Kroot Carni. morale damage and regen. too high?

[MrBims]

I just played a 1v1 on Fear (terrible map, needs to go) as Space Marines versus Tau. My opponent opened the game up by trying to Vespid rush me, which failed as I had built a turret after my Chapel Barracks. Having two SM tac squads, I tried to take advantage of the failed rush by going to his base immediately while a scout squad capped points. When my two squads got there, they were almost fully reinforced, and encountered a single kroot squad of 6. One tac squad assaulted while the other shot from closeby. I noticed that my tac squad in combat was taking far more morale damage than the Kroot squad, going to 150 morale from 300 in only a few seconds of combat despite having double the troop strength of the Kroot. The Kroot retreated outside the base, allowing me to assault the Kroot Barracks.

Very soon after, two Kroot squads came back at nearly full strength and attacked my two full tac squads. This time, the Kroot were almost immune to morale damage, not moving from their max of 300, while one of my tac squads broke in ~10 seconds and another one was down to 50 morale. I was forced to dance the two squads around the Kroot, until a third fully reinforced tac squad came. One of the two Kroot squads never moved from 300 for a second, and the other was losing morale far slower than my fresh tac squad which was promptly broken from fighting an inferior force. A third Kroot squad came out of the Barracks. With so many casualties from not being able to damage his initially smaller Kroot force faster than he could reinforce it, I had to retreat, losing two whole squads in the process.

I built a second tac squad, and got two flamethrowers for each of them to try to break the Kroots' morale before they could break mine. However, he had researched Feral Leap which completely circumvented the flamethrower's range and therefore the morale damage. At this point, I had used up so much requisition on filling expensive Tactical forces to fight Kroot Carnivores that I had lost both the rush to tier 2 and map control. The game was pretty much lost. I tried to build a Machine Cult to quickly get out Landspeeders and Dreadnaughts, but they were just torn apart by invisible stealth team spam.

Something is very wrong when a relatively cheap unit intended to be an auxillary for tying up enemies so that Firewarriors may kill them from afar, is able to stand toe-to-toe with a more expensive and more plentiful melee-oriented core army unit and win. This is not just true of Space Marine tac squads, but also of Chaos tac squads, Ork Slugga Boyz, and Eldar Banshees

I don't know if Kroot damage is too much or not, but the morale damage really needs to be dropped.

[Stormbringer]

Having two SM tac squads, I tried to take advantage ... and attacked my two full tac squads ... I built a second tac squad, and got two flamethrowers for each of them ... had used up so much requisition on filling expensive Tactical forces to fight Kroot Carnivores that ... Something is very wrong when a relatively cheap unit intended to be an auxillary for tying up enemies so that Firewarriors may kill them from afar, is able to stand toe-to-toe with a more expensive and more plentiful melee-oriented core army unit and win.

What exactly were you using to fight against the Tau's melee specialist unit?

Tactical Space Marine squads (ranged) or Assault Space Marine squads (melee/maneuverability)?

It sounds to me as though you didn't use ASM's, didn't tie the Kroot up in close-combat, and they walked (or leaped) all over you. Feral Leaping is T2, and so are ASM's, I believe. Tac squads, while good, die to most melee specialist units, even Kroot, which are classified as infantry, but have superior speed and feral leaping.

[McGilles]

What is your complaint really?

You were trying to use ranged units against CC units and you lost, as you're supposed to be doing!

Maybe play smarter next time or do some research on units. Sorry, but this just wasnt smart to do!

[Carl]

I think his issue is that 2 Tac squads couldn't even hurt 2 Kroot squads.

The first thing he needs to remeber is that dancing is gone, if your going to face melee units, you need at least one of your own so that you can tie the enemy up whilst your ranged units pumel him. Your third squad should have been ASM, not Tacs, and Flamers are no good against T2 so it was a dumb idea to get the TBH.

[McGilles]

What i normally do and what works great is just get plasma asap and use your scouts wisely!

2 squads of scouts (which you built at start) and 2 SM squads with some plasma works wonders! You can easily dance then and atleast 2 squads we are doing constant damage then!

