In need of help with Space Marine fluff...

[Croaxleigh]

Hi there, I'm Croaxleigh of the mod, "The Bloody March." I don't generally make it over to this part of the forums very often, but after trying to find the answer to my question on my own I decided I would turn it over to the experts.

Basically what I'm looking for is one of the most awe-inspiring or coolest things that could happen with a Space Marine chapter. So far I've considered things like having the commander be given a higher commission at the end (like being given the command of 2nd company if he was formerly in command of 3rd, or something like that), or maybe have the commander be gunned down valiantly in what seems to be the end of the story... but in the next mission (which would be kind of an epilogue) have them return in the form of a Dreadnought. A few other ideas have popped up as well, but I'm not sure if any of them would be "wow"-inspiring enough to merit the ending of the campaign.

So I guess the point of this thread is... if you were able to choose what you think would be the best Space Marine ending for a DoW mod campaign, what would it be? Thanks in advance for any help that y'all can give!

[fifth_horseman]

(like being given the command of 2nd company if he was formerly in command of 3rd, or something like that)

That's not much of a promotion. It's not much different from being moved from leading Squad 1A to leading Squad 1B.
Something of a promotion would be being promoted to leadership of 1st Company, for the sole reason of it being the Veteran Company or replacing the former Chapter Master after his death.

Another in-character thing would be committing such a great act of heroism that the Imperium would consider that Marine a saint (though that would really have to be something major).

Being gunned down doesn't sound like much of a heroic death. Dying in combat with a large number of enemies (whom he of course defeated before falling) or some super-duper enemy counterpart of himself would be.
A plausible (though horribly cliched) idea would be having that enemy seemingly slay the Commander, then start moving away... only to find themselved subject to a quite mortal wound from the blade of the dying Commander.
Of course, becoming a Dreadnought is an option afterwards, though that would be even more of a cliche (unless you really want to have that hero remain available for a possible continuation of the story).

[GothicHorror]

I think a less obvious promotion would be from the commander of say 2nd company to the commander of the 10th Company, this would effectively make your commander responsible for the long term future of the chapter, as if he messes up and gets neophytes killed, there wont be any to replace losses in the battle companies.

If he then went on to do a suicidal infiltrate mission and was horribly killed just before the overall marine victory, that could warrant him being interned into a Dreadnought for the continuation of your campaign

[Wraithguard Fan]

It depends on the Chapter's Beliefs, you have to make sure to make a custom chapter first and listen to reviews, then like ( retrieving a lost relic, finding lost records, hunt down past traitors etc. )


For end, well... maybe like this terminator on the space hulk stays behind and makes sure the melta charge blows it up? Hmm... if he's old enough, no more geneseed to collect but would have lost terminator armour...


Or maybe throwing himself at an incoming Demolisher cannon round to save his comrades so that the rest would survive to complete the objective?

[Croaxleigh]

Failing promotion or being Dreadnoughted (yeah, I know it's not a word... but when I thought of it I couldn't help but think of the play on "being knighted"), as I'm trying to avoid anything too cliched or predictable if possible, what else could make for a good ending? I'm wanting to find something that will do well story-wise, but that will also appeal to those who know the fluff (and who love the Space Marine fluff in general) so it would be something that makes them say, "Oh, I've always wanted to see that!" or "Wow! It's great that they've got that in here! I've always wanted to do that!" (or something along those lines.)

[Fish Of Doom]

well if the ending is for a campaign, then you could maybe do something a bit long that does not happen all at once, like most endings, but builds up during the whole campaign, like say a battle of the wills against a tzeentchian daemon or something, which ultimately results in saving an entire sector or some other heroic result.

winning a willpower battle againstmost daemons, let alone tzeentchian ones, is a nearly impossible feat in 40k, so usually it is not seen in the fluff, as far as i know, so make it an extended psychological fight, with little skirmishes all along the campaign, like the librarian has his mind invaded , the chaplain suspects him of heresy and tells the chapter master
, who shares it with the company captains, of which some want to burn him, others do not, etc, and depict the librarian's battle for his sanity, all on top of the already present fighting agains the enemy.

basically and before i ramble tany more, what i'm saying is make a heroic campaign instead of a clichéed normal campaign with a superheroic last minute one-man-army feat or chapter beats whole world alone moment.

