Ork pop cap should be 150 (Facts, figures, and argument provided)

[FireStorm9000]

First of all, orks are an infantry race. Looted tanks are wannabe Leman Russ and cost same cap (and their innaccurracy makes them useless in conjunction with ork infantry), Ork kans aren't as good as dreads and cost same cap, and the squiggoth, while awesome, is a unique unit.

Now, comparing the numbers of basic orks I can field with the number of basic space marines, I see that I will hit the space marine cap and the ork cap with the same number of shootas vs. space marines, i.e. 8 marines and a sergeant vs. 8 shootas and a nob. 8 shootas and a nob don't match up to 8 marines and a sergeant, unless you're committed to melee (which can't happen for every ork vs. every marine for the practical problems with mass melee).

Additionally, ork heroes and leaders pull away from the cap, shortening it even further.

So, basicly stated, the space marines can field just as many infantry as orks using permanent upgrades rather than fragile buildings, and then a few extra leaders, whilst having somewhat more effective infantry and considerably more effective vehicles.

A larger ork cap would be automaticly limited by the need to build and protect even more Waaagh! banners to make it possible. But now you would be able to field a 16 unit slugga/shoota boy squad for every 9 marine tact squad a space marine could field.

Nobs in a squad (not leaders) might should be upped to 3 cap, I dunno.

A further balancing act would be to limit heavy weapons available to an ork squad according to the number of orks in a squad, so said orks can't lay out the theoretical 105 rokkits or big shootas that would be possible, or even the 75 that are possible right now.

[Zallis]

I don't know if you're posting in the right forum, given the layout and format of your arguements.

We have been over this arguement before, and surmised a higher pop cap wouldn't be very useful for orks, in WA anyways.

As to that thing about heavy weapons, they dont seem to be all that effective anyways, so i supposed that 75 isn't harmful. Though, I'd like to metion a full squad of shoota boyz and a nob leader is 10 pop (1 pop for each shoota, 2 for the leader). So, currently, you can field 10 full squads of shoota boyz, including nob leaders. And they'd only have 30 big shootas in total, as 1 squad can only have 3. Compare that to the 50 total heavy weapons that SM could potentially field, especially considering the big shoota is nowhere near as effective as the heavy bolter.

If your arguements are being made for DC, then ignore everything I just said, as I don't currently own DC.

[W0lf]

120 yes. 150 no.

[kornuletz]

150 would be 50% more than now! Let us not jump overboard.

I think 115 would suffice (notice that the last banner would add 10 pop cap and be costefficient, unlike now), or maybe maximum 125.

[FireStorm9000]

Well, the current state of ork ability seems to stem from the combined actions of very individualistic units. Nobz, MANZ, Warboss, BM, Squiggoth, Dok...and with DC the flash gitz. An army of some very cool units, it seems to main challenge is tying them together into a cohesive strategy, and has nothing to do with pop cap.

Anyway, to make use of the "green wave" as an actual combat tactic (Using sluggas) you'd need to field a much larger army than the enemy. This is only an issue in Dark Crusade, where such a tactic is an option, so I feel now that my post is largely irrelevant here. Sorry for the wasted time.

And 150 would be too much. 120 would be equivalent to 24 for any other race, so maybe it's an idea.

[Grov]

It definatly needs increased.

Doesn't feel like orks at all, with a green tide of waaaggh as you have the same number of units, mostly weaker than other races.

The manz and big mek shouldn't cost cap.

[philgreg]

They address this issue in DC - without increasing ork cap. After an upgrade in T3, the orks get "free sluggs squads" meaning they cost no req to buy, but do cost to reinforce. This allows a balanced ork wave army

[Grov]

I disagree.

At Tier 4, sluggas are as useful as a butter knife. They still cost 4 to build, and they cost to reinforce, there a waste of time.

[Zallis]

Grov, the point of the Sluggas is to send them off to die. Sure, they're as useful as butter knives, but thats the point. Burry people in butter knives. Meanwhile, your stronger units, like flash gitz and nobz, destroy the enemy. And if the enemy targets those stronger units, the sluggas will tie them up, though highly unlikely they'll kill them. However, that is DC, not WA or DoW, so that point is somewhat moot in this case.

[daven1986]

in DC i have never used the free sluggas they are useless and take up too much pop cap for a full squad. i think it needs to be 120 or 125 max pop cap.

[Embrance]

Nah,I disagree. Free Sluggaz are useful.I made 2 ork camps and produced them all the time.My opponent was getting back and from time to time i sent a Dok in,and bombed them.Then about 5 of my sluggaz got near the enemy base(passing al the defences and enemies).I reinforced them and atacked.You can imagine what happened next,My enemy was SM.

[your_neighbour]

150.. That's too crazy, I don't think it's a nice idea

I would agree with 120 Ork pop in WA and vanilla, but not in Dark Crusade, in Dark Crusade sluggas can become free with a research, 20 more is just uber pwnage.

Nah,I disagree. Free Sluggaz are useful.I made 2 ork camps and produced them all the time.My opponent was getting back and from time to time i sent a Dok in,and bombed them.Then about 5 of my sluggaz got near the enemy base(passing al the defences and enemies).I reinforced them and atacked.You can imagine what happened next,My enemy was SM.

Eh this is Winter Assult/Vanilla DoW balance thread, cannot compare with DC