My oppinion is that the 'taww will out mine them, the Sjet and the Mannan out fight them and the Nabaal out invent them
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#1
My oppinion is that the 'taww will out mine them, the Sjet and the Mannan out fight them and the Nabaal out invent them
In Soviet Russia, forums moderate YOU!
#2
Hiigaran.
I have the feeling that as stated by the developer diaries, that balanced fleets will rule the stars. Seeing as how they have also stated that the Hiigaran fleet is a generic fleet (ships generally can do different missions) where as Vaygr ar more specialized... which means you will have to build strike fleets to your advantage and enemy disadvantage.... should take some time to get exacting strategy to determine strengths and weakness.
early game: Vaygr advantage - heavy reliance on fast and powerful fighter/corvettes.
mid game: advantage hiigarans: heavy reliance on multipurpose frigates
Late Game: Even whoever better balances their fleet to deal with the strengths of the enemy.
Just my thoughts so far.
Jean-Luc
best bet i have is hiigaran... their ships/fleet are more resiliend and tougher than the Vaygr..
Only way to beat vaygr superiority is hit the big ships, then finish the gnats later.. Carriers and shipbuilders are prime targets.
I think that the advantages and disadvantages of both races are that the Vaygr have more specialised ships that do their job with ruthless efficiency while the hiigarans have more all-rounded ships
i cant remember where i got that from, but i think it was from the HW2 site....
they pretty much balance out, but it sounds like the Vagyr are going to have an adavantage early on. with their fighter swarms being difficult to counter by the Hiigarans any way, they could pull off an early game victory pretty easily. if the hiigarans can survive until mid to late game they have a good chance of getting revenge. i read somewhere that the Vagyr cap ships aren't particularly sturdy.
I think in early game Hiigaran can rush to flak frigate if the map is big enough, since the Vagyr won't find you that early, Once a few flak roll out of your mothership you are pretty set for a rush.
Cooker - IIRC the HW2 Website stated that flak frigates are not as effective against fighters, and that they are primarily a corvette killer
And about the weakness of capships...I can see it with the frigates...but those destroyers, carriers, and motherships - god those are huge...I don't see how they could be easy to destroy
I think that for the vaygr, it will be a rush to produce a well-rounded fleet with specialized ships (i.e., research as much of the tech tree as possible), and for the hiigarans, it will be a rush to produce as many numbers of well-rounded ships as they can (less research, more production).
#9
As many sources state, the Vagyr have the advantage in fighter and corvette tech, backed up by cap ships - thus they have speed and manueverability on their side, as well as specialization. Their ships are very good at what they're intended to do, but very bad at what they're not meant to. Their fleets consist mostly of fighters and corvettes, backed up by capital ship support. The Hiigarans, on the other hand, have the upper hand in their cap ships - the overall philosophy in their fleet is toughness and durability. Hiigaran ships will also be more generalized, meaning they'll be able to perform more flexibly and won't be either great nor horrible at any given task. Their fleets will have capital ships at the core, protected from attack by fighters and 'vettes.
What this all boils down to is that the Vagyr like the idea of "small, many, and specific" - their ships are cheap, easy to produce, and good at one certain job. In my mind, this pans out to being an extremely aggressive way of playing. Hiigaran ships will be "big, few, and well-rounded" - larger and tougher than Vagyr, but more expensive, and though not as good at performing any one task will be able to fill multiple roles. This to me seems more defensive than the Vagyr.
In multiplayer games, I can see the Vagyr being mostly early-game players, likely rushing and swarming before the Hiigarans can roll out their superior capital ships. However, if you've got a good player behind the Hiigarans who knows how to construct a solid defense against swarms, then they can pump out their big guns and smash the Vagyr down. I even predict with a degree of certainty that players who find themselves micromanaging a lot will prefer playing Vagyr, since it seems to me that coordinating large numbers of fighters (and making sure that they're doing what they're good at) involves a lot of micro'ing skills, and players who find themselves drawn to the Hiigaran side will likely be those who are better at coordinating Strike Groups - i.e. assuring that every capship has a fighter escort and every corvette swarm has a solid frigate group behind it.
Last edited by blackjack; 12th May 03 at 8:55 PM.
//_beej
/_"it isn't necessary to have something to believe in. it's only necessary to believe that somewhere there's something worthy of belief."
/_gully foyle - the stars my destination
beej hit the nail right on the head, in my eyes.
The Vaygr are cleary the more quantity > quality race, whereas the Hiigaran fleet consists of more balanced, and versatile ships. This makes me think that playing with the Hiigarans will be more of a micro-intensive experience, as opposed to the Vaygr, who I believe will be more micro-intensive in the areas of production and resourcing (macro).
#11
Say the Vagyr want to attack a Higgaran cap ship. They bring along some pulsar 'vetts to deal sub system damage and attack bombers to deal hull damage escorted by fighters. The Higgarans would probably bring more of a "Jack of All trades" fighters (sorta like the Acolyte) and bombers. Thus, if you take out some vagyr bombers your super cap is gonna take less hull damage but if you take out some higgaran fighters, then you take less alround damage.