[Croaxleigh]

Well, the thing is that this is for an alternate ending - kind of like in WA, when you have different endings depending on which race you beat the game with - but it's more along the lines of "if you go through and just beat the game then you get one ending, but if you do it this way (which is harder) then you get a different ending." It's not going to just be "your little squad against the world", but I want it to be something kind of big. It's something that the player is going to have to earn as they play the campaign, so I'm not wanting to just make it a cheesy campaign ending where they have the last stand and then go home to eat crumpets and drink Earl Grey tea. I want it to be both fluff-supported and something that the player might not be expecting, since it's basically a bonus to them for not just taking the easy way out in the campaign gameplay.

(What can I say... I grew up on video games in the 80's and 90's, and loved the games with alternate endings depending on how you beat them.)

[grimzod]

How about this:

Said marine has an epiphany during combat with a chaos marine or other agent of chaos and channels the spirit of the emperor. Through the emperors divine intervention the agent fo chaos is given absolution and slain. The marine survives the event and is heralded as a saint by his own chapter and other humans.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

In a discarded piece of fluff that I wrote for my personal chapter, the Chapter Master and his retinue stormed the bridge of a Chaos Battle Barge, and the Master fought a heavily "gifted" Chaos Lord who wielded a large and foul-looking hammer.

The Chaos Lord broke the Master's power sword and shattered the Master's left pauldron, but the Master wouldn't be denied; he launched himself at his enemy and with a superhuman effort wrestled the hammer away from his clawed hands. The Master then used it to break the Chaos Lord's back and smash his skull.

The Chapter Master held the weapon high and proclaimed the victory in His Glorious Name, and the servants of Chaos were cowed and fled from the advancing Marines. As the Chaos Lord expired at the Master's feet, the taint fell from the hammer, revealing a masterfully crafted Daemonhammer of obviously Imperial origin, that must've fallen in the Chaos' hands ages ago and was now liberated and restored. The Daemonhammer remained as the Chapter Master's personal weapon and became one of the Chapter's most treasured relics.

The fluff doesn't fit my background anymore (if I'll even finish writing it ever), so you can have it.

And don't tell me that it isn't possible to "liberate" a weapon from Chaos. The fabled Gauntlets of Ultramar were similarly ripped from the corpse of a champion of Fell Powers. If the Ultramarines can do that, anyone can.

[Croaxleigh]

Damar: Wow. That's... wow.

I'm not sure how that will fit into the story, but I'm going to run it by one of the other guys who's working on it with me to see what he thinks. We may end up using some variation of it (and will be sure to credit you with the idea if we do.)

Thanks everyone for the input given thus far... the end result may actually come from a amalgamation of several different ideas.

[Armor of Vaul]

You could have a Marine captain do something rediculously spectacular like slaying a daemon who claims that he knows the truth of the Emperor, or the leader-messiah of some heretic group that wants to 'wake up' the Empy, then at the end after he's slaughtered the bastards or whatnot these Custodes appear and congratulate him on his feat and then you sort of imply that he might become a Custodes (which we know goes against fluff, but would be a neat what if kind of thing)

[Tinweasel]

Don't a lot of Chapters get awarded their own worlds to preside over?

I could see that as being a suitably impressive reward, although more of a passive one. It's got animation potential, though... *cutscene to space with a nebula background* *camera pans sideways across a verdant world with clouds, green landmasses, etc.* Voiceover intones: "As reward for your purity and stalwart advancement of the Emperor's will, He has seen fit to grant your Chapter a new homeworld." "Let this planet from here forward forever be known as..." *text on screen displays "<insert name of Player here> Prime"*

Whee!

[Andkat]

Most Chapters retain initial possession or general presence/indirect authority over recruiting planet(s). but generally they do not need or desire to be awarded a novel planet for their deeds; generally, planetary management and Imperial territory management is the task of Imperial officials, not Space Marines.


