[DC 1.11]Chaos Issues

[tygereye]

An regards to cc its the shooter termie that should get good cc not oblits as in the text for terms at the bottom is this nice little line
"effective at most unit types in close combat...."
this would of course tie into there power fists which are clearly visable, the role as invisaged for shoota terms is excellent anti infantry ranged, combined with reasonable infantry cc powers, while that for obliterators is excellent ranged against all targets, if you go by the text descritions which were there from original dow, this is what there about.

Except that if you look at their weapon list you will see that the CC weapon used by oblits is a PF too. And they are stronger than Termies that's why their CC DPS is a bit higher (but still pathetic).

GK prove that a unit with good CC and descent ranged dmgs aren't OP (if we except the over the top daemon dmgs). So I would like to make oblits reversed GK with better ranged than CC, higher life but no psychic power. And normal termies too.

I am not for giving oblits daemon armor as it would mean that oblits would have a lesser armor than termies which isn't right cause oblits are meant to be less but tougher than termies. And right now they just have +100 HP. A bit more costy oblits with moral back is all they need to compensate for the buffed CC and lascannon.

About GL cultists vs guardmen GL there is more to consider :

- Guardmen GL outrange cultists GL so if you use a spotting unit you can easily destroy a cultitst force with few losses cause of the low HP and reinforcement time of cultists.

- Guardmen GL are more damaging than cultists GL but they are also a bit more costy and cultists can get more GL by squad with HW upgrade.

- Also the cultist GL rush is an all or nothing rush cause it slows a lot the chaos tech cause no matter what, you will need a temple in T2 if you want to make any other infantry than cultists that really don't scale as well as guardmen (and you also need a temple to make AC in cultists squads). And armory+temple is a lot more costy for chaos than tactica+bunker for IG. And it also relies on a very low life platform so it's a very risky (but rewarding if you outplay your openent) move.

So if you want to nerf cultists GL go for it but just a bit. No FoM and maybe a minimum range (but lower than GL guardmen cause of lower max range) and that's all (setup time is overkill). Or you'll make it a never used weapon cause of plasma gun.

[Chris]

GK prove that a unit with good CC and descent ranged dmgs aren't OP (if we except the over the top daemon dmgs).

Is "Space marine storm bolter.rgd" the entry for the GK ranged attack? If so I could easily see them being overpowered if they get any kind of decent accuracy on the move.

[psychodil]

Only problem with cultist GL's IMO is the FOTM value. I think its still at 100% while nearly all other values are at 10% or something similarly low (necron excluded). A reasonable FOTM penalty would be ideal IMO. Apart from that they are OK. A good weapon on a weak platform, good points and bad points. IG without grenades themselves will struggle because of lack of jump troops, which is more of an IG issue.

[Old Painless]

Space marine storm bolter.rgd

Thats the one.

[SubakuGaara]

hey tygreeye. Cultist rush doesn't slow chaos down at all. The reinforce quickly and are uber cheap. Even better is, you can build up power to get some heavy armor in while he's locking in on infantry killers. I've found that its the incorporation of those 1 or 2 CSM's that really bogs you down.

What do you guys think about my suggestion to make the horrors a temporary unit that is summoned by the chaos sorcerer, kinda like the bodyguards of the ethereal? Did you even read my post?

[tygereye]

Is "Space marine storm bolter.rgd" the entry for the GK ranged attack? If so I could easily see them being overpowered if they get any kind of decent accuracy on the move.

The way that I see oblits right now is : hard capped to 1 squad with only 5 members. That seems like MANZ (1 squad of 4 members) and GK (1 squad of 6 members). They both are CC units with some kind of ranged capicity. That's how I would like oblits to be except that they would be a ranged unit with CC capacities.

Maybe that making them twice less effective at CC and at ranged AV than what they are now at ranged AI would be enough. But well that would depend of their cost increase of course.

Edit : well subaku you may be right : perhaps that a cultist GL rush followed by a vehicule tech is good. I neither tried it. Mainly because I learned to not rely too much on the not that great chaos vehicules. I will give it a try though.

[SubakuGaara]

Trust me one predator and one defiler can really mess up an army designed to kill infantry. Players usually are like "oh crap!" and then try to run away, but I've seen their army and know they don't have stuff at their base. Why do people run away to their base anyway? As if they have incredibly troop numbers sitting there just waiting to ambush my overagressive army? If they did have troops they'd be out in the middle fighting my army right now! They're not fooling anyone...

