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The computer at insane difficulty, if I understand correctly, cheats. I believe that it starts with more resources, and possibly starts with early tech, and isn't a good yardstick for balance issues either way.
It probably isn't the race you are playing, but the rules the computer is playing by, unless you have succeeded using the other races under the same circumstances.
The computer on insane gets massive resource bonuses, it's a pretty retarded comparison.
Also, you're comparing Chaos to Tau, who are obviously overpowered.
EDIT: Also, you're comparing to the SM Chaplain, who has unfair healing rate.
I mean fuck, if I compare GM to NW, it's a stupid comparison.. with the massive NW imba.
Troubleshooter on IG: Tier 4 that looks alot like tier 2, only with the second most massive building attempting to give birth to the largest unit which then promptly gets deleted so you can then move said 2 ton baby out of the rats nest called your base.
War-reborn you maybe right about kasrkins vs Ogryns, that's why I said "maybe". I think that ogryns are a very good CC unit on their own, with a priest they really outdamage every other T3 CC unit. The main problem is : is it really what IG needs in T3? I think that a unit with better HP and less CC DPS would be a lot better for them. What they need is a unit buying time for their ranged mass to deal huge DPS. Eldars and orcs I didn't compare chaos to them cause as you said their endgame squads aren't hardcaped to one. Maybe that I shouldn't have talked about IG in my post as I think that IG T3 don't need the same changes as chaos and SM do.AS for cc being better than ranged, hmm tough call, AS terms edge it but only because there stun ability is so very useful, with chaos, easy cos oblits for reasons stated are limited in there role, elder get the same unit 3 times so it's a non issue, nobz' vs gitz hmm i'd say even's here both are excellent, for IG i'd say karks, grenade + excellent range, Ogrens have 625hp per member, which is crap for a tier 3 melee, a small squad (considering they have only 625hp per member, thats a big dissadvantage), an easy to break moral, only good thing about them is there damage, but all tier 3 cc booast excellent damage, as well as high morale an a strong squad hp wise.
So let's stay with SM and chaos. Let's say that I only have ressources for possessed OR oblits or AT OR termies. I will always do the AT and possessed first. Cause :
1- A full squad of them have more HP than termies and oblits
2- they can fight infantry and vehicules as well (termies totally suck against vehicules and oblits aren't great at all)
3- they have a special attack : AT stun and possessed flamers
So for SM and chaos CC units are far better than ranged units. That's why I think that ranged units with a PF should be better at CC and that oblits lascannon needs a buff (to compensate for their smaller squad than termies).
I always do blits first.
Chaos can be more or less balanced with others races imba's fixed. But overpowered? No way. If something is op in servants replays is his skill.
Being outplayed doesn't mean the other race is balanced or op. I gave you examples already (chaos beating eldar in 1.2 in top players games? Sure that meant chaos were perfectly balanced...). Hirmetrium has a good list in the first post. You may not agree with the fixes he's proposing.From what I've seen in automatch conditions chaos tier 3/4 is ridiculously strong, not sure what you'd want to change about it? I used to think Chaos preds were crap but I've been bitchslapped with them enough times to make me reconsider my opinion.
Chaos drives you better through times with no Tyranids than Tyranids through times with no Chaos.
Fhtagn!
Would you mind explaining me why then 4servant? As I think that possessed has a lot more impact on the battlefield than oblits. Cause they can rape infantry, buildings and vehicules.Originally Posted by 4Servant
Oblits can be deepstriked can teleport and do major damage to building_low meaning its a econ raper wich is really sick if used right.
Also sorc chains + oblit focus is far more effective then psm + chains due ranged damage > melee damage and they don't need to enclose in. Also oblits got aswome range meaning you can shoot on stuff while you put your claocked csm in cease fire.
With psm you can't do this I think its better 9/10 to make oblits first.
#508
Oblits are better than PSM because they don't hold up your research center to build them so.
I don't see any reason to buff oblits further than CC improvements. you want AV, you have horrors - which i have already suggested a slew of buffs for.
You should check out Priority Vox Channel Secundus, a blog!
Well my BO once I reach T3 is that :
1- start building the PSM squad at sac pit, while my heretics are building a greater sac pit.
2- once the PSM are out start reinforcing them on their way to the fight, launch the daemonic mutation research at sac pit and the oblit squad at greater sac pit.
3- DS the oblits in my base, reinforce them and load them again in the Greater Sac Pit, then DS them behind the PSM wall.
