The Chainsword

[Olgerth Istaarn]

This is a fluff/rules crossover.

Consider the chainsword. A weapon that is every bit the melee counterpart of the holy bolter: loud, brutal, obnoxiously over-the top (it's a handheld chainsaw!), messy and bloody.

When a Space Marine (of either allegiance) is drawn in an art piece, he's frequently pictured with a chainsword, because - face it - it's the least boring of all choices. Sometimes an axe is just an axe, and a sword just a sword - even if they have the "crackling energy field" about them, and while powerfists are pleasantly out-of-proportion, they just don't have the chainsword's, well, gumption. After all, if you wanted to brutally kill something, would you rather saw it in half showering everything in gore and bone fragments, or punch and crush it to death?

Yet on the tabletop, the chainsword is quite humble, relegated to the role of the utterly bland "CCW" that does nothing other than grant an extra attack. The only time it makes a good showing is in assault-heavy armies, and even then the final word is spoken by "the hidden powerfist". I stubbornly stick chainswords on sarges in my Las/Plas squads even though a bolter would probably make more sense - but it's just not "sergeantly", IMO, not to brandish the toothy implement of death and destruction.

Do you think a chainsword should receive a "slice of glory" someday to make it a slightly more unique and desirable weapon? Perhaps make it a choppa's equivalent (treat everything better than 4+ as 4+) or somesuch?

[fifth_horseman]

I do agree that their rules just seem to be a bit too tame, but then we could also have distinctions between swords/axes/lances/maces etcetra. Not that I think that would be a bad idea...

[FabianX]

Chainswords should get rending with all those saw teeth and all, but in TT that would make Assault Marines and Striking Scorps just as nasty as Genestealers. Which might be a good or bad thing. Still the Chainswords aren't as fun as they were in 2nd ed where they had -1 armor save and could parry.

[Zarathustrian]

Well In 2.nd ed. the chaisword gave model S4 an -1 to armor saves. Same still holds true in Necromunda. But when the 3.ed came GW decided to "simplifie" the game.
So all the different cc weapons (swords, axes, chain weapons etc. which all had different rules) were simply catecorized as either cc weapons(with no special rules) or power weapons(ignore armor).
So becouse people couldn´t calculate the different modifiers (marine has 3+ save and is hit by chainsword -1 as, what save marine has?) we have a game that has no modifiers and extremely simplified weapons.

[Shoota Fodder]

Well thats fine by me. It took me two years to learn the rules! As they are and i'm still not to sure about half of them. Although you do have a point, chainswords should give a bonus to the wielder or something like that.

[Lone_Commisar]

I like the idea of a -1 armour save I put chainswords on my Sergeants too you can just imagine the rrrrrwwwwwspriiiiiispurrrrrr of it going into a body and I find it annoying that it counts the same as a big knife carried by some ist.

[Magus Zeal]

If they were granted extra bonuses, I would be less loathe to use them rather than spend the points buying a Power Weapon. But if we distinguish the Chainsword, then we have to distinguish the Chainaxe, regular knives and swords, clubs/maces/etc. From Zarathustrian's retelling, it would be back to 2nd ed. all over.

[Sword_Monkey]

Rending!

Power-chainswords!

How.Cool.Would.That.Be?

Yes Chainswords are awesome, yes they deserve something more, maybe an extra +1 to strength, like Scorpion chainswords.

[Harlequin]

I love Space Marines and Eldar, so a part of me wants to see the chainsword get special rules.

However, if one melee weapon gets the treatment, then they're all going to have to be examined, and I just don't see that happening.

[Ethrion]

I agree but I tend to think that its the way it is just so that there can be some different 'levels' of weapons. With the non-power weapons "worse" (loose use of the term there) than power weapons like swords or fists. At the very bottom of the pile are the simple bladed weapons like bayonets and knifes and plain axes.

Chainswords are cool but i would prefer a powersword. Or how about a chainfist? Best of both weapons there: power and a chain!

[KyjL]

Instead of a power sword, how about a power chainsword?

Come on folks, it really can't get any cooler than that. Especially if you tie it to a librarian.

[Gorb]

This chainsword idea has a lot of potential.

On a rules note, making it only allow 4+ saves is a bit too good. That would make things like Khornate Chainaxes useless.

"Pay 1 pt to make your chainsword a chainaxe. It does the same thing, but it looks cooler."

I like the +1 Str idea. Fluffwise, a Marine can throttle a man with his bare hands. Hence the Strength 4. If he has a chainsword, he should go to Strength 5, or only allow a max save of 3+.

[fifth_horseman]

That "allow max save of 3+" is a good idea, IMO.

Altough I'm more in favor of a 1-point penalty to armor saves - eg 2+ becomes 3+, 5+ becomes 6+ and 6+ saves are nullified. That would be fairly reasonable, IMO.

[Ramrod]

Gorb... any person can throttle another person with their bare hands...

