[IG] So, you think a big problem for the Guard is a lack of cappers...

[SDThielking]

I've been lurking in this forum for a while now, and it seems I read many comments that a problem with the IG is that in Tier 0, they're costly but powerful, and in later tiers they have a hard time scaling.

In all likelihood, I'll be slapped with a reprimand for what is essentially another "what if" thread, but I figured I would try to bounce the idea off of you to see whether it has any merit as a worthwhile suggestion.

Instead of proposing radical changes to guardsmen like removing cap, giving them terminator armor, equipping them with ubercannons, or merely giving them grenades... my idea is absurdly simple. Cheap as mud Conscripts with accuracy that makes Guardsmen seem like Olympian Medal winning sharpshooters. They could fill a slot for capping in Tier 0, Capping/Ablative wounds in Tier 1, and (should any survive that far) a meatshield to (briefly) tie up footslogging close combat and act as spotters for grenadier guardsmen. This would allow guardsmen to be balanced for Tier 1/2 without worrying about how they'd scale from Tier 0.

Assuming you've graced my heavy-handed monologue by reading this far, what do you think? What balance issues might they present in the later game? Might they actually be worth using in the early game? If not, why not?

If nothing else, a well thought out counterpoint may aid me in coming up with better ideas that might be worth suggesting. And who knows, if enough people think this idea doesn't suck, maybe there'll be enough in the suggestion box to be noticed.

So, commence with the reprimands!

[BobtheConquerer]

I think that would solve a lot problems for early-game gaurdsmen. From lurking for a while, I think the main gripe people have with them is that they are pretty much the only army that is expected to use the unit they get from Teir 0 for most/entire game. This makes them hard to balance because it's dificult to make a change without A) hosing the race or B) making them Near-Godly. with a seperate teir 0 unit for capping, they gaurdsmen can be made scale-able to everyone else without overpowering them, with a fathomable way to live long enough to get to that point without running and hiding from everything stronger that a small fuzzy animal.

[twigg]

I think the idea has been mentioned before, but I am not sure. I personally am up to it, but u will need to give more info before ppl start taking this suggestion seriously

1). cost of unit
2). wep upgrades (if any)
3). size of squad and max squad size
4). possibility of a conscript rush (u never know :P)
5). capping and decapping speed

I also think that this idea has been included in a mod or 2, but I cant remember the names ( Damn my bad memory!)

anyway, gl with ur idea

[BobtheConquerer]

I also think that this idea has been included in a mod or 2, but I cant remember the names ( Damn my bad memory!)

I think one of them was called Dawm of Warhammer, but I may be mistaken. But whatever it was called, conscripts did work out nicely for them.

[KickStartRom]

A dedicated capping unit has been suggested and I opposed it then and I oppose it now, besides the fact that IG has three diffrent problems and this only addresses two:
1.Tier 0 too costly GMs make hard capping
2.Tier 0,1+ weak GMs makes anti CC difficult to impossible at times
3.Tier 1,2+ No AV inf unit makes dependancy on sents and psykers too costly and micro demanding.

The combined effect is broken tiers 0-2, dedicated capping will save some cash and might resolve issue 1 and might even issue 2 ( interuppt mele + GM fire backup )
but will make IG overpowered since pepole will just use their GMs to rush as soon as they come out of HQ.


In the up and comeing DC exp pack Relic will intoduce a new heavy infentry unit avilable early on in the tech tree that should fix the issue in IG style - slowly capping near to base points until heavy inf is avilable to start provide cover to the slowly advanceing GMs - think turreting only quicker and cheaper because its a unit, not a building...

as for the AV, hopefully this will be addressed either by extra heavy weapon or by cost reduction + increase time of CotMS, frankly I think that the res that will be saved early on will suffice and no dedicated solution will hopefully be needed, but that remain to be seen...

[W0lf]

The thing is./.. a new capper unit = new unit. so if you want one youll have to wait for the next expansion, and i dont think theres ganna be a 'next' one.

[Troubleshooter]

The proposal is reasonable - but there are 2 things to consider:
1. It is a new unit - you wont get a new unit from a patch - and no capping squads are on the menu for DC. So this is probably a dead idea except for Modding teams.

2. If IG start using up cap for capping squads (even a 1 cap squad) then that is less mass that they can get under thier 10 pop from the single IC they get. Not that this is huge, but when you think about it, GM units dont exactly shine in a straight up fight without that mass there... so it puts IG in the position of needing a second IC to get a fully fleshed out tier 1 army. This may be compensated for by the fact that if IG had a capping squad - their econ would argueably be able to support a second IC... but there would be some balance issues to work out for sure. Fewer GM squads under the 10/10 cap would probably suffocate IG just as bad as having no cappers and fighting an up hill battle on econ.

