[1.2 balance] Americans too Imba see why

[Hagiman2000]

1. Early Game

Every high allied player uses mass rifleman. Its the first RTS that i know where such a stupid and unskilled tactic has so much success. The allied player builds two Rifle Squads or one Rifle and one jeep and his no problems with volks because his rifleman are cheaper (270 to 280) are one more men and are faster to build (if you take the right tree).If the allied takes the building you can nothing do with the germans.

But its getting better. The BAR is one of the best weapon in the game. you can pin down volks in one second, yes one second (bunker and MG squads need 4-5 seconds) so how imba is this.

2. Ranger/Rifleman/Airborne

I don`t know why allied players are afraid of tanks. The allied has sticky bombs (never saw a sticky bomb falling to the ground, but so several panzerfaust missing there target) und bazookas (two of them) for his ranger/airborne. The airborne have TNT the granadiere only handgrandes.

Panzerfaust (Cost 50 Ammo)
- sometimes miss
- never took out the engine
- do much less damage than SB

Sticky Bombs (Cost 50 Ammo)
- always hit
- disable nearly always the engine
- do much more damage even against heavy tanks

Is this imba enough ? But have much more.

AT-Gun. With the option it shoot armor piercing granates. With this Option a Puma or Stug is dead in seconds and even Panther und Tiger geht enough damage. Is this Option for one Shot? No its for 10 Seconds (2-3 Shots). Regarding the damage a panzerfaust does and the damage a AT-Gun with enabled armor piercing rounds does its a joke that both cost 50 Ammo. The AT Gun option must at least cost 100 better 150 Ammo. The AT Gun has also a much to far shooting range and the granades fly in curves (yes no joke) so you can`t escape with your tank. Regarding this I can`t understand why Allied players are so afraid of german Tanks.

The next part is the tank barrier (don`t know if it is called liked that in german its called "Panzersperre").
The allied can produce them for free. But how can the german destroy them ? Even a goliath which is the best explosiv the germans can buy, only suffer 1/4 damage on ONE tank barrier. Tanks need even longer (12-15 shots from a panther). A Tiger can roll over the barrier but first, if you play defense tree you have no tiger and second the most games are over before you can call a tiger. On the other side the allied player can equip his Sherman with a bulldozer and destroys the German tank barrier.

So I hope you can understand that as a german player the game is at the moment a pain in the ass.

[Fitz]

I moved it before you hit reply

please don't back seat moderate tho. We are awake.

[Montoro]

Agreed, It is widley spread in the forums.

Allied Imbalance points:

- Shermans (too powerfull against infantry, much better than pz4)
- Calliopes (absolutely a joke)

Also Axis infantry is useless against allied armor, even with panzerfausts or panzerschrecks.

Also tank traps are a joke for allies and a problem for axis.

This version is clearly unbalanced for the allies side.

The game rocks, but they have to work soon in balance.

Have a look in overall stats, you will allways see more allied victories than axis ones.

[Barneby_Jenkins]

Rifles are countered quite effectively by good mg/volk usage. Bars cost a nice wad of fuel and if your opponent goes that route then you should have a headstart on vehicles. Snipers make quick work of AT guns, not to mention just getting behind it with a puma or ostwind.

You mention airborne and Rangers but in order to get them an allied player has to concede Calliopes.

Throw a couple stickies at a stug and it'll probably damage the engine but it will be alive to repair and you should have inf backup anyway. Plus the allied player has to upgrade to get them which is more fuel down his drain.

Tank barriers are a major pain for Axis but they take a long time to make and engineers can be picked off in the progress. You should watch some replays of the better axis players to get a feel for what axis can do.

[Hagiman2000]

@Barneby

Im talking about the early game. No Ostwind or Puma anywhere. And if you build a MG Squad you are dead anyways. I always win against a allied player if he builds MG squads. Why? its simple. He can have his building and his 2-3 Flag points. I take the other 2/3 of the map. So I get faster pumas and kick the MG squad out of the house. He has no riflesquad too and so ein can kill his Engineers very easy with my volks.

[Dryden]

one thing. Only Sherman Crocodile can destroy tank traps. And
- it costs 110 fuel (one hundred and ten)
- it is AI only.

So atm when allies have free 110F, axis players certainly has his tigers.
And Tigers at least can do smth useful on the battlefield except being a garbage collector.

[jeansberg]

Axis get a building that supplies volksgrenadiers AND motorcycles AND snipers AND machinegun teams at the same time. I'm not saying axis is overpowered because of that, but both sides have their advantages.

And BARs do not suppress in one second, unless you use the ability that costs munitions.

[Fought]

Your look at the technical side of things. Proper play and axis can smash allies. I dont think anyone has played a game where all those factors contribute to axis losing, it may happen once or twice, but axis can counter easily.