Anyway, what do you guys think about my idea for the summoned horrors? make em free, let the sorcerer summon them and make em temporary? I outlayed the idea in my previous post and it resolves the problem of horrors being a too expensive tier 2 vehicle solution and the chaos sorcerer being a mediocre infantry killer when chaos is already stacked with them at tier 2. If horrors are free and are summoned for short temporary bursts, I think it adds a lot of balance. Read the post!

[Fannin]

Um, Subaku, you do realize that the chase buys you time and preserves my army?

If you want to do well in this game, you have to run from fights you can't win.

[Altor]

Subaku, while the Summoned Horrors is a very fresh and cool idea, it is such a large re-vamp that I doubt the developers at Relic would ever do it.

This is the struggle with balance arguments. Not simply discussion what would be best, but what is the most feasible for Relic to do. That would be the most bang for buck, the most results out of the least tweaking.

It's a pity no one has really brought any attention to your point, but no doubt other people feel the same way as I pointed out. It's just a bit too far out there to be potentially changed by Relic.

Kudos though on one of the coolest and original ideas I've seen in a long time. Normally its everyone arguing the same points back and forth till we get blue in the face.

Very creative Subaku,

Cheers

[Slyfe]

Ok so i got my buddy to run a few games last night in auto and save the replays, he just reformatted his comp so he lost all his old ones and needs to DL a zipping file but i will get him to post a replay of Cultist Nade Spam for you guys followed by effectivly teching into tier 2 defilers+horrors.

[SubakuGaara]

If you're running, it means you were outmatched. If you were outmatched, it means I can probably take you as it is. You don't know the number of games I've played where I ran away and was secretly thinking "gee I hope he doesn't attack me right now because if he does I'm toast". Yet for some reason, people never attack even though my base is completely naked. All I have are the remaining troops from the massacre he just handed me. I don't know why people think my base is the "end all fortress of defense thats inpentrable and will bring quick death to all opponents". its just land where I build stuff. At most I'll have like a turret or 2. I always chase people down when they run away, unless if there are like a mass of requisition points to be had. Then I might consider backing off.

How about making the demon prince a one time purchase? What about allowing a player to switch back and forth between chaos lord form and demon prince form?

[War-Reborn]

Except that if you look at their weapon list you will see that the CC weapon used by oblits is a PF too. And they are stronger than Termies that's why their CC DPS is a bit higher (but still pathetic).

GK prove that a unit with good CC and descent ranged dmgs aren't OP (if we except the over the top daemon dmgs). So I would like to make oblits reversed GK with better ranged than CC, higher life but no psychic power. And normal termies too.

I am not for giving oblits daemon armor as it would mean that oblits would have a lesser armor than termies which isn't right cause oblits are meant to be less but tougher than termies. And right now they just have +100 HP. A bit more costy oblits with moral back is all they need to compensate for the buffed CC and lascannon.

About GL cultists vs guardmen GL there is more to consider :

- Guardmen GL outrange cultists GL so if you use a spotting unit you can easily destroy a cultitst force with few losses cause of the low HP and reinforcement time of cultists.

- Guardmen GL are more damaging than cultists GL but they are also a bit more costy and cultists can get more GL by squad with HW upgrade.

- Also the cultist GL rush is an all or nothing rush cause it slows a lot the chaos tech cause no matter what, you will need a temple in T2 if you want to make any other infantry than cultists that really don't scale as well as guardmen (and you also need a temple to make AC in cultists squads). And armory+temple is a lot more costy for chaos than tactica+bunker for IG. And it also relies on a very low life platform so it's a very risky (but rewarding if you outplay your openent) move.

So if you want to nerf cultists GL go for it but just a bit. No FoM and maybe a minimum range (but lower than GL guardmen cause of lower max range) and that's all (setup time is overkill). Or you'll make it a never used weapon cause of plasma gun.