[BastardKill]

It's not another "what if..." post but another "new capping unit" post.
IG fluff has that kind of units.
But IG has a different style, it must be played in a different way. It's not another army with capping squads like Marines or Chaos. I'd preffer to see IG shine on it's own way rather than imitating another race's game style.

[Fannin]

I think it can be implimented without actually being a "new unit", per se.

Same model as the guardsman, but doesn't recieve tactica benefits, has less hp, can't equip heavy weapons or attach leaders, and only costs 90 or so req.


Me, personally, I like the fact that guardsmen only have their one infantry unit that serves all roles. It's unique. I'm just saying you could do it without the hassle a "new unit" generally entails.

[Hirmetrium]

Allow IG to start with a squad, like orks did.

[W0lf]

Thats a decent idea. id vouch for that if igsmen dont get any other boosts. (yet)

[Hirmetrium]

wow, it just occured to me how AWESOME that idea is. Why dont relic give guardsmen a squad to start with? that way they can cap points to hold damn easy, giving them the defensive boost needed. it also avoids the huge issue of lowering costs.

I WIN!

[The_Guardman]

Conscripts unit was already proposed many times. It worked in many mod and should work ever in the official game. Reguarding the model, it is just a skin remade to have white helmet. To have a very different looking model, just use the Vanilla DoW campaing IGs whit a change to be team colourable. Reskinning should be not a big work on relic side, and it has already been done in the past, in the patch 1.2 reguarding CSM AC's powerfists.

[Hirmetrium]

you miss understood completely Guardman. Orks used to recieve a free slugga squad at the start of games, which was later removed.

Theres attually no reason NOT to put it in - even if it means an additional 1sec on the buildtime of guardsmen, it would fix a lot of early game issues with guardsmen (ie the weakness, like sluggas used to have).

[Old Painless]

/me flushes the starting squad down the proverbial toilet.

I dont want to lose my outer LP to an IG squad and get bunkered to death thanks ever so much.

Either drop the amount of morale they lose per squad member death or make them more reliant on squad leaders for them to be effective.

Anyone concidered making strip soul a T2 ability and making psykers actually useable when they are available through a price cut ?

Moving into T2 you could have 3 commi-guard squads, 3 psyker-guard squads and a CS.

[SDThielking]

To Troubleshooter: I don't think having 10 fewer Guardsmen and 20 extra Conscripts would hurt mass overmuch, just keep the Conscripts in front and it forces your enemy to either pick and choose his targets, or waste the first ten, twenty seconds of the fight splattering enemies that are there for the purpose of being splattered instead of Guardsmen.

To KickStartRom: I don't see Guardsmen being made from the HQ being able to rush as a huge problem, since, if Guardsmen are balanced for Tiers 1 and 2, it makes sense that you'd need to get them when you actually hit Tier 1, which is when your first Infantry Command finishes. So at the point you can start "rushing" Guardsmen, your enemy already has Marines/Chaos Marines/lots of Orks, or is a handful of seconds away from Eldar Aspect Warriors of choice. Your Tier 0 unit, buildable straight from the HQ, would be Conscripts.

To Old Painless: Psykers actually being worth what you pay for them would be nice, but I fail to see the benefits of attaching them. All I've noticed Psykers being able to do with attached squads is getting their morale to break even faster.

To BastardKill: All armies seem to have a different style and need to played differently. With Space Marines, your Tier 0 units become firing support. With Chaos, your Tier 0 unit is fast moving assault, used to tie up guns and defenders while the considerably slower marines move in and set up the heavy bolters. With Orks, your Sluggas move slower but seem to be a lot tougher than Cultists. With Eldar, Guardians can get plasma grenades and that... webbing... thing... to work as "more micro-intesive than Scouts" firing support. Saying that the great part about the Imperial Guard is that you don't have any unit diversity at all just strikes me as... well... silly.

[BastardKill]

Why silly? It's just different. I think you are way way wrong.
Once Marines can start deploying 10 men squad armed with missile launchers or heavy bolters, nobody goes on with Scouts. They don't become fire support, they become useless once they are taking a population slot. I never, never ever saw a Marine player creating Scouts once he can field Terminators. Perhaps to infiltrate the enemy in order to Deepstrike, but certainly, not to support with their (ehem) big, big guns. Same goes for the rest. Has anybody seen cultists supporting Possessed Marines? I just can't recall a single game where someone prefferred Scouts or Cultists to Terminators or Obliterators.
Sadly, once you have teched to tier 3, the game becomes a spam fest: Terminator+(Annihilator or Whirlwind) spam, Obliterators+Predator spam, Warp Spiders+Fire Prism spam, etc etc

You are wrong again, because, how an IG capping unit could become a fire support unit for... Guardsmen? Why should I spend a pop slot in that unit instead in more Guardsmen? Once IG teched to tier one, there could happen one out of this:
Conscripts are better somehow than Guardsmen and thus they get spammed or
Guardsmen are better than Conscripts and then nobody use them and develope them it's worthless.

