The War Thread

[Nova]

What right does the media have to deprive me of my coverage of people being slaughtered on the other side of the planet, now I have to read about this plague that is causing chaos in hospitals across Toronto, I guess we didn't have enough fun with that damn Norwalk virus a few weeks ago.

Oh well, aside from this people are in an snit about some comments the U.S. Ambassador made about our support in the war on Iraq. Who needs This Hour Has 22 Minutes when you can watch the House of Commons on CPAC.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by Martian
Yes. But the rest of the US' track record, proving that humanitary reasons are of no concern to the US (or, for that matter, for any other country) raises a big question: why?

And that question has not been answered by the US' government except by forged documents, unfounded accusations, and pure lies.

Now don't come tell me that Saddam is an evil man; i KNOW that. My question is, with the above-mentioned track record in mind, wich clearly shows that his evilness does not matter: why? and why NOW? Why not in 6 months, after the inspections got a real chance?

I'm sorry, I know the thread has moved on, but I had to reply to this and I won't post here again.

Track Record...Schmack Record. U.S. leadership changes drastically every eight years.

The President either consciously, like G.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan, or unconsciously, like Bubba, sets the general tone of society with his leadership style or lack thereof.

For eight years we had one of the most conniving, amoral SOBs ever conceived by mortal flesh running our country. It's a good thing he wasn't too bright.

Dubya, on the other hand, is an example of a true Leader. He will stick to his guns and do his job till the end. France, Germany or the UN be damned. It is his responsibility as the Leader of the most powerful country on Earth to safeguard his people from harm where he may find it.

I now return control of the thread to it's rightful posters and will not return.

[Martian]

Maybe you forget so easily about your track record (except if its positive, like WWII, ofcourse), the rest of the world, and especially the Iraqi people who have some bad memories about the uprising in 1991, doesn't. If you think they do, you're a bit naive. Sorry.

[Harmanoff]

It is his responsibility as the Leader of the most powerful country on Earth to safeguard his people from harm where he may find it.

That's quite amusing. You're trying to make me believe the most powerful country on earth cannot safeguard it's people from harm without bullying an already disarmed and impoverished nation? Give me a break. This whole thing wont make the world even slightly safer for anyone, least of all the average kind spirited Joe sitting in his TV couch in the mid west, enjoying an immensly low risk of being the target of a terrorist attack.

[Starfisher]

For eight years we had one of the most conniving, amoral SOBs ever conceived by mortal flesh running our country. It's a good thing he wasn't too bright.

Dubya, on the other hand, is an example of a true Leader. He will stick to his guns and do his job till the end. France, Germany or the UN be damned. It is his responsibility as the Leader of the most powerful country on Earth to safeguard his people from harm where he may find it.

Sorry, I just had to post that again for sheer hilarity value.

Heh, you capitalize 'leader'. You make him sound like the 'Leader' in some weird cult. Although I guess you could call American politics a cult...

[EchoEffect]

a good thing he wasn't too bright.

Yes god fobid the President be clever. Much better to have a complete moron in charge.

I read today that the US has given the contract to run the Port at Umm Qasr to an American company. Whereas the British want to give the running of it back to the man who ran it before the allies moved in. Which seems like a much more sensible idea.

[Stealth]

I'd say at this point in time, it would be unwise to return control to the Iraqi people "yet". It would almost be as if we went and beat up the bully who was beating up the little guy, and just walked away without helping the little guy up.

The real issue is more of which company is best, and why british/australian/etc companies have been granted few contracts, while U.S. companies have received most.

[Bonnet]

Stealth the reason may be because they are the most capable or their arent that many british/austalian/etc companies that do that. Martian what track record, are we the evil because we saved millons of lives by droping a nuke on Japan (actually two).

[EchoEffect]

are we the evil because we saved millons of lives by droping a nuke on Japan

what

the

fu*k.

[IronHammer]

Not necessarily evil actually, a war-torn Japan having ben invaded by the US and Russia, would have looked alot differant then it does now.
I believe the Japanise had massed quite a number of its cavilian population in its southern area's, and armed them with hand to hand weapons to fend off troops, in any case an invasion of Japan by troops, would have ben far more horrific then dropping two nuclear bombs.

But this is off topic.

[Noir]

Originally posted by IronHammer

I believe the Japanise had massed quite a number of its cavilian population in its southern area's, and armed them with hand to hand weapons to fend off troops, in any case an invasion of Japan by troops, would have ben far more horrific then dropping two nuclear bombs.

Actually the Japanese Government mobilized THE ENTIRE population of Japan,estimates of losses of US forces had they invaded Japan was estimated at 1 million,and we may have had to commit genocide or near genocide on the entire Japanese population.

[IronHammer]

Well yeah they were rather fanatical for their God Emporer. I was not sure if the numbers were th entire pop though.