fair points, but good cc has never been a point emphasized on oblits, were it has been on termies in the past, Termies are very good ranged infantry killers, but there ok v buildings an light veicles too, they should get perhaps just under mid level cc abilties, to reflect that seeing as there mainly there for killing infantry, reasonable cc should be part of the package for a elite level unit, an also on historical context its somthing the unit has had in the past.
Oblits the emphasis is on ranged aswell, but rather than being just anti infantry units, the emphasis is on the unit being good at all ranged combat (having a specialised weapon that is good vs all targets), problem here is the unit, is not much better than a terminator squad vs the very targets were its supposed to be superior, infact due to its lower hp taken as a squad i have found it to be worse in most combat situations were the reverse should have been true.
Personally i dont care if they buff termies cc or not, the unit is very good an even with reasonable cc, you'd still want to get it out of the action an back into shooter mode anyhows, so i doubt a buff or non buff will make any differance, as talk of being out' cc'd by scouts or GM's wont change, sure the scouts might loose after a while rather than a never ending fight etc but ur terms will still be tied up in cc for longer than you want them too, so u'l pull erm back, to get them doing what there good at shooting, trouble with oblits is there not that good a unit now, i feel the small squad size is a big factor in this, hence my sugestion of an increase which would increase the ranged power by virtue of more bullets being fired, this would give the unit a noticable of extra ranged power in the area's were its supposed to have an advantage (but currently does'nt show much), tanks an buildings, it would also address, the sqauds low health as a whole.
Alternativley you could do it in reverse reduce the squad in size to 4 perhaps or perhaps 5 with lower hp, give them commnader armour, an a fair sized buff to las gun damage, an an increase to the range an rate of fire of the plasma gun, autocannon i would leave at current levels as this is by far there best weapon (least used too it seems pity since it packs as much or more firepower than the others + good range) the second suggestion of commander armour would keep the look of the sqaud the same, but address its poor life under fire, an the fact that some weapons could use improvements (plamsa,las) an others even tonedowns (autocannon) if you could choose ur oblits weapon, plasma would'nt get a look in over the autocannon, plasma needs a range, an rate of fire improvement or they shoudl jus drop it, an have las - autocannons as the units two weapons

[DukeRustfield]

MY EYES!!!!!!

[Fannin]

Duke, in two words you have summed up to the letter my exact thoughts regarding that post. I salute you.

Now, quit forcing me to agree with you! It's offensive!!!

Subaku:

As an Imperial Guard player, I have been in many a situation where pulling back from a failed attack has preserved enough of my troops to allow me to conduct a successful defensive action from my base. Throwing away troops when you know they're going to be slaughtered is wasteful, and can turn a close game into a definite loss.

I have a recent replay posted in the Battle Archives which shows an example of this.

[Deaths Abyss]

Your base also allows you to bring out units whereas the enemy has this massive supply line to reinforce with. Doesnt hurt as much with eldar, when you can pop out WS on gitz at any time. But this is widely off-topic.

Cultists nades setup is a sensible option. It may be an obscure strat but that doesn't nessacrly make it a balanced strat. After the patch it may become the number one pain in the ass strat which will need a fix. Best to get it out of the way now.

[War-Reborn]

Duke, in two words you have summed up to the letter my exact thoughts regarding that post. I salute you.

Now, quit forcing me to agree with you! It's offensive!!!

Subaku:

As an Imperial Guard player, I have been in many a situation where pulling back from a failed attack has preserved enough of my troops to allow me to conduct a successful defensive action from my base. Throwing away troops when you know they're going to be slaughtered is wasteful, and can turn a close game into a definite loss.

I have a recent replay posted in the Battle Archives which shows an example of this.

sorry shall we just apply the simple aproach, like relic did with 10%FOM penalty across the board, an a predator that wont direct all its fire at a chosen target (because why get complex when you can jus shove some nice graphic on the existing side bolters, bugged or not)
balance is a complex issue that can seriously affect the games dynamic's, if your brain cant handle length or complexity what possible meaningful contribution can either of you 2 make

[SubakuGaara]

Well heres how I see it. I can build 4 CSMS for 190 in about the same amount of time it takes to reinforce add two CSMS. Its also more costly to individually add csms at a rate of 50 each, though just slightly. Typically if a squad is about to die, ie has 20 percent of its members left, you don't gain anything in trying to save that squad. If you retreat it, it will probably die anyway, and even if it makes it back to your base, you will have to reinforce the entire squad which is slower and more costly than just buying the base amount to start and so on. The only time I retreat a squad thats going to lose a battle is to lead an overaggressive enemy AWAY FROM MY BASE, so that I can buy time to build new CSMs. My base is slightly easier to defend that open ground, but only slightly...

