Tank spamming is making me rethink this game

[thewalrusking]

No dont get me wrong im enjoying the game as a whole but im slowly losing feelings towards it. Recently I have been trying out some multiplayer, well maybe 15 games. I see a strict rule sort of show itself in a majority of games. Its a game of strategy at the heart of the game, as most RTS are. But ive seen techniques used lthat use little strat. Tank spamming is one, well that really ruions it for me, i get so farking angry when ive been exchanging healthy attacks with my opponent for the first 10-15 min, but then utterly can be decimated by 4+ tanks arriving together at my base, after a quick cut and run. Even if I had 10 AT guns there is no way in hell i can stop 4 or more tanks. Panzer 4's and Panthers are too powerful to defend against. If im setting up a perimeter of sorts with the resource gathering, the only reason id be running all over tarnation at all, id expect id get alittle protection. And sometimes I do, but if I have a MG stationed protecting a VP 4-5 tanks will just drive right on by. And often if I attempt to go gung ho and just focus on tanks myself I will end up building up the 4-6 tanks i need and literally just waltz on in his base and go to town. The problem is really retarted because often ill end up making 1 or 2 MG, 3 Engineers, and focus the rest of my pop on armor. THATS DUMB, if I can frequently win by bypassing infantry and focus solely on Armor, and then drive right into his base, and usually win, thats hardly strat.

Ok so the guy i may be playing is bad at the game. Well if I fail to gain the resources at the beginnign it often can lead to a cascade that I wouldnt be able to fix. I usually do well getting a standard base up, maybe getting a tank out, but then the dudes 4-6 tanks will come a knockin. Other times I am the dude that tank spamms. And the reason I do is because its the fastest and therefore best way to win.

In short I am finding its all in who can get the tanks rolling first usually will win. SOmetimes me, other times not. Its just I feel its slanted to armor across the board. When I play the PC, there seems to be a bit more time that awards me some infantry but in the end I CANT win with infantry, so it really becomes a game of how fast can I get my shermans/stugs out.(and hence the less infantry I build the more manpower and pop i have for tanks.

So I can sum the post up in one sentence "He who produces only enough infantry to get to producing armor, wins"

i really like the idea of having 2 pop counts, a low one for armor and a 75 is for infantry. And dont flame me, the last thing i want is the games community to be gay. I like the game but man there are these little things that are stabbing me/

[CrossOrion]

If you had 10 AT Guns, 5 tanks will fall over.

Tank spamming is an issue with alot of people however, and I believe there's a hundred threads on the topic, but I also think your exaggerating more then your contributing to the overall discussion.

[Szminsky]

hmm tank traps maybe?

[CptStrombosis]

I roll out AT guns fairly quickly. I also stagger tank traps along certain main roads with a sniper to watch. So I can see em coming and prepare accordingly. BTW a general rule of thumb is only 1 AT gun is needed per tank, the AT guns are a very hard counter to tanks. It's not always like that though, if you don't have them in the right kind of cover a flakpanzer is definately gonna ruin your day.

[thewalrusking]

no on the open maps where ud need way to many tank traps to be effective, and i know that 10 ats would kill the tanks but building 10 ats will be very hard.

and sorry if im not helping i think a smaller cap on armor would help, WW2 wasnt won with armor.

[CptStrombosis]

Honestly, you just need to figure out what strategy works for you. You can give up, I don't care. Your stating an opinion that tanks are too powerful when they have a very real and effective counter that is cheaper than all of them. If they are at the point where they have 4 tanks and you don't have any tanks or a sizable number of AT guns, then you failed. You failed hard. Play better and faster.

[CrossOrion]

Harshly said, but I agree :P

[Kaikai]

im also sad that most victories are won with tanks, im not surprised, but im sad.

that said, while they cost more resources, i think a few units with bazookas or the equiv are very tough on tanks.

its hard to win with infantry only, but tanks on their own? no infantry support? tend to get beaten so long as you remember to attack back armor

[Jock]

CptStrombosis nailed this one on the head. If youre getting beat by 4 tanks and you have AT guns, tanks & AT inf. They are dead meat. If you dont have this then you failed.

