(DC DPS) Dark Crusade - Damage per Second

[Azmodael]

Great work XCricket, I really adore your work. Some thoughts on imoroving it tho:

Reduce each column a little so last collumn can be seen without scrolling.

Colour each column to make it even easier to follow. LInfantry yellow for example and the lightest infantry the lighters yellow to Inf_high closing almost to orange etc.

[Kalevispetke]

Big thanks! Okay that Morale Armor thing messes it up a bit. Can't make a good morale dps for each weapon.

[XCricket]

Thanks Azmodael for the suggestions. I updated the spreadsheet with column colors for easier reading. In the process, I rearranged the columns into a more intuitive order.

I still haven't fixed any typos, but it's more than understandable as is. If I get the values that incorporate special attacks into DPS, I'll definitely add those, but I probably won't have the motivation to make any more changes until then.

Here's the link for the file (.xls). I don't have any permanent hosting capabilities, but if anyone else wants to host it, feel free!

http://www.mytempdir.com/1148163

[Slow_Runner]

Attached a DC 1.2 DPS file, all thanks to Corsix' most awesome tools.

[JgPz.Hetzer]

Many thanks Slowrunner, that was really fast.

[SubakuGaara]

Thanks for the chart. Bit confusing though. I've been trying to figure out when Ishould upgrade the new chaos preds and its super confusing your chart is. Can you help?

[Dark Lord]

looking over the list, im kind of confused. whats the listing for Necron Warriors?
only thing i can find is
necron_warrior_gauss_flayer_melee.rgd
necron_warrior_gauss_flayer_ranged.rgd
necron_warrior_gauss_flayer_turret.rgd
necron_warrior_gauss_flayer_turret_2.rgd

but the stats that go with those dont seem to fit the warriors.

[Energizer Bunny]

Thanks to Slow for the fast figures. A shiny british pound (that's two bucks to our transatlantic cousins) for the first man to get this into a nice unit by unit format

EDIT: Sweeet Moses! What is an accursed crozius? Is that the Chaos lollypop thing? Check out the DPS in that sucker.

IHH: 330
IHM: 380
IH: 331
IM: 360
IL: 170

Best weapon in the game accross pretty much every armour class

[Sabin76]

These stats take all of the weapons from the .luas and give thier damage values. To know which units use which weapons, you have to look at the EBPs in the .luas.

Nec warriors use the "necron_warrior_gauss_flayer_ranged" weapon.

If these charts are accurate (and I have no reason to believe they aren't) then the wiki people (myself included) will have all of this recorded in the wiki soon enough. Buggo posted the new LUAs in the mod section if you can't wait to see though.

[Slow_Runner]

I'll have a unit by unit sorted list out in a day or two.

[Energizer Bunny]

Thanks Slow. That will be much appreciated

[Garumsh-Zott]

EDIT: Sweeet Moses! What is an accursed crozius?

Could be the single player weapon upgrade for Eliphas....

[Slow_Runner]

Updated 1.2 DPS: http://koti.mbnet.fi/juhama84/DCdps.txt

If you spot any mistakes or have something to add, drop me a PM.

[Energizer Bunny]

Excellent. Thank you Slow

[SubakuGaara]

Thanks a lot slow. Seems the two versions of the chaos pred are widely dissimilar.

Think its possible to transfer all that info into a nice and clean excel file. Meanwhile, I'll see if I can get some of it up on the wiki maybe.

[nse70]

I just finished the Excel version... how do I upload it...

[Slow_Runner]

Like this. (that attachment is also the dps in .xls btw)

nse70, drop me a PM and I'll help you get your stuff uploaded.

[sgb]

Awesome work!

Nice to see the SM commanders weapon damage now make sense. Even with the buff, Tau LP3 is still pretty questionable.

Looks like the Eldar LP3 and Mega Blasta are still junk.

[weirwood]

Well, mega blasta deals AoE damage, IIRC.

[anilkocman]

can you also include furious charge chaos armory research.
i really wonder how much it improves cultist and csm melee?
also with angry and chaos lord bonus of course. thanks in advance.

[Slow_Runner]

Cultist and CSM melee values with bonuses added.

[Sabin76]

I see you've added the exarch bonus to the DR and FD Exarchs, but haven't done it for the other aspects. Honestly, I don't think you even need the base values, because if there is an Exarch, the bonus is there, and if there is no Exarch, that weapon's damage is meaningless . If you have time, could you also add the FS DPS with her upgrades?

P.S. Do you think it would be feasible to make a chart with REAL DPS... I mean one that incorporates special attacks and the like? I know it would be hard, but would it be so hard that no one would bother doing it?

[SubakuGaara]

Can you explain the values for the chaos lord? Does the aura self affect him? and What is furious? and are you sure they all stack? and in what order is the stack as it affects the final numbers.