Scouts just plain own

[Weavern]

This isnt a balance issue, this is someone is having trouble with X. Being bumped down to strategy. For future reference read the big fancy 'read before posting' threads in both forums before making threads. Next time it will be locked.

[MrBims]

What is your complaint really?

You were trying to use ranged units against CC units and you lost, as you're supposed to be doing!

Maybe play smarter next time or do some research on units. Sorry, but this just wasnt smart to do!

Tactical squads do as much damage in melee as ranged before upgrades, and ASMs require the Armory.

Maybe you should do some research on units.


You're all missing the point. I never said that Kroot did too much damage, I said they did too much morale damage! A single Kroot squad at half strength was able to take on two bigger Tac squads by breaking their morale, effectively making them useless. ASM's would have done no better, even with their superior damage, because they would have taken the same amount of time to break. That's the entire point of this thread, that Kroot Carnivores do too much damage to morale and, because of their regeneration, rarely break except against flamethrowers and special abilities.

I think his issue is that 2 Tac squads couldn't even hurt 2 Kroot squads.

My issue is that 200 requisition worth of Kroot can kill more than 400 requisition of Tacs because of their morale damage. Kroot are extremely cost-effective against SM at melee when the Tac morale breaks.

This isnt a balance issue, this is someone is having trouble with X. Being bumped down to strategy. For future reference read the big fancy 'read before posting' threads in both forums before making threads. Next time it will be locked.

I don't think that's a very fair observation. I'm making a claim that Kroot Carnivores can offer too great of a return for too small of an effort and cost, and are therefore out of line with the current balance.

[GRIM Ripper]

however i think they DO do too much melee damage. 13-14dps for a cheap melee unit is ridiculous... sluggas for example do 5-7dps. in my opinion kroot carnivores should only take out marines in melee for ex when they outnumber them.

in my opinion they went overboard for almost ALL melee for both new races... kroot hounds are doing 65-100dps vs infantry, necron wraiths do like over 100dps to infantry... this is unprecedented in ANY of the other races. even advanced cc units like powerklawed nobz, ATs and ogryn dont do that kind of damage.

[ir0nside]

Something is very wrong when a relatively cheap unit intended to be an auxillary for tying up enemies so that Firewarriors may kill them from afar, is able to stand toe-to-toe with a more expensive and more plentiful melee-oriented core army unit and win.

There is your first misconception. Tau do not get both in Tier 1 - if they had "crappy arse melee units for distraction and tie-up purposes only", Tau would not be able to go Kroot first and ever win. Tau have the option to go either melee, or ranged - not both. Some of your claims sound rather exaggerated to anyone who has used Kroot extensively. I've had Kroot break quite a bit, but they do tend to have high morale and morale regeneration. However, you can't just play a game with them, and start calling for nerfing after one instance of things not going your way.

Going Kroot first has many weaknesses, and is beaten just as much as any other build.

A single Kroot squad at half strength was able to take on two bigger Tac squads by breaking their morale, effectively making them useless.

Umm, what? So you let a single squad attack one, break it, and then attack another, and break it? Next time, DANCE one away while the other fires on the Kroot. In a situation where you have 2 to 1 squad odds against a melee unit (save for PSMs and FOs) you should never have both your squads break.

Silly.

[Darzok]

There moral damage is a tad high i mean they seem to have flamethrower moral damage.


I find it funny how they do better melee damage than an Ork who is like the size of 3 kroot.

[MrBims]

There is your first misconception. Tau do not get both in Tier 1 - if they had "crappy arse melee units for distraction and tie-up purposes only", Tau would not be able to go Kroot first and ever win. Tau have the option to go either melee, or ranged - not both. Some of your claims sound rather exaggerated to anyone who has used Kroot extensively. I've had Kroot break quite a bit, but they do tend to have high morale and morale regeneration. However, you can't just play a game with them, and start calling for nerfing after one instance of things not going your way.

Going Kroot first has many weaknesses, and is beaten just as much as any other build.

To get both Kroot and Tau buildings, a Tau player only needs to pay 285 requisition, 150 for the Tau building and 135 for the Kroot building. Compare that to the Space Marine's Chapel Barracks, which is 250 requisition. A Tau player need only pay 35 more requisition than a SM player to be good at both melee and ranged.