I do think that IG lacks a different squad, but not Conscripts. I think IG needs a Ratling Sniper squad with infiltrating capacity. That would be great since it would make the long range cannons worth its price. Having no deep strike unit that could benefit from a infiltrating squad, Ratlings shouldn't be too expensive. But they should be tier1, not tier 0
Deepstriking would not fit IG's fluff.
I think that an army designed to win with massive tactics needs each and everyone of it's pop slots. Thus, Command Squads should be able to capture points.
The vehicles should work properly: you should desire to have a Baneblade as soon as you can, not like now, when everybody just spams Leman Russes.


The problem with IG is that surviving to and through Tier 1 is very difficult, and once you hit Tier 2, you don't get so many advantages as to go offensive. Someone said to allow Priests to become functional as soon as they are available, and I think it's a great idea. It would be very helpful.

[ImmortalChaos]

I like the starting squad idea... But something would have to be dome about nuker rush.

[weirwood]

I'm not saying that's a great or even good idea, but how about the Guardsmen from the Command Center starting as 3 GM for 120, with reduced build time to take the two less members into account?

That way you have a faster building, cheaper capping unit, balanced by the fact that they're much easier to loose if you don't reinforce them to standard unit strength.

[Kich]

From personal experiance, playing IG and playing against IG, they are far from a "costly yet powerful" situation. They get torn appart pretty hard actually.

But I do like the idea of a very cheap capping unit so you don't get screwed trying to do so with guardsmen.

[n0z3k1ll3r]

I'm not saying that's a great or even good idea, but how about the Guardsmen from the Command Center starting as 3 GM for 120, with reduced build time to take the two less members into account?

Good idea.

Alternatively perhaps the cost of Guardsmen squads built from the IC (not from the HQ) could be somewhat lowered, say to about 140. It's quite easy to implement.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

or....gm could just cap faster
w00t
nails everything pretty much

[KickStartRom]

I have an idea, but I allready hate it myself so I wonder what you'r reaction will be :-)
Reduce cap time + allow fireing while capping (the part that makes me giggle to vomit...) ?
It sounds bad even to me but it might be a good half-way fix untill we can see just what the balance feels like in DC, since half-way fixs are what IG players come to expact... * Self censured due to risk of Rant...

Anyway, you get the idea...

[Niuq Oteen]

I'm not saying that's a great or even good idea, but how about the Guardsmen from the Command Center starting as 3 GM for 120, with reduced build time to take the two less members into account?

I like this idea.


In the standard 1v1 game it comes down to the cost of the gm squads to make em effective, i like it the way it is.
As Sm i most of the time my scouts turn into meatshields for FC or my first tac squad.
This just feels like a waste, the cost of making gm squads effective a t1 is a touch high.
But this seems to offset the amount used by most other races on throw away capping units.
I know it affects the game speed, but i still like it.
Throw more men at it! usually what i do. Im horrible with ig for online play where the loss of 1 GM squad can mean the game.
Anyways i think a caping unit would be a waste for the guard.

[Hirmetrium]

I think it should work like HQ's tbh - Each guardsmen squad costs more resources than the last, starting at just 100. then it can increase to 120, 140, 160 etc. It would solve a lot of their problems.

[W0lf]

i really liked the starting with a squad idea... but old painless kinda made a good point lol.

[scales]

What if the cost & health of the guardsmen remained the same, but their damage and morale scaled with how many squad members were in in the squad?

e.g 5 guardsmen = normal damge/moral, 9 guardsmen = 30% damage & morale increase + the bonuses they get with their seargeant + commander unit attached?

justfication: their strength is supposed to lie with their numbers....

[Nobunaga]

Scales I don't know if it would work but, owing to the fact that orks already have horde bonuses, I'm 100% certain relic wouldn't do it again. Unique teams and all that.

I agree with Old Painless. Ig with a starting squad would be ludicrously overpowered. I'm guessing that any solution should avoid strengthening a rush if you want relic to take it seriously.

On another note what's the use of Psykers tier 1 without any abilities? They're pretty poor fighters.

BastardKill: I see scouts at least in tier 2 and probably tier 3 quite often. Not for fighting but for capping. One problem with Ig is that in a close game you often can't afford to spare squads to recapture lost points. Other teams have cheap cappers to do so and keep their econ intact. Conscripts could help with that a little.


I like Weirwoods proposal. The more I think about it the better it seems.

[[AF]purple]

Make techpriests cappers? :P

[W0lf]

no.. thats be soo imba... tps run up cap ur furthest point then lp it and stick a ic up..