[Stealth]

And back to the topic...

Zbob, I assure you, the United States isn't the only industrialized country on the planet. It's not that we are "more capable" than any other European nation, just that we aren't sharing the wealth with our allies.

Not that I really care anyways

[IronHammer]

Not that we should share as you say, in the manner of a "redistrebution", as I think your implying. We made that money and no way in hell is it going anyware, it was made by trade, and it will be lost by trade, if it gets lost that is.

Back on Topic plz, this is turning into a bash the US thread again.

[EchoEffect]

Yeah screw the starving people in Africa. Its our money.

[IronHammer]

Oh really, why dont you pay?

[edit] perhaps I sould edit my statment. I believe it is not that we should have to pay period. That it would be a kind thing to fund other countries yes it would, but we cannot fund the would, why should the burden of the world bank be upon the US population?[/edit]

[Bonnet]

:offtopic: The US pays something like 90% of the worlds aid most of whitch goes into the hands of warlords and not the people.
Now back on topic. The war is going well and thier as of so far seem to be less than 100 civillan deaths, not that im discounting but compared to 1.5 million its not to bad.

[Stealth]

A missile hit a mall in Kuwait city. Only a few injuries I believe.

[Bonnet]

Yeah but they think it was a Iraqi missle that missfired.

[Harmanoff]

Let me see now, the U.S pays 90% of the worlds aid? And there have been less than 100 civilian deaths in the current hobby war? Riiight.

[Vaarok]

Anyone else see that thing on NBC about american prisoners? They found shreds of bloody american uniform in an abandoned hospital/HQ/prison, and several cells with strap-down tables with electric leads connected to car batteries. Blood on the tables...

These people not nice. We let them surrender even when they shoot at us afterwards.

[Starfisher]

They've been saying for a while now that the Iraqis most likely executed those first prisoners taken from the maintenence divsion. Especially since the video of the dead soldiers aired showed several of them with bullet wounds in their foreheads.

Anyone else see the 'die-in' in New York today on TV? I wonder if they are imatating the Kurds or the inhabitants of Bagdhad when they decide to block traffic. It sure makes a statement for the anti-war cause when you slow up an ambulance, stop people from going to work and have your leader say on pulbic TV that "Saddam is not benefiting from these protests."

And of course the riots in other cities. Break some windows and save Saddam!

Gah. Protest the old fashioned way, with signs and slogans. Protesting is what made America, but now these people through their 'patriotic' demonstrations have created something different. It's almost saying "We want to change things, but instead of making a thought provoking statement, we're going to make you think we're idiots."

[IronHammer]

Hay guys I hear there's a four to six day stop in the ground assault, must be changing plans or doin somthing important in those 4-6 days. hmmm

Perhaps since Bahgdad isnt going anyware anytime soon, they may be securing the rest of the country before a final assault. Or atleast my midnight speculation machine says so. I'll see what it says in the morning.

[edit] yep, their stopped, maybe because the Guard Units keep comeing out to attack them, so maybe there waiting for Saddam to commit all his reaserves, perhaps to the point that bahgdad will be easy to take.[/edit]

[Bonnet]

Harmanoff check this http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa065.htmllink and this http://netec.wustl.edu/WoPEc/data/Pa...iessp0600.html (download the doc) or this http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRel...o=p&Print=True for the foreign aid. So clearly youre statement is luadable.
On the war aspect there are only 14 teen deaths clamed so far by the Iraqis and those ones are questionable. If there had been more i assure they would have told us (the iraqis).

[Earth-Command]

It is horriable the reports of what the Iraqies are doing to the allied prisoners of war.

But.........................

I watched a report on the ABC 6 months ago about how alot of captured Taliban prisoners were all locked up in prisons in the middle of no where. A load of prisoners on the way to the already full prisons simply dissapeared of the face of the Earth.

The investigating reporter found evidence of mass graves at the site near where the trucks carrying the 2000+ prisoners were ordered to stop and dissapear.

Being pro war I am under no illusion that the Allies have their own methods of extracting information from Iraqies with sensetive information.

I guess what goes around comes around.

When the stakes are so high, the rule book is thrown out the window.

[Harmanoff]

Originally posted by zbobet2012
Harmanoff check this http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa065.htmllink and this http://netec.wustl.edu/WoPEc/data/Pa...iessp0600.html (download the doc) or this http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRel...o=p&Print=True for the foreign aid. So clearly youre statement is luadable.
On the war aspect there are only 14 teen deaths clamed so far by the Iraqis and those ones are questionable. If there had been more i assure they would have told us (the iraqis).

This is slightly confusing.

To start of your first link is broken, i suspect it should be http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa065.html. No need to thank me.
Secondly, what do you mean by saying my statement is clearly 'luadable'?