This isn't the first time I've had problems with Kroot morale damage. I've had problems using Raptors against them, and Banshees.

Umm, what? So you let a single squad attack one, break it, and then attack another, and break it? Next time, DANCE one away while the other fires on the Kroot. In a situation where you have 2 to 1 squad odds against a melee unit (save for PSMs and FOs) you should never have both your squads break.

Silly.

I did dance a little bit when he had only one squad, which prevented both from being broken, but he didn't have one for very long.

[Thelron]

Umm, what? So you let a single squad attack one, break it, and then attack another, and break it? Next time, DANCE one away while the other fires on the Kroot. In a situation where you have 2 to 1 squad odds against a melee unit (save for PSMs and FOs) you should never have both your squads break.

If you read his post, he had a tac squad attack the kroot, not the other way around, and did have the other squad firing rather than sitting around or getting melee'd at the same time.

Tau have the option to go either melee, or ranged - not both.

Which is, of course, why Tau have to choose between two different paths to get their best melee units or all the range upgrades for their ranged units.

Oh, wait. Yes, the Tau player has to build two buildings to get both melee and ranged units out in the first place, but the buildings are cheaper than, say, a tac squad, and when you only have to build one unit to offset two of the other guy's, that extra building can get plonked down pretty easily.

Also, tac squads are far from weak melee units and should be far from easy to break, especially compared to skirmish units. Sure, assault marines will take down tacs in CC, but even they don't dish out nearly as much damage as it would take to cause as big a morale difference as this.

It makes me wonder why the tac squad that was able to shoot didn't shred the carnivores within a few moments of opening fire, but even so they shouldn't be easily breaking marines while taking almost no morale hit themselves, especially outnumbered that badly.

[ir0nside]

If you read his post, he had a tac squad attack the kroot, not the other way around, and did have the other squad firing rather than sitting around or getting melee'd at the same time.

Yes, but meleeing the Kroot isn't dancing. If he had danced the unit around, it'd have never been broken. There is no excuse for having two broken squads against one CC squad - it's simply ridiculous.

Oh, wait. Yes, the Tau player has to build two buildings to get both melee and ranged units out in the first place, but the buildings are cheaper than, say, a tac squad, and when you only have to build one unit to offset two of the other guy's, that extra building can get plonked down pretty easily.

Theorycraft for the win. You show me some replays of a dual-rax Tau build that wins, and I'll take everything I've said back. Firewarriors cost 210 req per squad. It's easy to say "but teh barrakz r teh cheap1", but when you have both Barracks and can barely produce a unit from each, it's a different story.

[MrBims]

Yes, but meleeing the Kroot isn't dancing. If he had danced the unit around, it'd have never been broken. There is no excuse for having two broken squads against one CC squad - it's simply ridiculous.

It was 2 Tacs per 1 Kroot, I had no reason not to expect easily destroying the Kroot, and needed to quickly take advantage of his failed Vespid rush before he could get more units out. And it was not 2 broken Tac squds until a second kroot squad that was capping came back, I've already said that.

Theorycraft for the win. You show me some replays of a dual-rax Tau build that wins, and I'll take everything I've said back. Firewarriors cost 210 req per squad. It's easy to say "but teh barrakz r teh cheap1", but when you have both Barracks and can barely produce a unit from each, it's a different story.

Guess what? Space Marine tac squads cost 190 requisition. And you never build just one, you build two squads or one and a Force Commander. Add up the total costs for one Firewarrior squad and 1 Carni. squad and it's almost equal to 2 Tac squads.

Kroot Barracks: 135
Tau Barracks: 150
1 Firewarrior squad: 210
1 Kroot squad: 160
Total: 655

Chapel Barracks: 250
2 Space Marine squads: 190 x 2 = 380
Total: 630

[McGilles]

If you know kroot does brake your morale, why go CC with em?

I still dont get it! You say tacs do as much damage CC as ranged (when not upgraded)

Kroot does crap damage ranged and good damage and morale damage CC.

So why go CC with em. I guess you didnt do enough micro management to force a win!

[MrBims]

If you know kroot does brake your morale, why go CC with em?

I still dont get it! You say tacs do as much damage CC as ranged (when not upgraded)

Kroot does crap damage ranged and good damage and morale damage CC.

