[1.3] Panzer IV

[Klaus]

It seems to me that since the 1.3 update the Panzer IV has become more accurate with its main weapon, and as a result, a much more useful tank. However, I've been greatly annoyed by the fact that a fully upgraded Panzer IV cannot 1v1 a sherman with the 76mm upgrade. Considering the huge amount of fuel and manpower I'm spending on getting my tanks to this level, it seems foolish that for a mere 200 manpower and 100 fuel an allied tank still comes out of top so easily without being at the highest veterancy level as well.

[Warnstaff]

The advantage I found with the PZIV is that it costs les fuel (albeit, not a whole lot less), and if you skip the veterancy upgrades, you can get a lot more PZIVs out by the time shermans become prominent. I found this out in a battle against the advanced AI (latest version - and the AI had upgunned). 6-8 PZIVs = no end of pain! Quite spamable to..... if your resource smart.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

PIVs are more useful anti-infantry without munitions upgrades though. It's the Rangers to the shermans Stormtroopers.

[0mar]

6-8 Pz4s? The game can be well over before you can put out the Panzer command.

As far as the Pz4 is concerned, the actual tank is fine. However, getting to the Pz4 comes at an extreme premium that simply is not attainable in most 1on1s. Your very first Pz4 costs ~800 manpower and 215 fuel compared to a Stug. That's approximately 4 Stugs in fuel and 2.5 in manpower. Either way you slice it, the Pz4 is just too high of a premium.

[Klaus]

Situations where Pz4s aren't useful have no bearing on this post 0mar.

100 munitions per sherman to be better "anti-infantry" doesn't really balance out the fact that after 150 fuel and 700 manpower in upgrades, a Pz4 can't stand up to a sherman 1v1 that has an upgrade of 100 fuel and 200 manpower (I'm not even going to mention smoke here, since I assume this is due for some changes).

Considering the cost in upgrades you'd still be making back the fuel until there were 5 panzers on the field
(80*5 + 150 = 90 * 5 + 100) to even make up for the higher upgrade price(fuel wise).

Not to mention that it's cheaper in regards to manpower for the allied player

700 + 2460 = 3160 for 6 Pz4 and upgrades
or
700 + 2050 = 2760 for 5 Pz4 and upgrades
vs.
2100 + 200 = 2300 for 5 shermans and upgrade
meaing either a difference of 870 or 460 manpower.

And all of this ignoring the 75 less fuel and 450/470 less manpower (just about a Panzer 4 worth in resources) it costs allies to be able to get the building for the tanks in the first place. For this alone I'd expect the germans to have better armor in the first place.

With this you can make the fight 5 shermans vs 4 panzer 4s in a fight where the shermans could have won 5v5 anyways!

I understand boiling a whole game down to that takes a lot out of context, but I mean to show how terrible the panzer 4 is in comparison to other tanks. All in all I find the game to be balanced fairly well, I'd just like to see each unit useful.

What I'd love to see to fix this is Pz4s started as an F2 or a G at lower, but then being upgraded to an H at higher levels (aka give them a bit more damage, this being its worse attribute at the moment). This could be in tandem with the shermans being "upgraded" to fireflies (and at a much cheaper price).

[Mistenth]

Yea, once upgunned Shermans own Stugs, Pz4s and Axis Infantry. Leaving the supremely expensive Panthers and Tigers to fight back, which can be defeated by AT guns, especially well-position air-dropped AT guns.

As mentioned, I think this isn't the case of the units, but that the Axis need so much more manpower to do anything.

They need 600 MP for phase upgrades, 100/300/300MP for 1 upgrade route, Wermacht quarters costs 60MP/40MP more than Rax/WSC, Axis infantry cost more to reinforce (Riflemen 22 to Volks 28? Grens 37), Axis Infantry cost more to build etc etc.

Throw in the faster rax/wsc building speeds, fasting riflemen capping speeds, 3-men engineers defeating 2-men pioneers and Axis have a uphill battle to win at all.

[Demonic Spoon]

It CAN go toe to toe with a sherman with the 76mm upgrade. You just have to get close so it penetrates more.

[Mr Pink]

the thing is, tank for tank, the Sherman 76mm is a better tank then the pzr IV. More armour, better gun (slightly in both departments).
Realistically the only balance would be to make Pzr IV's a little cheaper, probably jus in the fuel department since it costs so much to get to that T4 level...

otherwise the age old sherman upgrade is per tank...

i would like to use Pzr IV's more often... and they are gettign better, albeit slowly...

[Karius]

Good luck getting close to an upgunned Sherman.

[Mistenth]

"Ha! Panzer 4 trying to engage our armour! GOOD LUCK!" - modified Sherman speech

[Death Merchant]

Getting close to a sherman usually involves getting close to his other units too... Most notably rifleroaches with greased socks.

[Tuco]

You gotta watch out for those dirty-laundry weilding Riflemen. They'll stink up your tanks so bad the engines won't work anymore and the crew will scream numerous obscenities in German.

And with stinky engines, how can you stand any chance of winning? Those nice, fresh-smelling AT guns will make mincemeat out of your rotten PIV.

I find a balance of Volks to take out AT guns, and a metric ass load of Stugs, with a much smaller number of PIVs/Ostwinds/Tigers is a good choice for a head-on battle. Plus a Walking Stuka for arty support and Volks reinforcing. Tough to get all that out in 1 on 1 though.

[AntiCommie]

P4s with upgrades(Vet levels) can take on unleveled Shermans 1v1. Level 1 gives them more HP and Level 3 makes they bounce more shots. P4s should be used more in a support role on the flanks of a Panther. Force them to get close to hurt your weaker tank, or try to kill your superior one, either way they are the worse off. I tend to focus on Panthers, since they are the best tank(Non doc) in game. I also find it easier to micro 1 good tank rather then a swarm of crappy ones. I'm usually able to give 2-1 with Panthers, and a lot of time I'll kill 1, and both sides will retreat.

[mardal]

now, did anyone notice the reference to rifle roaches? where are your P IV grenroaches? you guys try to make the units do more than it is designed for. Combined arms is the name of the war and the name of the game. the PIV is the sherman gun magnet the grens with AT are the tank killers. Most people dis the AT gun too but bring one to a tank fight and see how usefull it is, man has anyone noticed the rate of fire on those babies?
So the PIV is not a match in a stand up against Shermans, tip- dont get into standup knock down fights with shermans, instead if you know the allies are commin with thier shermies then suckker them into and aproach by driving your P IV into view and then higtailing it back to your lines where you've set up 2 AT guns and a few grens+AT and your handfull of PIV's the shermies walk right in you slaughter them. Just running stright up to them and slogging it out is just lazy.

[Death Merchant]

The PIV Grenroaches are busy getting pinned, grenaded, and having half their men killed by a sherman shot.

Plus, unlike rifleroaches, they don't quite appear everywhere and they die... Unlike the 6 man riflesquad. They are not universal infantry, so if you make them, you will only have 2, maybe 3. You need volks to fight off riflemen-- The grenadiers cannot do it themselves.

Rifles just need rifles. Rifles are your anti-infantry infantry, and your anti-tank infantry. They are everywhere, and they last.

But you did bring up an important point-- the PIV is mobile. I have counted so many shermans run away from fights half-dead and be unable to chase them because of the roaches or AT guns. It would be nice to be able to bring an axis tank back half-dead, for once, with my other units getting rear shots as the sherman tried to chase it.