Anyway, I disagree that obliterators are great units. Obliterators are lousy units. They are good infantry killers, but at tier 3 with chaos plasma, who needs an obliterator squad to kill infantry? What chaos really needs in tier 3 is a good vehicle/ building killer and obliterators just do a lousy job (despite getting that designation). Look at the damage data posted by the relic wiki community on DOW DC or the damage data posted by that slowrunner guy here. Both show that obliterators do mediocre damage to vehicles. They are worse than tankbustas in that respect. Their damage to heavy high vehicles is even more laughable. I propose a vehicle damage boost to the obliterators to make them more of a tier 3 unit.

[Fannin]

War-Reborn:

Making your posts presentable is hardly using the "simple" approach.

I don't mean to be snide, but if you can't be bothered to hit the enter key every now and then, I can't be bothered to try to read your post. It's as simple as that.

Subakuu:

I see where you're coming from, and if I played Chaos, I might agree with you (IG bases are great to retreat to). However, I still cannot believe that intentionally letting troops die rather than retreating them is a good idea. At the very least you can get back to the covering fire provided by an LP2, or to whatever units you were holding in reserve.

[War-Reborn]

don't be so pendantic, there are 3 main paragraphs there, ok theres not a space between them just a full stop... big deal, if you have nothing constructive to add then dont add anything at all, is it really that difficult

[Fannin]

It consists of no spacing lines or capital letters. Why should I have to strain my eyes if what you said isn't important enough to you to warrant cleaning it up?

[SubakuGaara]

How about buffing chaos obliterators to be better with vehicles?


Concerning letting troops die, trust me I've sat down and thought about whether or not to let my troops die or not. My logic leads me to believe that if I'm going to lose a skirmish run right away. If I get locked into a skirmish or halfway into a skirmish it becomes clear I will lose, turn off the reinforce button and fight to the death. Meanwhile, start rebuilding back at home and bolstering defense if possible. The reason is clear. It will drain resources faster to openly stay in a battle you can't win and running away will have units take damage without them doing real damage back. Often the units running back never make it back. My message is clear. If you can't win a fight, run away at the start. But once a fight begins, you should never run away back to your base. At best splinter the enemy force by leading at least some of them away from your base. If they choose to attack you base, you will be able to perform a pincer motion with the newly built units at your base and the attacking units from the remaining force that wasn't chased. If you're lucky, the entire enemy force will chase the running away force for a while and buy you some valuable time. But running back to your base is a bad idea especially with the reinforce button on as you drain resources as you try to prolong a losing effort and invite your opponent to give you a (I like to call it a...) "supplementary attack". You only want to reinforce if that unit will do its worth in requisition in damage. That is if I spend the 20 seconds and the 50 req for that 1 SPM, he better do 20 seconds and 50 req worth damage or I've wasted both the time and the money.

[tygereye]

Subaku as I already said I agree that oblits should be better at killing vehicules at range.

But I also think that they should be better at CC. Let's compare them to Warp spiders. they both can teleport (but WS don't have to pay an upgrade for it) but WS cast their teleport faster and also run way faster than oblits to get out of trouble. So I think that oblits, because they are slow and then aren't good to get away from melee should be descent at CC too. If they need to be a bit more costy to make up for it so be it.

[SubakuGaara]

Actually, about the CC I think you're wrong. Increasing the cc of the obliterators to say the same amount as normal CSMs would do nothing. Lets say hypothetically the Obliterators have the same DPS in melee as a raptor. Would that stop you from sending melee units to tie up the obliterator squad? A smart player would do that even if all he could send are cultists. Cultists in melee may fall against a 5 man obliterator squad where each oblit has raptor type damage (and with a hesistant "may" since cultists do reinforce rather quickly) but its still beneficial to send the cultists to fight them. Cultists in ranged vs oblit last 5 seconds, while cultists in melee vs oblits last 1 minute. In addition, the damage done by the obliterator in melee will pale in comparison to what would have been done if allowed to shoot in ranged. So if the goal is to keep those cultists off you, its not going to be accomplished anyway; those cultists and guardians will still be sent to tie up those obliterators.Only if obliterator melee was dramatically bumped up (to like berzerker type levels vs infantry) would the desired effect you want be achieved.