So why go CC with em. I guess you didnt do enough micro management to force a win!

Maybe because I have no other choice? Because it's either that or I simply run away, which isn't a viable option.

You really can't dance two kroot squads with two tac squads. One Kroot targets one Tac, the other Kroot targets the other Tac, and because the Kroot are faster and do much more morale damage, both Tac squads die. Simple as that. No "just dance them lolololol". It doesn't happen.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

understand that when units move, they won't lock into cc
and when kroot are moving, they have 10% accuarcy

but if they have feral leap, it makes a hell of alot of difference
because running won't help
that's why SM have frags and rally
to help in times like these
they buy sometime and let you try to get some ASM in ASAP

[DrDread]

Kroot are some of the best CCers in the game considering their cost. THey also have crap for ranged compared to even other CC squads. Tau are specialists on both side, there melee is good and there ranged is good. The kroot are not some low level unit made to tie squads, those are called cultists. Kroot can beat Ork toe to toe in melee

[Iajaru]

-each tac marines knife does 9.1 dmg per second.
-each tac marines bolter does 9.7 dmg per second
-each kroot carnivore does 13.9 dmg per second
-each assault marine chainsword does 18.9 dmg per second(and melta<<those are fun XD)

kroot carnivore = infantry high
tac marine = infantry heavy med
assault marine = infantry heavy med

morale isnt gonna break if you arent killing them..cry imba all you want but once tac squads reach t2 they get....

heavy bolters = 40 dmg per second(per bolter)
plasma = 20-30 dmg per second
rockets = 16-20 dmg on infantry 20-60 dmg on buildings

happy hunting

[PlagueDog]

No one brought it up but did the Tau player still have his Vespids while you were fighting the carnivores also?

When used at range stance, the stingwings are morale killers.

Bims: You also said he used vespids, so tell me with your calculations plus the extra THREEHUNDRED req for the stingwings why you wouldn't have more units??????

Also in this version of DoW more of the T1 units scale as the game goes on. Carnivores aren't just cannon fodder like you seem to think.

It's getting old people screaming imbalance when the game has only been out a few weeks.

All these complaints are WAY to damn premature.

[DrDread]

Someone brought up a good point, Space Mrines can get Plasma Missile and Upgrades. Kroot cant get anything but a kroot commander. Marines are versatile, they cant be the best CCers also

[dreddnott]

Do Assault Space Marines beat Kroot for cost, though? Do they also take too much morale damage?

It would be a crime if the Tau Empire's Tier 1 melee specialist easily beat the Space Marines' Tier 1.5 melee specialist...

[Kronickle]

The main point is your using a balanced melee/ranged unit go into CC with a melee specialist. Just retreat and re-strategize.

This is what you should've done:

Use 1 Scout squad to assist in your strategy. Tau can't fight with their cappers and since he got Vespids and failed then you were definately at an early advantage. Here you are talking about imba Ranged and Melee specialist and he couldn't even make FW's because of the Vespids.

Tau can't have all 3 --> Vespids + Tau barracks + Kroot barracks; so don't worry and use something besides Vanilla Tacs next time.

[nemesis09]

How much life does a kroot have ( before any upgrades or attachment? ) I'm beginning to have the sinking feeling that they are seroiusly overpowered.

you know kroot does brake your morale, why go CC with em?

I still dont get it! You say tacs do as much damage CC as ranged (when not upgraded)

Kroot does crap damage ranged and good damage and morale damage CC.

So why go CC with em. I guess you didnt do enough micro management to force a win!

Tsk...dancing is ineffective in DC. And kroot ain't that slow in the first place. If either he runs all the way back to base ( and risks getting raped by leap if it comes out in time ) or he stands and fight ( which involve meleeing )

[Iajaru]

same goes for chaos/eldar/orkz. what would you do if 1 raptor squad and 1 cultists came up while you were in t1?

simple,run back to a upgraded listening post or turret and watch them drop. theres nothing wrong with retreating instead of losing all your troops. tac squads are virtually useless until t1.5(which doesnt exist anymore) considering all you need to reach t2 is chapel barracks then upgrade hq

1 tac squad = 190 req so 2x190 = 380 req lost
run for backup while your scouts cap/decap points letting you tech fast then get armory out and upgrade to heavy bolters, also a few land speeders will make quick work of any infantry easily. t2 is when space marines shine /w 3 heavy bolter squads,2 rocket squads,land speeders, asm :sniper:

edit: a force commander would also be good

[Mad Mac]

Just FYI, Kroot have 310 HPs/Infantry High out the gate. They can get up to +300 (suprisingly hard to do) with cannabilize, and the Shaper boosts squad HP's by 25% as well as speed and health regen.

