Are cultist aspiring champions affected by upgrades?

[.42.]

Graphicly they do not seem to be affected by power swords, power fist and plasma pistol upgrades. Are they not affected by these at all.

Are they affected by the purge the weak upgrade?

[Carl]

Nope, none of the upgrades have an affect.

[Dark_Avenger]

why did they change that? i noticed it too

[CLR]

Purge the weak works - you get an icon on the ground (it might not be visible on low settings - but I doubt it).

Why the weapons aren't showing up is news to me. I'll look into it.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I'm guessing Purge the Weak is that 8 dot symbol thing. I see it on high settings, dunno about low.

[CLR]

After doing a little research, the upgrades were never intended for the cultist aspiring champions. Whether this is reflected in the description of the upgrade/unit is another story.

As far as visuals go, the upgrades are showing up correctly on raptor and CSM champions which was my main concern.

Hope this clarifies the situation.

[Dark_Avenger]

guess cultist aspirig champions are too good with the weapons eh?

[Carl]

Yep, the Cultist Aspiring Champions have a tottaly diffrent RGD File, and none of the upgrades have modifiers which affect it.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Hmmm... well, okay, that does make it clearer. I guess the ACs that have to work with Cultists are the Weak that have been Purged.

[Hirmetrium]

I wouldnt mind if purge the weak attually affected cultists, since their now the only cappers that dont scale(and PTW comes from AC's -_-). Otherwise I expect them at 1 cap plz...

[Chris]

Another issue related to squad leader upgrades;

Loyalist sergeant plasma pistol graphics are bugged, instead of replacing the bolt pistol the 2 pistols overlap, so you get some weird hybrid. I'm not sure if that happens with champion pistols, it's not really noticable unless you zoom in but I think it should still be fixed.

[Dys]

After doing a little research, the upgrades were never intended for the cultist aspiring champions. Whether this is reflected in the description of the upgrade/unit is another story.

As far as visuals go, the upgrades are showing up correctly on raptor and CSM champions which was my main concern.

Hope this clarifies the situation.

Thanks for clarification, but it begs the question: Why is this so?

Loyalist sergeant plasma pistol graphics are bugged, instead of replacing the bolt pistol the 2 pistols overlap, so you get some weird hybrid. I'm not sure if that happens with champion pistols, it's not really noticable unless you zoom in but I think it should still be fixed.

Sometimes when I see loyalist sarges charging or chasing while shooting (I think its either of these animations) he has a powersword and a powerfist in his left hand. Anybody else see this?

[Hirmetrium]

i think sarge models are bugged, as i have encountered that error in WA too like chris. only happens when running however.

Not seen it on AC's.

[Dark_Avenger]

chris i think this was deliberate

i mean not the graphic bug, but the cuiltist ACs not having weapon upgrades

[Jazhuis]

Maybe it's a combi-weapon upgrade?

For an on-topic clarification, you're saying that the weapon upgrades aren't supposed to apply to Cultist AC's, but Purge the Weak still does? Or do Cultist AC's get bupkis from any of them?

[Carl]

Cultist AC's get NO upgrades whatsoever from anywhere.

[zer0nix]

the last time i saw the 'overlapping models' glitch was on dow 1.0 and when i had just enough free hdd space on c:/ to run dow and no more... i posited that maybe the program simply ran out of space to work with. haven't seen it since, though i don't yet have dc.

[.42.]

Thanks for the reply guys.

So the answer is:

AC weapon upgades do not affect cultist ACs.
PTW does affect the cultist AC that because you get the PTW aura marker on them.

[Nazuel]

Can anyone tell me a reason to still use cultists past tier 1? Or hell to even reinforce them if youre not rushing? Would have to double check but if memory serves their AC is the same cost as CSM/Raptor AC. So youre paying the same cost for......?

[TheDeadlyShoe]

They're cheap meatshields and can infiltrate with your CSMs.

[danuker]

Cultists are also one of the Chaos detectors too.

