[DC]Terminators....

[HarmlessPenguin]

Hm, after reading SirNick's numbers it kind of made me wonder about the actual usefulness of the Terminators:

Mmmkay now. Here's some numbers for comparison to things which are not Kasrkins. Pure numbercraft, but still valid.

Important Basic Facts: Kasrkin Hellgun range is 40. This is higher than anything else in the game that's not on a vehicle, Tau, or not an IG Grenade Launcher.

Flash Gitz and Heavy Bolters come close at 35 range, and Tau Fire Warriors are also at 40 range post-Improved Power Source, 50 range after Kauyon range improvement. Tau Bodyguards do 70 range.

The Frag Grenade does ~100-175 damage to infantry in a radius of 6.5, which is inbetween a Basilisk round and an Earthshaker Round. Recharges in 30 seconds.

Anyhoo.

******
A critical component of Kasrkin usage involves Execute.

Execute may or may not be bugged at the moment - there's talk that it may override the Priest bonus or that it may even affect the whole squad's weapons, not just the Hellguns. These figures use the intended idea of just buffing Hellguns and Priests stacking on top of that.
******

******
Basic Kasrkin damage is rather underwhelming. It's 12 DPS to heavy_high, 16/17 to heavy_med and infantry_high, and 19 to infantry_med.

With Execute, though, those DPS values double plus change -- 25 to heavy_high and 33 to heavy_med. This is approaching competitive levels.

Add a Priest and fun times begin - 50 DPS to heavy_med and ~38 to heavy_high.

Kasrkin Plasma Guns do meh damage base. When Specialization and Priests are added, they hit 60 DPS to heavy_med and 48 DPS to heavy_high apiece.

Sergeant does about 50% more base damage with his Hellgun. 33 to heavy_med and 26 to heavy_high with Priest bonus.

So, let's add things up.

9 Kasrkins alone, unbuffed -- 108 DPS to heavy_high, 144 to heavy_med.

9 Kasrkins with Execute -- 225 DPS to heavy_high, 307-ish to heavy_med

9 Kasrkins with Execute / Priest (assuming it works as intended) -- ~347 DPS to heavy_high, ~450 to heavy_med.

9 Kasrkins with Sergeant, Priest, Execute, 4 have Plasma Guns with Specialization -- 415-odd DPS to heavy_high, 522-odd DPS to heavy_med.
******

That's a lot of effort for some decently impressive damage. In theory.

Let's compare.

1 squad Flash Gitz - 320 DPS to heavy_high, 360 DPS to heavy_med, range 35

1 squad super-buffed Warp Spiders + Exarch - ~285 DPS to heavy_high, ~342 DPS to heavy_med, range 25

SM Tactical HB squads do 250 DPS from the HBs.
CSM HB Squads do 224 DPS from their HBs, 280-320 DPS with Berzerk Fury.
CSM Plasma Squads do 270-odd DPS from Plasma, nearly 390 DPS with Berzerk Fury to heavy_med.

So, with one Kasrkin squad, lots of upgrades, and a Priest and Executing Commisar, you'll get about 1.5x more firepower than a single squad of ranged specialists in Tier 3 and a lot more range.

Kasrkin damage is really variable though - they've got 50% accuracy and fire once per second, and with Execute their maximum damage is through the roof, so a few lucky shots will really make a big difference. Unlike other ranged troops whose DPS is pretty close to actual damage per hit, Kasrkin average damage per hit is basically taking their DPS and multiplying by x2, then another 50% or so to see the max damage per shot.

Combined with the Frag Grenade O' Doom making a nice head start, that is another factor.

But, yeah, 9 unupgraded Kasrkins just with Execute match a HB squad in terms of sheer expected firepower.

Problem is, there's a hell of a lot more HB squads, Warp Spiders, and Flash Gitz than Kasrkins.

But, still, there's some comparison numbers for you. With that kind of carnage, just imagine the fun to be had from just two Kasrkin squads alone -- twice the Frags O' Doom, twice the Hellguns, only one Execute to turn them into gods.

