[1.2 Balance] Proof that Calliopes are Imblanced v2.0

[DrunkenOne]

Played a friendly vs my clanmate bentguru who is currently #1 axis, I am allies. I've played maybe 20 1v1s as allies. Please try to explain how the calliope is not overpowered after watching this replay. I'd link it in the post but apparently you can't do that on balance forums, and no one reads the replay forums, so yeah.

http://www.gamereplays.org/community...owtopic=146342

or

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=113751

Watch the replay before commenting please, I'd like this thread to be about the replay and not peoples percieved beliefs about calliopes being overpowered or not. Too many threads on this forum have people babbling what they believe is the truth do to experience in a 4v4 against 4 hard comps or some crap like that. In this case, I have provided evidence conclusively prooving my point. The replay really speaks for itself.

I'd like to ask the moderators if they can watch this thread and delete off topic posts, seeing how this is one of the first posts in this forum which actually gives conclusive proof to its balance claims and I don't want it being derailed.

[Bentguru]

To lay out my thoughts on calliopes in detail:

"teching" to calliopes is a completely passive process. Unlike teching to stugs, it costs no manpower, and no fuel. This allows allied players to funnel everything into the infantry battle, moreso allowing them to get nades and/or BARs ( i realize drunk didn't get BARs, but stay with me here). This forces the axis player to do likewise. The entire game I was attempting to tech up to tier 3, but due to drunk being a very good player I either had to match him man for man with infantry (which prevents me from spending the 600 mp i need to get the sturm armory) or lose the entire map (which obviously isn't an option. Unlike me, Drunk can be aggressive as he wants, since his calliope costs 0 fuel he doesn't need to hoard fuel or fight that hard for it (though he does anyway to deny it to me) or put manpower into passive area's that didn't serve him on the front lines. He does eventually lose the infantry battle, not completely, but I do cut him off from all the important fuel points on the map. Yet because he has gone armor, he doesn't need it. His calliope makes it onto the field anyway, and as you can see completely changes the game since my counter to it (while near-immediate) is slow since I was forced to fight tooth and nail to not be over-run. Ensueing armor battles illustrate another gripe I have, allied armor gains veterancy entirely too quickly. Allied armor frequently gets up a lvl by killing off an infantry squad, which for them is childsplay. By comparison, allied infantry has to engage in 3-4 fights before getting promoted. Seeing how amazingly powerful allied vet tanks are, this is slightly moronic.

[DrunkenOne]

Agreed. I had +10 fuel income for most of the game until I retook my strat point with the AC (ZOMG ACS ARE WORTHLESS?!?!?!?), which reconnected my side. Pretty much all allies have to do is survive until they get 5 CP, and then it becomes damn hard for the axis player to stop.

Hell I didn't even have munitions to whore barrage in this game ( I used it I think once?) and calliopes are still obviously overpowered.

And totally agree about allied armor veterancy. Total and complete bullshit, especially given how ridiculously fast they become vets. I think I killed an mg squad and became a vet. And vet calliopes can easilly penetrate stug frontal armor, meaning you need to either win the 1st fight as axis, or you will lose eventually.

[Alcorr]

To lay out my thoughts on calliopes in detail:

"teching" to calliopes is a completely passive process. Unlike teching to stugs, it costs no manpower, and no fuel. This allows allied players to funnel everything into the infantry battle, moreso allowing them to get nades and/or BARs ( i realize drunk didn't get BARs, but stay with me here). This forces the axis player to do likewise. The entire game I was attempting to tech up to tier 3, but due to drunk being a very good player I either had to match him man for man with infantry (which prevents me from spending the 600 mp i need to get the sturm armory) or lose the entire map (which obviously isn't an option. Unlike me, Drunk can be aggressive as he wants, since his calliope costs 0 fuel he doesn't need to hoard fuel or fight that hard for it (though he does anyway to deny it to me) or put manpower into passive area's that didn't serve him on the front lines. He does eventually lose the infantry battle, not completely, but I do cut him off from all the important fuel points on the map. Yet because he has gone armor, he doesn't need it. His calliope makes it onto the field anyway, and as you can see completely changes the game since my counter to it (while near-immediate) is slow since I was forced to fight tooth and nail to not be over-run. Ensueing armor battles illustrate another gripe I have, allied armor gains veterancy entirely too quickly. Allied armor frequently gets up a lvl by killing off an infantry squad, which for them is childsplay. By comparison, allied infantry has to engage in 3-4 fights before getting promoted. Seeing how amazingly powerful allied vet tanks are, this is slightly moronic.