Sufficient deeds could range from slaying an ancient foe or betrayer of the Chapter, the annihilation of the leader of an exceptionally large opposition (a multiple sector rebellion, for instance), a Daemon Prince, etc. Generally, the mere suppression and destruction of, say, a Traitor Guard force's leadership is not an exceptionally noteworthy feat for a Marine. Something exceptionally profound, calamatious, difficult, or consequential is to be requisite for major recognition and promotion.

[grimzod]

Well...one of the ultimate rewards for a Sm is the use fo their gene seed in a new Chapter. The process takes centuries but it is always happening, otherwise their woudl be no new chapters. Of course, he'd have to die.

[Andkat]

The rewards of the implantation of one's geneseed are merely figurative and valiance-inducing terms and vows; due to the inherent value of Space Marine geneseed, a fallen Astartes' progenoids will invariably be extracted from his fallen form, excluding instances of evident taint or severe dishonour. In addition, only one of the two Space Marine progenoids are extracted upon death; the other is removed after a specific period of maturing, and does not require the demise of the marine.

[cmstophe]

Have him defect to Chaos after a lengthy dialogue sequence with a sorcerer, and then show a hill, with him coming into view on it as a Daemon Prince.

[Ethrion]

Problem is with avoiding cliches is that its nigh on impossible to do because every cool ending has pretty much been done in multiple sources and has thus become a cliche.

Valiant deaths, sacrificing ones self for the good of others, defeating a daemon etc are all common endings. Ive been trying to think of one without it having been done before and I cant come up with one.

The only thing I can think of is a character leading an elite few against the enemy horde and despite the odds, leading them to victory and surviving it too. Maybe he inspired his brothers to achieve super human (i know SM already are but super human even for them) feats of endurance and actions. Where even other heros would have failed this one character succeeded. Parallels being drawn between him and the mightiest of historical figures (Horus and/or traits only ever seen in the Emperor himself). The fact that he has been likened to the Emperor/Horus leads him to be elevated to 'saint' status or something super huge anyway.

Just my thoughs. Still cliche but might as well go all out with the idea

[grimzod]

"The only thing I can think of is a character leading an elite few against the enemy horde and despite the odds, leading them to victory and surviving it too."

Cough...Cough...theres this Grey Knights book....


Looking for something new is fine but the great part of reading a story is not how many demons the character kills but knowing the person will sacrafice themselves for a brother, a fellow marine their emperor ... selflessly. Character development over body count is usually more entertaining.

"The rewards of the implantation of one's geneseed are merely figurative and valiance-inducing terms and vows; due to the inherent value of Space Marine geneseed, a fallen Astartes' progenoids will invariably be extracted from his fallen form, excluding instances of evident taint or severe dishonour. In addition, only one of the two Space Marine progenoids are extracted upon death; the other is removed after a specific period of maturing, and does not require the demise of the marine."

Please don't make (new chapter founding) sound like a 'walk in the park'. Its a bloody great honor. And the marine chapters have to give up progenoids as a tithe (mentioned in a few novels, can't remember to whom, so they don't get to recycle all those progenoids).

[FooF]

Personally, I believe the greatest challenge for any commander or group of people is not what horrors face them on the field of battle but rather the nightmares lurking within.

However, to not be cliche:

-No 2nd in Command will try to mutinee
-No flirting on the edge of Chaos but recovering at the last, and most desperate, moment
-No "the Commander is believed to be a traitor, but really isn't" storyline
-Commander is seriously injured in a meaningless battle and must sit out, guiding the troops but not actively participating
-Epic clash between Commander and arch-enemy and Commander loses. Troops, watching their leader slain must make a choice between fleeing or completing the mission. Unexpected heroes emerge when out of the shadow of their superior.

Cliche but cool:

- Deus Ex Machina. All seems lost and the Commander breaks down and admits that victory is impossible. However, the sqaud would rather die with honor than flee. As the outnumbered Marines charge to their deaths, a warp storm from the Emperor engulfs their enemies before a single bolter round can be fired. The Marines stare in awe as the Emperor himself saved them. No cheesy dialogue between the Emperor and Commander, though. Just a massive display of the Emperor's wrath and that's it.

