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(DC DPS) Dark Crusade - Damage per Second

  1. #51
    Jay_Davis
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    Maybe we are onto something here. The real flayer fix (and perhaps a fix to other units) is that the damage caused by these special attacks should be affected by moral.

    I think we need to add these special attacks to the DPS list (yes, I know, easier said than done).

  2. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #52
    Forum Fact Fairie Slow_Runner's Avatar
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    I have an Excel file up here. It's a bit messy but it's better than nothing I guess.

    --
    *Updated the link*
    Last edited by Slow_Runner; 31st Jul 07 at 5:16 AM.
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  3. #53
    TrueTheReaper
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    No special attack (Or AOE attack, whichever you want to call them) is affected by morale. This is the reason it didn´t matter much when MANz had weak morale

  4. #54
    Ayiana
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    First thanks for the dps chart, it's really great

    Second, I gave a look at the Tau dps from slow_runner chart and came up with some question :

    1) it doesnt seem there s the upgraded pulse rifle damage profile for the fire warrior (first one comes from path of enlightenment, second from the ethereal). Same for stealthsuit weapon.
    Actually, every weapon system is missing the bonus damage from the ethereal.

    2) Missiles damage for the crisis suit seems strange, it's a non-free update to the fusion blaster and it doesnt seem to be any better than the fusion blaster. Anyone see why ? I was thinking missiles damage are per missiles and not per weapon, but the crisis suit only launch one missile each time it fires.

    3) Shas'ui Fire Warrior use a pulse carbine, not a pulse rifle.
    Last edited by Ayiana; 1st Nov 06 at 7:52 AM.

  5. #55
    For the Tau listening posts... am I seeing this right? Does the ion cannon, the lp2 upgrade, do more DPS to all targets (except buildings) than the rail gun lp3 upgrade? That doesn't seem right.

  6. #56
    mits
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    Great job. Its strange that half races' LP3s are broken and do horrible damage.

    Btw, i ve never seen the cc dps of csm and cultists after the furious charge upgrade listed on such charts, can someone share it?

  7. #57
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    yeah that and bring on Necron warrior damage after 1 and 2 summoning core upgrades. And Tau Ethereal global damage boosts and.... Plz slow, we love you.

  8. #58
    massentropy
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    from looking at the space marine turret it looks like the missle upgrade makes it do more dmg to infantry? am i seeing this right? i always thought it did less dmg but added a knockback effect and wasn't a real upgrade except for targetting vehicles/buildings?

  9. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #59
    Forum Fact Fairie Slow_Runner's Avatar
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    /me just spent 10½ hours at the university but takes notes and will get to it eventually

  10. #60
    Njorhg
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    Why shouldn't missiles deal damage to infantry? :evil:

  11. #61
    {x}Proudfoot
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    Looking at Slow's chart what do the numbers before and after the comma mean? It can't be min dmg/max dmg, but I can't figure it out.

  12. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #62
    Forum Fact Fairie Slow_Runner's Avatar
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    The numbers on the left side of the comma are integral numbers and the ones on the right side of the comma are fractional numbers of a decimal numeral.

    The comma acts as a decimal separator.

    So for example when a Chaos Marine bolter does 9,9 dps to infantry_heavy_med, after factoring in min and max damage, armor penetration, accuracy and reload time, it does on average 9 and 9/10 points of damage each second to anything that has an armor class of infantry_heavy_med.

  13. #63
    {x}Proudfoot
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    Ok, I get it. I'm used to seeing decimals as 9.9, maybe it's a North American vs. European thing.

  14. #64
    Jay_Davis
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    Yes, a comma is a decimal point in Europe. They are a confused people.

  15. #65
    Hopkins
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    Yes, confused indeed. Plus, they also use . for thousand separaters.

    Not the brits I might add - we use . for decimal and , for thousands like the yanks. I assume this is the same for aussies and kiwis too.

    -----

    I can't post this next bit as a separate post, it appends it to this one. How annoying. Do people do silly things without this restriction in place? Anyway...

    -----

    Hello chaps, I'm working on an Access database that will allow you to answer questions like "which weapon works best against infantry of any type in general" or "which race have the most consistantly damaging anti-commander attacks". However, I'd like to be able to distinguish between the attacker's unit name, unit type, tier (per weapon) and range/melee attacks. I appreciate that the excel sheet by Slow_Runner has most of this info, but it's not in format I can use easily, and I'm afraid I cannot offer the time to sort it out. What I need is something like the original download but with another four columns "Unit", "Unit Type", "Tier" and "Melee/Ranged".