[milkycookie]

no, i dont think mass riflemen are a problem. In ranked 1v1 games, ONE MG42 pins masses of Riflemen easy. With a 2nd MG42 OR an Pioneer squad with Flamer OR a Motorcycle you can wipe them all out.

Nope, i don't see why Allied is OP'd compared to Axis at the start of the Tier...it's all about positioning, positioning, positioning.

[Hagiman2000]

@Dryden

The Crocodile cost 110 fuel thats true but you can build it regarding how much tree points you have. On the other side the german must win many battles to get so much points to call a tiger. But the allied players wins all the time in the early cam, so how should the axis player get his tiger, because building is out of question.

@jeansberg

You are right, but look what I wrote earlier. Sniper and MG are useless. I go around them and kill them later with pumas.

@Fought

Than please tell us how can we counter Mass rifleman.

@Milky

And again. MG squads are left alone. MG are useless you can`t take flags with them und finally you will lose Map control because you have to few troops on the ground.

[Dryden]

my point bout Crocodile isnt bout his availability. It is bout chances that you can see it on the battlefield.

[Barneby_Jenkins]

"Than please tell us how can we counter Mass rifleman."

Divide and Conquer, if your opponent is massing rifles on a map like semo than block the southern entrance early with wire and mine it. Then position an mg team in the building with another just north so both mg teams can cover each other from multiple rifle squads. To your west you can wire between the bushes and place an mg team to cover the road entrance. Try to cover 1/2 the map with a minimum amount of mp expenditure. Meanwhile op'ing your medium fuel and capturing your side fuel point.

If he gets rangers or airborne to satchel your mg teams out of the buildings then atleast you prevented him from getting calliopes, by that time you should have atleast some pumas rolling out if you haven't skipped over to ostwinds.

I'm not an expert or anything but that is a simple philosophy that you can try.

[fldash]

Every week it goes back and forth, people screaming that Axis is IMBA then Allies. That just goes to show how balanced the game actually is. Sure, there are a few issues, but absolutely nothing is IMBA or OP. If you think so, then you need to re-evaluate your skill.

[pretzelb]

So help me understand here ... if the problem is the early game and this strat is used by the top players then there's evidence that the top winners are predominately the Allies? If so, what are we talking exactly? Like 60% of the time the Allies win with this strategy? or is it more like 90%?

[ZuppoX]

Hagimann pointed out very well what I've "tried" to tell; but as long as nice reasons miss this doesn't seem to be accepted here in these forums.

Like 60% of the time the Allies win with this strategy? or is it more like 90%?

Where to find such as stats? lol

then you need to re-evaluate your skill.

How do I know that YOU don't need to re-evaluate your skill?

an mg team in the building

Wasn't there another dude who said that he always kills mgs and snipers in buildings with riflemen? <.<

my point bout Crocodile isnt bout his availability. It is bout chances that you can see it on the battlefield.
10-10-2006 02:29 PM

Sherman spam is good enough against everything, and 110 fuel is too expensive to continue the spam.

[irR4tiOn4L]

FL you always seem to say that, but its not quite so clear cut.

The two teams are balanced in the sense that each has almost an equal chance of winning in the hands of very skilled players.

However, while Axis is all about lots of different units coordinating together, and each unit remains balanced and plausible against other units in the Axis lineup, Allies have certain units that are so versatile and can do so much that other Allied units become irrelevant.

This is generally done through abilities and buffs that give units too much versatility - for example -

Allied MG can fire AP bullets, just in case you screwed up and dont have anything else to kill that puma with.

Riflemen get a great light machinegun that can fire on the go, more men than any other squad, effective anti tank weapons and a suppression button, once again, so you dont have to use another type of unit or incase you screwed up and need to win the next infantry fight easily.

Shermans are quite tough and feature very good damage for their gun. But just incase that wasnt enough, upgrading your gun doesnt lower infantry damage like it should and you get a nifty smoke canister that can really turn the odds in favour of your tank, once again, if you screwed up to begin with.

Calliopes are supposed to be a sherman without the better gun, but they seem even tougher to kill. In any case, Calliopes are for when you screwed up and ran out of fuel, and need to quickly get a whole lot of good tanks. They cost only 600mp and you can spawn one every 15 seconds. They also come with a nifty rocket attack that can wipe the floor with anything else, and are different to other artillery pieces because they can protect themselves or assault at the same time. There cheap in any case so you can afford to lose them

Paratroopers and AT guns are the ultimate low maintenance solution. Whatever mistake youve made, say not enough men in an attack, or an unexpected tank, or an infantry assault, you can pop out those paratroopers and AT guns and deal with them in no time. The ultimate way to patch up your mistake.

Air recon is a wonderfully lame way to bomb, strafe and paradrop things to death. Sure its not actually economical to do it, but its a great way to annoy your opponent and break anything that is causing you a problem. The best thing about all types of air attacks is that your opponent can have all the flak in the world, but your planes will generally get through anyway. Even if they dont, theres nothing to stop you trying again, and your opponent has a lot of pop cap spent on 88s or ostwinds.