Do the Cultists AC still cost more than the AC for the CSM, even though they no longer have the AC weapon upgrades?

[White_Pointer]

Reasons to build cultists past tier 1:

- They are cheap
- They can be upgraded with pretty good heavy weapons
- They are detectors
- They can infiltrate
- Cultist AC's still benefit from Purge the Weak

White_Pointer

[.42.]

They're cute. :duck:

[zer0nix]

Cultists are also one of the Chaos detectors too.

Do the Cultists AC still cost more than the AC for the CSM, even though they no longer have the AC weapon upgrades?

i hope someone can answer this as well as my own question: do cultists stay infiltrated while engaged in melee (imho it would be kind of silly if they did)?

[Ktan]

Depends, it would make some sense with units that were commandos (Ork Kommandos!). However, for Chaos units it would seem a bit silly, since they run inot battle screaming and inflitration usually represents them being 'all sneaky, like'.

[Tadatsune]

Well, this is lame. Powersword or Plasma ACs were a great addition to cultist squads in WA, boosting melee strength or firepower... very useful.

You would expect that now that I am supposed to keep building cultists as detectors that they would be strenghtened, not the other way around.

[Carl]

The idea is you have to have a mixed army, if they where actually quiote good it would be a good idea to spam them, but since thier main advantage is that they are detectors and they are fairly average at evrything else, you have a reason to build some, but also a reason to build evrything else too.

Also, regardless of ingame effects, the RGD's say PTW has no affect on cultist AC's.

[Tadatsune]

Meh. Even with the upgraded AC, cultists still die like flies. Its not like the upgrades made them "too good" before. Noone spamed cultist on tier 2 or 3.

Their usefulness as a melee unit wanes quickly, and, while they continue to tie up enemies, it is for briefer and briefer periods of time.

This is where the grenades/plasma come in. Set some of your squads to ranged and get a little fire support out of them. Still, noone would continue building them if it weren't for the detection. The same pop could buy a squad of equally infiltrated CSM toting 4 HB or plasma guns, plus what the AC's got. Furthermore you can berzerk CSM without having them instantly converted to corpses, which is not true for cultists.

So, why take the upgrades?

[Carl]

Furthermore you can berzerk CSM without having them instantly converted to corpses, which is not true for cultists.

So, why take the upgrades?

What i meant is that they don't really want Cultists to be good fighters, (allthough GL do give extra disruption abilities), they're meant to be detectors, nothing more. They are a unit Relic WANTs you to take, but they don't actually want them to be so good you don't take CSM's. Hence they are detectors, but poor actual fighters.

[Kwon]

Hence mixed army.

[Carl]

Exactly Kwon.

Regardless of weather you use Hard Counters opr not in an RTS, the trick to making a unit useful is to allow it to do somthing that no other unit in the army can. If the unit is usful you will take it.

If sevrale units are useful you will get a mixed armies.

[Tadatsune]

Hmm. Perhaps you miss my point. They weren't very powerful with the upgrades. They were in no way a danger to balance or army diversity.

Then, maybe you don't. Perhaps you don't mind that they were made even less combat effective than they were before.

All, I'm saying is that: A) they didn't need a nerf, B) since I have to use them I want them to be able to contribute a just a little bit more to the war effort beyond detection.

[grendizer]

Can someone with DC attach an image of DC with cults affected by Purge the weak?

[Carl]

Hmm. Perhaps you miss my point. They weren't very powerful with the upgrades. They were in no way a danger to balance or army diversity.

perhaps i was a littile unclear myself.

First I don't have DC myself, so I can only comment on their power without the AC upgrades in WA.

Second, I think it's a case of Relic dosen't want them to be any use except as detectoprs. I suspect the reason why is that Cultists with good AC's would allow chaos to do Hard Tech builds even more easily, (no need for a CSM/Raptor squad as is the case witgh the current nerfed champion). Of course that last bit was based off what others have said rather than expiriance BTW.