Dictionary.com suggest you meant laudable. They say it means the following:
laud·a·ble
adj.
Deserving commendation; praiseworthy.

I assume you might have meant my comment was laughable. In both cases your statement becomes rather puzzling given that the links you provide completely destroys your former (silly)argument:

The US pays something like 90% of the worlds aid most of whitch goes into the hands of warlords and not the people. Now back on topic

All those three sites are laden with evidence that the U.S does in fact not provide something like 90% of the worlds aid. Instead they show how the glorious aid programmes have failed miserably and that the U.S gives the lowest percentage of it's GNP to aid of 'all the industrialised nations in the world'. gg

There are a few good quotes:

From globalissues.org: As shown throughout this web site (and hundreds of others) one of the root causes of poverty lies in the powerful nations that have formulated most of the trade and aid policies today, which are more to do with maintaining dependencies on industrialized nations, providing sources of cheap labor and cheaper goods for populations back home and increasing personal wealth, and maintaining power over others in various ways.

from cato.org: Our foreign aid has made life more pleasant and entertaining for government bureaucrats in poor countries. However, it has done little to promote the production of wealth, or to breed political responsibility, or to encourage people to help themselves. American foreign aid usually only strengthens oppressive regimes, allows governments to avoid correcting their mistakes, and bails out bankrupt state-owned enterprises around the world.

Now for your second statement:

The war is going well and thier as of so far seem to be less than 100 civillan deaths, not that im discounting but compared to 1.5 million its not to bad.

A bit more than 100 i'm afraid. Check out http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm. It has an impressive list of sources. The Red Cross says the can only vouch for 14 dead civilians, iraqi health minister says there were 350 dead in one attack. I'm pretty sure the number lies somewhere in between and i'm sure as hell it's more than 100.

So.. i guess the point of this almost MajorFreak-esque post is that i have two questions:
1. What did you mean, Laudable or laughable?
2. In light of all the sources you and I have provided, how is my previous statement either laudable or laughable?

Finally i'm very grateful that you showed me cato.org. It's a great site. I particulary like these two: http://www.cato.org/dailys/03-29-03.html <|> http://www.cato.org/pubs/fpbriefs/fpb-050es.html

[IronHammer]

Oh wait, some of those sources of bodies eventually come from bahgdad, and wait if those numbers are acurate were still about, mabey 1% of the total Saddam has killed in a most brutal fashion.

And wait, but were <purposefuly targeting civilians> Well then we sure as hell are doing a shitty job of killing as many Iraqis regardless, we should just turn the place into glass and be done with it. We do have WMD and its not something you can be squimish in using, otherwise the threat of it is worthless.
About the News, some things you have to read between the lines, they are out for the most part, to get a story wharever it is, those body counts may or may not be acurate, because it comes from Saddam and Bahgdad in some cases, and who wants to infuse the US or war haters with ammo. IMO there just cheap shots really, you cannot fight a bloodless war, there is no such thing.

[EchoEffect]

There is a bit of a cufuffle over here about the PMs statement that two British soldiers were executed. Apparently the army told their familes that they died in combat. So now the PM looks a bit foolish, and looks like he was trying to score propaganda points out of the deaths of Two people. Although if he is wrong, its more likely that he was just that, wrong, rather than deliberatly trying to mislead people.

It must be terrible for the familes of those soldiers, as well as for hte familes of the soldiers that are missing or have been captured. I hope the Red Cross at least is allowed to visit them or something, but maybe I am being to optermistic.

Sort of must be like how the British familes of those held in Camp X ray must feel.

edit: the idea of a bloodless war has been partialy created by the allies, especialy the US, with all the talk of high tech weapons and precision bombs. People seemed to foget that for all the technology of the US and Britain, soldiers still haev to fight on the ground. It seems like everyone reacts with shock when a soldier dies, as if they never expected it. Or as if they never expected the Iraqi's to fight back, as if that is somehow rude of them.

[IronHammer]

Echo, anyone who calls a war "bloodless" while talking of weapons and bombs in the same breath, should not be considerd an expert on the subject.

[Starfisher]

Echo, that's a human defense mechanism. We subconciously do not allow ourselves to contemplate the true horror of war, even when we should know better. Like after WWII, when all the soldiers who had their faces shot off tried to go into public. People would get angry at them, saying that they should stay out of public. No one wants the reality of war shoved on them, especially when they can grasp rosier misconceptions.

[Stewart Ramses]

When a mod tells you not to post in a thread again, and you do, this is what happens. All the time you spent writing your replies... wasted.

[Vaarok]

I'm really kinda nervous regarding the whole arabic world going berserk about this war. Our militaries are starting to get wedged between provoking neighboring nations, and winning the combat part of the war.