Now very good players facing off will still have an equal chance at winning, and arguably the two teams are meant to play differently, but the Allies are inherently less fiddly and require less micromanagement, and can patch up mistakes and exploit gaps very quickly due to purposely versatile units.

While a well managed Axis team will easily counter, it does have to be well managed, and mistakes as Axis ussually prove very costly.

This makes playing against allies especially annoying, as that versatility is often leveraged against you in very 'novel' (read rifle/calliope spam) ways while you are trying to use intricate MG setups and tank forces to counter.

Im not saying the Axis are 'cheap tactic' free by any means, but the Allies take that cake, and personally i hate that decision, as i am annoyed both playing WITH or AGAINST them, due to the lack of variety in their strategies.

[Starfisher]

The vast irony of this thread is that for the past month, people have been making posts almost exactly like the above, except laying out why Axis are imbalanced. I know that doesn't mean anything about the actual reality of the game, and it's not meant as a dig against you, irR4tiOn4L, but it does give perspective.

The game is pretty balanced, but like most other games there are a limited number of good strategies to use. That riflespam wins all the time doesn't necessarily indicate that riflespam is imbalanced (it can be beat), only that it's the best strategy for an Allied player. That is an issue in and of itself, but crying imbalance when the real issue is variety might result in unintended side effects.

[Jeopardia_Ferdy]

Yeah! but the most imba of the game in my opinion no one pointed out thus far... a tank (and most of the times its those shermans) kill 2 two men with one shot/hit of a inf squad...leaving axis players with half of the squad dead (grenadiers/stormtroopers) except your trying to kill the tank with volks (LOL) on the otherside every fucking oilrobbing US inf squad has...6 men so they dont bother loosing 2...that makes the game for axis players alot harder...grrrrrrrrrrrr

[Rambocop]

45% of players whine that Axis is imba.
45% of players whine that Allies are imba.
5% of players try to point out that everything has a counter, you just need to practice more but no-one is listening to them.
5% of players watch the rest 95% and laugh.

I guess i am switching between the last two categories, depending on mood.

[Sporky]

Every week it goes back and forth, people screaming that Axis is IMBA then Allies. That just goes to show how balanced the game actually is. Sure, there are a few issues, but absolutely nothing is IMBA or OP. If you think so, then you need to re-evaluate your skill.

Wow somebody here is in denial.


Point about riflemen is that you spam so many of em it starts to become in possible for the axis to just counter them with MG's. If an mg is caught in the open before it is deployed it is rifle bait. If the axis places it in a building, the riflemen can just take an other route and capture points in the axis backline.

The best thing to do is go volks with bikes... but even then they are screwed when the riflemen get bars.

[Barneby_Jenkins]

Hag here is a replay that you should check out, two very good players going at it and the axis player countering rifles and ats.

http://www.gamereplays.org/community...&#entry1778875

Rambocop that is very true.

[xanupox]

allied infantry is getting out of control.

the way the games plays now, the ally player dictates what the axis can build.

000

If the allied goes WSC, then the axis can make MGs as well, have some sniper wars and progress that route. Making mass volks/grends against an ally with WSC at start is stupid, you will just get pinned to death. What can 2 volks do to a garrisoned MG.. nothing.

On the other hand if allied infantry rifles come upon a garrisoned axis MG,just send in the first group to get the MG to shoot at them max range, the ally stops in best cover to keep alive while 2nd ally rifle group flanks and toss 1 grenade into thehouse and kills all the axis mg team.

If ally goes barracks, then axis has to just fucking skirmish and hope they hold onto enough fuel to get some ostwinds out, because sending any infantry out there is death, instant pin in the opend field is so retarded from the BAR.

If the axis player makes mistake of using puma/stugs against 2-3 infantry, the HEATSEEKING sstickybombs will clean that up quick and remind axis how much fuel they just wasted on Sturm Armory and those armor.

So... yeah, this game is getting retarded.... its not so bad when peoeple balance out, but when they just mass one fuckiing unit like infantry, then bring in the callopiee and just bow the fuck out of everyting.... well... I hope to quit playing soon, its waste of my life.

[Barneby_Jenkins]

Volks can handle MGs, when you see allies went WSC choose Blitz and get assault grenades. Plus when he goes WSC he can't challenge your volks in the open field without making a barracks which slows his progress down. If he does put MGs in the open then take your crotchrocket and flank him.

If an axis player leaves one MG team in a house without any support then they deserve to get blown out. If you use Puma's wisely and retreat just enough you can take apart the Rifles while staying out of sticky range. You might take a couple of hits but a Puma can usually withstand 2 stickies, sometimes a third. After they retreat you can repair while the Allies just spent the muns and damage. Plus if you are challenged by an allied ac then you can upgrade to the puma gun and you'll have the advantage of ac's.