4- When I get enough money start the PSM daemonic fire research and the oblit teleport.
This work pretty well as once the daemonic mutation research is made PSM are already a strong and quick CC unit. And daemonic mutation is cheaper than Greater sac pit for oblits.
Also 4servant I find that PSM are a great econ raper too due to their high speed (their building low dmgs are also nearly as good for cost as oblits ones and against other buidings they are better). They can easily strike then fall back. I also find them more useful with cloacked CSM than oblits cause they have the CC power that lakes to the CSM. But what I really like in PSM are their tank busting capacities which means less horrors needed so more pop available for cloacked CSM. So I don't know how you can think that 9/10 times oblits (which for me are just tougher CSM unable to invis) are better : I find PSM much more useful in my BO.
Hirm I don't have too much problems for now with PSM upgrades holding my research center in T3. But I agree that it's because I find T3 upgrades pretty weak for chaos. I usually just bother with the second commander upgrade. I also make as few horrors as possible as they really aren't that great in T3.
Last edited by tygereye; 13th Jan 07 at 8:48 AM.
#510
What are you even talking about?Being outplayed doesn't mean the other race is balanced or op. I gave you examples already (chaos beating eldar in 1.2 in top players games? Sure that meant chaos were perfectly balanced...). Hirmetrium has a good list in the first post. You may not agree with the fixes he's proposing.
The only thing I agree with about chaos late tiers being inferior is that they have to pay more to go tier 4 than anyone else... but I'm starting to see why.
Looking through the demonic projectile DPS lists I am shocked to find out the pred does 217dps to vehicle_med.,255dps to vehicle_light and 84dps to vehicle_high. This monster does more damage to vehicle med and light than a predator annihilator ontop of dealing between 100-160dps to various infantry targets. The annihilator deals a massive... 7 more dps to vehicle_high.
How anyone could think that this tank scales poorly is beyond reason. 2 predator tanks upgrading to demonic projectiles in the middle of a fight, before your opponent can even start building their tier 4 tank = GG no RE. The only reason you don't see predator tanks in tier 2/3 is because Chaos infantry is so strong that they don't even need vehicle support most of the time and the FoTM penalty.
Last edited by Chris; 13th Jan 07 at 8:22 AM.
Really? On insane comp gets more requisition? I watched the replays and it seemed that the comp was getting exactly the same as I was. It started with the same amount and it didn't get any sort of noticeable boost in the rates. It wasn't outproducing me in terms of resource. It was just stronger. Marine rushs with the Force commander took more out of me resource wise than it did out of him. Repeat 4 times and you have a big difference in position. I can't say that it cheats. I watched the replays and I didn't notice anything funny going on. I guess I'll look at them again.
Still its disturbing to me how I won SO EASILY with the tau on the first try.
True
Comp cheats? I'm initially dubious of that statement. I watched the replays. It got the same starting amount and i didn't notice anything funny about the resource rate (I know how to count and know what to expect). In my opinion, I wasn't outplayed, just out muscled. If the comp is cheating, please illustrate a little further so I can finally feel better about myself for losing to it 9 times in a row.
Still, it disturbs me how EASILY I won with Tau. It was absolutely ridiculous. I also had a fairly good shot of winning with my first try as space marine (but fell short because I forgot to incorporate a marine squad in my strategy). Chaos and its AV struggles are pretty serious. In essence chaos lacks the equivalent of a "landspeeder" or grav tank or that shoota thing the orks have. They lack a cheap vehicle and lack cheap AV solutions.
Lets say you know your opponent is going for the easy landspeeder rush. Its very hard to defend as chaos, even with harassment. If you choose to harass him, you'll be tying yourself to tier 1. If you choose to tech with him, by the time he gets out 4 landspeeders you'll only have one defiler (or if you're stupid one horror squad). Well placed turrets are ok, but the jump ability compensates for that. Its very difficult for chaos who lack a cheap av solution. Horrors aren't that good. Come on people. Lets look at the facts. Of all the av solutions in the game, the horror is the last one I'd select. All they do is damage vehicles. They don't do knock down, they don't cloak, they don't do the massive damage a firedragon squad does or immortal squad. And they are bloody expensive for a tier 2 unit. One horror squad is about the same price as an obliterator squad but only 20percent as useful.
What viable options do chaos have against a landspeeder that costs 120/80? By viable, I mean in terms of price. A marine boy can keep kicking out landspeeders while teching elsewhere. Those things are dirt cheap. Chaos however have no cheap av solution. Horrors will tie you down (and cost almost as much as an obliterator squad) and defilers and predators are so costly that to get them out as an AV solution almost means an exclusive teching towards them. All the other races have cheaper and more effective AV solutions.