They arent OP, its just you obviously didnt have the right counter for the job. I personally have never had a problem with this aspect of the game. There have been once or twice where Tiger spamming by 3 German players have been a probblem but thats another issue.

[GeneralGonzo]

I agree on that in general !

Tanks are not too powerful, they are good as they are.

But they are too cheap !!! Make them cost much more, especially the reinforcements for only manpower costs.
Here the game is imba towards axis !

Lets make a change here !!!

[FatalTheRabbit]

If you had 10 AT Guns, 5 tanks will fall over.

Well isn't that a bit of genius... Do you know what artillery is? Do you understand the concept of mobility? Do you understand that a tank performs the roles of all, excepting long range artillery, for a negligible cost difference to any given combat unit?

Think harder, and there have been several threads on this in the balance forum. Do a search, or look a few pages back.

[deadlybydesign]

The most effective counter is pre emption. the last 10 or so games I have played i have considerably weakened their tank production by getting fuel and munitions points early and defending them like a motherfucker! Seriously it is that easy, if they dont have the fuel or munitions they cant produce the tanks.

Those early exchanges you are talking about? Make sure that they centre around the fuel and munitions and you are well on your way to controlling youyr opponent. This game is all about position and he who has the best position/strat points is in control.

Plus use the tools that are given to you from the go, ie tank traps mines, at guns, stickies, squads with anti tank capabilites etc

[jasaund]

omfg, there are several ways to stop tanks, I'm never afraid of tanks, even flaks. Mines, AT guns, stickies, paras, just about everything in this has a counter. Tanks have more than one counter. Don't forget AP shells.

[Frosty]

Honestly guys ...

Even if there was a better counter to tanks than tanks themselves ... Do you think that it is fun playing against an opponent who is using tanks and engineers only? When you know that your own infantry is nearly completely useless and your only chance to win is to spam tanks yourself? That just destroys the tactical part of the game. MGs, riflemen, mortars, snipers, light vehicles ... All of them become obsolete and are overwhelmed by the appearance of tanks.

In most other RTS, relying on 1 or 2 unit types means certain defeat. In CoH however, it means almost certain victory.

[th15]

The issue here isn't that tanks are too powerful. If your opponent is rolling out 4 tanks on you, you didn't lose because of the tanks, you lost because you were outmatched, badly.

Healthy attacks? No such thing, if your attack isn't unhealthy for them, you're losing the game. If their attacks aren't hurting you then your opponent isn't a very good player. You can hardly expect a game to be balanced for newb play... might as well go back to tic tac toe.

[deadlybydesign]

which part of my post are people not getting_ what part of it does not make sense?

[Will Rockwell]

If you don't defend your base, expect to get pwned by whatever the enemy brings in. I learned my lesson after two armored cars destroyed my base. I had nothing to counter them with.

[Kjon]

I think people are starting to miss the main point of games - to have fun.

People however just want to win and use exploits and bugs to do so. Tank spamming is one of them. thewalrusking, if you want to play competitively, then i guess you'll have to learn how to counter it. If you want to play for fun create your own match and call it something like "2v2, fun game, no tank spam".

[Jock]

I think people are starting to miss the main point of games - to have fun.

I dont know what your getting at, i have fun everytime i play this game, whether they tank spam or not. 4 tanks imo isnt spam for starters but even if they do spam, just counter it in the correct manner and your sorted.

The thing i love about this game is that everything is able to be countered and pretty quickly as well. Ive seena guy hit me with tanks when i havent had a single tank or Anti Tank gun, and yet ive managed to produce the counter asap and beat him back.

[holymoly]

well... i dont see how the game could last that long for axis to get PzIV and Panthers... you didnt push him hard enough, didnt harass his fuel points i bet...

[Tranj]

Well isn't that a bit of genius... Do you know what artillery is? Do you understand the concept of mobility? Do you understand that a tank performs the roles of all, excepting long range artillery, for a negligible cost difference to any given combat unit?

