[DC 1.11]Chaos Issues

[Hirmetrium]

EDIT 11th FEBUARY:Look, the edit list is gone! Fixed it further, changed many sections.

Well i dont need to give much background. I'm a good chaos player. nothing more, nothing less. I posted this on game replays, but I though I'd get the flak it needs here.
Only the units with issues will be posted here. everything else i eitheir balanced out by other races units, proper counters.

Cultists:
Reason: Because of DC these guys have lost all scalability. whats more, the current subject of their reinforce/HW buildtime IN COMBAT are too high. Currently out of combat their HW buildtime is fine, and their reinforce is possibly a bit fast. Their the only unit in the game with an incombat reinforce modifier from what i can see.
Solution: GL can't fire on the move, combat build time modifier removed, reinforce time standardised to same as other tier 1 units. FIX PTW GFX BUG. Scaling of AC returned. Cultists do not detect, instead the cultist AC does.
Evidence: The cultist reinforcement slow down mechanic isnt used for any other unit, so why are they suffering to the point where their reinforce is longer than TERMINATORS?(see slow_runners WA oddities thread). Their useless outside tier 1.

CSM:
Reason: People aren't happy with the 'backbone' of the chaos army. their heavy weapons deal far more damage than others, they have infiltration.
Solution: Plasma and Heavy bolter damage reduced to all units by 25%. Infiltration is maintained.
Evidence: Almost everything about CSM is hated. right to the core. infiltration, heavy weapons, everything.
Additional:HW research moved to tier 2, as well as HB, flamers are restored so that Armoury in tier 1 gives heavy weapons.
Alternative:CSM infiltration is removed entirely.


Bezerkers:
Reason: This change slows their fast tech, but also means chaos doesnt have to build a pit for bezerkers.
Solution: Now require a sacrificial pit OR a machine pit, increase in HP by 20 each.
Evidence: Currently bezerkers are out too fast for most races(mainly necrons) to handle.

Horrors:
Reason: A big DC concern, while they fill the roll, they do such a poor job...they cant reinforce, dont scale AT ALL, and can't even decap points.
Solution: Give them the ability to reinforce. Start squad size 3/5. Current survivability is TERRIBLE. squad investment is worth almost nothing.
Additional: Allow daemonic fire in tier 3 to improve their HP and/or damge.
Evidence: almost every other tank killing unit is lasting far far longer and doing a better job. Tank's themselves beat horrors, since they cant reinforce. The main advantage of AV troops over vehicles(ie the ability to reinforce) isnt there for horrors. Tank bustas have equal cost and better combat skills AS WELL as reinforce.

Chaos Sorcerer:
Reason: Chains is too powerful.
Solution: Increase cooldown on chains, so it can't be used as often. Duration increased by 2-3 seconds. All spells on global cooldown.

Chaos Vehicles:
Reason: Basically, this is here because without any doubt - chaos vehicles are still the worst in the game. until a rhino gets a heavy bolter on top, that is.

-*_*-*_*-*_*-Predators:-*_*-*_*-*_*-
BIGGEST ISSUE - MUST BE FIXED NEXT PATCH IN SOME WAY. Reason: They cost too much cap and power. They also scale extremely poorly after daemonic projectiles. their tier 2 tanks balanced to tier 4, which doesnt work AT ALL. Chaos have two vehicle options other than this unit, the only other combat unit being the defiler - which needs other vehicular support(ie the predator).
Solution: Reduce support cap to 4. Tier 2 damage recieves further buffs.
Evidence: Overpriced. currently it needs support cap research for each(expensive!). Only alternative is defilier. Predators are EXTREMELY important for chaos. they are currently not performing at subpar levels at tier 2 for price and tier 4 for durability.

Defiler:
Reason: Well....he needs no introduction. possibly the most evil looking machine of death ever. and to be honest, he isnt all hes cracked up to be. His ranged damage is pathetic and he loses out to other walkers in melee.
Solution: Improve Autocannon range and damage. Increase Battlecannons disruption. Increase HP by 300, cost to 150/280
Evidence: Do people attually use these after the expensive machine pit?