#513
No one can fight landspeeders cost effectively because they're too cheap.
Don't even try to make horrors sound expensive, they're the cheapest AV infantry in the game.
If you're bitchslapped by chaos preds doesn't mean anything. I've kicked ass with DP , so what? That makes a good unit?What are you even talking about?
Well chris, the point of balance is that for every strategy any race uses, the other races should have an effective counter. Chaos's weak av platform makes them unbalaced. Now about horrors I did some research and I honestly see what you're saying about horrors. At 250/50 they're price is typically between 10-15 percent of these various units fully reinforced
Firedragon
Tankbusta
Immortal
also to reinforce a space marine squad to 5 missile launchers costs about 300/50 (just for the missle launchers)
So yes the price is right, and they even have pretty high hp. However they are pricey in that you have to buy the fully reinforced squad. Lets say we apply that logic to Space marines where you can only buy a full squad of 8 at the price of 8, or if you had to buy a full raptor squad at the full price. In that respect, no they are not cheap. People often fight with just the base unit force (ie 4 CSMs or maybe 6 csms or maybe 7 raptors. Seeing a full csm squad is rare in early games anyway). People often don't have 5 missle laucnhers in a marine squad. They have just 2 and its good enough to hold them. The 3 man firedragon squad (165/30) is good enough to seriously punch a hold in a defiler. My point is a fully reinforced squad is pricey to buy despite the price of a horror squad actually being fair; just buying them all at once is pricey and in tier 2 is difficult. In addition, it gives an advantage to other races who can micro requisition better because they don't have to buy a full tankbusta squad or a full immortal squad; they can just buy what they need. WE however have to shell out big dough and sometimes in a heated battle its easier to save up 165/20 for 3 firedragons that 250/50 for a full horror squad. Make em cheaper I say.
Oh about the damage of horrors, horrors do damage on par with everything elsethats an infantry killer. Space marine rocket launchers are the best damage (but cost more). Horrors are in the middle somewhere, behind stealthsuits.
Imagine if you had to buy space marine squads that were fully reiinforced at the full price each time. The price may be fair in that you actually pay what each marine is priced but it'd limit your flexibility.
#516
I can't agree that 250/50 is 'big dough'. A fresh CSM squad costs 190, berzerkers cost 200/50, lord costs 220/50... 250/50 is pretty standard for a SM/CSM tier 2 unit. The only way 250/50 could look expensive is if you've only placed DC and not DoW/WA, because in DC people have a bad habbit of teching quickly on a poor economy. I also think you are exagerating how effective 3 fire dragons are, 3 without an exarch will deal 75dps. They're nothing special until they get an exarch.
You are making a typical mistake of comparing a unit that is almost perfectly balanced (horrors) to a unit that is broken (landspeeder) and then claiming that the balanced unit is a weakness. Horrors have lost some of their uniqueness due to the stupid accuracy penalities Relic introduced. If/when they fix moving accuracy horrors will be fine I think.
Ahh I disagree. 250/50 is indeed big dough simply for the reason you stated. In DC, people have to tech quickly on poor economy sometimes just to meet a certain match up. Becaues this is true its hard to muster the 250/50 needed for a horror squad thats only useful against vehicles and even in that respect is only so so. Its not law by design; its just law by application. Thats just how it is and in practice a horror squad just isn't a viable option because they are expensive at the time when they are needed. 250/50 for a non reinforceable squad that permanently loses effectiveness as the members die, does not have any special abilities, has low range, is rather slow, and when morale is broken die even faster is a high price to pay especially in the middle of a heated battle. If the price won't change, let the first horror squad be free. After that the chaos user is on his own
(I think the best suggestion is to let the chaos sorcerer be able to summon x number of horror squads like how the ethereal can summon bodyguards. This would make the sorcerer more useful in tier 2. As it stands the chaos sorcerer in tier 2 is bloody useless)
Well Hirm we could also say that if you need AI you have CSM plasma which are far better at AI than horrors at AV. So why make oblits then?
I think that oblits need a better lascannon more than better CC. But I support both and a bit cost increase and moral back for them. The real strengh of oblits would then be their versatility what they were at first designed to be.
Last edited by tygereye; 13th Jan 07 at 12:16 PM.