[Slow_Runner]

Sabin75, I'll add the exarch bonuses when I get to it. There's discussion on "real" dps earlier in this thread and while I think it's probably somehow possible, it ends up being a hell of a lot of work and I at least can't script it into existence.

Chaos Lord's aura does affect him AFAIK, Furious refers to Berserker Fury (I think that's the ingame name) ability of Aspiring Champions that temporarily adds 40% to damage. To my knowledge they do indeed stack. As they are all multiplications, the order does not matter (1.1*1.4*1.15 is the same as 1.4*1.15*1.1).

[SubakuGaara]

Right again. Order doesn't matter.

Don't bother with the special attacks. It'll take an eternity.

[Sabin76]

Yeah, I remember reading about that and I thought someone may have still been working on it in the background. No worries.

[SubakuGaara]

Actually slow, I wonder about that chaos lord aura. Here's what the problem is. Its a stacking issue. Are you sure they stack the way you say they do? Let me draw the situation thats bugging me.

In this game, the chaplains spell reduces speed by 90 percent. In this game, fleet of foot increases speed by 50 percent. However, do they both apply to current speed (how fast the unit is moving at that very time. In example, the current speed of a guardian with fleet of foot on is much faster than his current speed when it is off) or base speed (default speed with no spells etc)? It makes a big difference.

Lets draw an example assuming both spells apply to base speed. We will say that guardians move at 100 base speed. Assuming both spells use base speed values this is the result:

Shout followed by FOF> 90 percent reduction of base speed followed by 50 percent increase of base speed> 100 [base speed]+(-90)[shout reduction]+50 (increase from FOF)

The end result is the unit will be moving at 60 speed.

FOF followed by shout> 100 [base speed]+ 50(increase from FOF)+ (-90)[shout reduction]

End result either way is the guardians will be moving at 60 speed.

If both apply to current speed, then its drastically different. We will say that guardians still move at 100 base speed. Assuming both spells affect current speed values this is the result:
Shout followed by FOF> 100 speed+ (-90)= 10 (new current speed)

because they apply to current speed FOF boosts current speed by 50 percent

10+ 5 (FOF boost)= 15 end result speed

(it is the same if FOF is on first and then shout hits)

This is actually what you see in game. i can't verify it for myself, but someone who plays eldar told me that even with FOF, the guards take a massive drop, indicating the two spells stack by affecting current values and not base values.

So you can see why I question if the chaos lords stacking auras are correct as they could stack in two ways, either stacking by altering the base damage value or by stacking by using the altered/elevated/current values. So which is it?

[Sabin76]

Ok here's the breakdown. (if you want more information check the "Eldar Accuracies" thread in the Tactica Imperialis forum)
Basically there are 2 type of modifiers we are concerned about, multiplicitive and additive. Additive bonuses get applied after multiplicitive, but that's acutually niether here nor there because both of your bonuses are multiplicitive.

Demoralizing shout reduces the targets speed by 80%... but in game terms, what it really does is multiply your speed by 0.2. FoF increases the targets speed by 50%... but again, in game terms it multiplies the speed by 1.5.

So FoF ---> Shout = 100 x 1.5 x 0.2 = 30
and Shout ----> FoF = 100 x 0.2 x 1.5 = 30

As you probably know from algebra, when multiplying, the order does not matter.
The confusion comes about because we choose to say "decreases by 80%" instead of "multiplies by 0.2" (and it's arguably easier to understand when dealing with only one power).

Now, if one of the Lords abilites provides an ADDITIVE bonus, then you have to be careful, but I think they are all multiplicitive like Slow said.

[SubakuGaara]

Right. I was just checking that if its additive (affects current value) or just multiplicative of base value. SO which is it?

[Sabin76]

Be careful... additive doesn't strictly "affect the current value" either.

I'll take Guide and FoF now with accuracy on GUs for example.
Guide is additive, FoF is multi.
First FoF, then guide and we get 0.7 x 0.5 + 0.3 = 0.65
Guide first, then FoF yields 0.7 + 0.3 x 0.5 = 0.65 (again because of how algebra works... multi first, then add)

So, even though a GU with guide has 100% accuracy with no FoF (or 1.0), turning FoF on does NOT reduce it to 50% (or 0.5), but to 65% (0.65).

So, even with multi and additive bonuses... the order the buffs/nerfs were applied shouldn't matter. I'm am assuming that every time a modifier is applied, whatever stat that is changing is totally recalculated. At this point though, I'm just talking about what I see happening in game and how I know the code works.

to answer this question, however:

SO which is it?

I quote these:

To my knowledge they do indeed stack. As they are all multiplications...

but I think they are all multiplicitive like Slow said.

[Corsix]

Guide first, then FoF yields 0.7 + 0.3 x 0.5 = 0.65 (again because of how algebra works... multi first, then add)

Except DoW coding =/= algebra.
(0.7 + 0.3) * 0.5 = 0.5

[SubakuGaara]

Guide first, then FoF yields 0.7 + 0.3 x 0.5 = 0.65

Sabin recheck the math on this one...