The best example we know so far is the two Pulsar Corvettes
The Hiigaran one has a turreted pulsar and a light kinetic gun, so it's relatively effective against fighters as well as capital ships. The Vaygr one has two FIXED pulsars fowards, making it only really useful versus capital ships, but with higher overall firepower.
#13
How you base all this on basically ZERO knowledge of fleet capabalities is entirely beyond me.
You have a few ship names and that's it.
exactly, how can you guys actually discuss strategy when all you know is that vaygr have corv and fighter advantages and hiigaran have cap ship advantages. i didn't a know a few screenshots could turn into this much :P
well my post just takes the information that the developers have released so far.... Vavygr quick effective specialized ships, Hiigaran have more well rounded (jack of all trades, master of none). That these fleets are based on strike craft for the Vaygr and capships for Hiigaran. This would tend to play out that vaygr would be slightly better early game as its easier to build strike ships quickly then caps. (Unless this has changed) I re-read the posts here and no-one is stating any specific strategies just generalizations a little food for thought on the game.
Jean-Luc
You bring up a good point. While conventional wisdom suggests that the Vaygr would have an advantage early in the game or on small maps, Hiigaran and Vaygr strike craft may be well balanced against each other.Originally posted by Dawn Falcon
The best example we know so far is the two Pulsar Corvettes
The Hiigaran one has a turreted pulsar and a light kinetic gun, so it's relatively effective against fighters as well as capital ships. The Vaygr one has two FIXED pulsars fowards, making it only really useful versus capital ships, but with higher overall firepower.
The Vaygr strike craft advantage may only come into play against cap ships or later in the game when they've researched higher tech. On a large map, the Hiigaran player will probably move from strike craft to frigates to supercaps while the Vaygr may stick with strike craft the whole time.
-Ben
All this depends on the cost of the squads. If the 9 Vaygr fighters squad costs the same as the 5 Hiigaran fighters, this could mean an early advantage for the vaygr. But if the average price is equal per fighter and not per squad, they can be match early. The Hiigaran will arrive at their limit in fighter squads before the Vaygr. But they can at this state be able to build frigate. In an other hand the Vaygr at this state will have a lot more research to do about fighters than the Hiigaran. In the middle game, you will have more Vaygr fighters(corvets) than Hiigaran but Hiigaran will have more frigates that Vaygr. At the late game the number of capships and frigates could be about the same between the 2 races. Vaygr will have more fighters(even with about the same number of squads) but less resistant capship. I suppose here thatthe fighters squads and capships limits are the same for the two races. In fact that could change depending of the races and the players.
PS: this is only speculation about the fact that they can be well balanced at any stage of the game. Stategicaly I think this si better. But this is my own preferances.
to the right eyes, a screenshot is worth a thousand words...to the rest of us...
Still, id have to agree with many of the ideas here.
#19
So I just lost the massive post that I had written out here, but suffice it to say that the screenshots, as well as quotes from the developers diaries and interviews, tend to provide the basis for most of the speculation I've done in this thread.
I can rewrite the thing if anyone cares.
Essentially what it boils down to, dyn and bit, is that the preference for specified-role fighters and corvettes or jack-of-all-trades capships determines strategy a lot more than you might suspect. Fighters are cheaper and require less research, so if the Vagyr can produce better ones then they've got an early game advantage while resources are scarce and researching hasn't gotten very far. However, the Hiigarans have good, solid capital ships, which - if they can hold off Vagyr rushes long and well enough - give them a later game boost.
Last edited by blackjack; 13th May 03 at 6:11 PM.
Of course its all speculation thats what you do in a forum for a game that has yet to be released. or you could talk about the weather(its very rainy here in case you were wondering) the whole point of having forums prior to game release is so fans can discuss what they have seen/read and speculate in how that will effect the future game.
Jean-Luc
#21
Bringer I wouldn't f with dyn. He's what we call an "admin".
Anyway, dyn, you're both right and wrong. We don't have any concrete information about build times, research trees, speeds, etc. But we don't need those to speculate on basic, general strats. The quotes we have from the developers give us some general ideas as to what each fleet focuses on, and the screens do provide us with some data we can infer as well, and that's enough to make a few broad predictions at least.
Profanities and confrontation aside (and slightly off-topic) - am I the only one finding these statements glaringly contradictory:
"Each Vaygr craft is a highly specialized unit, designed to fulfill a single task with lethal efficiency"
"the resource harvesting abilities of their individual craft"
Perhaps I read the wrong things into this, but a combined fighter/resourcer sound like a monumentally stupid (or at least Somtaawish) idea. Efficiency-wise.
Bigger your fleet the more resources you collect.....i can this going horribly wrong!
To me its starting to sound like the Vagyr are your stereo typical 'locust' type bad guy swarm, flying through the galaxy consuming all in their path and so on.
If all of their ships are so specialised in all of their roles, and the race is generally an offensive one, then wont the vagyr have some serious trouble defending? In single player that mite not be a problem but i can see it being a big disadvantage in mp if a Hiigaran player gets off on a fast start.
No one wants to disprove you Dyn, because no one really cares.