    For the record, according to my methods the answer to the two questions above are "wailing doom stronghold sp" and "Necron"... I'll explain how I've come to these and other conclusions if/when I get the extra data and complete the database! Feel free to mail it to me at spamcage@yahoo.co.uk as well as post it here in case I can't check back for a few days.

    Cheers.

  16. #66
    I'm super cerial Energizer Bunny's Avatar
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    Thanks to Corsix, Slow Runner and all the other brave souls who spend God knows how long pulling this stuff together so the rest of us can use it as ammunition in our imba whinge threads.

    Muchos gracias

  17. #67
    KneeneeDa
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    I searched for the crisis suits flamer DPS. Didn´t found it jet.

    Can someone tell me where i can find them?

  18. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #68
    Forum Fact Fairie Slow_Runner's Avatar
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    Crisis suit flamer dps is really high but I'm not sure what the reload time of 0 amounts to (it must resort to some default) so I can't give an accurate dps. Sorries.
    Last edited by Slow_Runner; 23rd Mar 07 at 2:20 PM.

  19. General Discussions Senior Member Modding Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #69
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    On the topic of armour pen (maybe this is more suited to the mod forums though): can anyone (corsix, slow runner?) tell me what the 'Armour Penetration' stat is for - I DO NOT mean the one for each armour type which is a precentage of the min/max damage (these are also called armour penetration confusingly) but there is a single stat above these called the same thing and it usually is of a value of about 10.0 or 6.0 or something similar (10,0 or 6,0 for euros!).

    What is this for?
    "Life is not full of successes, it is full of failures from which we learn" - Tony Benn
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  20. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #70
    Forum Fact Fairie Slow_Runner's Avatar
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    I believe that's the default AP.

  21. #71
    NightRapier
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    Looks like the Tau LP3 isn't worth getting for the dps. And SM Sarge still doesn't do a whole lot with his PP, but at least it's not a downgrade anymore.

  22. #72
    Nachtwolfruiner
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    For the troops with special attack procs like flayed ones on buildings, the best way to test it out would be to kill them down to 1 troop and have them attack buildings for 60 seconds or something and count how much damage they did and divide. Or have them fight one troop of that armor type so you can see the actual health number on them after so long and run the test a few times in a row and average.

    Only problem is that takes a lot of time to do.

  23. #73
    Freelance Armorer SvK's Avatar
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    Special attack damage can be factored in with more math and more data (which I like , because reading data files is cool, and it's less random then playtesting)

    There's a special_attacks extension in the entity blueprint that has the information we need:
    Code:
    GameData["special_attack_ext"]["time_between_special_attacks"] = 6.000000
    GameData["special_attack_ext"]["time_between_special_attacks_random"] = 2.000000
    This could mean that between 4 and 8 seconds pass between special attacks, (6 + or - 2) or maybe between 6 and 8 seconds. I'll have to test to find out.

    So the average time between special attacks can be determined from those variables. Each special attack has a weapon_damage section, much like a weapon:

    lengthy weapon_damage code


    With the damage and piercing values therein, average damage per attack can be determined. Most units with special attacks have more than one, further complicating things.
    Code:
    GameData["special_attack_ext"]["special_attacks"]["special_attack_01"]["chance"] = 30.000000
    Each special attack has a probability assigned to it. (Hopefully, the sum of all the probabilities is 1) But wait, there's more!
    Code:
    GameData["special_attack_ext"]["special_attacks"]["special_attack_01"]["duration"] = 1.800000
    Each special attack takes some time to complete, during which the unit is not using its regular attack.

    Combining all those factors will yield a DPS rating against a single target. I'll run the numbers for a Dreadnaught and work an example, so you see how it is done.

    Another annoying thing about special attacks (or explosive weapons) is their ability to hit multiple targets. I'm not sure how best to represent that. Perhaps:
    tp_infantry_low: 29.8 + 3.6x
    to represent 29.8DPS to one target, and an additional 3.6DPS for any other tp_infantry_low troops that happen to stand in the area of effect. I'm open to suggestions.

  24. #74
    Nachtwolfruiner
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    Well doing the math is great and all but I will use this as an example...

    In WoW for say, I could do all the math for my hunter's shot rotations and account for crit rate, talents, mulipliers, armor, etc etc down to the last detail. But thats all on paper and not usually close to what it ends up being due to other factors that can vary. I don't know if you are accounting things like the troops getting knocked around vs this type of troop or that type. I find that when you have things like grenades that knock people down, your overall dps is lower than what it might be on paper. Because they become non-targetable while they get back up and don't usually get shot at.

    I've just diving into the number crunching aspect of this game so I'm not entirely sure how the dps systems works yet.

