[1.2 Balance] Axis Upgrades

[Virigoth]

Everything but the armor and first weapon team upgrades from Kampkraft center is so... limp.

There is no way to actuly afford these upgrades in 1vs1 games as they are. Should the fuel costs of the various upgrade types not be uniform to reflect the time of their usefulness and the actual effect?

For example if the first infantry upgrade buffs the HP of the unit and the second one makes it auto-heal and the third counter crack/elite units of the enemy. Then first upgrade should be dirt cheap (15 fuel?), second slightly more expensive (20?) and the final very expensive (60).

[Timeless]

Interesting points.

[Busby]

There more expensive then that, the second one costs 50 fuel (as much as a StuG!) and the first one costs something like 25. However the Allies get veterans for free almost as soon as they kill something.

[PrinceMyshkin]

Let alone we don't have any documentation regarding these upgrades. As far as I know they promised to give us some feedback in the next patch. Let's see.

I cant really judge, because I don't know exactly what are the effects of these upgrades.

[DudeWhersMyTank]

the effects now are for axis infantry:

level 1: you've wasted fuel that could have gone into a vehicle
level 2: you've wasted more precious fuel
level 3: you've wasted all your fuel and will soon be overun by elite shermans who've been killing your elite infantry

[Victrix Legio]

Yes, it's fairly clear that the KKC and purchased veterancy were supposed to be major features of the Axis army, and yet the upgrades are so expensive and the effects are typically so lackluster that there's no point in ever spending the resources on them in a 1v1 match in lieu of simply purchasing more units. If the veterancy upgrades are ever to be considered viable resource investments outside of team games they will need to be buffed in terms of effectiveness and have their costs changed, possibly even raising them in certain cases if the upgrades are improved enough. Personally, I'd like to see the KKC serve as a choice for Axis players on how they wish to play; they can either skip it altogether or purchase only the first level of upgrades and go for a larger army that will be less susceptible to combat losses, can stand against an Allied army man for man, and would require less micro, or they can go all the way with it and have a smaller, elite army that requires constant attention but also performs more effectively if used properly.

[Virigoth]

I think the armored upgrades are a good indicator of how they should be setup. The actual fuel upgrade costs for armor units match fairly well what I would be willing to pay for each upgrade.

However the same fuel costs which are fine for late game T3 and T4 armor do not scale down to infantry, weapon teams or light armor.

There is no way I'm going to spend 100+ fuel for infantry upgrades when I could have 3 pumas for that for example. So a good idea is to scale down some of the other upgrades so they see some use.

I do not see Relic putting in the effort required to make each of the 12 upgrades distinct or more powerful etc. I think a more realistic approach would be to adjust each upgrade cost to match is effectivness in a game.

[Demon_Eyes]

The infantry upgrades possibly* overlap with the weapons team ugprades, if they simply did not cost as much they would be much more viable, the first one is inexpensive but after that it gets pretty pricey when you add them up.

*edit: this is from buggo's post on upgrades, as per Victrix post the code doesn't appear to do this, unless shown otherwise assume that the upgrades do not overlap.

[Timeless]

How can they overlap if when Axis get tier1 infantry vet upgrade and only the infantry affected get the little dot indicating veterancy? The mgs/mortars don't indicate they've been been upgraded at all. Unless this is a bug, I assume it was simply a typo including MGs in the list of infantry upgrades. Nevertheless, only a fool would think tier1 infantry upgrade is worth it for 200mp/60ish fuel when that could buy you tier3 - yea, you'll have a very slight regen, congratulations on that when a fast Sherman comes and 1-2 hit kills all your infantry or allied Riflmen are pounding you to bits. That slow ass regen isn't going to do crap for you that an extra unit and tier3 wouldn't do in spades much better. I'd much rather just reinforce my injured units and be done with it.

[Victrix Legio]

The statements by Buggo concerning Infantry Veterancy also affecting HMG42s and Mortar Teams were most likely made in error, as the way veterancy upgrades works code-wise prevent such overlap.

[Demon_Eyes]

Victrix, can you copy down some of the code on that to a PM to me or in a code tagged reply in this thread. Just curious as I don't have access to the code right now however I am very familiar with the decompiled LUA and SCAR but Buggo was getting her data from Relic so I am wondering if this was an error, mistatement or if there is possibly something missing. Good example being the obliterator weapon file in DoW/WA that took a while to determine how exactly it worked even from those who were proficient LUA and SCAR.