Agreed.

[Timeless]

Or you could do like Promethius does - the number 1 rated Allied player. I was speaking to him in the lobby yesterday and he claims he never even makes tanks at all. Just infantry and AT guns. He uses airborne for his AT infantry. I know you beat him once, Bent, but look at his record. It's insane.

[DrunkenOne]

Watch the replay before commenting please, I'd like this thread to be about the replay and not peoples percieved beliefs about calliopes being overpowered or not. Too many threads on this forum have people babbling what they believe is the truth do to experience in a 4v4 against 4 hard comps or some crap like that. In this case, I have provided evidence conclusively prooving my point. The replay really speaks for itself.

[Bentguru]

I've beaten promethius twice now timeless, and except for some extremely lucky nades (even he admits that), our record would be 3-0 to me.

Recoiless rifles require munitions, you can DENY that to an allied player by being agressive and taking map control

AT guns are vulnerable to infantry and can be flanked by armor. So while they are powerful, they are also counterable to a well-prepared axis player.

You cannot DENY manpower short of blowing up the allied HQ. And manpower is the ONLY thing needed to field calliopes, pershings, tigers, stuh's, etc. All the allied player has to do is to survive and maintain an agressive stance against an axis player to force him to spend his mp on infantry and not teching. Then the calliopes come out and it's GG.

[GrimgorkGalle]

I am with you that the Calliope needs nerfing, but that playback isn't really a proof. I think the main problem is the barrage, and you did get one that. So you did fight against shermans at the end.
The Point is that these damn Calliopes come so early in game witohout any fuel cost... I had several games like that...

[DrunkenOne]

....I dont even know how to respond. Fight against shermans? I didn't build shermans. And you say theres no proof in the playback while simultaniously saying that "damn callopes come so early in game without any fuel cost..."

Wow just wow.

[Bentguru]

Shermans take fuel and manpower to tech to. I can cut off the fuel. If drunkenone had been airborne he'd have been screwed since he had 0 fuel and 0 munitions. As the game was played he had no chance to get out serious armor.

Calliopes cost 0 fuel, 0 mp to tech too, have no counter-part axis unit (cause we all agree the stuh is beyound worthless), and are amazing against infantry and armor (especially if you have barrage or got 1 vet level).

[Boomstar]

Not much new here can't deny manpower = can't deny off map tank. And this game is heavily balanced around aggressviely denying enemy resources. The callipoe just comes the soonest so its felt the most heavily (oh and its got a kick ass ability too heh )

[fldash]

I don't understand. If all they can produce is one Calliope, and you can't effectively take it out using your armor, then you aren't a very good player. I've never been callioped spammed effectively. They've tried plenty, but it's not THAT hard to defense against. Of course, this is just my opinion. With that said, I would mind the cost being raised to 700, possibly 800.

[Timeless]

That and the fact that the Stuh leaves entirely too much to be desired, so an Axis player must make it all the way down in CP to get a Tiger. Games are most often long decided by then.

Um, you do realize, FL, that Bent is the #1 Axis player? That Drunken is in the top 10. How much better would you like them to be in 1on1? As good as you are? How high up in 1on1 are you? Cracks me up, some of the comments made.

[DrunkenOne]

FL, did you even watch the replay? Or are you another forum whore who loves spamming threads with their "wisdom" without even reading them besides the title?

[Sturmhaubitze]

I agree that the Calliope's current set-up is a bit much. The replay confirms it fairly well. Though this also applies to other called-in tanks, it's just more apparent with the Calliope.

For the same CP, but 100 MP more, you can get a StuH42 and a Stormtrooper squad from the Blitzkrieg doctrine. Unfortunately the StuH42 is not effective against tanks at all, and at 100 MP more than the Calliope the combination doesn't seem effective in comparison. StuH42's are great at what they do (Rampage all over infantry and bases), but the Stormtrooper squad doesn't synergize well with the StuH42 as well as they would with a regular StuG. Making the StuH42 call-in cheaper or lower in CP wouldn't help since you're just making a poor choice less painful to take. It's still a poor choice. Shifting the StuH42 to another doctrine altogether (It might fit Defensive or Terror), and replacing it with a StuG call-in or other option, might make it more palatable.