- Commander attempts to have a "Champion" battle where the champion of both forces do battle to decide the outcome of the war. Commander is not allowed to participate and must choose a champion. Though there is an obvious choice (say, 2nd in command), Commander puts his faith in an up-and-coming guy with tons of potential but little experience. Turns out this guy is a Grey Knight, or something of the like, without anyone knowing. Wastes the other Champion like he was nothing and proceeds to wipe out the enemy commander as well, as everyone else looks on in wonder.

[Fish Of Doom]

i just thought of a variation on the deus ex machina story:

After a long, bloody campaign the chapter is about to be decimated in the final battle in some remote sector by an immensely powerful daemon who is slaughtering them, until only a few dozen or so marines remain against the daemon and his followers, and suddenly, more daemons appear and begin to tear the others to shreds. turns out that, due to ulterior motives having to do with furthering his plans, tzeentch himself destroyed the powerful daemon(some kind of minor god under khorne possibly, like Teturact under nurgle from The Bleeding Chalice), leaving the chapter astonished and powerless to intervene.

having all their chaplains slain, no one could whip them into a daemon-destroying frenzy, and, understanding how outmatched they were, they decided to retreat and regroup, until the situation calmed down a little.

when all the khornate daemons are destroyed, all the mariness hear a voice going like: i am the keeper of your secrets, the voice of tzeentch yadda yadda yadda and you just served to further my lord's designs, so i will spare your life, sons of the star child. and then it dissappears.

enraged and confused, the chapter master orders a retreat back into solid imperial ground, where they are lauded as heroes, but they want none of it, although not explaining why, and after gaining some neophytes from their homeworld, they rebuild some of their lost strength and embark on a holy crusade, to search for and destroy any tzeentchian activity they encounter, in order to restore the honor they felt was taken from them by the architect of fate

[fifth_horseman]

How about something also quite cliched but still fairly "wow" in its own right?
Note: without much knowledge about the storyline of your mod, I presume the bad guys are Chaos, otherwise this ending would make no sense whatsoever.

The Commander and his army are chasing down the enemy remnants, who attempt to escape through a Warp portal. The Commander is, however, hell-bent on not allowing the foe to escape and promptly enters the same portal.
Before rest of the army has a chance to follow him, the portal suddenly closes.
"<name & rank> was never seen again."
"Some of the Black Angels believe he survives in the Warp to this day, still battling the enemies of Mankind and that one day he will once again be returned to the ranks of his Chapter."
Then you can have some sort of photoshopped screenshot or actual drawing showing that same Commander amidst a sea of Chaos Marines and Daemons, his armor torn and buckled... but still fighting.

That would IMO be probably one of the most... should I say - heroic? ...endings possible.

[Wraithguard Fan]

How about this:

This squad of Terminators on a Space Hulk are sent to hopefully blow it up so that the forces of Chaos mixed with Tyranids ( Whee!) so that they won't infest a major hive city, which is also their Chapter's Recruiting world.

This guy's armour get breached and ( Yes the Mucranoid gland was damaged somehow too in the middle of the fighting ) volunteers to stay behind to make sure that the big melta charge blows.

The hulk blows up and the Armour ( Though really seriously damaged ) miraculously survives and the guy inside obviously dead, and from the helmet, the vox record and the vid log shows that he protected the melta charge from overwhelming enemies, no matter where he turns, all he sees are enemies, his storm bolter runs outta ammo, his powerfist is ripped off, and he kicks and roars, still chanting prayers. Claws everywhere, continuous barrage of flames...

And when the countdown goes to 00:17, he is overwhelmed, but with unnatrually determined will and strength ( For a Terminator ), he manages to get up from the stampede and lunges his body at the charge, covering it, then statics and all blacks out as it reaches 00:00:02, a split second before that, with his last ounce of strength, he roars"FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!!!!!!!!!"...

Easter Egg: ( A huge empty barrel of Fenrisian Ale is disguised as the rally marker, which is around 10m from where the charge is )

[Andkat]

Please don't make (new chapter founding) sound like a 'walk in the park'. Its a bloody great honor. And the marine chapters have to give up progenoids as a tithe (mentioned in a few novels, can't remember to whom, so they don't get to recycle all those progenoids).