Anyway, thats only part of why I think you're wrong. Here's the real punch. Have you ever seen an obliterator squad walking across a map alone? Have you ever seen an obliterator squad in action without a large group of CSM's nearby? I've seen a couple of terminator squads by themselves (usually accompanied by a dreadnought), but never have I seen someone warp in a single obliterator squad anywhere without that obliterator squad having some fire support extremely close by. My point is that oblits don't need good melee damage because if they get tied up in melee with infantry units, CSMs which in tier 3 will rock any infantry squad in the game should be nearby to support with their plasma and HB fire. Its not up to the obliterators to defend themselves when engaged in melee. A smart chaos user would have his CSMs just blast the meleeing units to death. The only melee squad that might really trouble an oblit is the assault terminator as they have heavy armor and lots of HP, but then again, they are just as slow as the obliterators.

This is also my argument for why Oblits need better vehicle killing ability and why the chaos sorcerer needs to be able to summon horrors for free (like the ethereal and his bodyguards). Why do chaos need 2 more infantry killers? Everyunit in chaos is a damn good infantry killer. What they really need is something that can help punch a hole in a tank as well.

[Ruzdreg]

It seems quite strange realy - Necron Warriors represent a true Chaos Oblitorator where as Oblitorators themselves do not.



Oblitorators should be slow moving units with powerful weapons, effective against all targets and have no fireing penaulties for shooting on the move.

With the current state of Oblitorators in DC I suggest the following:

• Increase melee dmage as they have powerfist for combat which are highly powerful and loosing to scouts in combat realy is just pathetic.
• Give them no penaulties for FOTM, as they're designed for FOTM!
• Increase anti-tank damage, Oblitorators are known and used mainly for their anti-tank weapons. I would like to see that lascannon do more damage, but I would also like them to pull out their twin linked meltagun for short range against tanks / buildings but sadly that'll never happen from a simple patch.

[DeafMute]

I have to disagree with the Chaos Space marine plasma nerf.

Its the only decent weapon CSMs get compared to that of there SM counter-parts which get the whole sha-bang.
HB - P - F - RL - SM

HB - P - CSM

I feel changing the plasma would render CSM usless.

[SubakuGaara]

Dude, read my argument. Increasing the cc of the oblit to say raptor level, won't keep the scouts off them. It will still be strategically sound to tie up obliterators in melee. Think about it like this. Lets say obliterators did 250 damage in melee and 9999 damage in ranged. How would you attack them? Would you send ranged units to attack them? Or would you send melee units to attack them? People will still tie them up with cc and hope to have some firesupport. The values I list are greatly exaggerated, but the point is clear. Only if the cc is dramatically raised to like berzerker level will people stop. Thats quite a huge boost.

About a FOTM penalty, I didn't know that the obliterator had a high one. I always thought their FOTM penalty was lower than most units

Don't nerf the chaos space marine plasma. Here's why.

Its tier 3. Its tier 3. Its tier 3. All the other upgrades people have like tier 1 or at best tier 2. The plasma is tier 3. It deserves to be strong. Besides they are infantry, and strong infantry can be knocked down, hit with spells, tied up in melee, have morale broken and on and on. There are other ways to get around a primarily infantry army.

[Slyfe]

I kinda like how Olits/Gitz/Terms are super shooty but have little to no melee capabilities. It provides strategy. Sure thier great when kept at range...But can you keep them at range? Thats good balance to me. Highs and Lows.

[War-Reborn]

agree on the cc, a small buff would make no differance an a large buff would, be to much for a specialist ranged unit, it would be nice if that weapon choice actually meant decent ranged damage to all targets, including things like tanks, rather than just buildings an infantry, which is somthing standard terms do just aswell with only one weapon at there disposal, an as i've already stated they last considerably longer too.

[tygereye]

So : subaku, I am for at least doubling the current CC of oblits which would make each of them do more dmgs than 1 raptor, but a full squad of raps would outdamage them. And that's the idea : if you want to tie oblits in melee and win you would have to pay the price and not just throw a squad of 4 45 req scouts in melee.

Also oblits being better at ranged than in melee don't mean that you will only use them at range. What about deepstriking oblits in the middle of this SM HB squad and CC them instead of fighting them at range? Then if they try to run away just shoot them to death in the back.

Oblits should be expensive well rounded units while now they are rather cheap ranged AI only units.

[Cyberbob]

I just can't help but marvel at how everyone's supporting a melee buff for Oblits which would take them *beyond* Raptors, but when it was suggested that Termies be buffed to mere Tac level... eruption.

If Oblits have their CC damage buffed (and I'm in support of that, don't get me wrong), vanilla Termies must recieve a similar improvement.

