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If there is one thing that bothers me more then anything it is beating down a rifle squad to one man and have them come back with 5 green squad members with rank 1 veterancy. This just isn't fair to the axis as we take a beating to hold a position and all allies have to do is kill a few soldiers, run away and come back stronger with green units.
Last edited by Starfisher; 4th Dec 06 at 3:58 PM.
#2
You're forgetting that the Axis units can all get veterancy as soon as they're built once it's researched - no need to engage in combat. Balances it out quite a bit.
It doesn't imo, the costs involve outway the benefits in most situations. Also the veterancy bonus for the Allies are almost always speed and damage, the axis ones vary a lot from unit to unit, and with no official word on what they are it's hard to tell what each units gets. It's a nice idea, but why would i upgrade my tanks when i can just build 3 new ones?
There is a thread from Relic(Buggo) on the effects of axis Vet. I'll try to find it for you. The problem with Axis vs Allied vets is allies have more men, making squad survival easier, and allies focus on damage/speed, while axis focus on HP/armor. The allied ones are also much more powerful then axis ones. Basically, by the time you get your +20% HP for your tanks, you'll be fighting tanks that do +50% damage. Add the better speed, and you'll almost never kill a well microed sherman, try to run away with anything slower then a Puma, and your dead (And if you do run they'll probably sticky you anyway). This means that allies get better and more troops, since they dont spend any money on vets.
Edit: To anticommie:
Note that the 'axis defensive, allied offensive' thing is mostly for tanks, although it's not a bad rule of thumb because it's mostly correct. It's not for infantry though, or for MG's etc.
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http://www.nemesischiken.org/nembus/CoH.html
According to this, allied veterancy stats for riflemen increase both offensively and defensively, and volksgrenadiers get .. a weak HP regen at level 1, nothing at level 2, and +20% health at level 3. (Grenadiers and other units also get an armor upgrade at level 2 which is fairly noticeable, but volksgrenadiers don't.). Allied riflemen get several accuracy bonuses (25, 10, 20%), 50% extra damage (vet 3), gets harder to hit(20%, vet 1), takes 85% damage and gets harder to suppress (vet 2).
Axis units can get veterancy through kills and not just the upgrades, however it is slow enough that it is mostly a theoretical possibility. (They need 100, 200, 300 xp instead of 8,16,32).
Considering the axis unit size and how easy it is to loose an entire squad due to that, I think 'buyable' veterancy is a good solution for the axis, although veterancy through kills might be a LITTLE easier to obtain without it making a significant difference.
I do think axis veterancy should be weaker than allied one or it'd be a rather slippery slope of allied units having a very hard time getting veterancy or winning at all, but I do think they might be overdoing it a bit, but that's just my opinion.
I think there's been a few threads on this subject though.
Last edited by Falaris; 4th Dec 06 at 9:49 AM.
It would be nice if Axis vet could be gained through kills (Make it 2-3X allied, not 12X) for each unit, or bought universally. If that were the case I feel most people would buy the first level and earn the rest.
the problem is allies can theorhetically have various types of units VERY easily maxed out in veterancy, IE 1 tank, 2 rifle squad and a AT gun. and this combo IS QUITE DEADY and can be achievable in a 1v1 situation. The problem is Axis cannot have this nice variety of elite units ever. It is an immpossibility for an axis player to have an elite AT gun, and elite Tank, and a couple elite infantry squads. This is why axis forces are shafted, it cannot compete with the variety that is offered simply by allies using their units. Instead axis are forced to choose their single elite component when all Allies have to do is do hit and run tactics and voila instant elite combined arms.
Kampfkraft center is a joke, and buying experience is and always will be the stupidest thing I have ever heard of in a war game.
It doesn't balance it out at all. The cost of the veterancy upgrades is not equal, even in the roughest sense, to their value, except maybe tank veterancy...You're forgetting that the Axis units can all get veterancy as soon as they're built once it's researched - no need to engage in combat. Balances it out quite a bit.
.0016 health regen for effectively 200MP and 60 fuel? balanced my ass.
Last edited by FatalTheRabbit; 4th Dec 06 at 10:42 AM.
Something I just thought off to make the experience more reasonable and realistic. The reason the Axis "buy" experience is because they are bringing in experienced troops from the eastern front (Which they did IRL). If the Kampkraft center had a very cheap price per level (Say 100MP 10/20/30 fuel) but the upgrades were unit specific, you could buy 1 or 2 elite units of each type, just like the allies, but a fully elite army would be very costly (Like it is now). They could also lower the combat veteran requirements to something more reasonable.
The way it would basically work is you would buy the kampkraft center, buy your upgrades, so we'll say your level 1 inf, lev 3 tanks, none on everything else. When you click your Panther, you can click upgrade and poof, your Panther is Lev3, all others are still green. There would be a cost to upgrade, but I dont know what it would be yet, 100MP 50 fuel? or something like that. To prevent instant field upgrades they could also make it only work around the KKC, so allies could destroy that building to prevent veterancy.