    EDIT: The best way to truely test these things out is to experiment ingame and time things and divide the damage by the time. If you do this long enough you will get a much more accurate represention of dps. So over the next couple days I'm going to try this test out on my lan and see if my dps numbers come close to what you guys are getting.

  25. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #75
    Forum Fact Fairie Slow_Runner's Avatar
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    Nachtwolfruiner, as a friendly warning, it might take more than a few days to go over each weapon and special attack for each unit in each race enough many times to get an accurate figure.

    SvK, I wouldn't even try to factor in area of effect because it's completely random how many units you might hit making it nigh impossible to give out an accurate number. I'd just give dps for one target getting hit and leave it up to everyone to figure out the potential by themselves. If you can come up with a working formula that would be great though.

  26. #76
    Catal
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    chaos hq, eldar hq, eldar hq sp msoe05, guard hq, monolith, ork hq, space marine hq, tau hq, tau shrine of kauyon, tau shrine of montka, tau shrine of purpose,

    Shrine of purpose? do they mean the trade center with that?

  27. #77
    Freelance Armorer SvK's Avatar
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    Nachtwolfruiner: I figure if my calculations and gameplay don't match, I haven't taken every last detail into account.

    Slow_Runner: I won't give a total DPS for AOE attacks, just a DPS for the main target and a DPS for anything caught in the blast. So if 1 guy is targeted and 3 get hit with splash damage, the total DPS would be (Main DPS) + 3 * (AOE DPS).

    I finished the DPS for Flayed Ones, and people need to send them against Land Raiders!
    Normal DPS = Damage weapon would do if special attacks didn't interrupt it. It seems like this is the DPS the Flayed One should do, but it isn't.
    Total DPS = Damage of weapon and special attacks combined.
    AOE DPS = Damage that bystanders take from special attacks.
    Code:
    Armour type		Normal DPS	Total DPS	AOE DPS
    tp_infantry_low 	47		37.33		7.94
    tp_infantry_med 	47		46.19		16.8
    tp_infantry_high 	47		44.83		15.45
    tp_infantry_heavy_med	47		47.54		18.15
    tp_infantry_heavy_high	31.33		35.15		15.55
    tp_vehicle_low		23.5		21.2		6.5
    tp_vehicle_med		19.58		17.44		5.19
    tp_vehicle_high		7.83		26.71		21.82
    tp_building_low		3.92		21.92		19.47
    tp_building_med		1.57		6.65		5.67
    tp_building_high	0		7.64		7.64
    tp_monster_med		31.33		26.4		6.81
    tp_monster_high		7.83		16.01		11.12
    tp_commander		23.5		17.73		3.03
    My Calculations:
    DPS for a special attack = (avg damage / duration) * piercing
    avg damage = (min damage + max damage) / 2

    Pretty easy. But how do I combine the damage of the Flayed One's 3 special attacks with the damage from its normal weapon? The normal weapon and the special attacks don't overlap. The Flayed One stops attacking with its normal weapon while it does a special attack.
    Code:
    GameData["special_attack_ext"]["time_between_special_attacks"] = 4.000000
    GameData["special_attack_ext"]["time_between_special_attacks_random"] = 1.000000
    This means that the Flayed One uses its normal attack for 4 or 5 seconds, then does a special attack (which take 2 or 3 seconds), then normal attack for another 4 or 5 seconds, then another special attack, and so on.
    Code:
    GameData["special_attack_ext"]["special_attacks"]["special_attack_01"]["chance"] = 0.333000
    Each special attack has a certain chance of being selected when the Flayed One decides to use a special attack. Conveniently, each has a chance of 1/3.

    The average duration of a special attack is (duration(1) * chance(1) + duration(2) * chance(2) + duration(3) * chance(3)) = (3 * 0.333 + 3 * 0.333 + 2 * 0.333) = (2.666)

    The average duration of normal attacks is 4.5 seconds, so the Flayed One spends 4.5 seconds with its normal attack for every 2.666 seconds it spends with special attacks. 4.5 + 2.666 = 7.166

    Combined DPS = Sum(DPS of each weapon * time spent with each weapon) / total time
    Combined DPS = (Normal DPS * 4.5) / 7.166 + (Average Special Attack DPS * 2.666) / 7.166

    Average Special Attack DPS = Sum(Special Attack DPS * Special attack chance * Special Attack Duration)
    Last edited by SvK; 11th Nov 06 at 5:22 PM.

  28. #78
    IMB3
    Guest
    Thank you Corsix and Slow_Runner for the precious file!