Figured I'd throw that out to whomever's interested.

And a direct comparison between Termies with AC and a fully upgraded HB squad, for this comparison I'm applying a +25% dps bonus to the base tac bolter and a +35% dps increase to the bolters and that the Sgt. has a plasma pistol. To my knowledge, Termies do not benefit from any of the general upgrades:

Terminator squad of 8 can have 2 Autocannons with a range of 40 and each termie has 998 health of heavy_high (Edit: 7984 of heavy_high armor total) . Total cost: 630 req 260 power

A HB squad of 8 + Sgt. can have 5 HB's with a range of 35 and each tac has 488 health and the Sgt. has 975 health all of heavy_med (Edit: 4879 of heavy_med armor total). Total cost: 665 req 50 power

The termie AC's deal 130 dps vs heavy_high and 160 dps vs heavy_med and the entire squad deals 283 dps to heavy_high and 360 dps total to heavy_med dps at a range 25.

The HB's deal and only deal 216 dps to heavy_high and 244 dps to heavy_med and the entire squad does 275 dps to heavy_high and 309 at range 25.

and the break down vs other units are:
Pros:
They can be DS'ed
They have heavy_high armor and 1k health and can have an apoth attached for further survivability.
They can be upgraded to have a teleport with a high charge up time.

Cons:
They move as slowly as NW's
They take up 3 pop vs the 2 pop of most other units

So my question regarding Termies is if the extra surviability and slight dps boost is really worth the extra power and pop cap when they're supposed to be filling the role of range specialists with the AC upgrades?. Opinions?

[ImmortalChaos]

Try crispy-termies with flamers- Sure, theres less range and direct firepower, but with their sheer massive AoE, they can hit a huge chunk of units and mulitply their damage many times over. Oh, that and they fire on the move and break morale.

[HarmlessPenguin]

hm, true enough I suppose...though honestly I feel like I'm building an entire squad of Termies to be a meat shield for their heavy weapons =P; it'd be nice if the Heavy Weapons upgrade allowed them to use 3 or even 4 HW's up from 2, oh well. I suppose I'm just a bit disappointed with them after a team match in which a Necron army of NW's just walked right past a squad w/o HW's and kept on walking to attack the base and the Termies couldn't do anything once they walked past due to FotM =P; I suppose HW's are the only things that really make them something that can't be ignored...

[ImmortalChaos]

T'is not the termies being incompetent, it's the necron warriors having 1k health for free (and approximately marine cost for reinforcements )

[Energizer Bunny]

Try crispy-termies with flamers- Sure, theres less range and direct firepower, but with their sheer massive AoE, they can hit a huge chunk of units and mulitply their damage many times over. Oh, that and they fire on the move and break morale

]

What he said. Terminator Flamer is right up there as the most underated weapon in the game. Don't even consider the autocannon.

Are termies UP? Possibly, but I really don't think you can balance them based on NW, which at the moment are huge imbas. In the context of other units, I think they're probably ok.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

There is nothing wrong with basic terminator stormbolters. The heavies are just better.

[HarmlessPenguin]

hm, alright I suppose it won't be quite so bad once FotM is improved a bit anyway so that should be enough of a buff and I'm just annoyed with that one instance

[KotCR]

Termies without Heavy Flamers are next to useless.

They are extremely slow and so can be tied up by any half-competant opponent in melee - and they suck in melee (Cultists are their superior I believe - I guess the Power Fists are just for show :hmm.

Their ranged damage would be respectable, were it not for the fact that if they want to be able to fire they need to move constantly (as any unit can very easily tie them up in melee due to their sluggish speed), which means they cannot focus fire and they operate constantly with a poor accuracy (like most units on the move - difference is these guys will always be stuck moving without stopping for a second, to avoid getting tied up) that makes their damage output pitiful.

If you want your Terminators to do any damage against a half-competant opponent, you need to give them the Heavy Flamers for the vastly superior on the move accuracy.