[Tadatsune]

Heh. I too speculate... but not for much longer... only a few more days now.

This isn't a balance issue, per say. I don't think chaos is going to collapse under the dead weight of inferior cultists. I just find it annoying that I have a 2 pop cap unit as "only" a detector.

Relic wants to make units persistant, rather than obsolete. Thats cool. But the formula shouldn't be: you must keep around crappy unit X because we added a special ability that makes it critcal for the entire army, without it you die.

Look at Guardians: Basic units, detectors, plasma grenades, psychic abilities and hp/damage upgrades. Great choice for a persistant unit. Sure, they may pale in comparison to Aspect warriors, but if I keep a squad or two around they can help out by shooting from the sidelines, tossing in a grenade and entangling a unit in place every once in a while.

Cultist more or less the same: Invisible detectors? fantastic. Fire support capabilities - 5 highly damaging plasma guns or disrupting grenade launchers? fantastic. Decent melee capabilities with Furious Charge? fantanstic.

Fantastic... but not overly so, because they die so easily (and take those nice guns with them). The AC, with his sword and his gun and his aura make them a bit more survivable and effective... or atleast he did. The loss isn't huge, but it is urksome, because now I am being forced to play with a unit which is in some ways inferior to the one I used to discard before. (Obviously the stealth system makes them 100x better, but they aren't the only one to get stealth, including the CSM on their own team.)

Its not realy a blance issue at all, just annoying. Less power = less fun, unless the original values were causing a balance problem.

[Carl]

Its not realy a blance issue at all, just annoying. Less power = less fun, unless the original values were causing a balance problem.

I suspect it was because Cultists where allowing Chaos to do a Hard Tech in DC with too littile outlay for it to be balanced.

Minor point I made a tiny mistake, PTW does not give the Cultist AC any buffs. However, the extra HP's DO affect Cultists. My fault, i assumed all the affect where contained in the PTW reserch RGD. Sorry.

[Tadatsune]

Most likely you are correct.

Still urksome, though.

On a related vein, how easy is it to to a hard tech with the other races? For example, all FW or all Kroot with Tau... Thought the point of making the tier upgrades either/or (as well as the elite hard caps) was to encourage hard teching as an alternate strategy, but to make the rewards of doing less substancial than in DoW...

[Carl]

I don't know for sure, but somone was talking about a hard tech to Zerks for Chaos in the Strategy Forum, they managed it with 2 Cultist and 1 Raptor squad, i think they where getting Zerks in under 3 minutes.

Now imagine if they could drop that Raptor squad because cultists where so good, a bit worrying if you ask me.

The other races I'm not so sure about, but it seems possible from reports on GU effectivness to skip the AP.

SM don't seem able to skip the armoury (need the heavy weapons e.t.c).

err...Not sure after that TBH.

[dreddnott]

I have never seen the Purge the Weak star icon on the Chaos Cultist Aspiring Champions in Dark Crusade.

In fact, I ran a game just now for testing purposes...they don't get the weapons or the actual health upgrade (stuck at around 750 health).

They also don't get the 8-pointed star graphic itself, so looks like some early responders to this thread are hallucinating.

The tooltips for Purge the Weak, Power Sword, and Plasma Pistol specifically refer to ALL Aspiring Champions. FROWNIE FACE -->

[Kwon]

Hah great pic dreddnott

[grendizer]

Thanks for the pic dreddnott.

Then, cultist AC can or cannot use purge the weak? Is the hp bonus there or not?

[Carl]

Yep, add it to the funny pictures thread BTW.

Then, cultist AC can or cannot use purge the weak? Is the hp bonus there or not?

Yep they are, PTW's HP buff to the unit is achived through an ability that only kicks in once PTW has been reserched. thw PTW FX and AC buffs happen through the PTW reserch, which the Cultist AC's are not affected by.

Hope that clears things up.

[grendizer]

So cults get the extra hp but the champion doesn't?

[Tadatsune]

Even if he hard teched to berzerkers, he still need a building to do it. Its armory or temple.

