The patch changes are NOT going to vary and change much if ANY before release, stop saying that. THe patch would already be out with the proposed changes if it wasn't for the localization issue.
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The patch changes are NOT going to vary and change much if ANY before release, stop saying that. THe patch would already be out with the proposed changes if it wasn't for the localization issue.
Europe In Ruins :: Persistent Online War for Company of Heroes and Opposing Fronts (MMORTS)
http://www.moddb.com/mods/8627/europe-in-ruins
* Voted Editor's Choice ModDB 2007
* 9.6 ModDB Rating
I'm really curious on this new map.
Is it a 1vs1? (since theres a dying need on those for ranked games) Although I guess both 2vs2 or 3vs3 would be nice aswell.
Mapname can only make us assume it's going to be urban/industrial. Hoping something in the direction of that huge urban map we got to play in the campaign.
As a side note: It must be sad for the developers to get all the criticism on their patches and game.
You spend tons of times on patches and you hardly get a kind word of thanks for it.
Heck, people should be glad they haven't abandoned us by now and just dropped ANY game support because by the horrible commenting some people have been doing you'd understand it if the Devs stop trying.
So once again, thanks Buggo & the people of Relic.
Maybe allot of us jumped the gun, but I saw what was being changed and allmost dropped a bomb in my pants. I mean even if its Tentative, they would at least show a more balanced list. So are you saying their holding back all of the good axis changes?
Guess we can just wait and see. But i'm gonna love sitting ehre and watch the Billion or so threads spam the forums called "OMFG!1! axis are teh sux now!!!one11!".
Unknown, it says 6p, which means 6 players, or 3v3.
#105
We have no idea what will be in the final patch. I agree that what I saw in the balance changelog looked disheartening, but since we don't actually have the patch in our hands we cannot say that it actually is. The flames and rants that inevitably result from the assumption that everything in the tentative changelog is in the game, combined with the assumption that we know how it will all work out, do nothing for anyone.
Oh I missed the 6p thing, well noticed :P.
I guess it's nice too since there weren't that many 3vs3 maps and from what I recall only Montherme is urban :P.
(I don't think theres any industrial 3vs3 map, right?
with "only" 15 maps you'd expect a man to know em already but apperently not :P)
No, strengthen means to improve or make more powerful.Strengthen and Increased both mean to ADD. So obviously it takes a whopping 7 points to grab me an 88 now.
Guys, the MOST we can get from the balance changes is a key to how THOSE UNITS will work in the patch. We cannot assume ANYTHING about balance. So, my bit on how gameplay will be changed:
-Ostwind will be much weaker against units in cover. Cover will be even more useful against them.
-Pumas no longer spammable. Will force you to use them as support rather than a cheap force to overwhelm your enemy.
-Panzershrek grenadiers in buildings will, I believe, be able to take down a sherman pretty well. I like.
-No more salvaging dead halftracks for 100 munitions.
-For the Fatherland now costs 60 munitions rather than 75. I like. Will use it more.
Not sure if I'm alone in this, but I would definitely like to see a re-designed save menu. As of now, it's not possible for me to look at a list of my saves unless I open the load menu. Kinda of counter-intuitive.
I'm very excited 'bout the Cinematic mode on the replays...it also sounds like you will be able to rewind and fast forward through them? Can anyone confirm from what it sounds like?
Good points demonic, I didn't think of it that way.
I think we should keep in mind that the balance team are not completely disconnected from the online play, and they also don't just throw random numbers and say "let's see how this will work out".
They probably test it intensively. I think it means the changes, while may seem nerfing the axis, have some more logic and reason in them. Maybe they tried to make the players use more diverse armies? I don't know.
What I wan't to say is that we can't really know how it'll all go, but I think it's not hopeless. Maybe it will somehow work out in a statistic way?
At any case, theres a new patch and new strategies to test now, and if the patch will prove to be unbalanced, the changed stats will give us enough stuff to check and test until a new patch will be released.
does that SLI performance thing mean we dont get that ground texture issue? if it doesnt that would really suck, i havent played this game on my main computer since i bought it and i was hoping this patch would be the fix, please mean that it fixes my issue can anyone confirm this?