If oblits need anything its a nerf a bug on this dudes is insane cause they are so cheap and cost effective its unreal.
they are also incredibily easily made useless. Throw any CC jump squad at them and you'll see what I mean.
#521
The DPS charts look pretty accurate, but only 18dps to vehicle_med? I'm sure I've seen Oblits putting out more damage than that... Buffing their lascannons might not be such a smart idea considering a single squad deals 300 odd dps to heavy_med/inf_high...
Which is a unique problem for oblits? No.they are also incredibily easily made useless. Throw any jump squad at them and you'll see what I mean.
Nope it's not the unique problem of oblits. But oblits being so slow it's even more a problem for them. So you really need the teleport research with oblits which make them a not so cheap unit. Termies have the same problem but at least their teleport research also works for AT.
Edit : the DPS chart seems accurate for oblits. The thing is that the lascannon don't fire often so they deal not bad dmgs by shot to vehicules. But trust me PSM once in CC are far more effective than oblits against vehicules.
About buffing their lascannon I am for upping Oblits price a bit to compensate for the buff (while the melee buff would be free cause the termies would get it also). That means that oblits would be a bit less AI effective for cost but more AV effective for cost.
Finally about the 300 DPS to heavy_med, a squad of termies with assault cannons deals a bit more DPS and also have something like 8000 HP instead of 5500 for oblits.
Last edited by tygereye; 13th Jan 07 at 1:01 PM.
That would make oblits even more imba then they are already.
Seriously whats the god damm deal with that CC they can teleport you got chains tying them up in CC is the only real counter to them apart from artilery.
#524
And a full squad of terminators costs more, takes longer to reinforce, takes longer to upgrade heavy weapons which have a set up time.Finally about the 300 DPS to heavy_med, a squad of termies with assault cannons deals a bit more DPS and also have something like 8000 HP instead of 5500 for oblits.
If you're going to draw comparisons at least make ones that are relevant.
And a full squad of terminators costs more, takes longer to reinforce, takes longer to upgrade heavy weapons which have a set up time.
If you're going to draw comparisons at least make ones that are relevant.
Ok you want a revelant comparison here it comes :
Take away heavy weapons from termies they aren't cost effective :
- a full squad of termies cost : 50/25 x8 = 400/200
- they have nearly 8000 HP
- they deal : 34 x 8 = 272 DPS to heavy_med
Now let's take oblits :
- a full squad of oblits cost: 80/25 x5 = 400/125
- they have 5500 HP
- they deal : 61 x5 = 305 DPS to heavy_med
Now you want to tell me that oblits are better for cost than termies at AI??? They surely aren't
Damn guys oblits have 5500 HP by squad only for a hardcapped to 1 T3 unit!!! That is their weakness, they don't need another one. And I don't want to make them CC monsters. I just want to make them descent at CC but they will still loose to CC specialists for cost. The only thing is that you'll need CC specialists to tie oblits in CC and not any unit that you have at hand (grots, scouts etc...). And don't forget I am for upping termies CC also.
Finally I want to pay for the lascannon buff with a bit higher cost and moral back. I don't think that I am asking too much here.
Last edited by tygereye; 13th Jan 07 at 2:08 PM.
#526
Obliterators also have:
* More range than Terminators (30 v. 25, and Oblits have 35 with Lascannon)
* Way more mass than Terminators (40 v. 30, making them as tough to knock down as a Nob)
* Much, much more DPS versus infantry_heavy_high (the actual armor class of Terminators and Obliterators) both per member and for a full squad# (250+ for the Oblits v. 200+ for the full Terminator squad).
* No Morale (compared to 750 morale and better morale armor than anything else in the game, but still breakable).
Just a few things that come to mind just checking DPS tables and the like.
# - With two Assault Cannons the total Termie squad DPS is ~280 or so to heavy_high, but it'll take babying to keep the whole squad in range for their Storm Bolters as well as it adds a full 140/80 to the squad's cost.
Handy Links for DoW Numbers (DPS, stats in general)
Dawn of War Player's Guide Wiki -- It's got it all!
Official Super-Cool Important Dark Crusade .LUAs - Thanks Buggo!
Slow_Runner's List of Everything Dark Crusade 1.11
Slow_Runner's DC DPS Charts, Organized by Race/Unit
Excedrin's WA Unit Statistics Calculator, DPS Charts
Sir Nick's List of Undocumented WA 1.5 Changes
#527
Why the fuck would you want to build obliterators anyway? Cloaked CSM are a far better choice vs any kind of infantry.
