[DC 1.51] Misinformation about the Chaos Lord and DC

[Aribaren]

Lately in the balance threads I've witnessed a great deal of misinformation concerning matchups between the CL and other heroes. Some claims that were made in the balance forums:

1) The Slow Poison ability isnt in the game anymore/has been nerfed into oblivion.

2) The necron lord beats the CL in a solo fight with over 50% health left.

3) The farseer defeats the chaos lord with ease using mind war in a solo fight.

Now obviously anyone who plays chaos can see the implications of this. After testing though, I cant seem to reproduce those claims. In my tests, the CL is just as much of a monster as he ever was.

Before seeing the labs I posted, please bear in mind:

-All fight are held solo, in a vaccum, at tier 1 w/ no commander upgrades. The reason being that for most matchups (save the NL, which is a special case), upgrading both heroes only further increases the gap between them and the CL.

-IMO, solo hero fights are only truely significant in a tier 1 scenario, because of the different composition present in tier 2/3 forces.

Results:

CL vs. NL:
The CL wins this one fairly easily. Heck, he wins it with a nice chink of health left. At least in tier 1, this matchup heavily favors the CL.

CL vs. FS:
Again, heavily skewed towards the CL, even with mind war. Maybe creative use of FoF could turn the tides, but in a straight up fight, the result is clear.

Conclusion:
Can anyone back up the original statements about how the CL hot hit with the nerf stick? Maybe im doing something really wrong?

PS: Apparently according to Sir Nick, the Slow poison was nerfed to 50% proc rate. Still, it doesnt seem to change much in the grand scale of things.

[Kargard]

Necron lord will win if equipped with the lightning thingie. By alot.

[fall3n96]

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Can he get that that lightning upgrade in tier one? If not, then Chaos players can upgrade their hero, which should put CL back on top in terms of damage and maybe HP as well, not sure though. Then upgrade him again, get furious charge, and every other hero is meat (in my experience).

[Chris]

These tests have been done by people over at DoWSanctuary and their findings match yours.

[Troubleshooter]

Good. Now how about them grey knights

Seriously... thanx for saving me the time to test this under fire - probably saved me a game or 2.

Good work.

[fall3n96]

Speaking of the Gray Knights, has anyone found a way for Chaos to counter them effectively? The only thing that seems to work for me is one or two zerker squads covered with HB fire from CSM (Tier 2) or a PSM squad with Plasma fire from CSM (Tier 3). Using CL seems to be a massive no-no. Thats alot of units to devote to one tier 2 squad, is there anything that seems to work better?

[santiago4ever]

CSMs with frags and/or Sorceror with Chains should be able to handle the GKs right?

[Durandal]

how about chains of torment and a nice obliterator squad gunning them down? afterall if you tried PSM which are T3 unit you may want to try Oblits now since they actually are a proper unit after the damage boost their weapons got.just a thought

[eXarchProXy]

The chaos lord will win to a farseer with mindwar with only about 50 HP left.

I have a replay if anybody wants to see it.

that's pretty drastic

CSMs with frags and/or Sorceror with Chains should be able to handle the GKs right?

Unless the marines use frags first.
Or you don't have the chains upgrade.
Or the greyknights rush your sorcrer with their speed and pwn him with their free spell.
Or the Chaplain uses his spell on the chaos marines and the SM use their frags and the grey knights rush the sorcer........ect ect ect.

Simply put SM has more options off the bat to counter anything chaos has to throw at it.

Chaos only has counter solution after more expensive upgrades in late t3.

And then SM only has to remake their cheaper GKs to kill a BT or use a landraider preds to kill a DP.

[Aribaren]

exarchproxy:

I used mind war in the replays. The CL still won with over 200 hp left. Perhaps some other factor will influence it? maybe you should post that replay, i'd like to see it.

Kargard:

That's only after the Archives. Note that its not particularly cheap to research either, and it only works when you get meleed. These labs are only in context of tier 1 anyway.

fall3n96:

IMHO: Grey knights cost a fortune, and are not commanders, they're regular heavy infantry. Any sort of concentration of ranged firepower will destroy them in tier 2. They are a large investment power wise, and not a very good cost effective counter to anything except daemons. IMO they're not nearly as overpowered as they are made out to be.

[Grov]

Who does everyone says the CL is such a beast in WA? The Big Mek owns him, and the FC.

[MoschBoy]

Who does everyone says the CL is such a beast in WA? The Big Mek owns him, and the FC.

bullshit. the CL obliberates the BM in a 1vs1, and even with sluggas attached, the CL has the tendency of targetting the BM and kill him. and the CL kills the FC too...though its a lot closer than in the CL - BM matchup.

[Centurion]

Has anyone labbed a Daemon Prince with all the upgrades against a Necron Lord with all upgrades and three built Monoliths?

Before the release, I just assumed that the DP would be the strongest commander, but I'm not so sure anymore after reading how awesome the NL is.