I hope the accuracy buff rangers are recieving also applies to all infantry AT weapons. Both sides need an accuracy buff and I think it would help keep infantry viable once tanks start rolling out onto the battlefield.
it said specifically "Rangers"
Even so, Relic is notorious for incorporating changes into their patches that aren't mentioned in the changelog. Of course, they're also notorious for making less than completely enlightened decisions concerning balance and leaving certain things broken for extended periods of time *cough*obliterator weapon package*cough*.
A degree of ruthlessness is inherent in any enterprise of consequence.
All axis players will have to admit that the changes to the puma/stug spam and none progression to T4 have been fixed. Panthers sound like monsters now and hopefully they will give axis the balance in tank v tank conflicts. Thank god they nerfed flaks aswell.
With regards to T2, although the pak38 isnt as good as the AT57mm, they still make short work of shermans.... and you would build them if you werent rushing to spam pumas and stugs im sure.
Calliope.... if the tiger costs 1000MP then the calliope is fine at 600MP. Having no fuel costs is obviously a gameplay decision which works fine (gives player losing map control chance to comeback). The cooldown period for these off-map units should be increased, perhaps doubled, if anything.
As an allied player BAR suppression does need a change. An increase in munition costs, an increased cooldown period, a shorter effective timespan.... i dont know. But it takes too little thought to own the infantry battle with them. However, having two T1 buildings to build is a huge handicap in the early game so perhaps they know what they are doing. It seems early game the allies are offensive and mobile and the axis should be played more static and defensive, but i am just second guessin the devs i guess.
I guess I like all the changes, but was just suprised there were no buffs to axis inf like knights cross holders, or alternately a nerf to BAR suppression. It would be nice to see all armour costs and build times increased too.
I know that's why I said "hope".Originally Posted by bbos
It's pretty obvious that whatever accuracy penalty they are referring to with Rangers also is affecting other infantry based AT weapons. These changes are also still tenative so I'm trying to remain positive for now. I'm reserving my judgement (and complaints) until the actual patch hits.
I am gathering (and hoping, being a 100% committed Axis player) that the notes shown are not the full and complete release notes. I will reserve my judgement until the actual patch is released and I have a few games under my belt using it.
Hope is the first...eh, forget it.
Would have helped T4 a lot if they had buffed the Panzer IV. Panther is a monster of a tank but even with the buffs it's hard to rely on solely at 140 fuel a pop.
I hope they add a Crocodile cost reduction and Nebelwerfer/STUH buffs.
just wondering about the tools that are coming out with the patch.. i know that it was discussed in another thread but wasnt answerd. (at least i dont think it was) are the tools novice friendly or so complicated that the average gamer woulnt be able to build a map (using a tatuirial of course)?
Ps. thank u admins for a heads up on the patch much appricated
Thanks for the info Moe on the other thread. With a 10mb pipe in work, downloading will be no problem.
#121
DarkSide420, my understanding is that most of the work they had to do on the mod tools was making documentation for them. They obviously already worked - Relic used them to make the game - but they presumably weren't very user friendly.
Modding and mapping won't be simple, but it should be attainable. I imagine similar difficulty to the Dawn of War map and mod tools.
I'm getting the feeling they're buffing the accuracy for Bazookas exclusivly.
I think the reasoning behind the Ranger buff (Detection range and Bazooka accuracy) is that they're suppose to be the elite mobile unit in Allied Infantry company, much like Pershing for Armored company, Tiger assault group for Blitzkrieg, and Tiger Ace for Terror.
And lets face it, Axis won't encounter any Bazookas unless the Allie chose Infantry company. While Axis would always have options of equiping their troops with Panzerschreck regardless of the doctrine. That's probably a good reason in Relic's point of view to leave Panzerschreck as it is.
That being said, I think they outa buff Panzerschreck's accuracy as well.