IMO, ranged Terminators (without Flamers) are to T3 what the Force Commander is to T1. A solid meat-shield, and not much more. At least they are not as expensive as he is in T1...but then again at least he becomes useful later on in the game...the Termies get no such honour.

[GRIM Ripper]

but then consider what race you find terminators... a race which already has MASSIVE firepower in T2. a solid meat shield is exactly what they are missing until terminators (and its not like their damage is crap either).

[KotCR]

They should be more than just a meatshield. Particularly seems they are capped at one. People would be pretty peeved if Kasrkin/Ogryns/Gitz/PSM were just a meatshield. I won't go on about Oblits though lol.

Anyway, the problem isn't with Terminators, it's more to do with the awful AotM situation at the momment. Fix that and maybe I'd consider bringing them over Tacticals in more than just games I've already won.

At least on the plus side it does currently give you one more DS-able squad.

[HarmlessPenguin]

Termies seem to deal 9 dps to heavy_med in melee....then again, Oblits only deal 13, so I guess powerfists really are for show =P

[GRIM Ripper]

yeah but 30+ ranged dps each isnt just for show and definately hurts... plus 70-80dps ACs with 40 range are just brutal. they ARE good meat shields yes, but that doesnt mean thats all they can do. the only buff id want to see is yes, more acc on the move considering they are slow.

i just think people (no one in particular btw) have their own personal expectations of so many units and when they dont play exactly how they want them to, theyre "UPed." if its not "bigger, stronger, more HPs, more damage" then its suddenly UPed even if it fills a role gap in that race -- instead of utilizing that unit to the strength that they already possess (terms being a frontline unit, soaking fire/adding some moderate support fire while tacs dish it out for ex), people keep trying to use it like they want to and then complain when its underperforming -- i thought the defiler in WA was a perfect example of this, and the necron wraith is probably another.

[Snake1311]

Teleport means you can keep your ranged termies out of CC for most of the time
plus HFlamers rule
AT still > normal termies, but consider this:some players and races will not have (tough enough) tie up units to CC the termies - like an eldar player with WS or tau on the montka path (no, kroot w/o the upgrade are NOT tough enough in any way possible)

[HarmlessPenguin]

I never really considered the Termies underpowered, I just hadn't realized how badly the FotM penalty effected them until I saw them unable to catch up to NW's and thus being completely ineffective =P

[Energizer Bunny]

Teleport means you can keep your ranged termies out of CC for most of the time

Nope. 1 shot, short range, long cooldown, and long time to actually happen. Definately not a viable option to keep them out of CC.

[Snake1311]

Im talking about teleporting in case theyre in the middle of a melee. they should be able to shoot stray tie-up squads down on their own before said squads get to them, and thats exactly what happens most of the time. Dont forget they come via DS so they will be positioned exactly where you want them, far from CC

[Jay_Davis]

Regular termies have been pretty weak for a long time time. The fire on the move penalty just makes it official. The flamers are better than nothing (but a tac squad with all flamers is better for less cap). I tend to use the terminators as an escort for my librarian, letting him drop in with them and use his spells without getting wasted immediately, any other damage they do is a bonus.

[Ragnarok]

Out of curiosity, weren't termies a lot better in CC back in the original DoW? I seem to atleast remember the number displayed for their CC damage being a heck of a lot higher atleast

[HarmlessPenguin]

I labbed it and it seems the teleport has a 5 second charge up time and a 5 second 'stun' duration during both of which the Termies are unable to move or attack; it seems best suited for assaulting a base or SP/Crit/Relic rather than getting away from or into melee with other units; I think AT's are the only melee specialists that can't cover 40 range in 5 seconds =P.

Edit: this is barring some terrain feature, such as mountains or water or something

[GRIM Ripper]

actually, ranged terminators (and oblits) shoot while in their teleporting animation, they just have no animation for it.