I personally like the Rending idea. It looks more rendy than the Genestealers' claws, that's for damn sure.

[Sword_Monkey]

I was saying rending in jest.

After all Genestealer claws are diamond hard with muscles the size of our torsos behind them. Rending ona chainsword would be slightly ridiculous.

I also despise the maximum armour save thing, a chainsword finds it easier and easier to rip through lighter and lighter materials. Terminator armour would not be reduced to 3+, more like the chainsword siply has its own AP of 5 or 6.

[Inquisitor Lord]

I always thought that if anyone the blood angel's chain weapons should give +4 armor save. It works with the fact that thier opisate the world eaters.

[Shoota Fodder]

I also despise the maximum armour save thing, a chainsword finds it easier and easier to rip through lighter and lighter materials. Terminator armour would not be reduced to 3+, more like the chainsword siply has its own AP of 5 or 6.

I like the sound of that!

[Harlequin]

Gorb... any person can throttle another person with their bare hands...

I personally like the Rending idea. It looks more rendy than the Genestealers' claws, that's for damn sure.

So, you're saying that getting clocked by a Guardsman would be *as painful* as being decked by a Space Marine?

[jammers_]

Well, it would. I mean, a guardsman would take longer to kill you.

I think a marine would just break a neck. Or better, rip their head off. Maybe reach inside their mouth and pull out all their organs.

Yea, thats badass enough for a Space Marine!

And be careful about posting rules guys, I've seen quite a few locked threads where people discussed rules in too much detail.

[Harlequin]

What I'm trying to say is...I think getting clocked by a Space Marine would hurt a LOT more than being hit by a Guardsman. Even the burly Catachans are still "normal" humans, whereas the Space Marines are genetically modified.

Due to muscle mass and the degree of their combat training, I just can't see a Space Marine being at the same strength level as a Guardsman.

But, I'm digressing.

[Major_Blackhart]

The only groups that are possibly equal in fluff terms to the strength of a space marine are Ogryns (which might surpass the space marine in strength) and the Skull Takers of Kanak (who are described in the IG codex as being more akin to their Ogryn allies than men, but they'd be a really tough and nasty enemy to fight, so the Imperium luvs em)

[Ramrod]

I think Harlequin is mixing up "beaten" with "throttled." To throttle means to strangle. Anybody can strangle anybody else. It happens right now. In real life. Where Space Marines don't exist. I didn't say anything about which was more painful, because it's irrelevant. Simple fact is anybody can do it.

And Monkey, FabianX suggested rending before you did. I think he was being serious, as am I. I don't think it'd be ridiculous, it's a chainsaw being swung at you. On a roll of 6, I can buy that an IG sergeant aimed it at his enemy's face. What's ridiculous about that? That's where I'd aim it.

[jammers_]

CHAINSWORD TO THE FACE MOTHERFUCKER!

Man, that would be cool.

It's a good point though, A rending attack kind of makes sense when you're being attacked by a hand-held chainsaw.

[treeboy]

or it could count the targets toughness as one less, as it will be sawing through whatever is ment to be protecting them, but it also makes it so space marines cant tear up most light vehicles (the 11 armoured ones that is).

i'd also like to know, as the space marines are so darn strong, wouldnt chain swords snap or break from the force they hit things with?

[Stewie_Griffin]

No, Space Marine weapons are designed to be wielded with the super-human strength they possess. A chainsword would most likely be able to withstand that kind of force.

While we're on this subject, why don't the SM dreads ever use chainsword type weaponry? that's gotta provide a ton of hurt

[Evolution]

To Stewie: I have actually thought about remodeling my dreadnaughts to use a kind of giant chainsword, just have not gotten around to it yet.
[EDIT]: Been thinking about getting two eviscerators and removing the bottoms off them and gluing them side by side with a small space in between.

To the thread: I think to accomodate fluff, chainswords should get this little extra rule.
"Ignores armoursaves of 6+ and any save of 5+ gets reduced to 6+"

[Harlequin]

Round these parts, throttle is slang for clocking someone. So it's a nomenclature clash, nothing more.

[Magus Zeal]

Actually, Dreadnoughts use Power Fist-equivalents as their close-combat weapons. I'd rather have a disruptor field over my weapon rather than one that rends (not to mention the boosted strength!).

Edit: Evolution, wouldn't that mean that a Chainsword just has an AP of 5?

[mase]

Why not give close combat weapons a AP value in general? Powerweapons would get AP 2, Chainweapons AP 4 and monomolecularedged weapons AP 5. Its not too hard to remember and still closer to the fluff.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

I agree, AP on CCWs would be a damn good idea. And the simplest of them all, too...

[Malik]

I guess its not a big issue for me when translating chainswords to tabletop.

Being a Witch Hunter's player, I just claim Eviscerator and be done with it.