#528
Oh, I don't know, what say you about:
*Deep Striking
*Much more HP per man
*Instant usability on reinforcement
*Teleportation
*Not having to rely on a leader for most of the firepower
I think Obliterators are a very nice thing to have.
Heck, there's a bug or something weird anyhow where you can have an Obliterator fire its Lascannon, then move it, then stop the movement immediately and it'll fire its Lascannon again without the 3-second recharge. You can get a ton more shots off that way and it's quite broken. That's something even more to think about.
SirNick if you read all my posts you would see that I am for giving moral back to oblits.
Also concerning heavy_high : 200+ dmgs with 8000 HP vs 250+ dmgs with 5500 HP is still in favor of termies, though for cost I must admit that they are close. But still termies are better against heavy_med and hardcapped T3 armies aren't made only of heavy_high armor. But let's say that oblits pay for their higher range and their weight. But there are things in the favor of termies that I didn't mention too : what about attaching an apoth to the termie squad for example? Also At max they are equal for cost but as always SM is better with termies against oblits popwise. But nevermind I'm used to it in the SM vs chaos match.
Let's even say that oblits and termies are equal right now, if chaos pay with a bit higher cost for a lascannon buff I don't see how that would imbalance the match.
Excactly Energizer! Even if CSM plasma is a bit OP. But you can't nerf it to oblivion anyway now that it is a T3 weapon. So oblits need to fill a different role : a well rounded unit that can fight anything except CC specialists but that pay for that with a lower squad size than termies.Why the fuck would you want to build obliterators anyway? Cloaked CSM are a far better choice vs any kind of infantry.
Well I didn't know about that but should we really balance units around bugs? I would say fix that bug and raise Lascannon DPS.Heck, there's a bug or something weird anyhow where you can have an Obliterator fire its Lascannon, then move it, then stop the movement immediately and it'll fire its Lascannon again without the 3-second recharge. You can get a ton more shots off that way and it's quite broken. That's something even more to think about.
#530
Whoops! Do color me ignorant on that point, missed that line several posts ago. Very inconspicuous.
But, that suggestion does seem off to me. Why would we put morale on Obliterators? What would happen when broken? Isn't the very defining trait of Obliterators from the get-go that they just don't break?
And, if Obliterators are underpowered against vehicles as well as compartive to Terminators, from what I understand your argument to be, why would we increase their cost?
Apothecaries on Terminator Squads, I don't see that as too much of a problem when actually in combat since an Apothecary has 200 HP of infantry_med. He'll vaporize with a single Lascannon shot, guaranteed. Out of combat, then yes, that's a big advantage, as well as the Chaplain.
Though the other thing in the SM lineup is that they get a Whirlwind with their Terminators, which is totally >> anything infantry that Chaos has, while Chaos doesn't have anything to pound Terminators with in comparison. Then there's the insta-nukes of the Grey Knights and Librarian and Word of the Emperor...
But that's a lot of factors in play, especially when the perceived problem at hand is a comparison between Obliterators v. Terminators and no other interracial matchups.
I think that within the Chaos army, Obliterators fulfill a decent role - quickly accessed concentrated firepower against everything that deepstrike and teleport.
Compared to CSM, that's pretty nice.
An Obliterator squad takes 30s to build and 12s per member to reinforce.
A CSM squad takes 26.4 seconds to build, 9s per reinforce, and 12s per Plasma Gun. Plasma Guns are 40/10 so you've got a Plasma CSM at a cost of 21s, 90/10, with a grand 475 HP if they have PtW Champions, 375 HP otherwise.
Yeah, for pop and for sheer numbers, CSM Plasma is absurdly cost-effective, but that's a critical mass that takes some big time to acquire and will probably take a nerf next patch. Ignoring the nerf, thinking about what does exist now, Plasma's on a more fragile platform that takes longer to acquire and doesn't teleport. That's incentive to get Obliterators -- they're consistent performers.
Yeah, I think we should keep balance ideas in mind with regards to the bug. Just like how there's wonder about the impact to IG once the Execute bugs are removed, there should be consideration about that Lascannon bug before Lascannon buffs are suggested. Just a thought though.
#531
Woah guys, slow the hell down.
Tygereye, I think that what your saying is a bit OTT as well. Obliterators are fine in the grand scale of things.
Energizer, take you CSM cloak hate back to the CSM cloak thread.
One last thing Hirm
And, if Obliterators are underpowered against vehicles as well as compartive to Terminators, from what I understand your argument to be, why would we increase their cost?