[HarmlessPenguin]

hm, really? I was labbing with AT's so that may have been it, but the AT's definately stop melee'ing

yep, so they do; I remembered that they used to in DoW and WA, but when I labbed with the AT's and they didn't I just figured they changed the coding, hm, guess not...makes me wonder if it just disables melee dmg and if so, could Termies shoot while in melee while teleporting away? I don't have a reliable of labbing that though

[Unstable[7]]

Personally, I have problems of actually seeing myself use CC -terminators against other CC experts, such as FO, Berserkers, Nobs, Banshees and likewise.
They are just not able to handle it, in order for they to work you need ASM with them aswell and they are just not viable options in tier3.5 as the cost of having them gunned down is to great compared to what impact they might have on the enemy.
And without additional melee terminators really don't do much, they will morale break against FO, deal minimum damage and will have to fall back whilst the other SM units deal with the fighting.

Though, they are superior against vehicles and buildings. If the fighting have gone to the stage where I can afford the terminators without being forced to limit myself in other areas such as upgrades, vehicles, HW for tactical squads. I will probibly get one troop of terminators, and when the fighting start I'm most likely to drop them inside the opponents base instead of where there might be melee combat, they just make more difference hurting his econ and structures, rather than his units.

[Spinefarm]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention this on the boards, about the "stun" durations. At least with oblits, after you port, they actually start shooting right away, just without the animations. I'm guessing it's with the autocannons. It's easy to test, just click on something to shoot. Though they do it by theirselves as well. It's easy to check out by porting next to a gen. Never tried it with termies though, I don't play SM.

[nemarsde]

Assault Cannons just don't work well in Terminator squads, in my experience. Too often the whole squad will stop when it gets within AC range of the target, so you only have the two ACs firing and all those Storm Bolters doing nothing. The Heavy Flamer has the same range as the Storm Bolters, so you don't have this problem.

Nowadays I use my Terminator squad to babysit my Tac squads. (If I have a Land Raider to transport them, even better.) So while my Assault Terminators and heroes are meleeing, and my Tac squads are shooting at long range with heavy weapons, my Terminator squad is nearby.

Any enemy units that try to cut off my melee units by attacking my ranged units, they'll either target the Terminators, leaving my Tac squads to continue doing damage where it's most needed, or if they do attack my Tac squads, the Terminators are in range to do damage.

Not the role most players probably envisage for their Terminators, but currently one they're most effective at, imo.

[KotCR]

Out of curiosity, weren't termies a lot better in CC back in the original DoW?

Yup, they were. Pretty damn formidible in melee in the original DoW actually (even if they did take 4 cap). That's because Relic tried to be fluffy in the original DoW.

Though, when it came to WA they changed their mind and decided to make them totally suck in melee instead.

Teleport means you can keep your ranged termies out of CC for most of the time

No it doesn't.

but consider this:some players and races will not have (tough enough) tie up units to CC the termies

What? Termies are so poor in CC that almost any unit is tough enough to tie them up in melee. Covering the distance is the only problem, which there's plenty of easy solutions for (Grenades, Transports, Jump Packs, even FoF). Heck, as far as Eldar are concerned, for example, it's probably a good use for the Guardian squad you are keeping around in T3 just because it has a detector, with auto-reinforce on that squad won't be going down fast at all.

You just need to watch for the tie-up squad to be focus fired on by the rest of his troops. But, as always, if that's happening they are not shooting your other units.

In a way I suppose it's fair, SM can completely shut-down a unit with their Assault Termie squad, so, to make things even, SM also have a squad that is practically by default always shut down - ranged Terminators .

Seriously, until FotM is changed, shooty Terminators just aren't good against any half-competant opponent.