Tier 3:
Possessed Space Marines:
Reason: Currently their research takes a long time, at the same building, and delays PSM a lot.
Solution:Reduce Daemonic mutation research time.
Evidence: Not effective when first built.

Daemon Prince:
Reason: Currently a downgrade. needs a big review. He doesnt have enough HP, daemonic roar isnt effective when units have so much morale and regroup so soon.
Solution: He should be given an additional 3000 HP. He should detect or keep the auspex skill and also have the symbol of chaos(even though he is unaffected by it). Cost now 250/250.
Evidence: As a unit he sucks. players build him when their losing of have a huge winning advantage, or nothing else to spend income on.

Bloodthirster:
Reason: This guy is the worst uber unit. No ranged attack, high cost(higher than that of the avatar), no bonuses provided by him.
Solution: Remove Degeneration. Wow, really hard!
Additional: Possible damage boost of around 10/15%.
Evidence: The only unit to die on his own when your not doing anything. This will mean he has doesn't have to be used immediately, or can defend your base while your army attacks etc, especially in the case against a necron lord with res orb.

Chaos Buildings:
EDIT 14th November: This section has been revamped YET AGAIN. This is to prevent changes to chaos tier 1, which are not required.

Chaos Armoury:
Evidence: The chaos armoury is now a 'minor' structure. its cost serves no purpose besides to delay teching(which is highly important in DC). The costs outweight the benefits currently.
Solution: Chaos armoury cost is changed. eitheir both SM and chaos armoury become the same price, or chaos one is reduced to 175/50.

The Sacrificial circle, in its more important role of production of AV and bezerkers, should cost more. I think increasing its cost to 150/50 would be reasonable.

Conclusion
This thread is for opinions on the changes i've suggested. I've already asked some of my friends for opinions, and their generally supportive of these. I've been told that the pred changes be paid particularly large attention. anything I particularly like I'll edit in, and if you argue anything else I'll be sure to add that into the list too.

NEW! The 10 second quick fix list:
1. Nerf plasma and heavy bolters damage OR remove infiltration.
2. Improve DP with above downgrade removal suggestions and cost change.
3. Perform the above vehicle changes.
4. Horrors reinforce.
5. bezerkers are pushed back to an 'or' requirement on sac circle/machine pit.
6. Fix Cultist Scaling and buildtime penlty.
Why is this here? because not everything in the thread can be done. if it is, it will take a LONG time for the patch to come out. as such, this is a quick way to fix many of the issues haunting chaos and other players.

[W0lf]

pretty decent list, nothing i disagree with or consider to be imba.

A job well done Hirm.

[Hirmetrium]

thanks

I've been sitting on this for a while, and wanted to see how DC affected chaos before i posted. unfortunately the effect was something not very pleasant to see.

Right now i see IG got a massive buff, orks got massive tech tree buffs for even smoother teching. Eldar as lazerflip has proven are great, and the restoration of plasma grenades is awesome. SM have had powers unlocked they never had before, and an armoury/rax build in tier 1 is cheap enough to be worth it on your tacs later on. Sniper scout techs are especially good. Necrons and tau are both balanced to DC style play, and have their own issues matching the current races.

[Bloodloss]

Very nice, well thought out post. I agree 100%.

[Durandal]

i'll sound like a deja vu' but i also agree 100% with this whole post. MOSTLY the need for a tougher chaos predator , reinforceable horrors with a slight damage boost , PTW and armory researches affecting the cultist and the whole cultist point itself.

ps: how did you find the Obliterators to be ? good / bad ? good and balanced or good due to an imbalance or vice versa ?