Rifles can be great in the early and middle game but towards the end they aren't that effective.

But since it's a waste of your life maybe you should do more constructive things like watching reality TV.

[pretzelb]

Seems like this debate is all over the map. First it's an early game only issue yet I keep seeing references to tanks and other units that are mid to late game.

Maybe it's just me but I think the only way anyone is going to prove an imbalance issue like this is if they can provide some kind of stats that show players who repeatedly win against all other player strats. At the very least you'd need to show that the top winners are always Allied. If it's 50/50 (Allied / Axis) then that would show no real "I win" strat. You do need to assume that the top players will use the strat that has the highest chance of winning.

If you can't get those stats then the only other thing I can think of is having two similarly skilled players go at it and see if the Axis player can overcome this strat. The good thing about what the OP is saying is that it's an early strat that can't be beat. I say this is good because you don't have to play a game until the end to figure out who wins. Going by what I think the OP is saying a player using this strat should overwhelm an equally skilled player quickly and consistently.

[fldash]

Wow somebody here is in denial.


Point about riflemen is that you spam so many of em it starts to become in possible for the axis to just counter them with MG's. If an mg is caught in the open before it is deployed it is rifle bait. If the axis places it in a building, the riflemen can just take an other route and capture points in the axis backline.

The best thing to do is go volks with bikes... but even then they are screwed when the riflemen get bars.

I'm most certainly not in denail. MG42 has a long range. Use a spotter sniper on hold fire. Deploy multiple MGs with overlapping fire. Get out puma covered by MG's. Allied rifle spam is not hard to beat.

[Muse]

Funny, I've been doing just fine as Axis.

Honestly, the only problem I run into is with grenades. I actually played a game not too long ago, where I was playing better than the other dude, but I just kept losing entire infantry squads to single grenades. Even end game, my actual score was way higher, but I still lost ;/

Anywho, yeah. I really haven't run into too many problems except for grenades.

[Naru]

I just don't understand the OP. I play both sides evenly, and honestly, aside from the Allied grenade, I prefer the early game of the Axis.

First, Allied Riflemen cost 270, but Axis MG42s cost 260, having amazing range, and are extremely effective at pinning. They are a game winning coutner to riflemen, and they are CHEAPER.

Allied Egineers cost 140, but Axis Pioneers cost 120.

Axis bunkers cost 150 manpower, and don't have to be upgraded. An emplaced MG42 in an Axis bunker can shot out all four sides, and takes something like 12+ sniper shots to land the three needed to kill it, and several hand grenades. The Allied bunker costs 200 manpower? + 25 fuel, has the same benefits once built.

Finally, Allied riflemen get the hand grenade for 40 fuel + manpower, and the bar for 60 fuel + manpower. In contrast, Axis Volksgrenadiers get the MP40 for 50 munitions, and get to shoot the panzerfaust for 50 munitions per shot, and none of it costs research (escalating is a cost you spend for tanks anyway, not just on infantry aka Allied upgrades).

The bottom line is Axis early units are cheaper. They are also more effective. And you can't get pinned while in a bunker.

The Panzerfaust is more exploitable then the hand grenade. MP40 equipped volksgrenadiers are really only afraid of BAR weilding riflemen, or rangers with Thomsons. So the early game, volks with MP40s are dominant.

Realistically speaking, the Allied player needs 100 fuel to get the BAR because he needs to get grenades first to take out garrisoned MG42s, and there are ALWAYS garrisoned MG42s. This means that for the first and most critical minutes of the game, the Volksgrenadiers can win every volks vs. riflemen fight by running up on top of them (which prevents grenades, too).

The problem comes in for the Axis when they are passing on building up their infantry defense and instead fast teching to armor. There is a window there where Allied troops will be stronger, but this is mostly because the Axis player will have passed over the Krieg's barracks and amazingly effective anti-infantry items such as mortars and halftracks. This is not a game balance issue, this is a strategy issue. Axis player wants Pumas, he's willing to gamble.

The Allied strategy is effectively to pusnish Axis fast techers. The Axis fast techers rather then adjust their strategy and take the same bet to fit longer with infanatry and build more bunkers, scream imba because they WANT to fast tech every game. I am unsympathetic.

[Sporky]

allied infantry is getting out of control.

the way the games plays now, the ally player dictates what the axis can build.

000

If the allied goes WSC, then the axis can make MGs as well, have some sniper wars and progress that route. Making mass volks/grends against an ally with WSC at start is stupid, you will just get pinned to death. What can 2 volks do to a garrisoned MG.. nothing.

On the other hand if allied infantry rifles come upon a garrisoned axis MG,just send in the first group to get the MG to shoot at them max range, the ally stops in best cover to keep alive while 2nd ally rifle group flanks and toss 1 grenade into thehouse and kills all the axis mg team.