What this does is make Axis vets more expensive, but easier to obtain. Right now if you want a lev3 Panther your going to spend 30+30+50+70 fuel and 100+100+300+300 MP. For 1 tank this isnt worth it, for 3 tanks this isnt worth it. Thats why for team games, where mass units are the norm, veterancy isnt a big problem.
Hey that's actually a pretty spiffy idea.....
Well, it's a hell of a lot better than the current system, at any rate.
I actually like the way Relic implemented the Vetrency for the Axis.. The idea behind it is cool, you spend some resources the obtain crack/veteren troops.. And I like the fact its different from the way the Allies gain veterncy which adds some more flavour to the game. MY problem with the vetrency is there are way too many 'dead' spots where spending your hard earned fuel and MP give you no benefit. Really, the only usefull well spent vetrency upgrades are LVL 1 Weps team vetrency for your MG's.. but on the same hand that same bonus does absolutely nothing for your Pak38 crews. Frustrating. The tank vetrency are about the only ones that are all money well spent, if you can afford them. The infantry bonus are absolutely useless with the exception of lvl 3, but you'll have to buy two, very expensive, little benefit upgrades to get there.. Im very curious to see what Relic does with Axis vetrency in 1.4, if anything at all. Should be interesting.....Originally Posted by MajorThorvald
S.
i like the axis veterancy, but the costs and certain upgrades for certain units are absolutely rediculous and do not fit the unit. As for upgrading the lvl 1 infantry for a small health bonus, total bork.
You cannot possibly move through the tier system as axis, and upgrade your units to, just not possible. Tier 3 infanty perform just as good against a sherman as tier 1, they all get fubared.
Even bought, Axis vet bonuses are a complete joke. They are, firstly, too damned expensive. Secondly, they are mainly defensive bonuses, but COH is a hyper-offensive game. Thirdly, the Allied bonuses are gotten just by playing the game, and are heads and shoulders above the Axis upgrades in every single case. Riflemen get accuracy, suppression resistance and HP I think, which completely overwhelm normal Axis soldiers, 57mm crews get ridiculous penetration bonuses. Even upgraded Axis soldiers are a joke, because the upgrades are just plain stupid (miniscule health regen, hero armor, 25% health). And as fuel is the most valuble commodity, one can't just spend it willy-nilly. Getting veternacy upgrades for Axis is moot. If you can afford it, you have already won. If you get them in a close game, you will lose because of lower tank/vehicle presence.
#14
Well, we know nearly everyone agrees that Axis veterancy is a joke for the most part and we've all made the same logical arguments. The question is, why has Relic never responded to this issue? Are they aware of it? If so, what plans do they have to correct the problem?
Unfortunately, this is the kind of thing that's going to require a lot of time and effort to overhaul, no matter how necessary the fix is or how stupid it was that it wasn't even close to being balanced in the first place. This is probably the pessimist in me talking, but I wouldn't expect any significant changes to be made to Axis veterancy until an expansion pack comes out, if ever. I'd like to be proven wrong on this one, obviously, but we all know at what a ponderous pace Relic moves at in regards to this sort of thing.
A degree of ruthlessness is inherent in any enterprise of consequence.
#16
Yea look how "fast" 1.4 has come out....I mean, they said it was coming fast because they've been working on it for a while before 1.3 came out and this is why we didn't get a hotfix to address the stupid tank trap/barbed wire bugs. I have to say that those issues should have been hotfixed. There really is no excuse for it.
When did 1.3 come out again?
S.
Well its the holiday season, which puts a cramp in most production. Also, from what I can tell, the CoH team has to wait for access to the A&Q. And really, I wouldnt be suprised if they arnt going to tell us a thing till its out considering the last response time around. Lets not beg them to rush it, concidering what happened last time.
I think Axis ventrency is to pricey in the MP department. For an upgraded that effects the several units at one time, the fuel cost seems inline. The second level of infantry has always been very useful in the team games I used it in, though 300 mp seems like way to much to pay for the upgrade on top of the other costs.
Still, considering the upgrades are perment and stack with other company abilities, I dont want them to be priced so low that they are a abusive. Right now heavy cover + for the fatherland + lvl 2 vet infantry is down right amazing. The squad is border line unhittable. Now thats pretty much only useful in team games, but making it to cheap could lead to super invinvable infantry spam.
Axis veterancy is a lot like the supply yard upgrades(remember those, thats right your supply yard isnt just that building you build to tech), its a neat idea, but cost ot much to be useful.
Barbwire bug?
#20
Yea, light armor can no longer get through Allied barbed wire. I had this affect me on Loraine where I was playing spot 4 and was barbed off just below my base. My Pumas had to go around through the middle of the map because Allied barbed wire now acts like mini tank traps.
Great, now Allies can completely block the Axis in and the Axis cant even use Tank traps... Are we sure Relic is a Canadian company?
RayLiota:
Infantry vet2 negates allied infantry veterancy defensive bonus, vet3 is HP bonus, only one I would call inadequite is vet1 since it only grants a HP regen bonus, it would be good but the rate is too slow.