The thing is even if we consider that for cost termies = oblits against AI (even if I still think that termies are a bit better
Edit : but to tell the truth I would say that the main reason why I want oblits to be made more versatil is to make them something esle than CSM under steroïds unable to invis. I just compared them to termies to prove that this wouldn't make oblits OP.
Last edited by tygereye; 13th Jan 07 at 3:34 PM.
#533
I expect somebody with a DPS chart to soon debunk that :P
#534
Actually, checking the DPS charts, I see that 8 Termies with 2 Assault Cannons will have 108-odd DPS to vehicle_med and 5 Oblits get to have 95 DPS with the Assault Cannon/Lascannon, 125 DPS if the Twin-Linked Plasma is used.
Not bad for the Termie squad, actually.
Considering that data, tygereye, now I can see how that a anti-vehicle buff would maybe merit a bit of a cost increase, since it's long-range and heavy-duty platform being used. Kind of interesting.
It'd take some experimentation, but I see how that could be a valid point. Still need to consider PSM AV and in conjunction with Horrors / Preds / Defilers and all. But that's another thing too.
Very good. The point is beginning to come across. Now consider the roles of the termies and the obliterators in their respective armies.
Don't give obliterator's morale. They are daemons from hell. Those things shouldn't break.
Don't boost the cc. You'd have to boost the cc seriously high before people stop tying them up in cc with grots and scouts. Besides, obliterators are almost always surrounded by infantry. You will never seen an oblit squad by itself. Use the supporting units to help and teleport away. CC boost is unnecessary.
Do increase vehicle damage. Chaos already has a lousy antivehicle platform to work with. Oblit las cannon just doesn't cut it against the vehicles that it will face (tier 2/3 heavy vehicles). I'm not summoning oblits to shoot down a landspeeder here and there. At tier 3 I can do that with just a basic CSM. I need oblits to tangle with predators and with lord destroyers and tier 3 type vehicles.
#536
That was actually a typo on my part - I meant to say plasma CSM.Energizer, take you CSM cloak hate back to the CSM cloak thread
On a different note though - don't start threads called "1.51 Chaos Issues" if you aren't willing to have people discuss all the issues regarding Chaos, rather than whatever you feel like chatting about at that particular point. What I said was relevant to the topic whether you agreed with it or not.
#537
We have discussed it - TO DEATH. we have the changes up there at the first post. Possibly a good 1/3 of this thread was devoted to that subject. There isn't any point covering it any more, and even more so since theres a specific thread about it.
There are plenty of other 'issues' chaos have. bringing one of the biggest glaring imbalances of CSM plasma combined with cloak will NOT improve the situation.
I suppose the oblit melee suggestion might as well go. its just another thing for QA to forget, anyway.
#538
I'm not arguing against Oblits getting some reasonable cc damage. There's an old buff-termie melee thread kicking around somewhere in which it was generally agreed that both Termie and Oblits needed at least some cc damage improvements. My stance on that hasn't changed.
#539
Ok engergizer. Its just I didn't see too much point anyway, its not like this would change a lot for oblits, possibly one of the slowest units in the game, to be able to kill a HQ in 5seconds flat...I bet most people wouldn't even notice.
In fact I think that you are right Suna no Tate : I might have gone nerfing too much oblits with moral listening to people telling me that oblits are soooo OP.Don't give obliterator's morale. They are daemons from hell. Those things shouldn't break.
About the CC buff : the fact is that in DC CC units are usualy better for cost than ranged units. So at first it seems ok that AT deal more dmgs and have more HP than termies. Same for PSM vs oblits (even if PSM get a serious kick in the balls in DC with 150 HP less by squad member while at the same time AT get their stun rate increased, another thing that have to be considered when nerfing CSM plasma). But don't forget that both AT and PSM have a great special attack (stun and flamers) when oblits and termies don't. So a reasonable melee buff for oblits and termies wouldn't make them imba compared to PSM and AT I would say.
Edit : I agree though that a buff to the lascannon is more important than the CC buff. Maybe that you could add the CC buff as "additional" in your first post Hirm.
Last edited by tygereye; 14th Jan 07 at 8:52 AM.
I swear, we had a pages-long discussion about this in another thread. Oblits need decent Melee damage, and it stands to reason since they have to ready to swing anyway.
Oblits need a nerf but no more CC damage its the only counter you have and chains/teleport can your oblits out of fight easy.
Csm already is no skilled in many ways plz don't even argue of removing another fluffy thing that has some tacticel depth.