Though this still doesn't change the fact that called-in tanks cost no fuel. They probably shouldn't cost the same amount of fuel as their built counterparts (It is a commander ability you had to work for), but even a third or half of the fuel cost would suffice in allowing a player to deny their usage. You can currently deny someone the use of munitions-costly commander abilities, so assigning a fuel cost to called-in tanks would allow you to deny those as well if you controlled the fuel points.

Right now a Tiger Ace costs 1000 MP. If it cost 800 MP and 60 Fuel, for example, it would still be a nice deal but you could be denied getting it if you couldn't hold any fuel points. Similarly a Calliope could cost 500 MP and 30 Fuel, forcing you to play smart and hold those fuel points. If you spent all your fuel on Sticky Bombs, Grenades, BAR and other infantry-boosting abilities, you'd be hard-pressed to call in that Calliope if it had a fuel cost.

[blah238]

Offmap tanks need to cost fuel in addition to manpower. In addition the Calliope's barrage refire rate needs to be at least doubled if not tripled, and cost increased to at least 175 munitions.

[Boomstar]

Yes I did, its what I've been saying all along he denied you fuel, so you couldn't (or rather shouldn't) have tanks. But he had to use his fuel costing stugs to try and beat back your callipoes.

Like I said theres not to much new here (to me) the Callipoe and all off map tanks will remain too powerfull (well not the STuH thats poopy) till they have a fuel cost.

[fldash]

DrunkenOne, I did NOT watch the reply which I admit is a fault, however I do respect your and Bentguru's knowledge and skill. I simply think you are forgetting that the Axis can get TANKS without fuel also, including the best tank in the game.

I treat Calliope's much like I do Howtzer's or 88's. You get in there and take them out no matter what the cost. With that said, it may take a lot more than 600 manpower for you to take them out, but it'd probably take more than that to take out the forementioned items as well.

I will admit the Calliope is extremely powerful when in the right hands. However, it does still cost some munitions (which if you effectively have map control) will only grant him a few barrages against you. Assuming you don't have your tanks and infantry on top of each other, those barrages will do negligible damage and allow you to repair thus making him waste 125 munitions.

All-in-all, 600 manpower may be too cheap to call it in and 125 munitions too cheap to use it's ability. However, it's not grossly imbalanced. Only a slight adjustment may be needed, not a nerf.

Timeless: my rank in the ladder has nothing to do with my understanding of the game.

[Pin]

Hey Bentguru, are you actually the #1 axis player? If so maybe I'm missing a lot of what you know, but here are my thoughts:

You made a few mistakes at the beginning of the game. The first was that you didn't capture the fuel and ammo points right beside your base. Maybe this was because you lost a pioneer squad in your rush to the right side. Either way, you claim that the entire game you were trying to tech to tier 3, this could be part of the reason.

Second, you made an MG but placed it in a building where it never engaged, and then you engaged in a huge battle WITHOUT said MG where you lost one entire squad of volks.

Third, you didn't upgrade your volks with MP40s. I have no idea why you wouldn't, as this could have been decisive in the infantry battle. I think the biggest part of this is that volks with MP40s are what WIPE OUT infantry squads. Drunken had veteran rifle squads and saved manpower doing so throughout the game.

Later in the game, Drunken waged a war against you on two fronts, but you focused only on the right front. There were a lot of points on your left, including the fuel and ammo that were, again, right beside your base, that you coudl have taken.

Also, you never built a tier 2 building, which produces the important AT gun. IMO your strategy to skip a tier to #3 is a strong one, but in this case it was the risk that cost you the game, not the calliopes. Had you invested in the second tier, a mortar in combination with your MGs may have been decisive in defending against 3 squads of riflemen, and even one AT gun would have made a huge difference in the decisive battle against his first calliope (and perhaps may have killed the greyhound).

So ya, thats what I think.

[Sturmhaubitze]

DrunkenOne, I did NOT watch the reply which I admit is a fault, however I do respect your and Bentguru's knowledge and skill. I simply think you are forgetting that the Axis can get TANKS without fuel also, including the best tank in the game.

I treat Calliope's much like I do Howtzer's or 88's. You get in there and take them out no matter what the cost. With that said, it may take a lot more than 600 manpower for you to take them out, but it'd probably take more than that to take out the forementioned items as well.

I will admit the Calliope is extremely powerful when in the right hands. However, it does still cost some munitions (which if you effectively have map control) will only grant him a few barrages against you. Assuming you don't have your tanks and infantry on top of each other, those barrages will do negligible damage and allow you to repair thus making him waste 125 munitions.