I guess I don't see any difference in validity over going unupgraded Cults/CSM/Raptors -> Berzerkers over going Upgraded Cultists -> Berzerkers.

If he goes the first way its more expensive, but probably easier to survive. The second way is faster/cheaper (perhaps) but leaves you vunerable: even with upgraded ac's and grenades, cultists are weak and you can't build any new squads once you start the tier 2 research.

Purge the weak and cult plasma don't even come in till tier 2. (unless things have changed from WA.)

Edit: Hell, he still need the Barracks to get berzerkers anyway! So, I'm not even sure its that efficient to skip it the first tier...

[Carl]

Edit: Hell, he still need the Barracks to get berzerkers anyway! So, I'm not even sure its that efficient to skip it the first tier...

This is what a lot of SM players are finding TBH from what I hear.

So cults get the extra hp but the champion doesn't?

Yep.

[Tadatsune]

SM are pretty well screwed in terms of fast teching. A) TSM aren't all that fantastic without their tier 2 weapons, B) without the armory, tier 1 has no detectors.

Seems to me B is the real killer.

In theory there should be 3 ways to tech up from tier 1, with 2 possible goals for teching:

1) Balanced Tech - Normal build order utilizing both armory and barracks. The slowest, but offering the most rounded an powerful force from tier 1 into tier 2.

2) Barracks Tech - FC, TSM + Scout Snipers only. Do-able but with 2 drawbacks - no dectection, and no HW available on tier 2 unless you pay for the armory during the transition.

3) Armory Tech - Scout Snipers only. Useless. So what if you can detect? You have no troops to fisght with or upgrade.

So, only one hard tech is do-able (theorycraft, mind you.)
How bout the reward of said teching?

1) Fast Machine Cult - Get those vehicles out early! Potentially Benificial. Early vehicles can kill if the other guy lacks the counters... still no heroes or detectors, though, so risky...

2) Fast Sacred Artifact - Nearly Useless!! Lets see, a building geared to enhance troops and heroes... If I went no armory, then my troops suck, slaping apothecaries on them isn't going to help much. If I went no-barracks then I don't have any troops or heroes anyway. Atleast the Librarian can run around detecting stuff now.

The way I see it, only one of these hard tech paths is viable: Barracks -> Fast Machine Cult. The other ones don't make any sense. However, even that one is setting yourself up for some serious pain if the enemy goes stealth.

---------------------

SM seem to get the worst of it due to the detector thing, shouldn't be so hard with some of the other races. Like I said before, I have no problem with the idea of a chaos armory/cult tech; might be an interesing strategy. You could get a sorcerer out fast and go strait for defilers - provided you aren't killed first, of course.

[.42.]

I looked at the AC's in game before PTW both AC's had 650 hp after CSM AC had 1313hp and the cultist had 750hp.

So cultist AC's are affected by PTW but not to the extent that CSM are. I guess that a spammable 1313 hp heavy high armour invisible detector would be pretty hard to kill making chaos almost immune to stealth tactics.

Does PTW still upgrade the AC's armour class?

Some thing I didn't know before cultist now get 5 heavy weapons with the HW upgrade.

[eXarchProXy]

wow anybody who says SM are screwed in teching hasn't played automatch.

what a crappy little nerf.

Cloaked cultist also will not engage squads in melee. which is a big problem

[Carl]

slaping apothecaries on them isn't going to help much.

IG Commissars help GM squads less in the healing department than Apochs do tacs, yet that and the morale buff is the diffrance between win and lose for GM. Admitedly this is T1, but with the better healing buff of Apoch's i can see them making tac's viabile T2, espe ccially with the way it stacks with Chaplin Healing and the fact that you get him AND the the Librarian who has a crazy Smite power now.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Cloaked cultist also will not engage squads in melee. which is a big problem

Yes they will.

Infiltrated cultists can melee infiltrated. I've even had the AI do that to me. The problem is that while infiltrated they can't actually lock a target in melee.