Early game though, just 310.

[bobrossw]

In TT, kroot have pretty mediocre morale, and don't even get the bonus from the ethereal, making them easier to break than guardsmen....meanwhile all marines have the same high morale, and a rule that makes them unbreak very quickly. I understand that the computer game doesn't have to be all the exact same thing, but considering what marines are (good and tough -but expensive generalist units), I think that most T1 units, if outnumbered by marines and being both assaulted and shot at by them, should not stand a chance - unless played by a very skilled player. I do see this as a balance issue, rather than a strategy issue...especially in this case where the player was able to defeat a rush, but not able to effectively counterattack because of one cheap unit.

I also think that making this closer to the table top rules would do well to balance the kroot nicely. If they broke morale easily, they'd still be useful as fodder, and an initial assault, but would not be able to stick it out by themselves in melee for very long, thus keeping them in a support role.

Having them cause morale damage is fine, but maybe that should come with the feral leap upgrade, so they won't be quite so good in T1, where many people don't have specialist melee to counter them.

[Edit] One other thing that bugs me - knockback is used effectively against many units but seems to actually help kroot, as it gives them a chance to leap again...does anyone else think that maybe after being knocked 100 ft back to the ground, they shouldn't be able to get up and jump back the 100ft and knock you right back down? I think feral leap is cool - but maybe tone it down a bit so it only impacts that first assault, and/or knocks down people who are trying to dance.

[Noble]

I dont understand your complaint. So 2 squads who are focused more towards ranged, got out melee'd by 2 squads of melee specialists. The obvious solution would be to build a melee squad? Assualt marines will chew kroot up any day of the week.

[MrBims]

I dont understand your complaint. So 2 squads who are focused more towards ranged, got out melee'd by 2 squads of melee specialists. The obvious solution would be to build a melee squad? Assualt marines will chew kroot up any day of the week.

If you're not going to read the thread, I'm not going to bother explaining yet again why that is false.

[Noble]

There's no reason to be rude man. Your only argument against assualt marines was that you had to build an armory, sooooo, maybe build an armory?

You also started off saying that 1 kroot squad beat 2 fully reinforced tac squads. I'm really not trying to insult you, but there is no reason this should have happened. Dance the kroot around with one squad, and shoot with the other, it's as simple as that. Kroot are fast, and they will get a few attacks off on one of your squads, but trust me, your rines are tough enough to handle it.

An even better solution, is to get your armory quick and throw out a squad of assault marines, these guys are tough as nails in a melee, especially in DC.

[MrBims]

There's no reason to be rude man. Your only argument against assualt marines was that you had to build an armory, sooooo, maybe build an armory?

Wrong. As was the rest of your post. Read the thread

[Noble]

" Tactical squads do as much damage in melee as ranged before upgrades, and ASMs require the Armory."

That is the only mention you ever make of assault marines, anywhere in this thread, maybe you should read it?

Let me apologize to the admins from whom I will probobly get an angry pm, but quit being a dick dude, I'm trying to help you.

[MrBims]

" Tactical squads do as much damage in melee as ranged before upgrades, and ASMs require the Armory."

That is the only mention you ever make of assault marines, anywhere in this thread, maybe you should read it?

Let me apologize to the admins from whom I will probobly get an angry pm, but quit being a dick dude, I'm trying to help you.

So I make a reference to the tech tree in a post not even directed to the imbalance issue this thread is about. Your point?

Apparently you're not going to read the thread, so I'll make this simple. Kroot Carnivores do too much morale damage and have too fast of a morale regeneration rate. It's that simple, has nothing to do with damage. They break Tac squads twice their size in seconds, and do the exact same to ASMs, which I have said several times is why they do not work as good as people are saying they do. It doesn't matter how much damage ASMs do in melee, if they have no morale they can not outdamage Kroot.