[War-Reborn]

Hm, after reading SirNick's numbers it kind of made me wonder about the actual usefulness of the Terminators:



And a direct comparison between Termies with AC and a fully upgraded HB squad, for this comparison I'm applying a +25% dps bonus to the base tac bolter and a +35% dps increase to the bolters and that the Sgt. has a plasma pistol. To my knowledge, Termies do not benefit from any of the general upgrades:

Terminator squad of 8 can have 2 Autocannons with a range of 40 and each termie has 998 health of heavy_high (Edit: 7984 of heavy_high armor total) . Total cost: 480 req 280 power

A HB squad of 8 + Sgt. can have 5 HB's with a range of 35 and each tac has 488 health and the Sgt. has 975 health all of heavy_med (Edit: 4879 of heavy_med armor total). Total cost: 565 req 50 power

The termie AC's deal 130 dps vs heavy_high and 160 dps vs heavy_med and the entire squad deals 283 dps to heavy_high and 360 dps total to heavy_med dps at a range 25.

The HB's deal and only deal 216 dps to heavy_high and 244 dps to heavy_med and the entire squad does 275 dps to heavy_high and 309 at range 25.

and the break down vs other units are:
Pros:
They can be DS'ed
They have heavy_high armor and 1k health and can have an apoth attached for further survivability.
They can be upgraded to have a teleport with a high charge up time.

Cons:
They move as slowly as NW's
They take up 3 pop vs the 2 pop of most other units

So my question regarding Termies is if the extra surviability and slight dps boost is really worth the extra power and pop cap when they're supposed to be filling the role of range specialists with the AC upgrades?. Opinions?

As an IG player, i've played all races a fair bit to be honest, but you use karksin quite a bit in your post, with referance to termies i tell you now i would swap that squad and the the ogrens, even with commanders attached, for SM termie squads any day of the week, there so much more useful, an need minimal fussing about , the only micro you got to do is postional micro, were to deploy teleport etc (which is strategic an fun), none of the endless attach, dettach, reattaching commander to get those bonuses going as long as possible, which is fussy micro, not fun an hugely complicated to do in a big battle, which will usally comprise several sqauds so the overall benefit isn't that great either

[HarmlessPenguin]

Yeah...hm, any chance of Termies being able to get in Rhinos again?; that'd help with them keeping up with the army and getting out of AoE attacks (Skyray missile barrages...) =P

Edit: Yes I know they can get in a LR, but those things are so large and clunky I rarely have them at the front of my lines, which is apparently where the Termies need to be to be a damage soak...

[Energizer Bunny]

You may be interested in the following:

Terminator Power Fist
Inf HH 7.3
Inf HM 9.1
Inf H 7.3
Inf M 5.2
Inf L 8.4

Tac Seargent Power Fist
Inf HH 41
Inf HM 53.2
Inf H 60.7
Inf M 54.7
Inf L 72.3

Can I get a LOL!

If you want a real laugh, check this out

Tactical Knife (yes KNIFE!)
Inf HH 9.2
Inf HM 9.4
Inf H 9.1
Inf M 9.4
Inf L 12.9

:gnight:

[Durandal]

LOL

seriously those termies powerfists are screwed up. a whole squad of them should be able to annhililate a good variety of opponent or hold their own vs even better CC specialists until they get some support, hell they're TERMINATORS not PAPER-ATORS.

[CorsairX]

cc needs a boost at least a little boost

but as for the rest, i think it is ok
why? becouse if we look at the bigger picture sm can have 10 deep striking hb squads which are a little worse then terminators as you pointed out

so you can have 10 semi-terminator squads

if you buy terminators you pay for: uber health boost, a little more damage, the ability to teleport to safety

the health boost as you pointed out allows your other mini-terminators to pwn the enemy

sm are a good at everything but far from specialisation this is why they have landraider which is not an uber killer
this is why sm squads can be adapted to be good at any task
(predator was not all-lascannon before WA but could be upgraded)

besides terminators are just space marines in drednought like armor not some kind of nemesis like there name would suggest


p.s. if they would have uber DPS with the current armor people would start to scream imba
this is why gitz are very low health but high damage

[Slow_Runner]

It is preferable that one unit does not excel in both ranged combat and CC. Sure you could give Terminators sergeant level power fists, but then they'd be killing everything, including the things sent to tie them up.

Having said that, termie powerfists should be a little better than tac knives.