[SirNick]

I just can't help but marvel at how everyone's supporting a melee buff for Oblits which would take them *beyond* Raptors, but when it was suggested that Termies be buffed to mere Tac level... eruption.

Quoted for truth.

Really. If you need melee, use Possessed. If you're being tied up, use the teleporter. There's a bug where they'll fire when kneeling anyways, and they won't be tied up then.

Obliterators are just fine as far as I'm concerned.

So are Terminators, but I've got less T3 SM experience.

[tygereye]

I totally agree cyborg I think that if oblits CC is x2 or a bit more, termies CC should be treated the same. But this is a chaos post that's why people are talking more about oblits than termies.

[Cyberbob]

But this is a chaos post that's why people are talking more about oblits than termies.

I know that...

I'm only pointing out the sudden change of heart everyone's had.

[Slyfe]

I think the problem with these huge threads is that all the fanboys who dont actually care about balance and just want to see thier race superior to others find it. Its tough to tell sometimes who's seriously looking for a balanced game and whos just fighting because they like thier team powerful.

No names are being called in this thread just stating the unfortunate truths.

[Hirmetrium]

Slyfe your an eldar fanboy just as I'm a chaos one. if you don't want to contribute to this discussion, don't post. no one is making you do so.

This thread is about BALANCE. IIRC, chaos is the weakest race in DC, having gained...effectively nothing from the expansion. and you want to nerf them, and are even defending NEEDED buffs. that isn't balance - thats what I call hate. it sounds to me like you have had one too many bad experiances.

FYI, im not a chaos buff maniac. IIRC, I was the one who suggeseted the AC power cost nerf back at the end of WA, and now its in DC. so don't you ever call me a fanboy who doesnt care about balance.

and nick, my first post only registers a tac knife buff

[tygereye]

Well let's stop this rebellion about this thread being only buffing chaos.

First I am for some nerf to compensate for the buffs : zerk tech, sorcerer cost and CSM plasma and maybe even cultist nades a bit.

Second If I said that oblits should be a more well rounded unit, I think in fact that all T3 hardcapped to 1 ranged units should be more versatil, oblits should ony be the most versatil, the most costy and the fewest by squad.

In WA when T3 units weren't hardcapped I could see why T3 ranged units couldn't be versatil : a full cap of well rounded oblits (or normal termies don't flame guys ) could be very hard to deal with. But now that they are hard capped to 1 it's not the same deal : no ranged mass of T3 units anymore. As I already said MANZ and GK prove that a versatil hardcapped to 1 but more expensive unit isn't OP and they are only T2 so they have to face weaker units than in T3.

Also T3 CC units are also good against vehicules when ranged are AI only. That's why I think that AT possessed and maybe ogryns are better than oblits, termies and maybe Kasrkins for example.

So you see that this isn't a buff chaos only thread. This is only a chaos thread.

[War-Reborn]

Possesed are great, but the termies have the great advantage of being just like each other, assault bit tougher (hp wise), but both having ds etc but totally differant strengths, so you can drop them in together, one provides heavy cover fire, while the other heavy melee dmg an stun of veicles etc this gives the unit even more power an strength, the abilty to combine well together, each has strengths that covers the others weakness.
The oblit sqaud often functions apart from the possed squad, one can be ds but moves slow, an the other is very fast, , its ironic that the two units termies, that can also function very well on there own, have the huge benefit of being easily combined, were as chaos, with there much weaker (hp wise) ranged squad, cant combine it so easily with there excellent cc unit, oblits while good dont slot quite so well into a chaos assault as terms do into a sm one.

Elder get 3 of the same unit, so its a non issue, orcs elites also combine very well on the battlefield, its funny but possed an olbits combine better with chaos's lower units than with each other, oblits an horrors, possed an zerks, when looking at an elite unit, you need to look in the context not only of that units power, but how effectivley it fits into your army's ranks, an what kind of strategy you can deploy it in, oblits ds is limited in its use by the units poor lastabilty an the fact you can only back them with ds horrors, this is why the sqaud needs beefing up durabilty wise, to at least a combined sqaud strength of 7000hp, with a decent av punch, this would allow the unit to better use its ds ability, or provide strong support at the front line, somthing its low hp currently limit it's effectiveness at.