But back on topic. Hand weapons with AP would be nice, but then that would dillute something else (like power weapons)

I think it should jsut stay the way it is. (Mainly for us generals of metal armies who don't always have the option of gluing a weapons to models.)

[Inquisitor Lord]

I agree with magnus. In the fluff there are stories of space marines with chain wepaons tearing armored vehicals apart. but the can on;y glance the lightest of armor in game. maybe they should always glance of a 6 like necron disruption feilds.

[Harlequin]

I kinda have issues with armor-piercing weapons. I know that bringing "realism" into the game is kind of bad form, but body armor, historically speaking was designed primarily to combat melee weapons. Armor is generally much more effective against melee than it is firearms. It's simple physics.

Honestly, I think the simplifed CC weapons-system works well for the most part. Although, as I already stated, I do love the Chainsword

[Gorb]

AP for cc weapons sounds great.

Also, to correct my earlier mistake, Space Marines can break the back of normal humans with their bare hands. Hence the Strength of X. Hence the possible need for a higher Strength when wielding a chainsword.

That good enough for some?

[The Farseer]

It would be nice if they made a 'special' chainsword for some of the races (Like the scorpion chainsword). The only other one I can think of is the Frost Blade (Pretty sure that is a chain weapon) for Space Wolves.

[Major_Blackhart]

Frost Blade is a chain sword, but it's treated as a power weapon that adds to strength. ALso, Khornate CHainaxe is a chain weapon that's big and bulky as hell.

All known chainweapons used by SM, IG, Chaos (also taken from Inquisitor Rulebook as well):
CHainSword
Chain Axe
Eviscerator
Frost Blade
Khornate Chainaxe
Chain Fist

We should also maybe get some more:
Chain Bayonets
Chain Glaives, Halberds, and the like

[The Farseer]

know what I was just having a stupid moment after my Blood Angel rant. Thanks for the comfirmation.

[FerociousBeast]

While I like the sound of a strength bonus to the Chainsword, in a d6 game like 40k that's just too big.

I do think it would be sweet to make it AP 5.

[Maschinenschade]

Funny, how everybody wanted to get rid of the AP, then called Armoursave Modifier iirc, just to bring it now back, with the same stats. Well, not exactly the same stats, but able to counter Flak-Armour like in 2nd Edition.

[Puddy]

I think that detailed stuff belongs in skirmishlevel games like necromunda.

Swords, chainswords, axes = CCW.

[solidzaku]

I tend to forget how a Chainfist works. In some instances, I hear it being a simple Powerfist with a wrist-mounted Chainsword that's specially designed to chew through armored hulls, but other times, I see diagrams of Powerfists that have cutting teeth built into the the palms and undersides of the fingers, so basically putting your hand on just about anything would mangle it into pulp.

Are there two different designs to Chainfists, or am I mistaking something?

[Shoota Fodder]

I do believe there are several different types. Some are power fists which are full of rolving blades on the palms and back of the hand (so you can slap people!) while others can be just a power fist with a chainsword sticking out the side of it.

[Deaths Abyss]

I never got the workings of chainfists.How does the chain interact with the swiping action of the powerfist?

[Sword_Monkey]

Yay AP idea is popular.

Oh and why is it unfair to keep on jabbering about how marines can break bodies with their bare hands?

This is TT not fluff, we are merely trying to cross the fluff over in respect to the chainsword. If we wanted Marines to be stronger in TT to be closer to fluff we would talk about increasing their strength full stop. But that's not the way things work, TT is 'dwarfed' by fluff standards, C'tan become killable, Marines get weaker, Orks in smaller crowds and psykers silenced.

[Shrapnelwolf]

While I agree with all of you that the Chainsword is pretty much the coolest close combat weapon, I think it was relegated to being just a normal close combat weapon because...think about it. If the chainsword was a special weapon, then there really wouldn't be a "normal" CC weapon for Marines. You could take a "normal" sword, but really those "could" be power swords. It's just a little indicator that says "Hey! You! You can still take your armor save!"

[Joe1337]

Is it just me or does anyone else picture there assult marines as Marcus Fenix whenever they kill somthing in melee?

[Iron_Heart]

Fook yes! It is thee maddest weapon far out-doing the necron warsyth and flaid one claws and the tyranid rending claws and sything tallons. You think the power sword would just become "sword". When I first saw a chainsword on a Space marine I thought that's going to kick ass. But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Legion.]

I agree. Chainswords are quit weak when you think what kind of weapon it is. Monomolecular blades?! Come on.

[Takashi_Kurita]

Is it just me or does anyone else picture there assult marines as Marcus Fenix whenever they kill somthing in melee?

Oh, totally. After having played Gears of War, I now like to imagine that Space Marines would actually look something more like the COG troopers from Gears, rather than the way they do now. Certainly if they ever made a movie about it, they'd have to make them look something like that.

[shovah O'Shovah]

You think the power sword would just become "sword".

Why on earth would you think that?