Regarding the "super spells" Whys OB free for SM?

[Kalevispetke]

Was thinking...

SM get their Orbital Bombardment for free when they hit T3.

IG get Strafing Run at the same time but its rather sucky.

Eldar and CSM have to research their spells and so pay extra, even though they suck compared to OB.

Orks don't have a T3 spell at all 0_o instead the Squiggoth has that Rampage thing but its all Tier 4.


So umm, whats the reasoning behind the spells, why won't everyone get them for free or every1 have to research. This current system doesn't make much sense to me.

SM already got WotE and deepstrike anyways, and still get their spell for free!? Whats up with all this SM wank?

[konfeta]

Because identical races a fun game not make?

While you have a point with it being free, some races have different strengths for different tiers. It just happened that SM get the Mop of Lights Ballete.

SM specializes in strong elite units and have some very strong powerful abilities/items to make up for lack of ability to swamp the enemy in a tide of units.

[Energizer Bunny]

This game has a mixture of many spells/special abilities, some of which have to be paid for and some of which don't

OB/Smite/Shout are free, whilst the likes of WOTE/Battlecry/Weaken resolve have to be paid for.

It's the same for every race

Eldar get 3 free spells on the Farseer, but then have to pay for Eldrich Storm.

OB really isn't that good anymore anyway

[MoschBoy]

SM specializes in strong elite units and have some very strong powerful abilities/items to make up for lack of ability to swamp the enemy in a tide of units.

lol; you realize SM can in fact field more units than orks?0_0

[Chris]

Technically it isn't free as you can't use it without a relay, I'm not 100% sure but if you lose your relay you may lose the ability to use it which is an exploitable weakness. Combine this with the fact that 1) it's piss weak now and 2) the ability seems to be on a global recharge OB is a complete non-issue.

[SubZero]

You can take out the relay and stop the OB ability - you can't remove Waargh, Eldritch or strafing run (well, HQ you can).

[Kalevispetke]

Ok I totally forgot about the relay. Now that I think of it, the Orbital Relay building is the SM equivalent for the research kind of.

[W0lf]

OB sucks. wheres the issue?

[Hello_Moto]

here's the 411 on the 1.51 OB:-

- it is no longer a base killer. In fact it hardly kills anything.
- inflicts 25% damage on buildings
- inflicts 100% damage on infantry and vehicles
- good disruption
- if relay is destroyed before OB is cast, then no OB.
- if relay is destroyed after OB is cast, then OB still continues.
- if FC is killed after OB is cast, then OB stops after the most recent lance has hit the ground.
- did i mention it now sucks?

[SpaceMarineJoe]

OB is pwnage, I love it when we win and all 4 of the players on our team are swarming on the last guy and then all of a sudden... BOOM! Units flying everywhere! Lolz aside from that its good to flush out tanks if you get a chance in tier 4 but I find my self trying very hard to use it properly most of the time.

OH and one more thing, it saves your HQ from PSMs and ATs lolzorz. Now that its got crappy dmg I thing that is THE number one use for OB and I am not even joking. Its really the best thing to keep your HQ alive just a little longer when PSMs and ATs strike your base.

[Carl]

inflicts 25% damage on buildings

wrong, it inflicts 25% damage on HQ's, it still does 100% vs evry other building.

[konfeta]

lol; you realize SM can in fact field more units than orks?0_0

Well, the SM don't *feel* like a swampy race. I guess I am a slave to what I percieve SM as.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Just because you can field more doesn t mean you WILL. Sure you CAN have more tacs, it also costs you through the nose unlike ork vehicles or nobz which are more occasionally spammed.

Numbers in this game are restricted by reinforce rate and costs and faster reinforce represents more of large numbers than total numbers.

Even though dreads and trakks are the same pop you never see people spam dreads like they do trakks. That would be a good example.

[ImmortalChaos]

Err, you *can* have more terminators than nobs and more tacs than shootas. And, under T4 large battle circumstances, you will.

The most nobs orks can feild would be 50... Thats 5 full squads. No NLs. Take away a squad and you can add MANz, leaders, doks, and heros.

SM on the other hand can get 6 term squads easily, with cap left over, AND get 4 apoths and 3 heros for no cap cost at all.

On topid: OB is in no way OP or abuseable. The only thing I would change about the "super spells" is that rampage kinda sucks.

[MoschBoy]

so you dont use your whole pop? and you dont reinforce your squads?

Numbers in this game are restricted by reinforce rate and costs and faster reinforce represents more of large numbers than total numbers.

fact is: SM can field more troops than ork, end of story. you can argue about that all day long, but it wont change the truth.

and in terms of cost..... what does a tac cost again? 50? and what does a nob cost? less? it doesnt matter if they are spammed - the numbers count. and the cost. and a single nob costs more than a single SM. which is also true.