AS for cc being better than ranged, hmm tough call, AS terms edge it but only because there stun ability is so very useful, with chaos, easy cos oblits for reasons stated are limited in there role, elder get the same unit 3 times so it's a non issue, nobz' vs gitz hmm i'd say even's here both are excellent, for IG i'd say karks, grenade + excellent range, Ogrens have 625hp per member, which is crap for a tier 3 melee, a small squad (considering they have only 625hp per member, thats a big dissadvantage), an easy to break moral, only good thing about them is there damage, but all tier 3 cc booast excellent damage, as well as high morale an a strong squad hp wise.

(AS terms somthing like 9500 heavy inf high armour) poss (8000 heavy high)
nobz (13000 or so heavy med) ogrens (5400 with a priest) these hp values arn't exact but there pretty close, also Ogrens dont fit so well into the IG line up as karks, while there great in small skimmishes or one on one in large battles there out of there depth, an die like flies to focused fire.

One other solution, for both chaos an IG would be a flexi hardcap of 2, so 2 poss or 2 oblits (same with oggs an karks) of one of each if you want, this would allow the units to function better, as two olbits sqauds would provide the lastabilty an ranged punch that one squad lacks, might need to look into possed though as 2 squads of these might be ott, personally i favour making the units good as a single entity over the flex cap, but i rekon either option would work, an i feel either would be an improvment on the current system

[Slyfe]

I think the problem with these huge threads is that all the fanboys who dont actually care about balance and just want to see thier race superior to others find it. Its tough to tell sometimes who's seriously looking for a balanced game and whos just fighting because they like thier team powerful.

No names are being called in this thread just stating the unfortunate truths.

Slyfe your an eldar fanboy just as I'm a chaos one. if you don't want to contribute to this discussion, don't post. no one is making you do so.

I wasnt directing my comment at anyone in particular Hirm especially not you, but apparently you felt you fufilled that role.

And FYI, Im for WS nerf, and the only buffs i want for the entire race are FotM for ALL walkers not just Eldar, Firedragon Targetting fixed, Viper Missile Accuracy fixed. Im fortunate the Eldar dont need much else looked at.

This thread is about BALANCE. IIRC, chaos is the weakest race in DC, having gained...effectively nothing from the expansion.

I really doubt they are the weakest race,IG seem to hold that title hands down. However thats more of an opinion than anything else.

And you want to nerf them, and are even defending NEEDED buffs. that isn't balance - thats what I call hate. it sounds to me like you have had one too many bad experiances.

Your also putting words in my mouth. I agree completely on many of your points. Horrors and Preds especially. I disagreed on the Demon Prince being a downgrade but agreed he deserved a cost reduction. And the main thing i disagree on is leaving Cultist GL as it is because its extremely powerful and i feel can be a bit Imba when used in certain ways.

My comments are rational and meant no offense to you. I was mearly saying not eveyones comments are in the best intrest of the overall game. Please dont take these things so personally.

[4Servant]

chaos is the weakest race in DC

I lolled so fruiting hard on that one.
Thx hirm just what I needed.

From the 6 playeble races I think chaos is top 3 tau #1 not sure about #2 if thats chaos or eldar.

[Hirmetrium]

then whats SM landspeeder rush? no 7? Tau fire warrior mass vs tac mass? no 6?

[grendizer]

There have been lots of good players reaching top 10 with the current patch up race so despite being a top player I don't think reaching top 10 proves something. Didn't some players reach top 10 with chaos back in 1.2 despite chaos being extremely up?

When I see other good players using chaos against similar skill oponents they fail.

Not meaning they are the most up race but I don't think they are #2 or #3 in strength.

[Ragnarok]

i dont think chaos is one of the weakest......

(you CAN hide your complete army,even more, at T3/4? you can equip them all with chaos plasma, which is really strong....)


thats IMO though.....

[Chris]

Didn't some players reach top 10 with chaos back in 1.2 despite chaos being extremely up?

No? I think Sleign and Thor managed to get top 50 maybe top 20. You practically needed a 1800 score to get into the top 10 and I don't think anyone ever got chaos higher than 1700.

It's funny how chaos being in the top 10/20 or whatever means nothing, but when people want to point out eldar imbalance they scream "LOOK AT THE TOP 10!!!!!".

[4Servant]

Thats cause no gosu players played chaos in the past much.
I mean chaos don't got players like Fear or select/insane/pureball/charlie its a least favorite race somehow.

[Nobunaga]

Chaos gained nothing? How about all the Oblit bugs being fixed and removing the Relic requirement? How about permanent infiltration for your WHOLE DAMN ARMY!? How about tier 3 uber plasma? How about the Blood Thirster buffs (no pop cost)? How about the nerfs to SM tacs (doesn't exactly count but still worth mentioning)?