All-in-all, 600 manpower may be too cheap to call it in and 125 munitions too cheap to use it's ability. However, it's not grossly imbalanced. Only a slight adjustment may be needed, not a nerf.

Timeless: my rank in the ladder has nothing to do with my understanding of the game.

Keep in mind that a Calliope without munitions is basically a Sherman. A Sherman with no fuel cost, and only a small increase in manpower cost, is quite a steal with fuel being such a premium resource. And you don't even need to build a tank depot to get it (even more fuel saved), though the upgraded gun is eventually imperative once StuG's get out there.

[fldash]

Very nice rundown Pin, I'll watch for those things when I view the replay.

[Alcorr]

I simply think you are forgetting that the Axis can get TANKS without fuel also, including the best tank in the game.

Except that the allies can get a calliope much faster than a tiger or tiger ace and thus can turn the game around before axis even gets a chance to use the tiger or tiger ace.

Keep in mind that a Calliope without munitions is basically a Sherman. A Sherman with no fuel cost, and only a small increase in manpower cost, is quite a steal with fuel being such a premium resource. And you don't even need to build a tank depot to get it (even more fuel saved), though the upgraded gun is eventually imperative once StuG's get out there.

Exactly, by not building anything other than barracks and/or wsc, you will have more resources for calliopes and fuel for riflemen upgrades than if you did build them.

[Pin]

Keep in mind that a Calliope without munitions is basically a Sherman. A Sherman with no fuel cost, and only a small increase in manpower cost, is quite a steal with fuel being such a premium resource. And you don't even need to build a tank depot to get it (even more fuel saved), though the upgraded gun is eventually imperative once StuG's get out there.

Also 88s and Howitzers are stationary, so the comparison to calliopes is not really apt. On the other hand, note that bent did come out with a tiger in the end... this game was a lot closer than it might appear. As I mentioned in the previous post bentguru did make some mistakes, so even though he is the #1 axis player doesn't mean something is imbalanced when he loses. His strategy of cutting off supply was good, but it also forced him to fight far away from his base which is another part of why he may have loss.

I think the claim that the calliope is reasonable, especially if it comes from a #1 player who has a feel for such things. However, I definitely don't think it needs a nerf after watching the replay, perhaps a minor balance change.

[DrunkenOne]

Hey Bentguru, are you actually the #1 axis player? If so maybe I'm missing a lot of what you know, but here are my thoughts:

Yeah, hes #1.

You made a few mistakes at the beginning of the game. The first was that you didn't capture the fuel and ammo points right beside your base. Maybe this was because you lost a pioneer squad in your rush to the right side. Either way, you claim that the entire game you were trying to tech to tier 3, this could be part of the reason.

He didnt cap the fuel and ammo at the start because he needed all of his troops on the right to fight me off, since he knew i was gonna rush him with most of my troops to contest the fuel.

Second, you made an MG but placed it in a building where it never engaged, and then you engaged in a huge battle WITHOUT said MG where you lost one entire squad of volks.

agreed.

Third, you didn't upgrade your volks with MP40s. I have no idea why you wouldn't, as this could have been decisive in the infantry battle. I think the biggest part of this is that volks with MP40s are what WIPE OUT infantry squads. Drunken had veteran rifle squads and saved manpower doing so throughout the game.

He had mp40 volks, dont know if all of them had mp40s, but at least 1 did I remember.

Later in the game, Drunken waged a war against you on two fronts, but you focused only on the right front. There were a lot of points on your left, including the fuel and ammo that were, again, right beside your base, that you coudl have taken.

He didnt need to take those points, as he had me cut off. He could have taken them for the mp but needed his units more to fight me (until end when he began capping it).

Also, you never built a tier 2 building, which produces the important AT gun. IMO your strategy to skip a tier to #3 is a strong one, but in this case it was the risk that cost you the game, not the calliopes. Had you invested in the second tier, a mortar in combination with your MGs may have been decisive in defending against 3 squads of riflemen, and even one AT gun would have made a huge difference in the decisive battle against his first calliope (and perhaps may have killed the greyhound).

If he had gone tier 2 first he wouldnt have even had stugs when my calliope arrived.

[Timeless]

If all they can produce is one Calliope, and you can't effectively take it out using your armor, then you aren't a very good player.