[GRIM Ripper]

i dont necessarily agree with everything... mainly T4, tech speed and building costs. chaos T4 costs the most bc it SCALES already existing units -- this is very major. also projectile preds do the most damage of any T4 tank... so its only natural they have the lowest HPs.

also, the bloodthrirster is actually not too shab. he can kill generators in like 2-3 hits (literally) and generally lay waste to buildings (was he buffed? bc i took out a whole necron base with him before he could be killed by even mass amt of warriors and other units). 14k of HPs makes him almost 50% more durable then any other super unit (apart from an avatar). granted hes no baneblade (which i think is OPed btw) in terms of killing power, but he still gets the job done. if he is underpowered compared to other super units, its only by a small amt in my opinion.

as far as tech speed goes, i dont see how theyre any slower then any other race. they can go T2 without putting down a generator for one... that is actually a pretty big avantage. btw SM T2 costs 250/150, not 250/100. and dont forget other races T2 such as eldars costing 250/200 for ex, or orks 660/0, or taus 200/200... chaos does not spend the most by any means... it is on par with everyone elses at the least.

and one last bit about CSM... i dont know why everyone thinks they deserved to scale into T3... very few units scale into T3 as it is, and chaos is not one of the races who needed that with good, massable T2 zerks and good T3 units. SM dont scale into T3, eldar and orks only (barely in orks chaos) scale into T3 bc their T2 units double as their T3 units instead of getting totally new ones. guardsmen dont scale into T3, etc. plasma can stay as it is, it just needs a huge cost increase (50/15 or 40/25 for ex).

[Hirmetrium]

their perfect thats why i suggest the daemon pit cost more, especially with the DP changes :P it means theres a lot of good stuff waiting at the end of that cost, but i worry if its excessive. its probably better set at 200/100.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Why does plasma need a nerf? You don't make this clear. Do you think it's too powerful, or just too easy to get?

[{x}Proudfoot]

Try using Grenade Launchers on your Cultists and cloaking them. They aren't a general combat unit, they are a scout/capping unit with limited heavy weapon usage, so why are you trying to make them a part of your army if you aren't playing to their strengths (cloak + grenade disruption, typically).

Horrors could maybe do a little bit more damage, but when you consider the fact that they can be Deep Striked, and that they aren't very expensive, I think they are fine, and I use them quite often to decent effect.

I'm fine with Predators as they are. They do some pretty solid damage, especially with a squad or two of Berserkers tanking for them. No huge comments on this one, though.

As for the Bloodthirster and the Daemon Prince, I pretty much agree, but keep in mind that the Bloodthirster can fly around, which may account for him having less damage (use him wisely, don't just throw him into the fray). Both units should be supported by a decent army, as well. Also, the Bloodthirster costs way more than the Daemon Prince, because you have to spend 500/500 to upgrade to Tier 4 to get him.

[tygereye]

Very nice post.

One thing : nothing about the defiler? As far as I know their stats haven't changed since 1.51 so I think it's still a not that good walker.

About horrors I would say that it's the FOTM penalty that really crippled them : changing them from full accuracy on the move to 10% is a HUGE nerf. So I think that the horror problem comes more from a too huge FOTM nerf IMHO. But if FOTM would stay as it is now (which I hope it won't) I totally agree with your changes.

About non upgraded preds I already said before DC that their DPS against heavy infantry aren't impressive at all (their HB is better against light vehicules than against infantry heavy_med !!). Considering that they will face it most of the time (except against guards and maybe orks slugga spam in T3). I agree with the FOTM problem though.

Everything else I totally agree with you and I wish there would be more posts like that with a lot constructive proposal rather than OMG wtf X race is Imba !

[Hirmetrium]

Why does plasma need a nerf? You don't make this clear. Do you think it's too powerful, or just too easy to get?

its ridiculously powerful in case you hadnt guessed.

horrors are expensive. you pay enlump for a squad that performs the role until its spotted. being able to DS isnt that impressive.

I dont understand how you accept predators to be ok when you need 5cap of vehicle and 150/330 for a unit which is outperformed easily. heck even devilfish are better than them since they can deal damage while invisible.

The time it takes to build up cultists heavy weapons is SILLY. it must take at least x3 than compared to other units, and longer than a terminator in combat. whats more its 2 cap you cant afford in DC, because you need every soldier you can muster.