1) IT'S JUST A GAME! (but a fantastic one, most likely)
2) They are doing a lot of new things, and changing some old things, but the most basic aspects of game balance still apply, which is the logic people are working from in this discussion. There has been some info on the general capabilities of ships on each side, and combined with the simple common sense of game balance, and the knowledge that Relic is a stickler for such balance, it's pretty easy to imagine what POSSIBLE strategies there might be.
3) The first step in developing effective strategies, is thinking up preliminaries and throwing them out. That's what we're doing here, for the most part. It IS a bit early to be doing it, but, who cares? Only anal retentive, obsessive-compulsive, schizophrenics, that's who.
4) The truth is, I actually did agree with you Dyn, to a certain extent.....but then you had to use that lame cop-out excuse, "You can't say I'm wrong because you can't disprove it." Even though it's true, it only means that you're unwilling to really discuss it, because you know you can't prove us wrong either.
You can't honestly believe Relic would make the game that unnecessarily complicated, can you? How blind does someone have to be to think that?
I have no problem with you or your opinion, but MY opinion is that you took it way too far.
And before I forget.....all you managed to prove (Since I know you're going to say that you DID prove us wrong, and if you DON'T say it, I know you thought it. People are the most predictable animals on the planet.) is that we are just speculating. So congrats on that achievement if you like. Unfortunately, no one has even once denied that it was all just hearsay and speculation, so I really can't see it as much of a victory for you.
:hi:
i can see where you discuss about differences, but how can you actually discuss strategical specs like you are. WOW YOU KNOW THAT VAYGR HAVE CORVS AND FIGHTERS AND HIIGARANS HAVE CAPITAL SHIP ADVANTAGES. gg reading articles, some of you just shine through the crowd.
unf
Dyntheos:
The problem is that there is just not much to discus right now. I guess it depends on what you want these forums to be. I personally enjoy a busy, active forum. I agree with you, though, that it does make "real" information and discussion hard to find.
Should speculation threads be moved to the ideas forum? Would this also include plot speculation?
I never see this thread as a strategic thread but more as a speculative thread. This status is clear only because the game is not released yet. But of course if it survives the release of the game, people searching for stategic information will be disappointed by the poor quatity of knowledge. Your position about this kind of threads is understandable.
Why not adding "speculation:" in front of the thread name. This can let people that want to exchange ideas to continue to do it without taking the risk to disappoint people by explaining clearly the purpose of the thread. This might be a way to please everyone.
#29
First of all, im not going to talk about strategy. Second, building doesn happen in the "fighters, corvettes, frigates, capiral ship, as it did in HW. You have slots, with these slots you can build certain types of hangers. i.e you might fo dirrectly to the Bc and ignore figters, vettes ect...but now your Bc will be vulnerable to fighters. Or you could build a frigate hangar and build several frigates, ion and assault. or a fighter bay and a vette bay, and make a fleet mainly out of strike craft.
Fighters CAN be more powefull than Capitals. Do not forget about sub-systems. it isn't a linear game ala HW1....
At that point you can hardly talk about "Strategy"...more fiction than anything else. i agree with Dynth ont his one,
#30
The game will be out soon enough.
Keep your pants on till then folks.
#31
Dyn man, there's no reason to get so worked up about this crap. This forum's for HW2 speculation - you made it that way. The tag on the index says so. I don't see why you have such a problem with people making some guesses. I mean yeah we could be totally wrong, but what's so about about throwing stuff out there and talking about it? Everyone here knows that there's no confirmed information and that just about everything is guesswork. What's the problem if we discuss what we think about HW2 strategy in the Homeworld 2 Discussion forum?
I respect you and any judgement that you might pass, you know that. I just can't see why you seem to hold a grudge against this thread.
Last edited by blackjack; 14th May 03 at 4:19 PM.
#32
With graces to His Dynness (us old noobs must still have homage for the elders) having seen the new screenies of the destroyer battle I will SPECULATE: Vaygr topedoes are exceedingly dangerous and have a fair rate of fire from the destroyer. I speculate this from the large number of torpedoes in the pictures and consider it against the speed demonstrated in the video. Now ASSUMING that this does not get changed in beta testing I will again say that this makes me think that a volley of torpedoes followed by strikecraft with another volley after, focused on a Hiigarian capship will be a tough tactic to beat, until we discover the Hiigarian point defense technology that shows up late in the tech tree.
Perhaps if we keep our speculation to this one thread for the time being, those of us who enjoy doing so will not draw the eire of the Magnus!?!
#33
I just thought of a great example. Take the 'taww Dread, it would loose vs a HC because the HC is speciallised. But a HC would be nibbled to death by fighters while the dread would have a good chance of winning.
i agree... utmostly agree with u nosurrender. like the example the best tho
Well if i read the history right, one of the Vagyr advantages is a racial predisposition to battle. After generations and generations of constant warfare your race tends to become specialized for it. Hiigaran are probably better researchers but Vagyr should outfly and out tactic them (Generally speaking).
#36
k thread trimmed. Bringer you are banned from posting further in it.
#37
Locking this as a docked thread on strat is now available
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