And just to be sure we are on the same page, when talking about the Chaos lord, I'm asking if the two boosts stack on top of each other or simply add to each other using the base value. By stack on top of each other I'm saying if daemon strength is used after berzerk fury, the elevated damage value during berzerk fury BECOMES the value that daemon strength affects. Like this

daemon strength boost (berzerk fury boost (base damage value))= final value

Is this true? Because if it is then the order makes a big difference as the percentage boost differs.

Or is it simply that daemon prince uses the standard value, berzerk fury uses the standard value, and the end result is the sum of the two? Like this

daemon prince boost (standard value)+ berzerk fury boost (standard value)= final result

I hope I'm getting clearer...

[Slow_Runner]

Well if you take Nobs or any other multiplicative hp bonus for example, you see that it's base*bonus1*bonus2. I can't see a reason for it to be different when it comes to damage modifiers.

[SubakuGaara]

So when WS get their first HP buff, it uses the standard base value? And then when they get their second HP buff it still uses the standard base value?

[Sabin76]

That's a very good point, but think of it this way... research can be thought of as an ability that never goes away. So if WS have health of 615 and get the first health upgrade, that's 615 * 1.15 = 707. With the second upgrade it "adds" 25% (again, this is where the confusion sets in), which is 615 * 1.15 * 1.25 = 884. Notice that there is no addition in the actual calculation behind the scenes, we just say "adds 25%" to make it sound easier to understand.

It should be exactly the same for the CL and his abilities.

Now, I seem to have been proven wrong in the addition/multiplication application types (I only tested it once using very rough methods and didn't see a difference between FoF + Guide, and Guide + FoF... but that's probably due to the fact that 0.5 accuracy and 0.65 accuracy with pea shooters doesn't differ in damage output that much ), but again, the CL abilities are all multiplicitive bonuses.

[Malal[chaos]]

I'm curious about this as well, and I think that bonuses multiply off eachother, for example the SM Force Commander with Inspiring Aura uses Battlecry, I think it includes the aura in the calculations for bonuses. Hence the Force Commander does...No idea how much actually, but I believe it to be extremely high. I've had one take out a Wraithlord by itself, when the wraith had Brightlance and started with approx 1/3 health.

[Aquaz]

How confortable is the read of dps now! thanks to you! this file is just essential to understand this game!

Thanks a lot

[Atmaweapon]

I see under the tau DPS section that the Krootox melee attack is listed, but not its ranged attack. Further, I see 2 attacks listed for the Greater Knarloc, one is Melee, and the other listed as Claw. Is this a typo, or is the Krootox's ranged weapon not listed?

[Slow_Runner]

KROOTOX:														
kroot_rifle_krootox 		3,5	63,0	31,5	47,3	94,5	126,0	157,5	94,5	189,0	31,5	94,5	3,5	63,0	31,5
krootox_melee 			97,5	195,0	146,3	65,0	97,5	130,0	162,5	97,5	195,0	97,5	130,0	97,5	195,0	146,3

Rifle is the ranged weapon for the Krootox.

Greater Knarloc only has a melee attack, the claw.

[Just8KB8]

Hey peoples! Does anyone know if there is a SS dps-list out already? I wanna compare various units their dps but using the Wiki is not that handy (and its blocked at my work since yesterday... someone is on to me in my last 2 weeks of working here, damn!!)

[White_Pointer]

Yeah it'll be good to get a SS DPS list pretty please

White_Pointer

[BlackenedSky]

Soulstorm DPS:

It's not particularly pretty or organised ...

... But it's a start.

(Generated courtesy of Corsix's Mod Studio)

[runab0ut]

Formatted BlackenedSky's SS DPS html file:

http://drop.io/SoulStormDPS

[Mosh4Life]

Ty Corsix
Tis rather useful for when I go on more stable DC =]

I forward the motion of SS version
Pretty please =D

Mosh4Life =]

[omgitsduane]

DPS = accuracy x reload? do units actually have reload or does this simply mean the cooldown between physical shots and "pretend" ones?

[Maktaka]

There's a lot more to it than that. Check out the article on DPS in the DoW Player's Guide.

[2_X_S]

I have one question regarding the DPS calculation.

I do understand the way its calculated but looking into the Weapon.rgd file brought up one question.

Within the part of the file where the piercing values are listed for each Armor type. There is, what seems to be a global armor piercing modifier. Usualy the value is 0 but some weapons, like all Plasma pistols or Power Fists for SM Leaders have this value set different (10 in these examples).

Does anyone know how this is calculated in?
Could it be, as an example vs vehicle_low.

Armor piercing = AP + AP_vehicle_low

2x

[Maktaka]

The global is used instead if the piercing for a specific armor type is missing. Weaponry is all filled in, but many abilities rely on this value to calculate their damage.

[2_X_S]

Thanks, that explains it

2x