One thing : nothing about the defiler? As far as I know their stats haven't changed since 1.51 so I think it's still a not that good walker.

the defiler has gained more HP that it sorely needed, so im pretty happy with those guys

[ImmortalChaos]

Defiler got a huge HP boost, it's great now.

(EDIT: Oh poo, too slow)

[Jaimas]

A problem I have with Chaos is that the Bloodthirster is relatively easy to take down with some preparation, whereas the Necron Nightbringer ability is invincible whilst it butchers someone's forces.

LAME.

[nemesis09]

Yah...but you all are forgetting chaos still has a major imbalance in its favour- khorne bezerkers. Many chaos players out there immediately fast tech to zerks, forgoing any other rax units. Although fast tech should be viable, its way to powerful in the case of zerks..all they need is barracks, 1 power plant and then tech....and races like necrons have a serious problem against them. What they need is zerk's speed and attack to be nerfed, and furious charge from the armory would restore them to original strength...

perhaps raptor get buff from their jump packs research ( I've never seen a single person research them before) to give them 2 jumps. This would make them more viable as anti dancing/anti range unit in tier 2. ( Which they don't scale that well into )

Another thing is the chao sorceror's corruption ability. Its crap compared to the tier 3 abilitiess of other races, like WoTE and the ion strike thingy. It is also needed to counter the ranged mass of marines tau and eldar late game, something chaos has a problem against.

Finally, obilberators need a buff against vehicles. Their lascannon damage against vehicles is atrocious for a dedicated ranged AE unit, of which you can only build one. This is also need to add more diversity to chaos AV units.

Other than that, I fully agree with your list...Hopefully it gets approved, though chaos arguably needs a slight downgrading in tier 0 contrary to what you mentioned, for it here that chaos is most powerful and competitive and it needs a slight nerf to compensate for the buffs it gets later.

[Hirmetrium]

could you please point out how chaos tier 0 is better than other races tier 0? :P

Bezerkers i feel occupy a sweetspot in the techtree, like GK's do. IF they need a nerf, they need a buff. in fact bezerkers are fine - any change to them could unbalance chaos tier 2 again, and we all know how bad that would be. Races like necrons have a necron lord who can slow them down with artifacts, and free warriors and LP2's wailing doom. in fact if you are fast teching your leaving yourself open to everything tier 1 has. remember that mass DOES pwn tech in this game - and if an SM player was to mass tacs, it would be worth it by the time tier 2 comes around. if a necron lord teleported to your teching base, it would be GG right there.

like I said, a lot of chaos is now all about bezerkers. when it comes down to it, you want to be going into tier 3 with lots of bezerkers supported by CSM.

Raptors i like as they are. Their fairly well balanced with 1 jump, pretty costly, and fit wonderfully into chaos BO's.

Corruption isnt worth much mentioning, but yes it does need a major major major damage buff. 25/sec would make it worth it.

Oblits do not need a buff. while their AV damage isnt amazing, its nothing to sniff at. plus they already split most other targets - so vehicles counter them better than infantry. Plus they can DS, have teleporters, and are relatively fast and cheap to build/reinforce, so you can always get hold of them @ tier 3.

[Nobunaga]

I'm no chaose player but most of your points seem to be reasonable. However I don't understand why CSM got massively buffed HWs and kept infiltration. An entire infiltrated army is a joke. Every other unit with infiltrate is a support unit. CSM could use some fairly heavy nerfing IMO.

I've never noticed Chaos tech being particularly slow either. You know why your buildings are more expensive, it's because of FL.

Lastly I think Zerks are a tad OP. They need slightly (note slightly) less HP or Higher costs or slower reinforce times. Currently they're incredibly hard to kill when overwatched.

[Centurion]

I agree with most of the points. I don't understand why the BT is still such a poor unit, and the DP is even worse(though I do actually build it when I'm winning, because it's such a cool unit). I can live with the sacrifice element and health loss of the BT, if only it was the supremely most powerfull CC unit in the game.

I think that at the moment Chaos AV is pretty bad. I rarely build horrors now, and oblits really don't work against a lot of vehicles. CSM plasma is my one of my main AV right now. Horrors definately need changes, and I'd be all for reinforcement and better accuracy/damage.
Personally I'd also like oblits to work better against vehicles, but it wouldn't be that important if Horrors were buffed in some way.