By the time we get to Bagdad, the islamic world might very well have done something more than riot and protest our involvement in this war (as they see it, despite lack of proof). This is mostly because so long as the iraqi regime refrains from use of such weapons, they garner support. But when we do get to Bagdad, the war is lost for them, and it's quite likely Saddam with do a Nero Directive and finally use his CNBW capabilities.

The question begged is- if other nations involve themselves, will they break off if he does use those weapons, and how much chaos will they have caused our flanks before we provoke Saddam into his last-stand contingency, which would also be a violent and damning admission of guilt.

Scary stuff, no?

[Stewart Ramses]

deleted

[IronHammer]

I also think the US is kinda taking advantege of the media bais, for the purposes of ephesis on one area of the war, while ignoring other (really important to know if your the enemy) stuff. Think about it, the military has always had problems with media coverage; therfore, they are probably factoring certain things they know the media will do into their master plan.


[edit] ya know Stewert, the military never has enugh troops to cover every square inch of ground, this has always ben a problem in military planning from the beginning of warfare, so I think they know how to plan with scarce resources, since admitedly they are the "experts."

What I really think, is that there are weels within weels in this war.[/edit]

[Stewart Ramses]

deleted

[Bonnet]

The media's only goal is to make money which people tend to forget. All they do is appeal to the masses wether or not it is acurate. ( i meant laughable)

[Harmanoff]

Right. That answers one.

So how was my statement laughable then? I mean, you proved yourself wrong with those links. How am i laughable when you provide faulty numbers and then show everybody you're wrong?

[Stealth]

Ramses, there are plenty of troops. Over 250,000 vs Saddam's few thousand republican guards. The government has said from the start that "this won't be a short and simple war" and "it's closer to the beginning than the end" etc.

And...

During the Gulf War, they thought 500,000 would be enough as well, even though they were going up against the 4th largest (I believe) army in the world. And afterwards, most of the army surrendered, or was blown up. We lost around 200 soldiers I believe, which is .0004% of total troops. Not bad.

[IronHammer]

Hay guy's if your looking for some moderate positive news check out The NYPost, this is fairly uplifting news from a retired military officer and novelist.

[SvK]

I don't see why Muslims would be offended by the US attacking Saddam. The US isn't attacking because he's Muslim (is he even Muslim?), it's attacking because he's a mean guys with nasty weapons. Where does religion come into this?

[Stealth]

Doesn't matter SvK, the seeds laid by the U.S. as far back as the Harding administration (early 1920's) have caused much hatred to be directed to it from the Middle East (and thus, many extremist Muslims).

Of course i'm talking about the post-WWI era in which the Middle East was divided up by the world to suit it's needs--Arab residents didn't like that too much. After that it was Israel (post-WW2), where the United States and the U.N. established a refuge for displaced Jews--again, something the Arabs did not like. And ever since, the United States's support of Israel, causing even more anti-U.S. sentiment.

[EchoEffect]

to them we are imperialistic invaders. We might say we are not, we might not be. But when the United States, and Britain, invade somewhere, we aren't going to have huge sympathy.

[SvK]

So once again all our troubles go back to the Treaty of Versailles.

[Vaarok]

As far back as Harding? Try Pope Innocent III...

[M37]

Here's someting a little nuts
Reuters has a story saying that Slovenia was acidently named a member of the coalition of the willing. they deny it and say they just gave the coalition the right to use thier airspace to fly aid planes throgh.

Call me nuts but what are they going to do? Fly somone up to do a visual check - yep that cargo plane has food.

[IronHammer]

You could tell what kinda plan it is from the ground; actually many US planes have a quite distinct profile.

[Stealth]

Innocent III? The U.S. wasn't around then

[Martian]

M37: maybe they are friendly enough to trust that the USA does not abuse their friendlyness.

[Vaarok]

Hey, on the POW thing- they found shallow graves they're moderately sure contain those troopers that they captured and tortured.

Lovely.

[Retroboy]

So now the Iraqi government is paying off the families of civilian Iraqis that pull off suicide attacks against the Coalition forces. A hero to the country, a martyr, AND fame and good fortune for your surviving kin.

What this means is that the Coalition forces are going to have to be incredibly cautious and slow when distibuting humanitarian aid or assisting Iraqi citizens. It's also a wonderful propaganda spin for Iraq.

Suicide attacks from civilians + army people disguised as civilians
leads to
Coalition forces crippled in their attempts to act humanely
leads to
Iraqi people suffering more visibly
leads to
Iraq leaders blaming coalition forces for not treating Iraqis right.

Holy cow. I'm so glad that this war is so far away from me. A state that sponsors, promotes, and rewards the suicide of its citizens... *shudder*.

How do you fight that kind of tactic without performing heinous acts yourself? Precision-bomb the relatives' houses, after clearing them out, to send a message to other people contemplating doing the same thing? Iraq would simply not report on the story.

-- Retro