Think harder, and there have been several threads on this in the balance forum. Do a search, or look a few pages back.

Actually, he had a good point. The original poster talked about tanks rolling into his base. If he had 10 AT guns protecting his base, the tanks would fall easily. If you aren't prepared for tanks, they will roll you. Tank traps are a free and excellent way to stem the tide of tanks. You can use them to force tanks to expose their rear for your AT gun/s, or use them to block them off completely. The issue with tank spam is not a blance issue, it's a cool factor issue. Many people love tanks. They look cool, they blow shit up. What's not to like. There are very effective counters to tanks, and also means of keeping those tanks from the field. If you hate tank spam, deny your enemy fuel. AT guns backed by MG's to protect them are very effective.

[Kjon]

I dont know what your getting at, i have fun everytime i play this game, whether they tank spam or not.

I suppose it's a point of view thing then.

[Bridger]

I think tank spam is only a problem in the big team games with high VPs set, otherwise the most effective strategy seems to be combined arms as long as everybody keeps up the preasure. The instant you lay off your opponent he will tech up and build tanks because it's the only way to come back and take a point (tanks are inherently offensive vehcles).

[ArTizan]

I think it's also probably laziness. It's far, far easier to just spam tanks and attack, as opposed to organise a mized army force and send them in tactically - AT guns and MG's covering the rear, infantry up front ready with stickies and sherman support, and a couple of wolverines in the back for support with mortar smoke cover.

[Dread Moose]

i find the spam gets annoying. I have found more and more games i play ranked just turn into spamfests. They steamroll infantry, and light vehicles become useless so quickly. I was addicted to the game for a few days, and then i got tired of seeing the tank spam, and now im doing 1vs1s and all im seeing are puma spams.

[Jock]

At the end of the day its just another option someone can take, like Artizan says its a lazy option, but a valid one nonetheless. If there wasnt that choice in the game it would be pretty dull. So expect to see this tactic every so often, its just a fact that some folk are going to do it. Let him spam tanks if he wants, nail them with the appropriate units, then roll on into HIS base.

The beauty of this game is spam isnt like other games where it can be an instant win button, and in fact almost every time someones spammed me they have been beat in the end. It really does favour the person who 'mixes' it up a bit.

[Rossi]

I play as allied and play very defensively. Lots of tank traps around my base with AT pointing in intertlocking arcs to defend the base itself. This will hold off most of the attacks for me, then I will just build up a force to counter-attack.

[DrunkenOne]

I think people are starting to miss the main point of games - to have fun.

People however just want to win and use exploits and bugs to do so. Tank spamming is one of them.

Do you even realize what an exploit is? Jesus christ man people throw this word around at everything that beats them. I built 3 ACs in a game yesterday and got called an AC spam exploiter. Just because you suck doesn't mean something is an exploit.

From now on I'm calling anyone who builds more than 1 engineer an engy spamming exploiter.

[BlueJackal]

Tanks are good, but if you can defend yourself by only fielding two Machine Guns, then your opponent deserves to lose.

He can field anti-tank infantry, and so can you. So do it! Put munitions to use, him losing a tank is going to hurt him a lot more than you losing half a squad of infantry. He might not always be losing a tank, but you can replace your loses pretty cheaply and use his retreat to secure territory.

I could see tanks being a bit more costly to repair... but that's it, really.

[Bog4rt]

Tank Spamming in a WWII themed rts is an inevitability since creators will never put appropriate limits on tank production that is realistic for any specific battlefied (even if armor had replaced horsed-calvary by WWII it still doesn't mean you saw heavily massed divisions of tanks cept early on in a struggle or for ceremonial conquererings (like when Germany rolled over Poland). A tank blitzkrieg was often at the most 4 or 5 tanks for an entire division of armor with most of the calvary being in the form of armored bikes, cars, & trucks (for a good narrative on this try reading Panzer Commander by Hans von Luck).

[Propbuddha]

Tanks are important to break through the defensive lines that form in the midgame.