[HarmlessPenguin]

Yeah, I realize all those points Corsair, I think I'm just annoyed about the FotM and Necrons walking right by them =P like I said, I think I'd be happy if they could get in Rhinos again =P

[KotCR]

As an IG player, i've played all races a fair bit to be honest, but you use karksin quite a bit in your post, with referance to termies i tell you now i would swap that squad and the the ogrens, even with commanders attached

You know I've also played all the races a fair bit (except Tau :hmm, and this statement is rather foolish, TBH. You'd swap your attached commanders too? You've got to be kidding me.

I would take Kasrkin any day of the week right now over Terminators (and definetly if they came with Priests or Commissars!), because Kasrkin are fast enough to actually get to do what they are good at - shoot. Their Fragerizers are also easily as good (if not better than) teleport.

Sorry, but until FotM is fixed SM Terminators are just plain bad, and it'd be rather silly to prefer them over any of the other T3 ranged specialists.

besides terminators are just space marines in drednought like armor not some kind of nemesis like there name would suggest

Well, Veteran Space Marines with centuries of experience and some of the Imperium's most potent weaponry and equipment at their disposal, yes .

You may be interested in the following:

Terminator Power Fist
Inf HH 7.3
Inf HM 9.1
Inf H 7.3
Inf M 5.2
Inf L 8.4

Tac Seargent Power Fist
Inf HH 41
Inf HM 53.2
Inf H 60.7
Inf M 54.7
Inf L 72.3

Can I get a LOL!

If you want a real laugh, check this out

Tactical Knife (yes KNIFE!)
Inf HH 9.2
Inf HM 9.4
Inf H 9.1
Inf M 9.4
Inf L 12.9

lol.

Hehe, I already knew regular Tacs were better than Termies in melee - particularly when you take the Sergeant's weapons into account...but to see the actual dps figures is even more amusing. :haha:

Yet the tooltips still claim Terminators are effective against most target types in melee.

[nemarsde]

Ah. Tooltips.

I had no idea the actual damage stats were so... embarrassing!?

I'm with Slow_Runner. Terminators shouldn't be as good as Assault Terminators in melee. However, they should at least be equivalent to Tactical Marines. At least.

[Energizer Bunny]

No - I agree. I'm not asking for Terminators to be CC beasts, but I think given their cost and squad cap they could afford to be the equal of, say, an assault marine.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Well, considering their HP, even with those DPS stats terminators are going to beat tac marines. If they did the damage of an assault marine, they would probably need to cost more, because they're pretty cheap for their ranged damage. I mean, they cost less req than an assault marine..!

[KotCR]

Well, considering their HP, even with those DPS stats terminators are going to beat tac marines.

Probably, but I expect with a geared up Sergeant with the Tac's it could perhaps end up closer than you might think - remember the Tac's will also benefit from rally, the Termies will not.

Anyway...

Again, I think Terminators will be mostly fine if FotM gets fixed.

As others have said, giving them too much more melee is dangerous ground considering they are ranged specialists. Excellent all-round units are always difficult to balance (would not be so bad in this case though seems you do only get 1 squad). Though they probably should do more damage than Tacticals lol.

If you gave them as much melee as ASM, other than just a slight cost increase, you'd prob have to raise their cap usage to 4 aswell.

[CorsairX]

well if you takie something like "realism" into account then moving and fighting/dodging CC in those sluggish term armors seems a bit hard

[Nobunaga]

Woah that's pretty nuts. I always thought (evil tooltips) that the reason Termies kinda sucked at range was coz they had good CC abilities. I have to say that I'd also be quite happy to swap Kasrkins for Termies anyway. Generally I don't even bother building Kassies because it takes so damn long after you think "hmm I could use some Kasrkins" for them to actually become combat worthy. With termies you don't need to do anything but build them and then you ca drop them staright in. They're still somewhat useful even without being reinforced. You can't have my Ogs though! Get back you foul Og thieves!

