choke point ATs are MUCH better off with teleport... if it's open ground I would say that Nobz would probably get there faster? (but they will get shot up while they move). And any kind of disruprtion either from enemy artillary or enemy units standing in the way (or hell- even your own units) means that ATs will still get there a LOT faster.
Trukks are not a great solution for reasons other people have already outlined.
Anyway, with DS in the formula, Nobz simply have a much harder time getting to where they need to be when they need to be there. That much is obvious.
Ats are more manouvarable. Full stop. end of.
the psm results are interesting but what i think turnt the last battle (with heros) was the fact that chaos have only 2 heros.. and in one big fight one of them sucks (sorc)
Psm are definatly more powerful because of reinforce... every chaos player knows that. try sending 3 units of psm at a equal sized enemy force.. (they dont seem so oped then.)
Its the fact the sac pit is so spamable + small (so you can build loads)
In large FFAs its possible to have 6 sac pits all with psm qued up. Then as soon as your armie is dead you have another 6 units of psm. Auto reinforce all six and then charge. You can replace them stupidly fast.
The reason Nobz lose so badly to other CC units in real game term is that they are less spammable.
Nobs aren't spammable at all. You can't make any units until your excess Waaugh has recovered, which means that you have to wait until your pop count is down to 90 before the hut will even start the long nob recruiting process.
However the advantage is that you get a new squad as soon as a number of nobs have died, so you can loose 2 or three nobs from each squad and you'll be able to get a new squad.
Theoretically (and in practice too sometimes) you can keep your nob numbers up by overwatching nobs at a boyz hut if it's right on the battlefront. I find that the tide of battle can turn if I manage to get a boyz hut up at the battlefront.
#100
I assume that arguement relates to the deepstrike ability? Surely not to the actual walking speed.Ats are more manouvarable. Full stop. end of
I still think the core problem of the whole situation relates to the building damage of these t3 units. All these arguements show that while one may lose to another in certain situations, it all seems relatively close.
The frustration seems to me to be that AT's can DS straight on your base and kill it, or the PSM can run straight in there and do the same. The actual 1v1 figures dont present too much of an issue to me. Unless I am missing something.
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Originally Posted by Maktaka