I'm also thinking about the upgrades for PSM. I think that they may be a tad too expensive when it's only for a single unit, and PSM really need those upgrades to be effective.

And I'd really like to see corruption buffed, and also get the damage penalty removed from that CL/DP berzerk ability that I can't really remember the name of.

[nichtganz]

Chaos Tier 1

Cultists: they are by far the worst scouting units in the game. They reinforce slow, have no health and now no longer benefit from PTW. In otherwords worthless shit. In need of a buff.

Tier 2

Horror AV damage: As mentioned before by far the worst AV squad in the game. Still in need of a massive buff, since what WA 1.41 now. You really need to be doing drugs not to be noticing this. Chaos since WA has always had a problem with AV, however wacktards say no no its alright. This needs to be resolved more than anything else.

Tier 3:

Preds: They received a nice 25% Dmg buff. However they still have shit for armor and get pwnd by nearly everything id be thrilled by 1k buff in health (Comes with Chaos Projies).

Daemon Prince: A very very bad investment, In need of a mix of the following, cost reduction, hp buff, or ability permanntcy/ old abilites from CL.

thats my only problems.

[Spinefarm]

As they seem to be wanting to keep horrors un-reinforceable, a nice compromise in my eyes would be to somehow make them reinforceable when in sac pits. So that you'd need to run them back in if you want to reinforce. ATM it's rather sad that you need to delete lone horrors just so that you can have a full squad in return.

[Kratos]

Very good list, I like all your ideas!!!
/signed!

[mits]

Agree with the cultists issue. I dont understand why they chose to remove powerful ACs from them. Every other tier 0 unit has upgrades that make them much more effective, ie scouts with sniper/plasma, stealth teams become great AV, guardians with warlocks fill many roles and free sluggas. Cultists without strong ACs just lose their punch, becoming plain spotter units for tier 1. This only limits the strategies available which cant be good for the game, i mean if they still had the WA champs i could see viable builds with tier 2 plasma gun cultists.

[Hirmetrium]

not to mention cultist AC's still need a chaos temple to be built O_o

CSM HW's are not 'amazingly buffed'. I believe their exactly the same as SM ones, but @ tier 1.5 rather than tier 2.

Also remember tacs scale better than CSM - they get more morale, more HP, more damage. CSM need heavy weapons and they need PTW. without those two things their REALLY bad...

CSM are currently some of the most crucial units, and they have some of the crappest scaling. if it wasnt for their infiltration skill, CSM would be a rock-paper hybrid against scisscors...

FL's cost is in the loss of that builder. without FL, most chaos buildings take far far far longer than any other races counterpart. Right now every other race's barracks is around 200, give or take 50.

My fear is also that some of these changes might affect bezerkers rather drastically...

I have another suggestion too. Its that bezerkers be made post machine pit/sac circle, but given an additional 100 HP each member.
I have no idea how this would impact balance however, but I am aware bezerkers are dangerously close to being imbalanced currently. I think the 3cap on them makes up for it however.

[ImmortalChaos]

Cultists scale bad, But I feel they are fine as is in T0. They absolutely BUTCHER stealthsuits because of their detection, they ARE cheaper than any other races scouts, so no crap they are going to be weaker. If you want to compare them to another scout, say, scouts, add one member to the squad... and wow! suddenly they are tougher than scouts!

[Hirmetrium]

I'm not saying that immortal. Im saying that right now chaos needs more scaling units and more options. cultists scaling so poorly isnt acceptable in a game where everything is about how well this unit scales against that unit.

[ImmortalChaos]

Ah, I was making that opinion out ffrom other posters not yours!

IMO, the only problems with chaos at T2 is cultist scaling and preds.

My suggested fixes:
Give cultists their (fully buffable) AC back, with increased cost, and less heavy weapons from the upgrade. Instead of 3-5 I think 2-4 would be appropreate.