:comment:
Just tried playing a game with Tier1,2,4. Skipping Tier3.
All I have to say is that the quad .50cal halftracks becomes extremely hard to kill without the Tier3 units. Panzerschrecks just don't kill them fast enough before all 4 barrels go blazing on your men. PAK 38s are just too expensive for what they do and gets flanked easily. And just about all the Tier2 units can be pinned by BAR.
Of course I did this assuming after the patch it would be more costly to maintain a Puma/StuG army. Thus making it inpractical to build both Tier3 and 4.
Hopefully the changes they made for Panther would really make enough difference.
Last edited by danshyu; 2nd Nov 06 at 5:20 PM.
Wow danshyu thats a great point about the rangers/shreks debate. It makes sense whats the devs thinking now.
a frigtening thought has occured to me, will the map maker be idiot-proof
i mean this sincerly, will it be on the level of say Empire Earth or Empire's Dawn Of The Modern World
or will it be something hopelessly confusing like Oblivion's TES construction kit?
I ask on behalf of the other 99% of people, the ones that know nothing, or very close to nothing about coding and modding.
let's get a specific example and a specific answer from relic, just so we can have some idea of if we'll actually be able to use this, or wait for a modder to use it and give us maps that may or may not be what we really want.
ok lets say i want to make a little hill, just a hill, a nice little pile of dirt of a hill, will i be able to say pick a button that says make hill/raise terrain/something similer and either click on the map, hold on the map (to increase size) or input a numeric value.
OR
will i have to go threw a bunch of mapping crap, like puting invisible points on a big mesh-like surface and fiddeling with a few hundered fields of data? I really want to be able to use this map maker, PLEASE! pretty-please, pleasy-weezy
don't delete this critical post
and if anyone has answered this in another location link away!
#125
danthemuffinman, how about we just wait a day or two and try it out ourselves instead of insisting upon a Relic staffer post?
thnx for the info ... i gotta say that was really quick getting back to me about my QA thnx much appreciated keep up the good work
#127
Try out the existing map tools for DoW, and you will get a good impression what could come for CoH. The DoW map tools are pretty userfriendly once you get into them, but lack of documentation made them beginner unfriendly. Now for CoH, Relic delivers documentation, and if it is good and easy to understand the tools will become verry beginnerfriendly.
The one odd thing to me is that the Axis are doing worse on the boards than the Allies and yet they are the ones to have received the nerfs. This accually sounds like balances based on beta feedback and not what is currently happening.
i hope all infantry becomes stronger after this patch, not just the rangers.
and that the changes to the CP of the 88s is not just for fun because they are quite ueseless. unless the howitzer cant shoot blindly into its range without spotting.
Yea but Flaks have huge ranges and shoot into the Fog of War aswell so :P.
Not to mention they eat infantry and armored vehicles alive when it comes down to head on confrontations.
Oh and a well placed Flak will shoot down a ton of airplanes.
Hows the Flak sucky exactly?
(Yes theres a downside to this all, costs & easy destroyability, but still.)
After reading about the changes - I am excited and look forward to the patch.
I have not played many games where the developers have been so cooperative in letting us know the progress of the patch, and so patient in dealing with those who continuously create trouble amidst all of their efforts to be courteous to the community. Well done Relic.
Cannot change everything to fit everyone, but I think this will be a great improvement overall and that the majority of us will be very pleased. (Especially with the mod tools)
A new map is a significant bonus, looking forward to it!
Keep up the good work!
Although the final patch is not out, it seems that this would be the mainstay of the patch. With that consideration, I'm confused as to the lack of change on several issues. It would be great if with the final patch the developers could explain the reasoning for changing or not changing several issues. However, that's likely too much to hope for.
Anyway, areas I'm confused about:
- no major change to trees, especially allied armor and axis terror, despite their overwhelming preference
- no change to the panzer IV, despite it being significantly inferior to other options
- no change to the nebelwerfer
- no change to the crocodile, especially in cost
- no change to sherman smoke
Also, the point on stug/puma balance seems pretty ambiguous. I really hope it addresses the axis skip tier 2 and ignore tier 4 tendency.