For example, I player a game last night against a guy who covered a couple VPs with multiple MG Bunkers. I couldn't do much until I rolled through his defenses with a Sherman. I lost the game, but it was fun ripping up his defenses. He eventually counterted my tanks with 1 AT gun backed up by Panzershrek-toting Grenadiers.

You need to be prepared for the enevitable arrival of AVs with "real" AT weapons (AT Guns or your own tanks and not exclusively bazookas). If you aren't shame on you, you should have built one less Sniper.

If an opponent is "massing" Tanks on you then you are being too passive during the game. Anyone who can run with Tanks and Engineers exclusively in the late game is because you sat back and let them collect resources. If you are actively capping points and harrassing him, he will be forced into building some anti-infantry.

[Waggz]

If he is really getting that many tanks that fast then you did not push him as hard as you should have been, try to spread your forces out and cap points on all fronts and if he only hits you with engineers he's probably teching. I've done this with a friend of mine on Hilaire, the one Axis player was pumping out engineers so we pushed all the fuel points we could and didnt stop the push til we had just about all the points around their base. If you stop a player set on teching sometimes they're a bit confused on what to do next. :num:

[B1g_GuN]

no on the open maps where ud need way to many tank traps to be effective, and i know that 10 ats would kill the tanks but building 10 ats will be very hard.

and sorry if im not helping i think a smaller cap on armor would help, WW2 wasnt won with armor.

Yes, ten AT guns would be hard to build if you only start building them when you first see a tank (I've never needed more than four personally). In this game you have to anticipate. You know eventually he will roll out tanks, every player does, so you prepare for that early on by building AT guns when you don't need them. Preperation is the key.

[Echoman]

JFYI, if you notice the enemy not pushing on any of your fronts for a while. You can be assured that he is massing tanks and is about to roll out on you or is a noob and doesn't know what he's doing yet. So in turn you should send out some scouts to see what he is up to. If you went airborne then recon his base to see what he has built. If you are german send a motorcycle up to find out. as you move forward and do not run in to him. try to bring men up to take over the sp area's.

As said before, you want to keep pushing and not let him have time to mass tanks on you. even in a VP game, most battles are over before the ticker goes down because one team over ran the others base so the could not mass a come back.

[EvenLease]

oh dang, i dont ever remember hearing the americans in WW2 actuly go "THIS IS UNFAIR WAHH WAHHH" find a strat that fits u best, AT guns, Tank traps, airborne upgraded with hand held AT guns..

not to be mean man but ive only been playing this game for 3 days and ive won every ranked game against people.

Edit// Look at my AVATAR, see that airborne guy facing that panzer, smart idea ? hell yes, 2 squads of airborne upgraded can wipe out at lest 3 panzers if u flank and pull back at right times correctly. RTS - real time >STRATEGY<

key word. :3d:

[Dread Moose]

lol you know why that can take the panzers, because they are the worst axis tank! and apparently he isnt microing against your paratroopers. if both are microed, you lose.

[Gerfervonbob]

With the Allies there At-Guns are very useful because the AP shell ability allows you to take any tank on even if you hit there front armor. The axis At-Guns have a cammo abllity and If you blitz then you can get some stromtroopers to camo with shrecks and the At gun to set up and ambush. Its always a good Idea to have an anti-tank tank to sit behind the lines so when they attack you you can swing around to attack there rear when there engaging your Ats.

[Frosty]

oh dang, i dont ever remember hearing the americans in WW2 actuly go "THIS IS UNFAIR WAHH WAHHH" find a strat that fits u best, AT guns, Tank traps, airborne upgraded with hand held AT guns..

Are you serious?

WW2 wasn't about anyone having fun, it was about the fate of the entire world. In war, priority one is always winning it, by any means. And don't forget that there was/is still over ten times more infantry than tanks, because no one had or has the ressources to produce and maintain such giant masses of tanks. And the infantry still has it's advantages like carnouflage, better overview, etc. (that are sadly not included in the game)

The point is, that the game loses all of it's uniqueness and great features (cover, tactics, etc.) when spamming tanks is the most effective strategy. If it remains as it is, i won't waste my money on this game.