Even though dreads and trakks are the same pop you never see people spam dreads like they do trakks. That would be a good example.

maybe this has something to do with cost? or the role those units take in their armys? but thats just me.

[Ruzdreg]

Can we call these things "Super abilities" instead of "Super spells"?
I just don't like the idea of the Squiggith rampaging across the map being a result of a spell.

[Hello_Moto]

wrong, it inflicts 25% damage on HQ's, it still does 100% vs evry other building.

i dont know about that. I agree that it definitely inflicts 25% damage on HQs but if you cast it on any other structure, it also seems to do pitiful damage.The only thing that OB is good for is destroying clusters of power gens for econ disruption.

EDIT: I'm afraid you're wrong, Carl. Have a look at this:-

37) Orbital Bombardment Damage Changes
-- Armor-piercing towards building_med and building_high was reduced from 100% to 25%. This effectively quarters damage output.

Orbital Bombardment does 400-480 damage per hit, up to 14 hits.

It's 100% effective against vehicles, 70% effective versus building_light (generators, LPs, Waaagh Banners).

It's 25% effective against everything else, including HQs and regular buildings. A full HQ bombardment will do ~1500 damage.

(taken from SirNick's post http://forums.relicnews.com/showthre...balance+change)

[Ruzdreg]

fact is: SM can field more troops than ork, end of story.

Orks can field upto 100 Ork infantry units? (Ork sluggas only cost 1 ork population?)

Spacemarines can field 90 units.
Each marine squad costs 2 population, each squad holds 8 Marines + 1 sargent, 9x10=90.
But than again, in addition to that you can build 4 Apothocarys, a Librarian, a Chaplin and a foce commander. So its 97 in all.





Umm,....were not we talking about the Orbital bombardment?
:focus:

[SpaceMarineJoe]

Exactly mosch, your numbers and theories are heavily skewed. You hold onto this maximum pop stuff when you know most standard games that aren t QS or FFAs never reach such numbers. Even in a team game I have trouble keepin out 12 pop of termies and have em reinforce full. You ask if I reinforce my squads full? Well go watch a replay and you see I rarely ever get a 9 man tac squad. Thats too expensive for the firepower of the squad to me and often I get 5-6 man squads with 4-5 HWs. I cant afford to get full squads not to mention full pop THEN full squads. In fact I usually struggle to get 4 decent HW squads out with 5 man members.

Thats so deceptive saying tacs are 50 and nobz cost more... I mean we aren t noobs, we know that nobz eat up vanilla marines in a dozen different ways. So HWs jsut aren t factored? BTW if you didn t realize, vanilla marines are actually more compareable to shootas and sluggas of which are spammed way more in numbers.

The dread example is valid for the exact reasons you stated. Spamming has to be viable in order for it to happen. Although I COULD drown you in large numbers of vanilla tacs, it would be both pointless and stupid to try and do that against nobz or anything else they will throw at you. You don t see me drowning you in dreads cause they cost a ton of money and are slower/bigger. TBs are more spammable than rockets by far, nobz are far more spammable than HWs by far and trukks/trakks are far more commonly spammed than anyother SM vehicle(cept maybe the LS at certain times).

[MoschBoy]

hmmm, give me a full pop of vanilla tacs and i will kill your full pop of unupgraded nobz easily.

Thats so deceptive saying tacs are 50 and nobz cost more... I mean we aren t noobs, we know that nobz eat up vanilla marines in a dozen different ways. So HWs jsut aren t factored? BTW if you didn t realize, vanilla marines are actually more compareable to shootas and sluggas of which are spammed way more in numbers.

lets fator in HW: nobz are so dead its not funny even more. on an equal number basis, tacs are a LOT stronger than sluggas/shootas. and no, they are rarely spammed in more numbers than tacs, unless its a all out shoota rush in tier 1.

The dread example is valid for the exact reasons you stated. Spamming has to be viable in order for it to happen. Although I COULD drown you in large numbers of vanilla tacs, it would be both pointless and stupid to try and do that against nobz or anything else they will throw at you.

mass tacs in tier 2 own ANY tier 2 infantry (especially with plasma), and with good micro they own every tier 3 cc unit except PSM. i LOVE tacs. when i play SM, i use them excessively, especially in team games. they are harder to micro than AT/vanilla temies, but they are very rewarding. maybe its just because i still play DoW and see just how powerful plasma tacs are.

I cant afford to get full squads not to mention full pop THEN full squads. In fact I usually struggle to get 4 decent HW squads out with 5 man members.

and i struggle to get more than 2 squads of nobz in real games.

nobz are far more spammable than HWs by far

you know as well as i do that they NEED to be spammable. if they werent , they would be worthless, because 2 ranged squads could easily kill them.

btw: stay realistically: when was the last time you had to kill an equal number of shootas/sluggas except in a rush? nobz are the unit to compare with, not sluggas/shootas.