If ally goes barracks, then axis has to just fucking skirmish and hope they hold onto enough fuel to get some ostwinds out, because sending any infantry out there is death, instant pin in the opend field is so retarded from the BAR.

If the axis player makes mistake of using puma/stugs against 2-3 infantry, the HEATSEEKING sstickybombs will clean that up quick and remind axis how much fuel they just wasted on Sturm Armory and those armor.

So... yeah, this game is getting retarded.... its not so bad when peoeple balance out, but when they just mass one fuckiing unit like infantry, then bring in the callopiee and just bow the fuck out of everyting.... well... I hope to quit playing soon, its waste of my life.

You just said everything I was thinking. Thank you.

[FootKnight]

Every high allied player uses mass rifleman. Its the first RTS that i know where such a stupid and unskilled tactic has so much success. The allied player builds two Rifle Squads or one Rifle and one jeep and his no problems with volks because his rifleman are cheaper (270 to 280) are one more men and are faster to build (if you take the right tree).If the allied takes the building you can nothing do with the germans.

But its getting better. The BAR is one of the best weapon in the game. you can pin down volks in one second, yes one second (bunker and MG squads need 4-5 seconds) so how imba is this.

You consider 2 squads or 1 squad and a jeep spamming riflemen?! That seems like a normal barraks build to me. So, in your opinion would have nothing but engineers and a barracks down be the only build order that isn't spamming riflemen? They need something to counter your volks/bikes/mgs/snipers, are they allowed to build anything?!
They are a whole 10 MP cheaper (but engineers are 20 MP more expensive than pioneers), and only build faster if you go for a certain tree, in which, you can't get the ability immediately, it's not like you start with 1 CP.
It's not like BARs are free. They have to spend 200 manpower and 60 fuel to get them in the first place, and then another 40 ammo every time they want to use the suppressive fire ability.
Seriously, a few well placed MG42s can stop all the riflemen spam in the world, you are obviously just not placing them correctly...

2. Ranger/Rifleman/Airborne

I don`t know why allied players are afraid of tanks. The allied has sticky bombs (never saw a sticky bomb falling to the ground, but so several panzerfaust missing there target) und bazookas (two of them) for his ranger/airborne. The airborne have TNT the granadiere only handgrandes.

Panzerfaust (Cost 50 Ammo)
- sometimes miss
- never took out the engine
- do much less damage than SB

Sticky Bombs (Cost 50 Ammo)
- always hit
- disable nearly always the engine
- do much more damage even against heavy tanks

Rangers can't hit crap with bazookas, not really a big threat. Paratroopers have to be in thier own connected territory to get Recoilless Rifles, which are great against tanks, but really the only American Infantry based Anti-Tank (not including AT guns, which are not considered "infantry" by the game).
Sticky Bomb have to be researched as well. 80 MP and 25 Fuel, plus the 35 Ammo to throw one and do good damage against tanks and destory engines because the Americans have no infantry based AT, they have to slow the tanks down to get AT guns enough time to destroy them. Panzerfausts are: Great against infantry, Good against Light vehicles, OK against tanks. By the time they have tanks out you should have Stugs or tanks out and have AT guns or Grens with Shreks.

Is this imba enough ? But have much more.

AT-Gun. With the option it shoot armor piercing granates. With this Option a Puma or Stug is dead in seconds and even Panther und Tiger geht enough damage. Is this Option for one Shot? No its for 10 Seconds (2-3 Shots). Regarding the damage a panzerfaust does and the damage a AT-Gun with enabled armor piercing rounds does its a joke that both cost 50 Ammo. The AT Gun option must at least cost 100 better 150 Ammo. The AT Gun has also a much to far shooting range and the granades fly in curves (yes no joke) so you can`t escape with your tank. Regarding this I can`t understand why Allied players are so afraid of german Tanks.

Germans have AT guns as well... That can camo. Plus they have Grens with Shreks, which can circle around a tank, plus Stugs are cheap and come early.

The next part is the tank barrier (don`t know if it is called liked that in german its called "Panzersperre").
The allied can produce them for free. But how can the german destroy them ? Even a goliath which is the best explosiv the germans can buy, only suffer 1/4 damage on ONE tank barrier. Tanks need even longer (12-15 shots from a panther). A Tiger can roll over the barrier but first, if you play defense tree you have no tiger and second the most games are over before you can call a tiger. On the other side the allied player can equip his Sherman with a bulldozer and destroys the German tank barrier.

Yeah, tank traps are a big problem for Germans right now. I think Panthers should be able to crush them again. Maybe with a cheap upgrade or something.

The Croc is 110 bloody fuel, not cheap at all, and I don't think anyone actually builds these unless they have to, because a regular Sherman is usually a better idea.