This is why I responded with what I said. You didn't bother watching the rec, nor knew if 1 or 3 Calliopes were made before commenting. What the post was about was Allies being able to spam infantry wout worrying about teching and still being able to get tanks relatively quickly, WHILE depriving Axis of map control. Have I faced Calliopes plenty of times and destroyed them easily? Sure, I have, but I'm not so naive as to dismiss the issue, especially making comments such as the one you did against some of the very best players in the game. It's one thing to understand balance on paper, it's quite another to feel balance under the stress of competition. Rank and number of games does come into play because if you're playing easier opponents many things work that otherwise wouldn't. That's not to say my opinion doesn't count because I'm not as good as Bent, Drunken, Sepha, etc, etc. But that is to say that until we have faced (and this goes for all of us) the opposition in question, the heated tactics, the moves that may or may not be imbalanced, then we are not in as good a position to make some of the comments I've seen on these boards. For example, if you've never faced, time and again, Riflemen spam (or consider it to be a lackluster 3-4 riflemen with bar), it's far easier to make comments regarding the effort needed when suggesting mg placement and micro.

[Bentguru]

Drunk commented on your post well enough Pin.

The one thing I would add is that I was never constrained by fuel in this game. I controlled the +16 and had a OP on it for a very long time, it was generating more than enough fuel for me to tech and sustain stug production.

My limiting resources were manpower and munitions to a lesser extent (I didn't have the munitions to instantly upgrade volks to mp40's, and even without they can match un-BAR'd rifles). I need manpower to get to tier 3, 660 to get to the building to be exact. Thats three squads of infantry I would not have had against drunk's riflespam, and without those three squads I would have lost map control which = death.

[Pin]

OK, I see that the nature of the map allowed bent to control it more than it seemed like he did. In that case I can definitely see where both of you guys are coming from. On the other hand I still think he played far from a perfect game and the calliopes could probably have been overcome.

He didnt need to take those points, as he had me cut off. He could have taken them for the mp but needed his units more to fight me (until end when he began capping it).

Bent mentioned he was short on munitions as well, and like I said earlier he rarely WIPED out your squads, which I think is important in winning in the longterm (tricking your opponent to overcommit or defeat him decisively and quickly to get squad kills). Munitions plays a big part in that. Even with a 120MP pioneer squad he could have capped a lot of those points (this is throughout the entire game IMO).

If he had gone tier 2 first he wouldnt have even had stugs when my calliope arrived.

Aren't AT guns with MG support an acceptable way to counter the calliope as well? What I'm trying to say is that if he went tier 2 he could have dealt with your riflesquads, which were really his main problem throughout the game up till the calliopes, much, MUCH earlier, and that would have been decisive in forcing you to spend more MP than him.

My limiting resources were manpower and munitions to a lesser extent (I didn't have the munitions to instantly upgrade volks to mp40's, and even without they can match un-BAR'd rifles). I need manpower to get to tier 3, 660 to get to the building to be exact. Thats three squads of infantry I would not have had against drunk's riflespam, and without those three squads I would have lost map control which = death

Like I said above, I don't think you won enough battles decisively enough to force him to spend more MP to compensate for his losses, while he did that to you a couple times.

Regardless, my main point is still that tier 2 is there for a reason. Bent, whats your explanation for not using it? Like I said I've only played 15 games 1v1 ranked so maybe I'm missing something

[Timeless]

I think because AT guns are primarily defensive and on top of that can be out flanked easily, as well as subject to the Calliope special. In order to get AT guns, Axis must pause to build a Krieg (costing more fuel and MP) before teching to tier3 for their own tanks. So, if you have one AT gun covering another, the Calliope can barrage one of them killing it and your defending MG, then simply run around and flank the second one. Stugs, then, become the better choice. At least, in my experience.

[Virigoth]

I stopped watching the first replay after the second calliope showed up

The problem with Calliope is exactly opposite of StuH. It's an effective anti-infantry, anti-armor platform AND an indirect arty unit to boot. It allows the allied player to have an effective heavy armor force without a drop of fuel commited to the task.

If instead of calliope the allied player summoned Stormtroopers and a StuH to a battlefield, he still would have lost the game when those two StuGs rolled on the NE part of the map.

Calliope needs a nerf to it's gun along the lines of StuH making it a support weapon + indirect arty.
StuH needs a slight buff to it's gun (range, accuracy, reload time, something) since it has no additional benefit of providing awsome arty barrages.