[Commander ASOP]

OMG someone else has read panzer commander

sorry for spam but really excellent book

On topic.

There are hard counters to tanks and combined arms is the way to go.

The best way is to establish your kill box and use obstecals and teain to put the enemy there and then just destroy them.

Of course this puts you on the defense from the start but if your plan is to destroy with counter attack works well.

[Dosiere]

I agree with the general idea that tanks are too powerful in this game when massed.

The problem is that tanks are both too powerful versus infantry, entreched positions, etc... pretty much anything but AT guns or other tanks. And they require little to no infantry support. A tank alone can be taken down by a few stickies sure, but a group of them RIPS through anything vaguely humanoid.

Even successul infantry tactics require awful amounts of micromanagement anyway, and losses are going to be high to unbearable even if it works.

It's not that it's ubalancing really, after all, you can bulid tanks as well. There are counters sure, but the fact is in the mid-late game infantry becomes obsolete and it becomes a tank battle... every time. It's just boring and relic should work to balance tanks with the rest of your units so the game is more interesting.

[BlueJackal]

I could see some tank nerfage, but I always have anti-tank infantry late game.

Grenadiers with Panzerschreks are useful... so are camo'd Panzerschrek Stormtroopers...

Since fuel is typically the primary issue with tanks, you can afford to replace your infantry squad losses.

[PurplePaladin]

I agree with the post; I REALLY enjoy this game, till end-game, then with either AI or multiplayer, it boils down to tanks. Tanks and Snipers; Tanks and Engineers; but in every single game I've played tanks, tanks, tanks.

AT guns are expensive and pretty much defencive only, and as we all know, this game is not about "defendiing" or turtling. For a little more, you can get Tanks, which kill pretty much all units and are the fastest units in the game. I'll spot you 10 AT guns, you spot me 5 tanks, lets see who wins :rip:

This game is SO great at first; combined arms; realistic tactics; supply lines; and then tanks come in, and it turns into Command and Conquer :joy:

Sure, if your a really good player, you can do stuff to try to prevent the other person from getting lots of tanks, but the point is, when they DO get them, tanks should not be the gods of the battlefieild. In fact, if this game was actually balenced for combined arms, no good player should want, or be able to win by spamming tanks. Do you want a game that focuses on combined arms and strategy, or do you want one that focuses on whether or not you can keep the other guy from getting tanks. . .

[Brat_Boy]

IMO infantry AT weapons are too inaccurate to be effective. Allied weapons also don't do enough damage. The bazooka is harder to get (rangers only), but it is less accurate and does less damage than the Panzershreck. The Recoilless rifle is like a peashooter, and the panzershreck is still quite inaccurate (though does a good bit of damage). 2 squads of AT infantry have some trouble taking out 1 tank (similar MP costs) because their rounds bounce off the front so easily. Granted, they are very good at flanking if the tank is distracted, but we still need tanks to be more vulnerable to infantry AT weapons. It takes something like 4 hits from a shreck to kill a Sherman (from the side), and 3-4 shots will likely miss. It takes a Panzer IV 3 hits IIRC, and it's very accurate.

[Unearthly]

Why are there so many replies flaming the OP? Calling him a whiner, a newb, saying he doesn't know how to play and should just 'get better' because he simply wasn't good enough.

Let's see more constructive replies, there have been some good points made already.

1) Deny your opponent Fuel. Use that early game infantry advantage you should have because you are spending less manpower to tech up and capture those fuel points and hold them.

2) Prepare for the tanks arrival ahead of time. Before you think it's possible for him to have so many tanks, build some AT guns and set them up at choke points. Build tank traps to create choke points if natural ones don't exist.

I'll add,

3) Scout their base! A lone sniper on passive can usually infiltrate the enemy base undetected and you can see what buildings they have, what units that are waiting to roll out. If you see they are making their Panzer Command, start rolling out the 57mm's!