Preds should go down in price to 150/300 and have a slight damage boost pre T4 and a fairly large HP boost (500-1000) post T4.

T3 is a different story, and all I can say about that one if buff the DP and make the PSM upgrades help horrors in their AV.

[Tadatsune]

Cultists yes, predators no.

Chaos projectiles give those things insane dps values. They need a weakness of some sort.

[MoschBoy]

ok, now after some time of playing DC and reading these posts... doesnt anyone of you actually think chaos is a bit....well, strong? granted, i ALWAYS had problems to kill chaos, but now... necron matchups ALWAYS end in a zerker rush/spam with tier 3 tech, ork matchups are the same as in DoW and WA same for SM and IG matchups.

[Deathscythe61]

Just gotta say Hirm, possibly the best balance post I have ever seen.

I agree across the board.

[Hirmetrium]

hmmm, im starting to wonder if I've overbuffed the chaos early game, so It might be worth shifting 30 req onto the Chaos lord to balance out the new temple cost. like i said, I over buffed them a bit

Its like I said, bezerkers and CSM plasma are the only cards chaos has. take those away, and chaos is just a load of shitty copies of every other races.

[Chris]

doesnt anyone of you actually think chaos is a bit....well, strong?

Berzerker tech and infiltration tech are 1 trick ponies.

I think CSM are in the same boat as SM as in if you take away the 1 trick ponies, you see just how poop the race is as a whole.

[Slow_Runner]

During WA all the way up to 1.5, I don't think there wasn't any doubt about horrors being one of the best AV in the game. If horrors took a hit with the fire on the move nerf, want to take a guess what it did to Fire Dragons for example? Tankbustas are extremely good AV, no argument there, Tacs with missile launchers, while they have good range and damage, are still rather expensive at 110/15 per tac for a mere 488 hitpoints.

I'll have to look at cultists and their ACs a little closer but the ACs don't get the extra hp or armor change at least with PtW. The cults still might get the additional 100 hp, even though the graphic might not be showing. I'll take a further look when I find the time.

[nemesis09]

Berzerker tech and infiltration tech are 1 trick ponies.

Which is precisely why we need to change zerks...Its like the LS spam of the marines. After buffing cultists as per thread suggestions..and perhaps giving raptors 2 jumps and maybe buffing them in some other way, now chaos has 4 different routes to take and can even mix units ( wow...chaos is actually capable of not spamming? ) Right now zerks are fast, durable, excellent against infantry and not bad against everything else, moral immune, and since chaos can tech to them quickly, only a complete retard would forgo them. They need a nerf in early tier 2 ( before armory, which players forgo if that go zerks ) and then a buff through furious charge.

[Kkharn]

Its like I said, bezerkers and CSM plasma are the only cards chaos has. take those away, and chaos is just a load of shitty copies of every other races.

I agree 100%

[Hirmetrium]

I've Overhauled the list, added bezerkers and improving a good deal of the post in general. Also revamped the building eco one.

[Boomstar]

I agree with all of it but only if a pre-projectile pred was nerfed down to 3500. And after projectile research got buffed to 4500. Maybe call the research daemonic possesion instead to represent the added hp. Maybe a small boost to defiler hp as well (after the tier 4 research that is). But yeah good list.

P.S As an aside I believe all vehicles need there FOM accuracy brought back to the way it was.

[Purple_jvs]

two thumbs purple thumbs up hirm.
not a thing i disagree with.
BAR Sac circle cost increase.

[Hirmetrium]

sorry purple, but take the good with the bad

P.S As an aside I believe all vehicles need there FOM accuracy brought back to the way it was.

I gotta agree with that, since currently the only powerful vehicles are walkers.

[Purple_jvs]

well the reason i suggested Sac circle for zerks in that other thread is because it adds time but not significant cost.
remember hirm balance is a fine line
it was zerkers build time not their cost that was IMBBAAAAaaaaaaaa

also how are you supposed to go fast horrors vs sp33der rush with a power heavy cost for a building you NEED to get AV

[Guardian X]

Does anyone know why the Obliterators were nerfed so they only use their lascannons and assault cannons? Since they're semi-hero units now, why aren't they bringing all their guns to bear on appropriate targets? Also, since they're supposed to be the equivalent of Space Marine terminators, shouldn't they be able to re-enter a building so they can deepstrike again (terminators can do this by entering the orbital relay)?