Hand out bannings to the trolls and you'll see day by day there is less and less spam, flaming, and garbage going on.About 20% of the posts in that thread had to be deleted. That's not "a few". We can't baby-sit hundreds of threads per day because people are incapable of following rather simple rules.
Anyway, I'm pretty excited about the patch. It's disgusting to see so many people bash Relic and complain about so many things, especially when they're working their asses off trying to make this great game even better.
Especially since they don't even know what's in the patch yet.
I agree. Ban the trolls. Ban those who cannot follow simple instructions.About 20% of the posts in that thread had to be deleted. That's not "a few". We can't baby-sit hundreds of threads per day because people are incapable of following rather simple rules.
I don't want to flame but the relic balance have no idea what they are doing,
why is the axis defensive doctrine made worse? 88 need to be more acceptable for their costs!
BTW. where's the Calliope Nerf?
Those are not all the changes. Look up tentative.I don't want to flame but the relic balance have no idea what they are doing,
why is the axis defensive doctrine made worse? 88 need to be more acceptable for their costs!
BTW. where's the Calliope Nerf?
And the 88 does not cost any more than it did. While the individual 88 ability costs more, Fortify the Perimeter is cheaper, so it balances out. The total cost to get 88s is the same.
the main issue i see with the nerf to the 88, is that it was a viable option (altho somewhat debatable in its usefulness) as a counter to the sherman/calliope spam to the allied armour company, now with it taking even longer to get one, longer wait for CP's, along with longish build time, along with t2 axis units still being rather pointless, itll make the early AT options for Axis that much harder.
but ill hold my final opinion til we see the actual patch. maybe it will force the axis player to use all tiers and build a true combined arms approach? which is good except that it looks like the allies will still be able to simply rely on the sherman and calliope for everything.....
sigh. I have to say it again apparently.
Fortify the Perimeter was made cheaper. The 88 will take the exact same amount of command points to get, becaues you'll have one extra due to Fortify the Perimeter being cheaper.
If you expect everything that is bugged to be fixed you are being unrealisitc.
If you expected balance changes that didn't occur then either
1) you do not have enough appreciation for which units are imbalanced or
2) you are bias (I bet you play the side that you feel is most nerfed. Coincidence? I don't think so) or
3) see the first sentence of this post
I hate how often players feel they are superior to the game makers, it's reminds me of pathetic ego-centric 8 year olds. Sure, they sometimes are, but not this often.
P.S. I love how the one (some say only) Axis strategy has been nerfed. Should make for much more interesting games, especially now that the panther might come more into play.
Yeah overall I like the changes. The Panther sounds interesting...but I think they need to make the PIV a little cheaper or more accurate...and 10 sec build delay on the stug is not much of a nerf to those who say it is, and they needed to make the puma's less spamable so that's good. They should suppport troops not outright replace them.
Sounds good on the defensive doc. It will make the bunkers even more useful as the axis. Hopefully along with the bazookas panzershreks are made a bit more accurate or more powerful.
Looks like the sherman may final get the reduction it needs in infantry killing power.
Still what about the smoke bug (I am assuming)?
I still think the panzershreks need to be reduced in price and LMG's possibly to 50 a piece. Its too expensive on munitions. I wonder if the modification to the Pak 38 will make it stronger?
Overall it sounds like it will diversify the axis strategies. You'll see more 1-2-4. instead of 1-3.
I am confused about the engineers is that a decrease or increase with the instant kill ability?
As for the allies...What about calliope spam? To me there's a simple solution make it one more point and the pershing one less. Also the munition cost should be increased, 150-175). That would give the axis the time it needs.
As for rifle spam... and BAR difficulties. Simple solution make the BAR less powerful... Either by making it only supressible (still would be powerful)...or more likely have it so you must click on the unit you wish to pin. And each unit pinned would cost x amount of munitions. you could still pin enemy troops, but not easily and not without cost.