Later in the thread you talk about rifleman killing MGs with grenades. Well first off, you don't ALWAYS have to have an unspported MG in a building. Either support the damn thing or keep it outside where it can't be easily flanked. Secondly, if the American player is getting BARs, Sticky Bombs, and Grenades for his riflemen, he sure as hell isn't teching anytime soon, giving you a nice advantage. That's 380 MP and 125 Fuel in the early game, plus the squads of riflemen. If you can get a squad of volks or even a camoed sniper back behind his lines and start cutting off or decapping his ammo points, he's not going to be able to use these abilities a lot either.

[Naru]

the way the games plays now, the ally player dictates what the axis can build...

Meaning... while the Allies have to dedicate themselves to acertain tactic based on weather they picked a WSC or a Barracks, the Axis have the luxary of waiting to see what the Allies do, and adjust to it by altering their build order because the Axis Wermacht produces more, critical early game units/coutners from one structure. I'd say, advantage Axis, here.

[Sporky]

Meaning... while the Allies have to dedicate themselves to acertain tactic based on weather they picked a WSC or a Barracks, the Axis have the luxary of waiting to see what the Allies do, and adjust to it by altering their build order because the Axis Wermacht produces more, critical early game units/coutners from one structure. I'd say, advantage Axis, here.

Sure, wait.
That will get you the resources you need to change your build order...

[Timeless]

I find that before anyone knew what they were doing, it was mostly noobs that played large team games that complained about Axis being too powerful. I've been having conversations on voice about this since beta. The complaints were about Axis tanks, but the only tanks that I would see mentioned were the Ostwind, Tiger, LATE game tier4 crap that you must first get to. In large team games, it's easier to get there, but then there's the debate on the ALlied War Machine.

I find that most people that say Riflemen spam is a walk in the park to beat, don't play ladder or have very few ladder games to speak of. Their experience is limited to rather mediocre players or large team games where the dynamics are different as it takes units longer to cross the map, you have allied support and it's harder to take crucial points from the enemy until late game. How many have faced a skilled riflemen spammer that knows how to use a jeep to flank the mg and goes for fast nades to blow him out the building. I'm talking in the first few minutes of the game. I have. I also know it's not as simple as some of you make it sound. Sure, the allies are not a for sure win option, neither are riflemen, or I wouldn't have 35 games with only 9 losses on the ladder. But it's an issue - a big one. There is simply no denying that.

I think (and I'll prob make a seperate thread on this) that Riflemen BAR should suppress, not immediately pin. The MG doesn't even immediately pin. In fact, many Allies have figured out that even while suppressed, they can continue to crawl forward until in range to throw a grenade. Axis don't even get this option. We must simply retreat, over and over.

[FootKnight]

After reading Timeless' post, I should probably clear something up.

I'm not trying to say riflemen spam is easy to beat at all. It can be devestating with the right player behind it, but it does have counters, you just have to work them correctly. Although the guy who started the thread was saying that 2 riflemen squads or 1 squad and 1 jeep is riflemen spam ("mass riflemen"), does anyone else think that that is in fact mass riflemen? I could be on the wrong page here, but that doesn't seem like a mass at all to me, just a normal thing to build if you go barracks first, you need to have SOMETHING built to fight.

[Timeless]

No, I'm talking about a game that ends with the Allied player having made 7-10 Riflmen and little else, except maybe Calliopes to seal the deal. I find the energy, thought, micro and overall intensity one must put into fighting just this one unit when used by anyone with skill far out weighs the effort it takes the Allied player. Sure, it can be beaten, "duh" MGs with proper micro, supported by volks, is part of the solution. But that doesn't mean the effing unit doesn't need to be toned down a bit.

[GrimgorkGalle]

The game is pretty balanced, but like most other games there are a limited number of good strategies to use. That riflespam wins all the time doesn't necessarily indicate that riflespam is imbalanced (it can be beat), only that it's the best strategy for an Allied player. That is an issue in and of itself, but crying imbalance when the real issue is variety might result in unintended side effects.

Oh, is that so? I'm not whining about Allies beeing OP, but if Rifleman Spam (which is annoying) is the best strategy for that game, what Strategy Game is CoH then? Spamming the first buildable infantry unit is a good strategy? Jeeze!
I can understand people "crying" (as you call that as a moderator) because CoH was surely not meant to be a "spam one thing" RTS, they want to use the whole possibilties of gear the game offers. And not all of them are as good as most of the "good" players here in the forum. So should they quit Multiplayer? Quit the game?

I personally have no problems with that Rifleman-Spam (or HT-, Engy-Rush), but as I am confronted with it, it annoys me a lot. And I am sure I am not the only one...

[FootKnight]

This is a response to Timeless... Grimgork got in there before me.

OK, just wanted to make sure that we were agreeing that riflemen spam is more than that.