[Hirmetrium]

There is no issue with OB. this topic is dead.

On super spells, sorcerers corruption needs another buff...

[ImmortalChaos]

So does rampage, eldrich storm, strafing run AND OB itself.

Oh, and tau missle barage needs a nerf...

[eXarchProXy]

here is no issue with OB. this topic is dead.

On super spells, sorcerers corruption needs another buff...

I disagree strongly.

It's still too strong IMO.

People now just drop in with squads of missle marines and us OB. In conjection with each other they destroy and HQ in seconds.

Lets narrow this down to get a good comparison:

1. Earthshakers cost cash for each use. Earthshaker rounds are part of an artillery unit, so it's not a good comparison. It's an IG distinctive trait and comes after T2. It's not free by any means.

2. Air Strike is a T1 ability and doesn't compare, it also only hurts infantry, and is more of a disruption spell than anything else. No way you can compare it.

3. The Squigg is a super unit in t4 that costs a lot of req./time with laughably bad pathing. Not a hero. Not the same type of issue so also, bad comparison.

***The only spell that really compares to OB is Eldritch storm, since it does damage to infantry and buildings and comes from a Hero unit.***

And if you want to say that making the orbtial relay counts as a "cost" lets compare:

_Eldritch storm costs 250/100 after spending 250/200 building the soul shrine. For a whopping total of 500/300 req. Enough for a T3 tier change or almost enough for a super unit. WOW! The soul shrine also takes a long time to build.

_The Orbtial Relay cost 150/50 and then the spell is "free" as in NO upgrade. (No, you can't use OB after the OR is gone, but it takes half a second to build it again.)

So 500/300 vs 150/50! :wow:
for a more powerful spell. :wow::wow::wow:
It's a bit of a joke really...and so far off the scale of balance ...
As if marines aren't strong enough in T3 with spammable terms, preds, a land raider, whirlwinds, and 3 hero units with crazy immunity spells.:wow::wow::wow::wow::wow:

Suggestion:

Add Orbital Bomb to the Relay as an upgrade. Cost should be at least 250/100. This would also help tie up the relay and cut down on quick spams. It would also be nice to downgrade the HQ damage a bit more.

I don't know if anybody could argue that this isn't fair considering.

[Elferx]

YEA!!!
Make Eldritch strom free!!!

We will see how the DoW community will react at cheesy knockbacks of huge storms.

[Fannin]

So SM is OPed because they can field more units than Orks, eh?

By that logic, IG are way the fuck overpowered. Let's nerf the hell out of them!!!11

[MoschBoy]

So SM is OPed because they can field more units than Orks, eh?

By that logic, IG are way the fuck overpowered. Let's nerf the hell out of them!!!11

stop trolling and start thinking.

[SpaceMarineJoe]

@Mosch,

First you say SM can field more troops in numbers(which is false since sluggas/shootas and SBs are all units whether they are as strong as ATs or not) then you go on and mix the numbers to your own liking and compare strengths which wasn t part of the original point. Unupgraded nobz why? Also 2 squads of nobz is easily 20 members, my 3 tac squads are 5 manned...

And yes shootas and sluggas are the comparison to vanilla tacs and I see shoota rushes all the time. If you are playin DoW then its not really something I am aware of but WA is what I am talkin about and a combination of shootas + sluggas always outnumbers my tacs especially when they hit my base with sluggas + shoota + BM + more shoota while I am just gettin gettin my second tac squad out. Factor in the scouts and I am still outnumbered by a large sum.

So orks is represented by mass and the solution to plasma is often vehicles like trukks so you spam a combination of things. Thats like saying tacs outnumber ork infantry cause you went trukk spam. TBs are far more spammier than MLs for AV and trukks/trakks are far more spammy than SM vehicles and nobz are far more spammy than Tac HWs.

You don t need to turn it into another balance thing cause atm orks are not UPed if thats what your hinting at and in fact I am sure they have the advantage in 1v1 auto atm with equal disadvantages in team games.

[fuggles]

Is the insta-OB bug still about?

Can't wait for DC, with hard caps then perhaps these stupid number issues will be fixed. OB is fine for my money, especially now it is globally timed.

[MoschBoy]

First you say SM can field more troops in numbers(which is false) then you go on and mix the numbers to your own liking and compare strengths which wasn t part of the original point. Unupgraded nobz why? Also 2 squads of nobz is easily 20 members, my 3 tac squads are 5 manned...

ok, i was wrong with the tacs (3 men, blah); what about AT then and nobz?
still 3 squads of tacs with HW beat 2 squads of nobz (i assume you have them with HW cuz you havent 3 8 man squads...).

when i play SM i reinforce my tacs to full strenght - and i am not loosing because of it. i guess there are more ppl reinforcing their tac squads to 8 memebers than ppl that only build 5 SM/tac squad (which i doubt you do, honestly).