I agree; horrors either need to be reinforceable or else Chaos needs another anti-vehicle infantry option--badly.

You guys ought to read the about the problems with the defiler here as well:

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=120878

[Centurion]

Oblits use their plasma against heavy infantry. and they can still re-enter that pit thing to deepstrike again. I use them all the time now, though I think that they are a bit lacking against the bigger tanks.

and I too agree that Horrors could do with some work now. They just seem less effective and often too expensive.

[Nobunaga]

Well I don't understand why you guys are acting as if Chaos need buffs on the whole. Right now they seem to be the second best race and necrons are completely imba so they don't really count.

I agree that some of their stuff is dodgy (DP) but what Chaos need are basically equal buffs and nerfs to make their really good units a tad less amazing and their crappy ones better.

Maybe's its just me but CSM having infiltration seems totally nuts. Almost as idiotic as NW kind of nuts. I think that needs to be taken off completly for starters. Plasma is fairly powerful but it's small fry compared to Infiltration. I'm not talking about Infiltration tech btw just playing normally and getting infiltration tier 2. This means the other side needs detectors at all times. Due to fairly long range HBs and fairly short ranged detection this means even if you have detectors and they don't get ripped up instantly (many detectors are pretty fragile) they probably won't be able to see the whole army anyway. Of course that's just talking about in a battle when you know where the CSM are (and it's gonna hurt when you walk into a HB wall to find that out). A fully cloaked army gives chaos a massive strategic advantage for fun like "lol I'm in your base and you're not not. GG"

Anyway infiltrated CSMs are my main beef with Chaos atm.

[nemesis09]

Turrets dude...turrets. Unless you are tau, then...

[Nobunaga]

How would turrets help? Sure I'd know they were there but they'd get destroyed immediately meaning once my army got over I'd be unable to shoot them. Besides building turrets all over the place just in case Chaos are coming through is a huge waste of resources.

[Purple_jvs]

tbh i see DC 1.51 Chaos as a success story in balance
(when you look at the rest of the game)
it just needs fine tuning now

[Hirmetrium]

Well I don't understand why you guys are acting as if Chaos need buffs on the whole. Right now they seem to be the second best race and necrons are completely imba so they don't really count.

Read my post. If ANYTHING, chaos recieved a whole bunch of nerfs. otherwise, go and make your own thread on this.

I think chaos is well balanced, but EVERY other race just performs sooooo much better.

and purple, by the time these changes come into the game I expect land speeder rush to have been nerfed heavy :P

the sac pit now costs the same as the sorcerer. I COULD increase req cost and keep power cost @ 50 however. im currently not too sure.

nobunaga, i am not here to teach you how to use detectors. also I believe your gripe is not that CSM can infiltrate, its that they infiltrate with a powerful weapon, correct? well how about nerfing that weapon then? if so, READ THE FIRST POST AGAIN.

[Cthulu84]

I think if you reduce plasma it should go to T2.
Predator sucks, needs a buff, or keep and lower pop cap.
Why not give CSM melta guns? In TT melta guns are short ranged anti-vehicle/structure weapons, and would add some cool diversity to csm squads.
Zerks need to stay the same statwise, but maybe a slight increase in power cost.
Horrors give a T3 upgrade to turn into (or add) flamers of tzeentch another TT unit that could enhance the unit and give it scalability. Cultists are so damn bad and I have yet to figure out why the got nerfed? Someone must have typed Cultists when they meant Necrons in one of the billions of NECRON IMBA posts. I think the infil CSM is great, and adds a nice punch to T3 chaos. BT, hmm, he's a tough one, He's slow, does decent damage, absorbs bullets like crazy, and dies on his own. I think the no-fighting damage should be reduced massively or removed. And, in TT, greater daemons can summon units from themselves, maybe Bloodletters of khorne could be a cool future T3 addition.