Oh, I'm not asking for it to be OMGWTFLOL. Just make it so they can't be tied up by goddamned Grotz like they can now.
About your first post Hirm I don't think that relic will give back flamers to CSM and make their HBs T2 since they want CSM to be as far as possible from SM. Also CSM don't need flamers I would say. It would be better to make raptor flamer worth its high cost. I would say that a weapon costing so much (50/10) shouldn't lower the DPS of their unit once they are equipped that's why I would be for making raptor flamers DPS (not moral DPS though) upgradded by the HW upgrade.
I would add just a thought about plasma CSM :
I think that the problem in DC is that both the new things that chaos have are in T3 : DP and plasma. So one had to suck and guess which is it?
So I would be for nerfing chaos plasma to only 20-30% more DPS than the SM plasma, depending of the target. then I would make it a bit more expensive : 40/15 to 45/15. Finally I would make it available at T2.5 after that the machine pit is built.
I'll explain why :
1- SM get HB and plasma at T2, so it would be logical that CSM getting HBs at T.5 would get plasma at T2.5.
2- With the nerf to zerk tech chaos would have something to compensate this T2 nerf.
3- CSM with plasma would be something like eldar WS. A very good late T2 unit but that cannot go toe to toe against T3 units.
Of course this means that next patch brings back FoTM to a descent level what most of us hope.
4- chaos endgame could be more varied than all about plasma CSM.
We could for example :
- buff the DP
- add a bit HP to PSM (the 150 HP nerf is too much, like 50-80 HP back)
- make horrors able to reinforce in T3 with one of the PSM upgrades (maybe daemonic fire) : 2 expensive upgrades are bit too much for just one unit (maybe that a total of 30 less req for the 2 upgrades would be needed also).
- oblits : just scroll up a bit, I won't go back in this discussion again.
- BT as we all agree less life degeneration or better life regen in fight and a bit more DPS.
- some kind of buff to corruption (I like the life regen to chaos troops).
This an AND or OR list depending of balance of course.
Voila.
Last edited by tygereye; 15th Jan 07 at 1:11 PM.
Nerfing chaos plasma?! Blasphemy. We must stick with the themes! Chaos as a race does one thing well and thats killing infantry. Chaos can't really be sneaky, can't really be forceful, can't starve you to death, can shell you to death with artillery, can't obliterate multiple buildings quickly. The only thing that chaos does well is kill infantry.
When you consider a balance, you should think about where the item is placed and how it will be used. The plasma is tier 3. Tier 3! All the othe upgrade weapons are tier 1! In addition, it only does one thing well and thats kill infantry. Against vehicles and buildings, the CSM squad is better off spitting at them than using their plasmas. Its pitiful. Also here's the kicker that people don't realize. The accuracy of the CSM plasma is only 60 percent. Thats ridiculously low when you compare it to any other ranged unit. When you take accuracy and range into account, the CSM plasma is only maybe 10 percent better than the Heavy bolter at killing infantry (in some infantry catergories the HB is much better too). Look at this link as proof. Yet you want to nerf it? If you nerf it by even 10 percent, it will be no better than a Heavy bolter. I'm not kidding at all. Look at the data. HBs and Plasmas are within 10-15 percent of each other in almost every category. In some categories the HB is much much stronger as well. If you consider the range and accuracy of both weapons (that is the HB gets to shoot more accurately and get a bit more of a range headstart on units), you find that they are both about even. Even the DPS data in the game itself for the weapons shows that the upgraded HB and the plasma are about equal and yet one is tier 1 and the other is tier 3. HBs are listed as 212-240 about and the plasma is 220-240. If you consider where its placed, the Hb is the better weapon and you should try to avoid getting to tier 3 where it doesn't grant nearly as much of an advantage. The chaos plasma in tier 3 is mediocre.
You should also consider than typically in tier 3, to get to the infantry, you have to go through vehicles and chaos sucks at that. Remember that standing perfectly still, a plasma squad is only 60 percent accurate (this is a ridiculously low accuracy when you compare it to any other infantry unit that has been upgraded). Most other infantry units also outrange them. So lets see, my CSMs have to walk into heavy fire because they are always outranged by that point, hopefully won't get mangled by vehicles or get shelled down by artillery fire (both of which are very likely in tier 3, especially with chaos's lack of vehicular range and killing ability), won't completely lose morale, and then standing perfectly still will only hit 60 percent of the time? And you want to nerf the damage? LOL.