I think there needs to be something done about the riflemen spam, but it will be complicated. I'm not sure about what you mean by toning down riflemen, but if you mean that the unit themselves need to be nerfed, I have to disagree. It is the only infantry Americans get (outside of spending 3 CPs in Infantry or Airborne Doctrines), they need to be versatile and useful the entire game. If that's not what you mean, well, ignore that comment then.
I think maybe moving some of the barracks research up a tier would help (BARs for instance). Make the American player have to build a Supply Yard or maybe just a WSC to make BARs. Having a supply yard might push it too far back to be useful, but a WSC might slow it down enough to give the German player a better chance in the very early game. Would have to be play tested though.

[Timeless]

Read my suggestion at the end of my first post in this thread. Maybe fix BARS so they only suppress and don't pin, this way units can still finish capping a point, throw a grenade, something other than lie on their bellies and wait for death. That is simply too fricking powerful an ability, insta pin, forcing constant retreats and eventually owning the map.

And to Naru's comment about Axis having the luxury of simply waiting for a doctrine, lol. 90% of all Axis players typically go with terror as the other trees are simply lackluster. Nearly all the trees Allies get are very good and compliment a variety of strategies. I say this, even though I'm starting to fall in love with Blitz doctrine for the Assault ability and the speed ability down on the bottom right side. These are amazing abilities, but the rest of the tree leaves much to be desired.

[Demon_Eyes]

Axis doesn't even need doctrines, they get everything they need from their basic tech line, allies need company abilities to supplement gaps. As far as precedence, axis have a much more flexible opening strategy available than allies due to the split of units between two buildings in allied basic tech tree. MG42/Volks/BMW openers are very strong.

[Naru]

I didn't say the Axis can wait for a doctrine. I said the Axis can wait to see what type of building their Allied oppoent decided to go with first, WSC or Barracks. This is contrast to what the Allied players faces, which is MG42s, snipers, motorbikes, and Volks, all from the same buidling. While the Allied player needs to commit to a strategy of picking one of his specialized buildings first, say the barracks, and then is restricted to the units there in, the Axis player has the luxary of building his Wermacht, and then simply altering his build order as needed on a more granular level. The acusation was the power was in the Allies in determining how the Axis must build their units, but I am arguing that the power is in the Axis hands, because the Axis player's postion is ultimately more flexible, always able to build what he needs when he needs to build it.

As for 90% of players going Terror, this is a gross and unfounded guess, by you, of which you have no evidence. This is not to say Terror isn't powerful 1v1, or that higher ladder players are not using it. It is to say only that the "90%" value you are pulling from your hat, is not based in fact. It just "seems" that way to you, and you have no factual evidence evidence for it other then your gut. Personally, I don't really trust your gut evaluation, based on how you see other things.

What are the facts? The facts are there are many successful Axis players earning high rank, thus winning games vs. Allies, despite the alleged gross imbalance of riflemen which exist in every game of CoH played, as riflemen are so common they can even spring from a forward barracks even if you didn't build a barracks back at your base. How can these Axis players be winning, given top ladder players all have similar skills sets?

Maybe...just maybe, the Axis have some tools to win, as suggested by other players in this thread? I'll give you it's not enough of a toolset to garuntee victory vs. riflespam, in fact, you might only win half the games you play ...and guess what? That's balance.

[Timeless]

Don't trust my gut? Perhaps I don't trust that you've played enough good players on ladder to make the claims you do. I never said it's unwinnable. I said it takes more effort. And that, thankfully, not every player does the full on infantry spam assault. Based on your arguments, as long as each side has high level players, there can be no real imbalance to speak about, nothing glaring anyway. Hell, in WC3, there must have never been imbalance as each race had top players. Go figure.

I'm suggesting the unit is too powerful with bar and that while it can be beaten, it often either takes mistakes from the opponent or the opponent must play much harder to defeat it. It's easy to make judgements and write out pretty little articles. Try playing against it for a while. Because when I had only a few ladder games under my belt or when I was primarily playing custom games against random schmucks, I had no idea and might have been caught making lofty "theory" craft statements.

[Painboy]

Being that I don't see many threads about Volks spam or grenadier spam or anything about axis infantry "totally owning" allied infantry and I see many many threads about allied infantry being too powerful, I have to say there is an obvious trend here.

Rifleman currently can do just about everything in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. They can kill MGs with grenades, suppress and kill infantry, and perform anti-tank duties as well. They are a viable option throughout the entire game. As such there is little reason not too buy them in large numbers.

On the flipside the Axis can get the MG and Volks together. The MG can hold a spot for a short time but not against a smart player. Just getting more won't solve the problem since they become almost useless once the tanks start rolling leaving you with wasted units. Volks are pretty good infantry but if you have a lot of them the Allies will just upgrade to BARs and the Volks become very difficult to use properly. Same goes for any Axis infantry really. Unlike an MG you can't flank a BAR very well. So if he has three squads he can suppress three different directions at once. Yeah it costs ammo but since all your forces can do is retreat he can get all the map control and ammo he needs.

Yes you can beat the Allies with the Axis. Riflespam isn't an insta win but the Axis player is going to have to play a much more mistake free game than the Allied player currently will. Of course that is just from my experiences as well as most of the replays I have seen.