    And does anybody have any idea of where to find the hit points of troops, vehicles and buildings?
    Thanks in advance!

  29. #79
    BlackenedSky
    Guest
    Just wondering if some of the people familiar with DPS calculating could give me some feedback on a DPS extracting program I've written in this thread ...

  30. #80
    smartiejl
    Guest
    Thanks so much!!! This DPS was so detailed!

  31. #81
    general_ripper
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    WRT SvK's breakdown of FO dps: can anyone confirm if this is a complete general formula for getting correct melee dps figures?

    The dps breakdowns by weapon provided by Corsix and Slow Runner have been quite informative, but since it doesn't take melee special attacks into account, those figures are off. I want to create a reference with correct figures.

  32. #82
    Freelance Armorer SvK's Avatar
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    Shoot, I think this:

    Damage per shot = "(Min damage + max damage / 2) * (AP / 100)" or "weapon minimum damage" (whichever higher)

    isn't right in certain situations, especially with wide damage ranges, low piercing values, and (relatively) high min_damage_values.

    e.g. devilfish twin-linked pulse carbines:
    max_damage 20
    min_damage 10
    min_damage_value 5
    armour_piercing 30

    Using the old formula, damage per shot is ((20 + 10) / 2) * (30 / 100) OR 5
    30/2 * 0.3 = 1.5 * 0.3 = 4.5, so I use 5 instead. I factor in accuracy and reload time and get my DPS value.

    Notice that I've decided that every shot does 5 damage. My damage per shot value is an average, but since a shot can never do less than 5 damage, no shot can do more than 5 damage to keep the average exactly 5.

    Now, I'll calculate the damage of a particular shot. My Devilfish's random number generator picks a 12 for damage. (It also hits instead of missing) 12 * 0.3 = 3.6, which is less than the min_damage_value of 5, so the target takes 5 damage.

    Next, my Devilfish rolls a 20, and makes it "to-hit" roll. 20 * 0.3 = 6, which is greater than the min_damage_value, so the target takes 6 damage.

    See the problem? The old formula says that the min_damage_value is always used, but it isn't.

  33. #83
    general_ripper
    Guest
    Crud. Not the answer I wanted to hear.

    I read you about how the damage/shot is inaccurate. min_damage_value throws the (max + min)/2 calculation of average shot damage off, because in practice any roll that's not a 19 or 20 results in a 5, rather than being a 'linear' distribution of damage:

    Roll of 10 yields damage 5
    Roll of 11 yields damage 5
    Roll of 12 yields damage 5
    Roll of 13 yields damage 5
    Roll of 14 yields damage 5
    Roll of 15 yields damage 5
    Roll of 16 yields damage 5
    Roll of 17 yields damage 5
    Roll of 18 yields damage 5
    Roll of 19 yields damage 6
    Roll of 20 yields damage 6

    ...for a real average damage per shot of 5.18, and
    dps = dam * acc / reload = 5.18 * 0.8 / 0.25 = 16.6.
    Using the old formula it's 16.0. So even in this case the inaccuracy isn't awful; I would be interested to see what the inaccuracy of a real worst case scenario would be (extremes of the factors you mentioned, plus high accuracy and very short reload time for example).

    Off to dig into the lua files...

  34. #84
    THANKS TO SLOWRUNNER FOR HIS LIFESAVING CHART. NOW I CAN FINALLY DECIDE WHEN TO PUT MARINES IN CC OR RANGED. THANKS!

    still somethings aren't right
    1)eldar units damage to respective units is weak. Ie reapers are unusually weak against heavy type infantry and fire dragon are unusually weak against vehicles...
    2)your flashgitz values are a little off

    However your values for the tau were spot on.
    Do you think you can include HP values as well? I'd like to know the individual hp values of a unit. Simply doing a little more damage may not be enough to offset HP differences in terms of squad values.
    Last edited by SubakuGaara; 9th Dec 06 at 2:35 PM.

  35. #85
    Member Turbo164's Avatar
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    Hmm, I can't tell some of the Klaw values apart...

    Specifically I'm wondering about the Warboss Campaign values. The Horns and Gob upgrades add 130 melee damage each (and 600 hp), while the actual Klaw upgrades add like 100 and 70, according to the ingame values. The description says something about fire runnin' through the klaw, so I assume it has better armor penetration or something?...

    Would make Hard campaign go a bit quicker if I knew which wargear to get first.

  36. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #86
    Forum Fact Fairie Slow_Runner's Avatar
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    SubakuGaara: Could you explain why/how you think Eldar values and Flash Git values are a little off? Do you mean that I have incorrect values or that they do too little damage or...?