[KotCR]

moving and fighting/dodging CC in those sluggish term armors seems a bit hard

Not for Space Marines. Just like the Power Armour, it becomes like a (very) thick skin for them - so moving and fighting is no problem for the Marine. Of course, due to the sheer size of the suit, dodging however is difficult, and the size also makes the suit cumbersome to employ in general (this corridor is too small, for example ).

Anywho, that's why Termies move as slow as they do and why their Power Fists have a set-up time (at least I think they currently do, I've definetly seem them with it before).

So yup, not just packing poor DPS in melee, but also set-up times. Grand .

[ForgottenSpirit]

KotCR, is that Chaos Gate in your sig?

That game was so much fun.

[Deaths Abyss]

Id like to see termies with high accuracy on the move and faster teleport. As it is i can walk faster than teleport.

[nemarsde]

The Terminator power fist is even more embarrassing when you consider the setup time. It should be called the power velvet glove. Useful for slapping your enemies across the face in an indignant but challenging manner.

[Question]

I never realised the termie assault canon was buffed. IIRC in WA it was basically a storm bolter with extra range. Ive been using the flamers the entire time.

[War-Reborn]

i agree with the fire on the move stuff, i got a whole thread in the sugestion box basically saying that differant weapons need differant fire on the move penalties, but for termies an oblits i would have no penalty at all jus like on necron warriors due to the fact there so slow, standard termie & oblit cc needs to be buffed a bit but not that much there a ranged unit after all, i'd say a level jus below that of a standard sm sqaud would be fine.
An in responce to kotcr, i stand by my comments in a large battle composing, several squads an veicles i dont have time to faff about swapping commanders on just one squad, an even if you leave the sqaud with one priest (an dont bother with the attach dettach micro, to get a load of continuous bonuses) an postion it well, its hardly as usefull as being able to teleport or deeptrike to your chosen loacation, or behind enemy lines add to the fact karksins are about as tough as a standard SM HP wise and you only get one of them an it adds up to a unit that in larger battles makes sod all real differance, unlike termies who can be deepstriked in to attack key structures or provide a good diversion

[CorsairX]

terminators should have less fire on the move penalty with every weapon, upgraded or not i think, they move like warriors so they have the same time to aim

[Zeeky_Bomb]

Terminators are really that bad in melee? So I can actually tie them up with some Guardsmen in melee? Hooray! But really, that needs to be changed. If I punch somebody with a power fist I expect their face to come off.

[Jaimas]

....Please tell me those damage values aren't accurate.

If they are, it's official: Relic's balance fixing team officially has given up on even trying to make sense.

Because we all know Tau fire warriors should be able to outmelee a Space Marine in tactical Dreadknight Armor armed with a Power Fist. And it's perfectly acceptible for the in-game description of the Termie to claim it's "effective against most units in melee combat."

Seriously, even by the staggering cases of balance mismanagement done previously, this one makes absolutely no sense. They should be at LEAST as good in melee as Assault Marines. That's kinda their fuggin' point.

[HarmlessPenguin]

It's not even the idea of FW's being able to tie up Termies, but that Bonesingers can tie them up, and I've actually used the tactic in a match against my friend the other day sadly; Bonesingers move faster than Termies and can teleport further, cost much less; I just had them gather at the center of the map and teleported another in when one died and his termies were perpetually stuck in CC while the rest of the armies were fighting =P

Edit: it's amusing because Termies and Bonesingers actually deal nearly the same ~5 dps to each other =P

[Altor]

It is clear by reading the stats here that the Termies are way UP in CC and slighlty UP as well in Ranged combat. Health and armor can only make up for so much.

I suggest that in order to counter this Terminators should have more teleporter jumps. By being able to jump more it makes them much easier to use in the overall strategy. Perhaps they should tele faster, but I'm not sure about that. Maybe the delay after landing should be shortened?

I don't think enough ppl have seen these stats and think that Termies are really much stronger than they really are. If more ppl become aware of this it helps the chance of something being fixed :-)