[Ruzdreg]

Make Guardsmen cap points faster

[KickStartRom]

SDThielking, you must consider small 1v1 maps, in them that first GM squad will reach enemy hq no later then he 1 min mark meaning opforce needs to either see his building halted or his capping halted - this is an actual strat I suggested in this post:
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=100975
and is tested to work even on 2v2 maps (when playing 1v1 that is)...

[{DEATH}Abyss]

personally i would like IG to have the ability to build the Tactica straight off and that they start out with 150 power. this would allow IG squads to easily scale the gap between scouts and marines.

[4Servant]

fix ig pathing would sove 90% of these problems here.
I repeat again IG tier 1 can't be buffed cause else the rush becomes uber imba again.
Commies give moral imunity in t1 would do the trick.
Also having your general fighting unit as a cap sqaud can be usefull especialy cause you don't need to waste money on capers.

[DA CAP'N]

wouldn't it be great if they put ratlings in the game? then you could have a scout-like capping squad that could be upgraded with snipers in t1! it seems plausible to me... although a bit un-original as they would pretty much function exactly as scouts.

[The_Guardman]

Choppa Boyz and expecially Eldar Guardians are both, when upgraded, core fighting unit.

WA gave use the demented T0<T1<T2<T3<T4 system, and that make them weak, but only when compared to hardcapless T1.5-T2 units. Stat wise, they're good. If aspect warriors had been hardcapped, and same for ork supports, those 2 units will be at equal ground whit IG.

[Lazerguy]

Choppa Boyz and expecially Eldar Guardians are both, when upgraded, core fighting unit.

WA gave use the demented T0<T1<T2<T3<T4 system, and that make them weak, but only when compared to hardcapless T1.5-T2 units. Stat wise, they're good. If aspect warriors had been hardcapped, and same for ork supports, those 2 units will be at equal ground with IG.

Aspects really need a hardcap just to make Eldar less of freakshow in tier 1.5 but reapers would need a buff in that event.

[BastardKill]

Actually the best ideas I've heard in this thread are:
Guardsmen to cap faster (speed bump not necessary to uncap)
Command Squad (at least two/three members) able to cap/uncap.

[The_Guardman]

Yes Lazer. Obliovsly, they must be worth thinking about the choice to made them, ie. they must be not a nobrainer. Like basilisk for IG, you should have to think if they're worth the effort in the scenario your fighting atm.

[wogan121]

i dont se the prob wit just a bit of suicide gaurdsman after all ther is ment to b like another 6000 billion of em just use em at start an then bunker em thta works for me, cap an bunker is all i do until im tier 2 then let the grenades fly an let sentinels die

[DeadlyFred]

Why is it so hard to scale their abilities via Tech upgrades? I don't understand that much.

[The_Guardman]

It's that too much factors are involved.
- You have what you scale (damage, HPs, morale etc)
- There is the time taken to get it
- When you can upgrade
- And the cost

It seem few, but how to balance them?
First of all take the time to get them. You have to balance it on minimal time necessary to get, becouse it's the point top-level player use it. Too fast, and the game is again an IG-eat-all. Too slow, and IG will not survive your first engament.

Now you have to give a bonus sufficent to survive until the next reserch, but not so strong to have a destroy-all effect if reached at minimal time. 30 IGs in a fighting situation tht suddenly get a damage bonus can change the tide of the game if the bonus is too high. If it is too low, it will accomplish nothing and IG is again taking casualties as main effect.

If the cost is not balanced the minimal time to get it change drastically, expecially when fighting a no-conventional engament, like an enemy all-out rush or a turret build from IG side.


As yo ucan see, common sclaing trought upgrades is not easy to obtain, and IMHO is the worst system, expecially when you take in account the fact that other armies have different scaling upgrades and system at different timesets.

[ir0nside]

It'll be far easier to simply balance Guardsmen than to add a new unit.

I think that Commissars should cause them to be unbreakable like they used to be, now that they are very weak in comparisson to other more cost-effective tier 1 troops. Commissars aren't cheap, so it'd take a while (and significant early investment) for IG players to outfit their GM squads with Commissars.

It's pretty balanced.

[SirNick]

For what it's worth with regards to capping speed, the Imperial Guard is by far the most efficient race in capturing and decapturing points in the game.

Most races take 31 seconds to capture a Strategic Point, and a bit over a minute to capture either a Relic or Critical Point.

Imperial Guard takes only 23 seconds to cap a Strategic Point and perhaps a shade over 45 seconds to capture a Relic or Critical Point.

Orks are slightly behind IG, taking ~25 seconds to cap a Strategic Point and perhaps 49-50 seconds on Relics and Critical Points.

To find how quickly a race takes to decapture a point, divide those capping times by 3 or so.

Numbers may be slightly off due to rounding, but they're pretty close to what you'll see in-game, say, watching a replay.

Bumping up IG capture speed would be a pretty big thing, considering that they still have a pretty big lead on other races on capping and decapping points.