[Bentguru]

There are a couple reasons tier 2 doesn't work that well in competitive play.

1) Mortars, while still useful, aren't quite that handy since top allied players very rarely go the WSC .30 cal route. And even if they do you have snipers from your WQ to clear them out.

2) Grenadiers cost 300 mp for 4 guys, and as a squad they aren't incredibly useful until you upgrade them with lmg's or shreks. Both of these are going to cost munitions, and as I pointed out I never had a real overbundance of it. Furthermore, Allied armor in general tears infantry apart.

3) Pak's aren't that useful against allied armor. To begin with they lack the AP round ability the allies get, and so in general do much less damage. Since allied armor can shred infantry so fast, lone pak's tend to die just by flanking. Lastly, and this is a comment on AT guns in general, they are very immobile. Had I gotten 2 or 3 out with mg42 cover without losing map control in the process, drunk would have probably just moved his calliope somewhere else and attacked that point. Thats all assuming he doesn't have the munitions to barrage my Paks to death and the mg42 covering them.

And again, I was being pressed hard enough that sacrificing 420mp (about 2 infantry squads) just to get the building would have put me at a big disadvantage. You are right in that my principle failure in this game was that I was never able to completely kill off his infantry squads, partly my mistake and partly luck for him since I can recall several times where a long riflemen with 0 health makes it away. Usually I am able to do that, and because of it buy the time needed to advance to tier 3. Here I did not. Still, I did have total map control in terms of munitions and fuel. That SHOULD give me a very large advantage, offmap armor for no fuel and no teching requirements that actually cost something nullifies that.

[Virigoth]

It's simple.

You had enough infantry to kill off his AT guns. You had 1 tank out in the field more or less when he rolled out the calliope. If calliope was not an actual tank, he would have lost the game right there having no fuel to tech to tanks, and at best being able to maintain an equal infantry fight.

[Pin]

Haha ya, I remember seeing that lone rifleman running away just as he got level 2 veterancy, that sucked.

Well, you've convinced me and made a good argument. Calliopes do need a nerf, and until they get one I'm going ot get a few more wins

[Painboy]

Yeah I wouldn't try to nitpick what Bent should or shouldn't have done. There is no such thing as a perfect game. But he did as good a job as anyone I have seen microing those MGs. Very impressive. Yet for all that he still gets beat. This would be my other problem with Calliope or armor showing up so quickly. All those MGs he bought to take the map lose 90% of their effectiveness when vehicles show up.

I'm curious if maybe tech powers had a prerequiste tier might help? i.e. to get Calliope you need to at least build a Tank Depot.

[Boomstar]

I'm curious if maybe tech powers had a prerequiste tier might help? i.e. to get Calliope you need to at least build a Tank Depot.

It would help but it would favor allies a bit to much because, most of the time getting the tank depot with allies is pretty manageable. But getting panzer command with axis is very difficult.

[Painboy]

Maybe the Axis only needing Battlephase to get the Tigers, Assualt Phase for Stuhs (provided they make them worthwhile at some point).

Tank Depot+Supply Yard = 450mp 140 fuel.
Skirmish+Assault= 400mp 85 fuel
+Battle= 600mp 150 Fuel.

Battle would be a little more but you are talking about a Tiger vs. Calliope.

[DrunkenOne]

^^^ I like it.

[Tankcommander]

Well I just want to say one thing about the armor company. The strength of it is tanks. If you can't get any tanks, what good does it do you. Besides, maybe it is just me, but I always have tons of fuel, whichever side I am on.

As for the calliope barrage, it can be powerful, but if you rush it and get close 125 munitions soar over your head and do nothing.

(BTW I do admit I haven't watched the video)

[DrunkenOne]

Well thanks for your brilliant response without watching the replay tankcommander.

[Croak]

The only major error that I saw was in the first Calliope vs 2x Stug fight, when the engineers were repping the Calliope. They should have been the target.

If they were taken out quickly, I think you would have ended up with one dead Calliope, one dead engineer squad, 2 live Stugs, an experience boost on the way to your Tiger CP, plus a discounted AT gun that maybe could have been recovered and put to some use against the follow-on Calliopes, instead of becoming a Volkstomb.

Methinks the game was lost right there.

That said, you were potentially up against the wall as soon as he got his 5 CP, but it wasn't a guaranteed loss.

[DrunkenOne]

Volkstomb.