I have no idea what you are referring to in pertinence to my statements. A previous poster stated that the greatest a honour a Marine could receive is for his progenoids to be harvested and the geneseed contained within utilized in the following generations of Marines; however, I responded in turn that Progenoids, due to their incredible value to the Chapter, are almost always harvested whenever possible, as opposed to being a select act that only a few Marines where blessed with.

[Croaxleigh]

Wow... these are all some really great ideas. I suddenly have the urge to sketch up ideas for future mod projects, just so that when I get to work on 'em I'll already have endings ready and waiting. *laughs*

[devmapillbomb]

How about something diifferent instead of the usal heroics.

I got it.

A captain found a cult in a hive planet. Him, his company and the PDF on the planet got and hunt this cult. Just when most people give up the captian and his command squad get captured by the cult. The captian tricked the leader but the leader still cruptted the planet. The next thing the captain knows he is in one of the black ships of the Inquisition and is put on metal tharapy.

This would be perity fun to make missions for too.

[grimzod]

Ah. I was referring to the founding of a chapter in my first post on the subject, not the taking of the geneseed...so we are not disagreeing my words were simply not clear. Sorry if I was gruff.

[Ethrion]

"The only thing I can think of is a character leading an elite few against the enemy horde and despite the odds, leading them to victory and surviving it too."

Cough...Cough...theres this Grey Knights book....

My point prooved then. Cliches at every turn. Cant avoid them really.

[FerociousBeast]

To really be able to help you, Croaxleigh, it would help to know something more about the story as it already is. I firmly believe that the most successful ending will come from the story rather than merely some tacked on bit of generic heroism.

That said, a quite Warhammer-esque way to end your story would be to have a very dark twist at the end. The best 40k stories don't end happy. Perhaps reveal a kernel of corruption within your main character, or have the main enemy defeated and slain, only to reveal in an epilogue the main "hero" either occupying the the enemy's position or displaying disturbingly similar characteristics.

By way of example, two stories I once planned on writing ended on this kind of note. In one, an Inquisitor discovers that the leader of a cult dedicated to the salvation of the Emperor through the destruction of Terra (and thus his body) is in fact an ex-Inquisitor himself, long presumed dead. In the inevitable confrontation at the end, the ex-Inq argues quite convincingly that the Emperor and Terra must be destroyed, but the loyal Inq finally shakes off his rhetoric and kills him. ...But (dum dum dummmm) in the epilogue, a warrior or fellow Inquisitor or someone who was working with the Inq and present at the ex-Inq's death learns that the Inq has hijacked an Exterminatus-capable battleship and plotted a course for Earth.

In the other, a short story, a squad of Space Marines led by a chaplain face off and defeat a massive horde of Khornate cultists. Before executing him, the chaplain interrogates the defeated cultist leader who gushes about Khorne's need for skulls-- "whether mine or yours, it doesn't matter which." The chaplain states that Khorne will get neither his own nor the cultist's skull that day, then crushes his head under his boot. After this moral victory, however, the chaplain leads his marines in a battle-chant that should remind the reader disturbingly of the old Khorne standard, "Maim, Kill, Burn!" before charging back into the battle as the curtain falls.

An advantage of doing this kind of dark twist at the end is that not only is it very Warhammery, but it can also leave the door wide open for some kind of sequel or follow-up.

[Croaxleigh]

Actually, there are a few "dark bits" planned as potential ending points as well. Kind of like how there were different endings depending on which race you beat the game with in WA, there are going to be points where the player gets to make decisions that will affect the game ending. As an example, one possible ending will result in the "hero" and his squad ultimately losing the battle, and Chaos sweeping over the planet completely... under the lead of another game character from the hero's chapter.

The idea is to make things very open-ended, so that if you play things out one way then you'll get one ending, and if you do it another then you'll get a different ending. Then if you do certain things and qualify for it, you'll get the "special" secret ending.

[fifth_horseman]

Sounds like a great mod. Too sad I don't have WA yet...