    Turbo164: There aren't any campaign values in my stats. I can tell you to never get the first ranged upgrade because it is way worse than the Warboss' original kustom shoota, but I haven't looked into the CC wargear at all.

  37. #87
    BlackenedSky
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow_Runner
    SubakuGaara: Could you explain why/how you think Eldar values and Flash Git values are a little off? Do you mean that I have incorrect values or that they do too little damage or...?
    The DPS values I get using my own DPS prog agree with your numbers Slow, so I don't think you're wrong. I think he's more complaining about the actual damage is too low.

  38. #88
    I felt the flash gitz values weren't repersentative of in game DPS for the flash gitz. If you average all the DPS you listed for all the infantry types average is about 40. If you average the DPS for the eldar listening post on infanty types, you get roughly the same DPS. A flashgitz unit I found do a little more than that but it could be a false perception. They rarely miss while turrets miss frequently. But it could be false perception. Nonetheless thanks for the chart. The same for the eldar firedragon and their damage to vehicles. It was on par with something it shouldn't have been on part with, but I can't find it right now. I'm really tired. Thanks for the chart. I study it every day at work in the hopes of being a better player. I will give better feedback when I get home later.

  39. #89
    Quick question:
    Does damage per second acount for weapon accuracy?

    i.e. Does DPS represent a calculation of damage dealt multiplyed by the probability of hitting? (so a weapon with 50% accuracy will give half the DPS that the same weapons would have were it 100% accurate)

    Or does DPS represent damage dealt assuming that every shot hits...

  40. #90
    BlackenedSky
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    The formula used incorporates accuracy. The formula also assumes that each weapon does the average damage per hit (max damage + min damage /2).

  41. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #91
    Forum Fact Fairie Slow_Runner's Avatar
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    ((max damage + min damage) / 2) to be exact.

    SubakuGaara: These are all averages so there is a fair bit of variance with them, both in terms of accuracy and min and max damage so things can happen a little differently in-game.

  42. #92
    XCricket
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    Formatted Excel Spreadsheet

    My eyes couldn't take it anymore!

    I formatted Slow_Runner's text file into an easy-to-read MS Excel (2003) file. There's a worksheet for each individual race (just click on the tabs at the bottom) to reduce Ctrl+F and scrolling. A frozen header bar keeps the column headings intact when you do scroll though.

    If you guys calculate the numbers to accomodate special attacks, I'll gladly change/add those in with identical formatting in the future.

    I figured I'd share this in case anyone is interested. Here's the download link (new link has updated file with easier-to-read formatting):

    http://www.mytempdir.com/1148163

    (Thanks for the explanation about first-post restriction!)
    Last edited by XCricket; 3rd Jan 07 at 10:00 PM. Reason: updated link with easier-to-read file

  43. #93
    Senior Member TheLoneKnight's Avatar
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    You aren't allowed to post a URL because you've just signed up to the forum and that was your first post. You should be able to edit your post with the URL now, or after you've made a second post.

    I'm a Deviant?

  44. Dawn of War Senior Member  #94
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
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    Has anyone got a armor type/health list for the units yet?

    I am prepping another balance suggestion and dont want any more suprises
    Ra Owa : AAHHHH!!!! ITS A ROCK!
    Troubleshooter : Wha... oh... Pfffttt... Prove it. :}
    Ra Owa : ... [sputtering] ... o.O ... Its SCIENCE!

  45. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #95
    Forum Fact Fairie Slow_Runner's Avatar
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    Something I've been putting together is here. It's very much WIP still so don't expect anything special but it has hp of a fair few of the new units by now. Anything marked with a XXX means that I've checked it for changes in DC.

  46. Dawn of War Senior Member  #96
    As imagined by Octopus Rex... Troubleshooter's Avatar
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    Thanx, that will help with my analysis alot.

  47. #97
    kill4bite
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    awesome! two thumbs up!

  48. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #98
    Forum Fact Fairie Slow_Runner's Avatar
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    I've had to move my things to a new location, DPS can now be found in the following address: http://koti.mbnet.fi/juhama84/DCdps.txt.

  49. #99
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    Umm, whats the formula for calculating morale dps of weapons?

    I'm asking this here because it seems almost nobody noticed my thread about it.
    http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=131015

  50. Dawn of War II Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #100
    Forum Fact Fairie Slow_Runner's Avatar
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    It's pretty much the same as for normal dps, except that you have to take into account slightly different things.

    Morale DPS = "(Morale Damage * Accuracy) / Reload * Morale Armor"

    Morale armor is 0.5 for most units, but it varies a bit on some units.

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