It doesn't take much reading to see what I've said.

[Noble]

As others have tried to tell you, it doesnt matter if your ASM's or Tac squads in melee lose their moral, the squad shooting the kroot is going to be doing all the killing. If I can dance fully upgraded banshees with FOF then you can dance kroot.

[MrBims]

As others have tried to tell you, it doesnt matter if your ASM's or Tac squads in melee lose their moral, the squad shooting the kroot is going to be doing all the killing. If I can dance fully upgraded banshees with FOF then you can dance kroot.

And what do you think the Kroot are going to do, sit there? You forget they move faster than Space Marines. Add leap into the mix, and the massive accuracy penalty while moving (10% almost all-around except Necrons) and dancing doesn't work like it did in WA.

And I still lose more Requisition than my opponent does.

[Iajaru]

kroots dont get feral leap until they build their "armory" and research the skill.telling anyone that doesnt agree with you to reread the thread wont make you right

ive pointed out several options if you cant win.. dow is a rts, it requires *strategy* theres a reason tac squads suck until t2 its because they are awesome after that. they break easy no matter what you fight- khorne/kroots/fire warriors/tac squads with flamers/even guardians, the reason they do so is because they are ranged units that arent supposed to die.. just backup fire support. not even mentioning that at t2 they get sergeants with a plasma pistol and rally ability + normal morale boost

option1 : upgrade tac squad weapons/sergeants
option2: assault marines
option3: run toward a turret/upgraded listening post
option4: 2 words Land_Speeder<< my fav sm vehicle
option5: force commander(since if they picked kroot path 1st they obviously dont have their commander out)
option6: quit crying imba when the game hasnt even been out for over 2 weeks, and when ppl try to help you dont act like a jerk

[Noble]

"And what do you think the Kroot are going to do, sit there? You forget they move faster than Space Marines. Add leap into the mix, and the massive accuracy penalty while moving (10% almost all-around except Necrons) and dancing doesn't work like it did in WA.

And I still lose more Requisition than my opponent does."

No, most probobly they wont sit there, they will go after the squad shooting them, in which case you should start running that squad around, stop your other one, and start shooting the kroot with it. Most melee units move faster than spacemarines, this doesnt make dancing impossible. As I said, I find it quite easy to dance banshees, which are faster than kroot in the first place, and can have FOF.

Also, Feral Leap is a tier 2 ability, if you only have 2 tac squads and they have feral leap, you simply got out played. And as Iajaru said, build a force commander, he would make mincemeat out of any kroot squad, hell he'd make mincemeat out of 3 kroot squads.

I hope you never go up against sluggas or banshees, cause kroot are tiddlywinks compared to those units.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I think kroot morale breaking is fine. They're scary spindly vicious creatures with bits of your comrades leaking out from between their teeth, after all.

As for beating them with Tacs, I say, forget the ASMs. Get an armory for the frag grenades and maybe some heavy bolters or flamers.

[ir0nside]

Upgraded Tacs completely obliterate them. Simply fall back and re-engage. This isn't nearly as big of a problem as some people are making it out to be. Tau have a few "imba" things, such as the number of jumps Vespids have, and two bugs such as Crisis flamer reload time and TC knockdown effect, but Kroot morale damage certainly isn't one of them.

In fact, I think that this is a completely bogus claim. I rarely see Tacs break in melee with Kroots "quickly", and the few times it occurs is because the Tacs had their morale eaten up from a prior engagement. Kroots do not break Tacs quickly, and with a tiny bit of dancing before the second Kroot squad arrived, you'd have brought the first one around. Problem is you didn't dance them, you chose to melee them - your fault. By the time he had his second out, you should have had reinforcements.

More squads = more dancing = his CC loses.

[Carl]

Actually (unless things have chanmged and i don't think they have), Tacs do better damage to them in Melee.

Trouble is that in Melee they take less shooting damage and no real morale damage (1/10th from shooting, and tacs don't do a lot of morale damage in CC as far as i can see).