[Timeless]

Imo, logic indicates it's a typo, though that could be a mistake. You see no indication of MGs being upgraded when you upgrade basic infantry, yet the pioneers and volks show that indication.

[Demon_Eyes]

There are often hidden or cross referenced files (hard to explain without a code example) in relic's code that can be diffcult to identify and track as well as that the GUI notations are not always accurate, I can give you a ton of examples in DoW code of such instances.

[Victrix Legio]

Alright, let's get cracking, but first a word on how Axis veterancy upgrades operate for those who don't know already: Axis units, like Allied units, level up in veterancy when they reach a certain experience threshold, the only difference being that level ups for Axis units occur at 100, 200, and 300 exp. as opposed to 8, 16, and 32 for Allied units. It is technically possible for Axis units to level up like Allied units, but the experience required is so astronomical that one is unlikely to ever see it occur in anything other than a team game. All Axis veterancy upgrades at the KKC actually do is give the appropriate units an extra 100 experience points; the actual effects of veterancy are stored within the units' SBPS files and have nothing to do with the upgrades at the KKC.

Here's the relevant info for a veterancy upgrade (they all behave the same way) in (shortened) code form:

veteran_infantry_1.rgd
-GameData
--upgrade_bag
---actions
----action_01:squad_type:grenadier_squad.lua
----action_02:squad_type: pioneer_squad.lua
----action_03:squad_type:stormtrooper_squad.lua
----action_04:squad_type:knights_cross_holder.lua
----action_05:squad_type:officer_squad.lua
----action_06:squad_type:volksgrenadier_squad.lua
(following is applicable for all above actions)
-----action_table
------upgrade_actions
-------action_01:number_of_experience_points:100

Since I don't feel like being here all night, I'll just say that
the weapons teams upgrade does the same thing for HMG42s, Mortars, Snipers, Nebelwerfers, Pak38s, and 88s, vehicles does the same thing for Pumas, HTs, and Motorcycles, and armor does the same thing for Ostwinds, Panthers, Panzer IVs, StuG IVs, Tigers, and StuH42s. The armor upgrade also effects the Tiger Ace as well, but his first vet. level is set at 9999, so he never receives any veterancy effects.

As an example of how veterancy effects work, here's the relevant info for HMG42s in (shortened) code form:

heavy_machine_gun_section.rgd
-GameData
--squad_veterancy_ext
---veterancy_rank_info
----veterancy_rank_01
-----experience_value:100
------squad_actions
-------action_01
--------modifiers
---------modifier_01: accuracy_weapon_modifer.lua, type:multiplication, value:1.25
---------modifier_02: reload_weapon_modifier.lua, type:multiplication, value:0.75

----veterancy_rank_02
-----experience_value:200
------squad_actions
-------action_01:change_weapon_target_type:tp_infantry_rifleman_elite (from tp_infantry)

----veterancy_rank_03
-----experience_value:300
------squad_actions
-------action_01
--------modifiers
---------modifier_01:health_maximum_modifier, type:multiplication, value:1.2

So, that's 125% accuracy and 75% reload time for vet level 1, upgrade to armor type rifleman elite for vet level 2, and 120% maximum health at vet level 3. The effects for level 2 and 3 are the same as those for infantry, but HMG42s will not level up when infantry veterancy is researched, only when weapons team is researched. Mortars, and for that matter all units, are setup exactly the same way in regards to how veterancy effects are defined for them, though obviously the effects may be different for certain units. Apologies for all of this being a tad unsightly and not giving a full copy, but copy/paste doesn't appear to work in Corsix's mod tools and I value my sanity.

[Timeless]

Sounds like MG upgrades are worth it, if you can fit it in wout gimping your tech. Tier1 infantry upgrade is a joke, though.

[Victrix Legio]

Pretty much, yes. I'm still in favor of buffing Axis infantry veterancy effects, Relic's potential laziness be damned.

[Virigoth]

In short it comes down to this:

Get 1st level weapon teams vet, and get all the armor vet if you can afford it. Rest of them are useless at the moment for their cost.

This is nothing new, and personaly I think the effects of the upgrades are fine (except maybe the rate of hp regen for axis infantry) but the cost is astronomical for the payoff in all cases except the two mentioned above. I mean compare the BAR upgrade's impact 200+60 fuel, to 1st level vet for axis infantry (also 200+ 60 fuel afaik).

There needs to be some tuning done to the fuel costs OR get rid of the fuel cost and convert it into munitions.