[Nobunaga]

Hirm my problem with infiltrated CSM is completely separate from my issues with CSM plasma. (Plasma at least means you know where the units are even if you can't shoot them)

My problem is that all infiltrated units are support units with only 2 exceptions. That means that in most cases infiltrated units are fairly weak and they tend to harass or sneak around with a major army. Basically in other cases you'll be fighting their army you'll notice their cloaked units pulling some sneaky stuff, send some detectors and stop whatever they're doing. That tends to work out ok. This is partially because detectors tend to be infantry and of the support units don't kill infantry efficiently. In addition to being a fine unit CSM counter the units which is needed to beat them. It'd be like giving HB tacs immunity to artillery: they'd be able to hard counter the units supposedly intended to hard counter them.

What doesn't work ok is the whole army being cloaked. The major problem is that you can afford to have cloaked units doing their thing because it's only a support role: it's not generally GG just because my assassin sniped your Chaos Lord. With CSM however it is game breaking. Even if it only takes you 5 seconds to get your short ranged detector over to the CSM that's 5 seconds where your army is essentially stunned meaning you've lost the battle, at least if the Chaos player had any chance of winning. This would be all right if CSM weren't already a competetive unit, however they are. Constant infiltration is a completley unnecessary buff.

Btw in case you're wondering the other exception is the Necron Lord's Veil of Shadows. I don't mind that so much because it comes at tier 3, means the Lord loses out on another ability and doesn't work if the Lord dies or moves away.

Also why is it that CSM and Horrors need tier 3 scaling anyway? No SM units scale. Gms don't scale. I don't think tankbusters scale. So why exactly do Chaos need it? That said I agree horrors need a buff. I think they'd be fine if they just reinforced whilst in the sac pit though.

To clarify I'm not saying Chaos don't have individual unit problems. The team as a whole seems to be very competive (read: OP) at least in tier 2.

[KotCR]

I think you need to be very careful about any changes you make to anything Chaos have in T1, as it's a very delicate balance at the momment

Making several changes to units like Cultists, Aspiring Champions, and the cost of Chaos buildings could bring about the days of Chaos' T1 dominance again (insta-Raptor rape/Grenade Launchers/Plasma Pistols/Power Swords/CL general ownage, anyone?).

If you want to make Chaos' Armoury and Barracks cost the same as their Space Marine equivalents, fine, go ahead. But only if you also make Raptors require an Armoury to build, and increase the cost of Chaos LP's to - yup, you guessed it - the same price as Space Marine ones.

Of course this would be rather boring as then the techtree for Chaos and SM in T1 would once again be far too similiar. Sometimes, differences are good.

I do strongly believe however that Cultist Champ's should get their armoury weapons back.
Alternatively, failing that Champ's be removed from Cultist squads entirely (at least until T2, to let them benefit from PtW), the amount of GLs allowed on a Cultist squad reduced, and Cultists brought down to a cap cost of 1. Reinforcement speed buffs would then also be fair game, to single them out as definite cannon-fodder style units.

Finally, saying Chaos T1 is any less competitive than SM T1 or IG T1 is a bit of a joke, if you ask me. Particularly when you look at how all three are up against the likes of the Necrons and Tau now, who are undisputedly easily the two most powerful races in the game at the momment (which, in all fairness, is to be expected as they are new, while the other races have been fine tweaked over a great number of balance patches since the inception of DoW, with the exception of IG, who have been patched since the atrocity of balance that was WA1.4, who are now also shaping up nicely).

[Hirmetrium]

Ok, first post is fixed and the crap is gone. much clearly, easier to read, and shouldn't be as overpowering as the last version. comments plz!

[Energizer Bunny]

Agree re: Zerks

Not sure re: Horrors. DS'ability for AV in T2 is absolutely huge. Could live with them being reinforceable or having a small damage buff, but not both. Consider any difference between their power and that of other races av as a fair tradeoff considering they can be dropped in and do it straight off (where others have to walk there)