[ir0nside]

That isn't what I said. The point is that he was fighting one Kroot squad with two Tac squads.. and foolishly sent a Tac squad into melee, rather than simply dancing the Kroot around while his 2nd squad tore them to pieces.

He said "but a second squad arrived!".. but by that time, he should have had reinforcements. The Tau had Vespid rushed and failed, thus was 300/50 behind in the resource department. All he had to do was fall back while pursuing a few upgrades, then return and smash him with combined arms. Upgraded Tacs own Kroot.

[Carl]

My point is (but for the damage reduction against ranged you get in CC), sending one squad into melee with them while the other shot would actually have killed the Kroot Quiker in theroy, you just take more damage back doing it. However it's easier to do, and you can switch which squad melees them next time.

[ir0nside]

Well, I'm assuming the root of his problem is that his Tacs were demoralized by the Vespid sonic-pulse (huge morale damage), and very soon after encountered the Kroot. By meleeing them toe to toe instead of playing it smart and dancing them, they were broken quickly. Upon losing them, he took the typical route and came to post about "imba" before thinking it through.

I mean, just listen, everyone - can you hear the nerf cries resounding on every forum, where masses of players are unable to ever melee Kroot because Kroot break morale like Flayed Ones? What, you can't?

Oh, that's probably because it's bullcrap.

[Carl]

I agree Iornside, it will be BS.

I was just saying that if you didn't know about the DPS drop for ranged and where dumb enough to do what you described, it was understandable he was upset, i never said it was a valid complaint.

[MrBims]

Well, I'm assuming the root of his problem is that his Tacs were demoralized by the Vespid sonic-pulse (huge morale damage), and very soon after encountered the Kroot. By meleeing them toe to toe instead of playing it smart and dancing them, they were broken quickly. Upon losing them, he took the typical route and came to post about "imba" before thinking it through.

You're making some pretty big, and some pretty invalid, assumptions.

[Carl]

First, whilst Iornside is correct and numbers arn't evrything, the numbers can be informative.

According to those numbers it would take the Kroot 12 seconds to break you if they don't kill anyone. If they actually kill enough Tacs to create the insta break affect you mention, then you should not be putting them into CC with Kroot.

Ohh, and the figures have changed from WA, Tacs DO do better ranged damage than Melee damage to Kroot.

10.7DPS for Bolters
8.7DPS for Tac Melle
13.7DPS for Kroot Melee

Dance em, if they make CC your dead.

[ir0nside]

You're making some pretty big, and some pretty invalid, assumptions.

Well, it can't really happen the way you paint it to be. The game doesn't just have it in for you, and treat you worse than it does other players. Even if Kroot did in fact have some mystical ability to break morale like you say - which they do not - you still could have defeated them by dancing. Either way, it was your own fault. Please adapt before shouting "imba" from the hilltops.

[Noble]

"You're making some pretty big, and some pretty invalid, assumptions."

You keep making these one sentence retorts to peoples arguments that never actually amount to anything. You havnt presented a single retort to anyones arguments, all you've done is restated your own flawed perspective on the game. Seriously, for 4 pages now people have been telling you how to deal with the kroot, have you even ONCE tried ANY of the strategies suggested?

[ashideena]

MrBims states, IN HIS ORIGINAL POST, that he went from 300 morale to 150 very quickly. That means, he wasn't still morale damaged from the Vespids. That is why he is upset with you guys. I would be too, honestly.

Also, in general, at that point in the game he was probably almost as squeezed for resources as the Tau player. In case you guys missed it, he built a turret, and was probably generally slowed by the need to deal with the rush. I agree he got outplayed, but seriously, you guys need to start being more constructive.

For my own advice, I would just echo Carl about needing at least one cc squad to tangle with theirs. In the situation he was in, he needed to fall back. However, it is sort of silly that one squad of 6 not only shattered one (nearly full)tac squad in melee, but lived long enough under fire from another for the tau player to bring reinforcements to bear.

[McGilles]

Is this topic still active?

I dont find any problems fighting Carnivours, nor does the remaining 95% of the people find!

Its just bad tactics and has nothing to do with any imba units!
I say lets close the topic caus this isnt a discussion caus the topicstarter doesnt want to discuss this, he wants to tell us...