[Timeless]

Yea and in most replays, you don't see the kind of Riflemen spam being talked about in this thread. Ever watch the Seph vs HERO replay were Seph had 10 riflemen? How about the second one where HERO got wise and poured out tons of his own infantry. IT was a bloodbath. Yet, he still lost. I can play several games and only see moderate Riflemen spam where the players also mix in a tech of fast HT rush or ACs or even fast Tank Depot. This isn't what is being discussed here and unless you experience it first hand, it's all too easy to make claims on how balanced or easy it is and pretend you're just so much better than anyone that considers this an issue worth addressing.

[Sporky]

Yea and in most replays, you don't see the kind of Riflemen spam being talked about in this thread. Ever watch the Seph vs HERO replay were Seph had 10 riflemen? How about the second one where HERO got wise and poured out tons of his own infantry. IT was a bloodbath. Yet, he still lost. I can play several games and only see moderate Riflemen spam where the players also mix in a tech of fast HT rush or ACs or even fast Tank Depot. This isn't what is being discussed here and unless you experience it first hand, it's all too easy to make claims on how balanced or easy it is and pretend you're just so much better than anyone that considers this an issue worth addressing.

Amen to that.
'nuff said

[KlavoHunter]

I just don't understand the OP. I play both sides evenly, and honestly, aside from the Allied grenade, I prefer the early game of the Axis.

First, Allied Riflemen cost 270, but Axis MG42s cost 260, having amazing range, and are extremely effective at pinning. They are a game winning coutner to riflemen, and they are CHEAPER.

And are nowhere near as mobile. If those rifles encounter your MG42, they're going to run away and find somewhere else to press you on, and steal a point from you. Or flank your MG42 outside of its range and charge in from the side. To counter THAT, you have to have a second MG42, and therefore he has a second rifle squad.

Allied Egineers cost 140, but Axis Pioneers cost 120.

Allied Engineers get 1 more guy for only 20 more MP than a Pioneers unit. I wouldn't call that an "advantage" for the Germans...

[TheDeadlyShoe]

And are nowhere near as mobile. If those rifles encounter your MG42, they're going to run away and find somewhere else to press you on, and steal a point from you. Or flank your MG42 outside of its range and charge in from the side. To counter THAT, you have to have a second MG42, and therefore he has a second rifle squad.

yeah, but first they're gonna get supressed and have a few chunks taken out of em while they retreat.

[Alcorr]

Only Sherman Crocodile can destroy tank traps.

Can't the allies use a cheap demo charge on tank traps?

And I agree about the riflemen spam + calliope call in, its nigh unbeatable if done right.

[Demon_Eyes]

Riflmen aren't significantly more mobile than an MG42 team, in order to flank a MG you need more squads, which due to cost makes that very difficult until other factors come in to play. Engineers and pioneers are very close to equal for cost effectiveness despite their base stats, pioneers are a smaller squad but that also means better initial capping dispersion and can take on engineers despite their smaller size if they are placed in sufficient cover.

[Alcorr]

Riflmen aren't significantly more mobile than an MG42 team, in order to flank a MG you need more squads, which due to cost makes that very difficult until other factors come in to play. Engineers and pioneers are very close to equal for cost effectiveness despite their base stats, pioneers are a smaller squad but that also means better initial capping dispersion and can take on engineers despite their smaller size if they are placed in sufficient cover.

Well yes and no. To flank a garrisoned MG, you need a second rifleman squad to come from the side and throw a nade, but an open MG in open ground can be flanked by one riflemen squad, you just have to know where the MG is ahead of time.

Also, engineers are far superior to pioneers especially for thier cost. Even in equal cover it seems engineers almost always win by a long shot vs. my pioneers.

[Pin]

Volks upgraded with MP40s (50 munitions so cheap) absolutely own unupgraded riflemen. I dont see the problem with "early" game allies, as they have to pay 60 fuel for the browning. 60 fuel is NOT a cheap price, and its not a price the allies can afford if you've been raping them with MP40s and MGs.

I noticed that all of the complaining about allies is based on munitions-based abilities. Maybe you should just stop letting your opponent control the entire map?

[Alcorr]

Volks upgraded with MP40s (50 munitions so cheap) absolutely own unupgraded riflemen. I dont see the problem with "early" game allies, as they have to pay 60 fuel for the browning. 60 fuel is NOT a cheap price, and its not a price the allies can afford if you've been raping them with MP40s and MGs.

I noticed that all of the complaining about allies is based on munitions-based abilities. Maybe you should just stop letting your opponent control the entire map?

By the time axis spends 200/35 for tier 2 and 50 munitions for mp40s, the allied player can easily spend 60 fuel on bar, grenades and sticky as, due to calliope, there is not much reason to build supply depot or motor pool or tank depot as calliope is the answer to everything.