[Gratuk]

but if they arent the best... why tech at all?

[jasaund]

it all comes down to attacking. This game does not look kindly on the totally defensive player. The problem is that you should never let an enemy spam tanks or any unit at you. Spamming, IMO is a serious weakness and you should win the game because you can anticipate the next move of your enemy. What are they going to do with all those tanks? UMMMM.. ahhh, march into my base and kill me. Now all you have to do is plan for it, once the smoke clears and they have lost a ton of MP & fuel you have the upper hand.

[plumpman]

This issue is pissing me off too, but you got to learn to work around tank spam. I know I hate it too, but there are ways, albiet a bit to hard to do, to counter tanks.

Want to know the best counter to tank spamming?
250 POINT GAMES

[PiTiFUL]

Damn I wish I could play this game without having to use pause, just too many distractions and I cant stay so focused for so long, maybe with more practice. Point is I have a good understanding of strategy and anyone who tried to tank spam me would be sending thier tanks to AT gun hell. I can set up defensive positions against expertAI that I never have to watch becuase nothing can ever penetrate the killing zone. Of course everything depends on what map you are playing, some maps are easily defended, other maps are impossible to defend so mobile warfare is the only way to go in which case both sides should be spamming tanks. So if you do not like mobile tank warfare pick a map that puts tanks at a disadvantage.

[FatalTheRabbit]

Actually, he had a good point. The original poster talked about tanks rolling into his base. If he had 10 AT guns protecting his base, the tanks would fall easily. If you aren't prepared for tanks, they will roll you. Tank traps are a free and excellent way to stem the tide of tanks. You can use them to force tanks to expose their rear for your AT gun/s, or use them to block them off completely. The issue with tank spam is not a blance issue, it's a cool factor issue. Many people love tanks. They look cool, they blow shit up. What's not to like. There are very effective counters to tanks, and also means of keeping those tanks from the field. If you hate tank spam, deny your enemy fuel. AT guns backed by MG's to protect them are very effective.

You've got to be kidding. Putting 10, or 5, or even fewer AT guns in your base just sitting there is not reasonable unless the opponent has total map control and you've got no ground of your own except that within your base, and then it doesn't matter anyway, because you lose map control. Tank masses are almost always backed by some for of artillery anyway. For a guy who's connected to the people making the game itself you've made a very bewildering statement.

Fuel control is countered by offmap abilities, and they're very effective. Also, the idea of simply 'denying fuel' must include extreme skill disparity. If you're equally matched neither will simply be able to deny the other fuel, and so phasing out infantry with tanks will still be the goal. Have you not read the multitude of posts regarding this?

Can you point out to me where exactly a tank mass and some pioneers backed by some form of artillery, commander or unit based, is vunerable against anything but a mirror army? Light armor and combat infantry don't fit into that picture.

[NIB]

Things are simple, the eco on this game IS BROKEN. Map control gives you very little resources cause the hq gives you tons of resources. And there is this mysterious upkeep cost, WHICH ISNT WRITTEN ANYWHERE IN THE GAME. Also the economy isnt any flexible. If you have no need for fuel, then you are just gathering something which you cant use.

So if i have to decide between a tank which costs 400mp and 100fuel and a unit that costs only 400mp, both things cost the same cause i already have tons of fuel stacked, i might as well use it. Which leads to the balance problem. AT dont cost fuel, tanks cost fuel but the added cost of fuel isnt enough to actually increase the cost of the tank.

If i am spamming AT, then i am not utilizing my eco to the fullest. So someone who is spamming tanks, is taking fully advantage of his eco. In other words, he can afford spamming a more "expensive" unit, simply because it isnt more expensive, it costs the same as my at.

Tanks arent imba, this game's eco is simply broken. And this becomes even more obvious on team games, cause the numbers of potentially unused resources(fuel) can be even bigger.

But then again, when did relic learnt how to make balanced competitive games, in order to learn now. Games made by noobs for noobs. Oh look how pretty the flames are.