Chaos really aren't weak at the moment. At all.

[grendizer]

No? I think Sleign and Thor managed to get top 50 maybe top 20. You practically needed a 1800 score to get into the top 10 and I don't think anyone ever got chaos higher than 1700.

Well I remember a guy that won select's 1.2 eldars with chaos. If he wasn't on top 10 he sure had one foot in. 1.2 was a long patch iirc. There was oneguy too and he had a lot of points in ladder, don't remember if he only played chaos in ladder.

Another example is santiago4ever reaching top10 with orks in a patch all orks players left their race because they said it was up. Mmmhh... Impossible is nothing. Please more skilled chaos players showing their goodies. It's like chaos players have to use all the race strengths while other races players have to limit their play so they're not called abusers.

It's funny how chaos being in the top 10/20 or whatever means nothing, but when people want to point out eldar imbalance they scream "LOOK AT THE TOP 10!!!!!".

We are talking about ONE player. Comparing it to eldar, with this race situation and evolution since dow is nonsense. If you search dows expert replays you'll find very few chaos wins if we don't count 4servant.


Servant is right about the gosu player although some of them tried. I'd like to see high level replays with players not trying to not abuse with their race.

I think chaos needs very few changes, almost all of them in tier 3-4. Come on, since 1.2 there have been gosu players saying chaos was perfectly balanced.

There's something wrong (not saying up) with chaos when no gosu players use them, despite 4servant.

Nobunaga, BT does cost pop.

Don't get me wrong, chaos is now better than ever but there are still things to fix. In past patches when chaos wasn't considered up was because 1.3 defiler or raptors, but if you fixed that units chaos was crap again. Relic, give chaos some design loving (no 1.3 defilers, imba raptors o similar things please) so we heretics can get more gosu players to fight for the blood god.

[Chris]

Oneguy and Josey Wales beat select with pretty much everything I think. You don't see many chaos wins because not many people play chaos @ high levels... I don't know why this is. There are plenty of chaos around the 1500-1600 level though... I can't go more than 3 games without running into a chaos player, it's one of my most common matchups.

From what I've seen in automatch conditions chaos tier 3/4 is ridiculously strong, not sure what you'd want to change about it? I used to think Chaos preds were crap but I've been bitchslapped with them enough times to make me reconsider my opinion.

[Rocsflight]

Could Chaos have some poor matchups that scare them away?

[magicalcarpet]

IIRC, chaos is the weakest race in DC

lol wtf? NO WAAAAAY.

I've been playing them for the last couple of days and IMO Chaos are OP for a good amount of the game.

The only part of the game that I have found them to not be strong in is T4 because apart from the Preds (which actually put out pretty amazing DPS) you're reduced to spamming Defilers. However, in most games, it's well over by this point due to the domination you put out in T1/2.

Pretty much the weakest point of Chaos is the fact Horrors should be reinforcable. Also Possessed research has to be changed, like Kassy research.

I'd put Chaos around the Eldar / SM level easily.

[SubakuGaara]

You guys don't think chaos has problems in tier 1 and tier 2? You gotta be crazy. Do me a favor. Lets do a little experiment.

Everyone who openly plays chaos and plays them well, play a computer set on insane 1v1 on the map valley of khorne. Have the resource rate set to standard and the starting resource on standard. See how you fare.

I played the comp 9 times today and lost each time in tier 1 and tier 2. The comp rushes constantly with its Space marines and I had a very very hard time fighting them off. However the first time I picked tau I won and with ridiculous ease. I'm an experienced chaos user. Online I've fought space marines before. The difference is the comp likes to rush without big armies so it becomes more about individual unit matchups. HBs didn't help. Turrets, flamers, nothing. I tried everything and nothing could hold back the space marine onslaught. Quick berzerkers bought me like 2 min worth of extra time and that was it. Couldn't go quick vehicles since the rush was constant. It really opened my eyes to chaos's weakness in tier 1. Before I used to think they were strong. Now I completely differ in that opinion.

Anyway go try it; it'll take like 10 minutes for you to lose and then chaos tier 1 and tier 2 problems will become evident. Essentially the lack of a cheap av solution and the lack of a hero who can supplement troops are the chaos flaws. Chaos lord and sorcerer just don't match up to force commander and chaplain.