Lastly and perhaps most importantly...what about nebels, officers and KCH. Nebels simply need to be made a bit more powerful. Officers...I have no idea.
KCH wil be more likely used if at level four and especially with the nerf to the ostwind. But still perhaps making them unable to be suppressed? Reduce cost? Give them AT upgrade?
Overall I like but it still either hasn't commented or hasn't addressed some of the issues...eg BAR, calliopes, nebels, officers.
#141
Why do people think they nerfed the 88? I dont see that anywhere in the patchnotes. They increased its cost by 1 CP and decreased the cost of fortify the perimiter by 1 CP, that translates to the same total cp cost for the 88. Personally I think it's a great unit and all those people who think it's useless are dead wrong.
No profanity filter.
Ok, now playing Axis is even more a F**king REAL challenge.
Allied customers need puchingballs.... here is one.
I will keep playing axis.
It sounded to me like the defensive tree changes meant Fortify the Perimeter was getting reduced to 1 CP while 88's increased to 3. The net change would be a very minor buff to Fortify the Perimeter (get it sooner) while 88's remain unchanged. While it's a step in the right direction, Fortify the Perimeter needs more than a CP reduction to matter. The MG's on your buildings are beyond worthless. Who attacks your base with riflemen and jeeps? The bunker reinforce might become slightly more useful if axis tier 2 sees some use, but I'd rather pay 2 CP's for it and have it do more.
I would suggest making the in-base MG's stronger and give them AP ammo like the allied MG. This would allow them to fight off quad's and AC's, while at least posing some threat to tanks.
Most people need to read up the definition of tentative.
Despite what you may think, tentative does NOT mean "This is the list of changes we've made so far and we're soon going to be releasing the patch"
What it means is that the current list is still undergoing testing and experimenting. They are in no way final and are very much subject to change.
Nothing about the 88 being killed in one-shot by an 57mm... I hope thats part of the tentative bit
How tentative can they be when they are only a day or two away from releasing the patch? I would think that the only changes that are being made are to get the patch actually working!
Defensive doctrine seems like it would be alright now, advanced warning, fortify the perimiter and the registered artillery are all pretty good but with the reduced CP costs you can now get them in time to actually be useful...
Wow, if this is the final log, then this game is done for competitive 1on1. Panthers, while good tanks, are never used because they far too expensive. The game will be over by the time you get to tier4 and make a single Panther tank.
Axis had one saving grace against BAR/Calliope spam and that was that Stugs and Pumas came out earlier than Shermans and maybe Calliopes (depending on how the game played). BAR is overpowered to the point where it's stupid to buy infantry. Calliope means you don't have to fight for fuel like your game depended on it. Most top players would agree that in 1.2, Allies were imbalanced. It wasn't game breaking, most of the time, but Axis had to work harder to get wins.
Now, Axis still has no viable Tier2 and Tier4 is too far expensive to be realistically used. In terms of fuel, for the very first Panther you make, the Allies will be able to make 3 upgunned Shermans. So basically, this game might just be an absolute joke now with these proposed changes.
There is a very good reason why forums were setup with the ability to create threads on seperate topics, it's because nobody wanted to read through a giant thread in which 50% of the stuff or more has no meaning to the discussion they want to have. There were at least 10 topics in those patch changes that could be addressed in seperate topics, throwing them all together makes it much harder for the user to follow.
Just my 2 cents.
BTW, they only put "tentitive" in there to avoid any accusations if they change anything, but it seems to me that it would be a very low chance that any of the balance stuff would be changed, as that is the part least likley to cause issues and need changing (technically speaking, bug fixes could cause more bugs. Changing values for balance purposes is much less likely to create bugs than code changes are).
- Bridger
Host of Tales of Heroes
I don't quite "get" Relic's "balancing". They do not balance. They fix things that don't need "fixing", nerf the crap out things that need mere tweaking, and totally feth things up so there's need for a whole new patch. Is this some sort of grand buisness scam? Look at DoW... it went on for MONTHS about each patch would 'fix it all' but do nothing but create more problems.
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