I think everyone here knows that the plasma is not an end all weapon. Like i said its only good against infantry and unless you're playing a stupid opponent with no detectors, the tier 3 CSM squad typically has to go through hell just to use them effectively. Thats why they shouldn't be nerfed.
Oblits don't need cc damaged. An oblit squad is never found more than 2 feet from a CSM plasma squad.
Is it just me or do defiler need some sort of Hp upgrade to be able to scale into tier 3? I played 10 1v1 games this morning as chaos and I found that my defilers were next to worthless. I'd rate them as the worst unit in the game (when you consider the price). Anyone think about going back to a 2 vehicle cap for defilers?
Also todays play also solidified something as true. If the sorcerer could summon a horror squad for free (or if the first horror was free), it would absolutely bring chaos like 70 percent into balance.
Tygereye:
Did you just suggest Warp Spiders can't go toe-to-toe with tier 3 infantry?
If I'm not mistaken isn't there a hidden buff to Chaos HB's when they get access to plasma that doubles their dps? Considering the range it has over Chaos plasma I really think Chaos HB's are a vialbe option late game, especially given their cloaking and the current state of FotM
No known buff. Once you get the HB upgrade thats it. Its funny how HB is tier 3 strength but in tier 1. It has about 10 percent less attacking power but 5 percent better accuracy and about 10 percent longer range. Some may consider it a better weapon. In any way, a nerf of chaos plasma is uncalled for.
Anyway, as of a month ago I've done a serious experiment to see if chaos really is as troubled as I thought. I played 180+ games exclusively as the chaos race, either 3v3, 1v1, or the occasional ffa. As of today, I'm finally disgusted with this game and am calling an end to the experiment. I won just a little over 50 percent of the game. These are the issues that bother me the most.
1)It is ridiculous to me how every chaos unit is weaker and more expensive than every space marine unit.
2)It is ridiculous to me how a horror squad and a defiler working against a dreadnought will still lose.
3)It is ridiculous to me how expensive chaos units are considering they aren't nearly as effective as counterparts in other races.
4)It is ridiculous to me how a space marine player can warp a commander with deepstrike and nuke a base, yet chaos gets the "corruption" spell as the equalizer.
5)It is ridiculous to me how chaos has no general all purpose AV option. Don't you dare say horror squad. Everyone here knows if you want to beat a chaos user just pull out a quick set of vehicles and the battle will be over.
6)Its ridiculous how difficult it is to harass with chaos units compared to other races (ie fleet of foot, 2 jumps with assault space marines, warp with necron, etc) forcing chaos to engage in tier 2 battles where it will lose
7)It is ridiculous to me how a good chaos player can typically only win if his opponent is a somewhat of a boob. Play someone of equal skill and you will surely lose.
For these reasons, I will wash my hands clean of Dawn of War Dark Crusade. The problems are just too deepseated and I'm not sure how to solve them all. If these issues are repaired in a patch, I will return my loyalties. Till then, I leave you with just this: Blood for the Blood god!
Last edited by SubakuGaara; 15th Jan 07 at 5:58 PM.
I here ya SubakuGaara, I haven’t played it much in the last few months. And I have very little drive to argue the same points repeatedly. Besides the fact I don't have time to play because of real life, I'll check back after the next patch.
Whenever that may be, I'm not expecting it anytime soon. I would hate to be the team (I really hope its a team) responsible for trying to fix DC. Because they would take, the responsibility if anything goes horribly wrong. And in an RTS as nerf/buff sensitive as DC, I wouldn't want that on my head.
Peace out,
"Skulls for the Skull Throne!"
Chaos Heavy Bolters get increased DPS when the weapon upgrade is researched. But Subaku brings up an excellent point. Chaos units cost way too F'ing much.
I'm a damn good Chaos Player with a lot of experience. Let me tell you, it is IMPOSSIBLE to out-econ other races due to how F'ing much Chaos units and upgrades cost. You want to go CSM against a foe because Berserkers against a pack of Tomb Spyders is suicide? Sucks to be you. Your Armory costs ridiculous amounts compared to that of SM's. You wanna go early Raptors? Haha, you dumb bastard. It'll cost you 50% more than a Vespid Rush and be about half as effective.
I play Chaos a lot, since I refuse to play IG until at least their rudimentary bugs are fixed. But issues with cost-effectiveness of Chaos units must be resolved. If I don't see at least some fixes on Chaos from Relic this patch, someone is getting flamed. ¬¬
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