10/10

[Vicious_CB]

actually the opp had map control far before he got his first calli. That AC rush really pushed you back allowing him to take 75% of the map. Losing the left side of the map + getting raped by the sticky/calli was the GG point right there

He had map control but I see where you are comming from, he didnt even have to make a tank depot and got 2 tanks out.

Also skipping the krieg really hurt you there. Im sure a mix of AT guns and stugs would have really helped push back those callis on the right

[Fabled]

i'm pretty new too coh but yes it does seem pretty imba. based on what little i know it seems the call was designed to mybe have 1 on a battlefield mid too late game, spamming them (0-o) aint really on. A quick fix could be too remove its main gun or give it a lower armour class. it aint historically accurate but would fix the issue. Great replay though, very entertaining

[Vicious_CB]

In mass team games I rarely see regular shermans anymore. Its all callis + pershings late game

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Then those people are stupid. They would get a lot more mileage out of a mix of tanks.

[Fitz]

Newby question :

Does an off map tank count towards your pop ?

[Vicious_CB]

2 pershings + 2 calliopes > 1 pershing,1 calliope,1 sherman,1 wolverine

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Yes, the pop cast of an off-map ability is shown when you mouseover it.

Vicious:

2 pershings
2 calliopse
3000 manpower
1 pershing
1 calliope
1 sherman
1 wolverine
2220 manpower

try
1 Pershing
1 Calliope
3 76mm Shermans
~2900 manpower, 500 fuel. You will obviously have the fuel to spare in the late game. And that force is far more powerful and flexible than 2 calliopes and 2 pershings.

[Albi]

Agreed. I had +10 fuel income for most of the game until I retook my strat point with the AC (ZOMG ACS ARE WORTHLESS?!?!?!?), which reconnected my side. Pretty much all allies have to do is survive until they get 5 CP, and then it becomes damn hard for the axis player to stop.

Hell I didn't even have munitions to whore barrage in this game ( I used it I think once?) and calliopes are still obviously overpowered.

And totally agree about allied armor veterancy. Total and complete bullshit, especially given how ridiculously fast they become vets. I think I killed an mg squad and became a vet. And vet calliopes can easilly penetrate stug frontal armor, meaning you need to either win the 1st fight as axis, or you will lose eventually.

This post sums up some of the things I and others have been saying for a while.
When there was all this OMG Allies suck threads, I would shake my ead and think, Shit people do not know how to play.

5 CP and you have a tank with out teching.
125 Mun and you have one hell of a rocket volly.
First Squad you kill and you get a vet. (no building a building and then researching it.)

Good posts and replays, good to see good players going at it.

Right now a Tiger Ace costs 1000 MP. If it cost 800 MP and 60 Fuel, for example, it would still be a nice deal but you could be denied getting it if you couldn't hold any fuel points. Similarly a Calliope could cost 500 MP and 30 Fuel, forcing you to play smart and hold those fuel points. If you spent all your fuel on Sticky Bombs, Grenades, BAR and other infantry-boosting abilities, you'd be hard-pressed to call in that Calliope if it had a fuel cost.

This would not help as 30 fuel is still too attainable, with mass rifle and BAR.
Its the CP that kills.

[DarthJames]

(Trying to solve multiple problems at once here)

What if instead of changing the Aillied side:

1. Up the Panzer IV's AT accuracy significantly. (So much so that it is at base equal to the upgraded sherman and with veterancy should beat it).

2. Replace the useless StuH in the Blitz tree with said Panzer IV.


Instantly the Blitz tree suddenly becomes not only viable, but important. At the same xp point that the Allied player gets Calliopes, the Axis Blitz player gets a tank that will kill it in a prolonged fight + a stormtrooper squad.

How much does the stormtrooper squad cost in upgrades to make it truely useful? 150 munitions.

That's close enough on the firing cost Calliope for me liking.


The whole point should be to retain balance while making the two sides still play differently. Don't look to Nerf the Calliope. Look to see what on the Axis side could be changed to counter it.

(By my count I've just solved the PIV problem, the Calliope problem, and the Blitz tree problem. Now I just need someone to tell me how wrong I am ;D)

[Albi]

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How much does the stormtrooper squad cost in upgrades to make it truely useful? 150 munitions.

That's close enough on the firing cost Calliope for me liking.

Shreks cost 150 mun
Dont kill Shermans in one volly, and are in a team of 4 where most die to single hit from the 75mm.