SMJ, this is leading to another "orks are the hardest to beat by SM " you seem to like that much - threads; personally, i have much an easier time beating orks with SM than i have beating SM with orks;

backt to the numbers: even if SM can get 3 units less than orks - there infantry IS stronger than ork infantry though FJ in tier 3 may change that).

[Energizer Bunny]

OB not a problem. Just pretty lights. I don't think some people can look past the pyrotrechnics and see that it's having sod all effect.

Are we done here?

[Hello_Moto]

Air Strike is a T1 ability and doesn't compare, it also only hurts infantry, and is more of a disruption spell than anything else. No way you can compare it.

you kinda lost your credibility with a statement like that!

[SpaceMarineJoe]

I do that all the time mosch, its in the replays I post. Those are my team games where I go around carting full HB 5 man squads around, killin a bunch of crap and then leaving. I don t need to waste my money on extra stuff like that. The rhinos + cult take up all the extra req I can spare.

[MoschBoy]

well, i am one of those ppl prefering a tac strategy with plasma and a lot of dancing+ nades. i need the meatshield to keep my plasma carriers alive as long as possible while dancing.

[{DEATH}Abyss]

I would like OB to actually get the chance to go off. ATM its way too slow. I get in the huge giveaway light off the FC's head and then something will disrupt him and OB will stop. And then he dies.

[Fannin]

I'm an IG player, and I wish that Air Strike was even half as good as the current OB.

And yet, I also acknowledge that OB isn't an issue.

[eXarchProXy]

you kinda lost your credibility with a statement like that!

becuase it does do a lot of damage to buildings?

[Energizer Bunny]

Neither do good damage to buildings. Air Strike isn't tier 1 either.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

the airstike does have one thing that's better than the OB
it's fast
takes like 2 seconds to set it up
and it beings attacking and deals all its damage in a very small amount of time, unlike the OB which you can start running away from.

however
airstrike has very short range, something that i would like changed

[eXarchProXy]

This post by SirNick gives the damage of Eldritch Storm. It does roughly 1000 damage to all buildings over 5 seconds. To quote SirNick again, "Orbital Bombardment does 400-480 damage per hit, up to 14 hits.

It's 100% effective against vehicles, 70% effective versus building_light (generators, LPs, Waaagh Banners).

It's 25% effective against everything else, including HQs and regular buildings. A full HQ bombardment will do ~1500 damage."
Orbital can do a lot more damage depending on the configuration of the base.

Orbtial bomb is for n00bz.

[fuggles]

How can it be for noobz? Would you not use it because you are too good????

It's the only reason to build a FC in endgame, erego it's freeness is justified by the scaling of an existing unit.

[ForgottenSpirit]

_Eldritch storm costs 250/100 after spending 250/200 building the soul shrine. For a whopping total of 500/300 req. Enough for a T3 tier change or almost enough for a super unit. WOW! The soul shrine also takes a long time to build.

_The Orbtial Relay cost 150/50 and then the spell is "free" as in NO upgrade. (No, you can't use OB after the OR is gone, but it takes half a second to build it again.)

So 500/300 vs 150/50!

The soul shrine is your eldar teir 2 upgrade, so if your going to count that, please count the 250/100 and 400/300 for both teir 2 and teir 3 for marines.

So its 500/300 vs 800/450

For a much mre powerfull spell... which can be stopped by killing a very low hp orb relay.


And eXarchproxy, when he said you lose your credibility,

Originally Posted by beXarchProXy

Air Strike is a T1 ability and doesn't compare, it also only hurts infantry, and is more of a disruption spell than anything else. No way you can compare it.

In the same way that kasyrkin, ogryns and the assassin are teir 1 yes?

And it does compare, because its teir 3 and does piss all compared to any other teir 3 ability.

[PlzPwnMeKThx]

I personally don't have TOO many problems with the orbital bombardment. Although I recall someone saying it is too "slow", to me, I find it mmmuuuuuch faster than the original WA & DoW Orbital bombardment which gave you mroe than 2 seconds to interrupt the FC. But of course, I dont even find a problem with the airstrike. It's fast, does interruption and knockdown, and fairly decent damage. I just use it against units that have set up times to screw them up and get the rest of my army in. However, I don't understand how tau simply gets to get an upgrade for the massive aoe damage 'spell' done by the skyray missle ship, while guardsman have to pay 200/200 for the earthshaker. People simply spam airships and use their giant aoe on me in every game that i've vs'ed Tau in... Although a great counter is chimera + fanaticism...