[Kargard]

So how about when you use both mind war and psychic storm on CL?

[The Apd]

Noob question, what is Slow Poison to begin with? I've always been a Chaos player and I suppose it's a bit sad I don't even know the full extent of the CL's powers XD

[Infernoblaze]

Now THAT'S a fight I'd like to see. The CL should beat all the other heroes, it's how he should be with the power of chaos (obviously not the uber heroes and the Warboss)

[TheDeadlyShoe]

The original Chaos Lord is equipped with a nurgle-ey scythe deal. When CLs hit something their speed is dropped by a ton.

[REAV3R]

Who does everyone says the CL is such a beast in WA? The Big Mek owns him, and the FC.

Are you kidding me, I have always played Chaos and a CL can WTFPWN a BM anyday of the week.

[Dominare]

Has anyone labbed a Daemon Prince with all the upgrades against a Necron Lord with all upgrades and three built Monoliths?

I'd like to see that one, although afaik 'all the upgrades' can mean a few different things with the necron lord. Also the prince should be able to open the fight with his roar, breaking the necron lord instantly, it'd be interesting to see how that affected the outcome

[KradDiher]

Once in Mortalis, I attacked the FC with my CL, eventually the FC commander got backed up by a SM squad. My CL won without a question. A second SM squad was draining his HP though. I had to bail him out after killing the FC and a SM squad with only 20 HP left or something.

[The_sleeper1]

eXarchProXy, I would like to see that replay.

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The GK free spell can be nice it kills gretchen’s right away but most creatures take a bit to kill with it so you can move out of the effect and take no more damage. The best thing about it is that you force someone to move a unit or let it die so it really it is more like a disruption spell when used versus ranged units and all but useless versus melee ones.

It does have one SWEET use, to kill infiltrated units.

[purge383]

Necron lord will win if equipped with the lightning thingie. By alot.

Yes he will, but Forbidden archives = 150 power and the lightning power is at least another 100 which is expensive at the beginning of the game. If you go with that you would be slow on getting wraiths out or teching to tier 2.

purge383

[Grov]

Nope. Whenever i play the BM seems to chop my CL down to about 80% and the BM still has health left, so i retreat him. In skirmish this is btw.

[Chris]

In Winter Assault the lord has higher damage than the mek due to poison and he has about 300hp more it's a no brainer the mek loses every time in a 1vs1 against a lord it's been tested 101 times, even without the poison the lord still has a significant hitpoint advantage.

[ZeronX]

I find that the new CL get's mowed down very quickly by guns...

[fall3n96]

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I actually havent had that problem, at least not to the extent where the CL would fail to survice in a cross-fire he couldnt have survived in WA. Survivability wasnt ever really the issue for me, it was the lowered DPS that bothered me, as he was the crux of any Tier 1 strat in WA.

[MoschBoy]

Nope. Whenever i play the BM seems to chop my CL down to about 80% and the BM still has health left, so i retreat him. In skirmish this is btw.

the BM NEVER was able to beat the CL on his own. in vanilla DoW he was able to if a slugga squad was attached to him, in WA the BM cant beat the CL. playing the wrong game?

[n0z3k1ll3r]

The Necron Lord gets some hideous buffs as the game progresses. With 3 fully upgraded monoliths he has something like 6000 hp. That's probably where the NL > CL thing comes from.

[Aquma]

Basicly,NL is a little different type of hero,so i don't think coparing them in a solo fight would lead to anything.NL is more concentrated on affecting the battle's outcome and boosting his troops abilities.Even though his HP goes to over 6000 (pure madness), his damage output stays at puny 133 or so.

With Lightning shield he's much more deadly though,and with Veil he's also invisible, which may prove difficult for most commander units.

Also,remember that a fully upgreded Lord also means Nightbringer transformation,which means 2 mins of invincibility and 440 max damage and healing his own hp with the damage done.

So,taking this all into account,i would say NL>DP,but it's still a matter of disscussion.

[Trajan]

The Necron Lord gets some hideous buffs as the game progresses. With 3 fully upgraded monoliths he has something like 6000 hp. That's probably where the NL > CL thing comes from.

Well . . . actually, the NL > CL thing might have come from me, guilty as charged. I made the claim, and then labbed it out, and as others have found, the CL can beat the NL at Tier1, with ~25% health left, so I'm retracting that claim.

Tier3 is a different story; CL is annoying at Tier3, but the NL can become an absolute monster. Sure, he still does limited damage, but there's something extremely annoying about a unit that's not terribly expensive taking insane amounts of damage to kill.

[hiteche5]

@Trajan...

Yea the NL does become pretty awesome with all of his upgrades for the price but on the other hand I think the Necrons depend on the NL more in tier 2 and 3 then Chaos depends on the CL in tier 2 and 3.

For the Necrons the NL is basically a walking armory. All of the cool abilites come from him to complement thier army. Cl is and remains a hero nuker until you get the DP upgrade.