Timeless: (replying to your post on page1)
Part of the problem with the communities debates on axis veterancy is that we don't know the exact intention and often make broad or sweeping statements and do not often get specific with the issue. We don't know the intention of veterancy for certain, for instance it is my belief that axis veterancy is a late game research, as we see so often in team games, not something that should be used in 1v1. I could be wrong but that is what the design looks like to me, they are wide effect veterancy bonuses, they appear to be designed with a large army in mind. I would strongly disagree with the sentiment that most think the axis veterancy are a joke, I would say most talking about it like that are 1v1 players whom I don't think should even be using it, as well the issues are really only with specific veterancy effects, specific units and vet levels.
Pondering why I keep playing MMO's.
I'd love to see a 1v1 replay where someone makes even tank veterancy pay for itself, by the numbers.
You're looking at about 10-12+ stugs before the 4 stugs worth of fuel you spent getting to Vet 3 pays off. That's alot of armor spam for a 1v1.
I know if I was Allied there I'd be building a whole lot of AT guns.
For the price I still think thats lvl 2 infantry bonus is'nt all that usefull. Its too specialized for thta kind of cost. How does a LVL2 gren help me vs a tank? Or against an MG enplacement? And why do I only get a boost vs vet infantry? So my lvl 2 grens work the same as lvl 0 grens vs a green Riffle unit, but if thta riffle was vet 1 or 2 I would get a bonus? See my point? To get any sort of benfit from that lvl 2 vetrency its only under very small set of circumstances...
S.
Demon eyes: I dont agree that Relic wanted Axis to only use veterancy in long team games. Each of the Axis levels counters a Allied level. My belief is the Allies are supposed to have a small, elite army, supported by a larger green army. The axis, being weaker(Veterancy) overall, have a completely elite army. What this means is the axis is able to beat the green units, but will lose to the elite ones (Everything being equal), used together they should about balance out. The problem is axis never really get a chance to become elite because of the cost, and the fast teching nature of COH. The problem lies in cost/benefit ratio right now.
im sure they change it and "beta patches" are maybe on the way.
every patch or hotfix cost money, so they try to implement as much as possible in one patch.
i prefere X huge patches instead of X hotfixes.
Its not like the bandwidth is real expensive these days. Since these bugs are 'game breaking' unless you play with people not willing to exploit them I don't see a problem with fixing them asap.
RayLiota:
So between the info pulled from PCOH and the info Buggo posted it looks like it pretty much negates allied veterancy.
AntiCommie:
That doesn't take in to account veterancy rates or comparable times. Allied infantry gain veterancy at a fairly slow rate, you will not often see allied infantry with rank until upgrades are reasearched, then you might see 50% rank1, it is not until late game around the time heavy tanks or upgraded tanks start appearing that you see rank2 or rank3 and then it is often only on 1-2 infantry. Given that time frame it appears to me that it was meant as a late game counter, the cost for effect also takes in to account how many units are affected, the variety and quantity of which you will not see until late game.
This only holds true for infantry. Allied tanks get their extremely powerful veterency levels very very quickly, frequently only needing to take out 1 stug or other axis tank before gaining a level and becoming much more powerful.That doesn't take in to account veterancy rates or comparable times. Allied infantry gain veterancy at a fairly slow rate, you will not often see allied infantry with rank until upgrades are reasearched, then you might see 50% rank1, it is not until late game around the time heavy tanks or upgraded tanks start appearing that you see rank2 or rank3 and then it is often only on 1-2 infantry. Given that time frame it appears to me that it was meant as a late game counter, the cost for effect also takes in to account how many units are affected, the variety and quantity of which you will not see until late game.
actually , allies get thier stuff extremely fast, destroying bunkers and other axis infantry observation points, dropping that stug with stickes give a very nice boost for those riflemen.
so basically the kampf center is for team games, why isnt allied also for team games then? Allied tanks get huge benifits, and it takes 1 kill or 2 to get thier upgrades.
Given the nature of the bar, stickies, and grenades are all broad upgrades covering all riflemen squads, i could deduct that they are meant for team games. I mean after all, that grenade covers riflemen, rangers, and paratroopers. Must be for team games, i mean they all cost fuel, just like the kampfcraft center upgrades.
Figure this out demoneyes, this makes clear sense. infantry upgrade 1 just gives a healing bonus, worthless. Upgrade 2 gives resistance to grenades, small arms, not bad, Upgrade 3 gives health bonus, also nice. But not a single one of those saves them from a tank shell. So basically those upgrades are meant for fighting infantry, im not sure about you, but late game, what do you see more of? infantry or tanks, and which are you more worried about. The tank upgrades are the only worthwhile ones or than basic support. But tank upgrades are for late game because tanks come out late game!!!!!!!!!!!!! Gee that makes sense.
Demon eyes: Thats kind of my point... Right now axis cant afford them, ever... Yet, by the middle game you'll have a few elite rifles, an elite sniper, etc... When the stugs and shermans come out, you'll have a decent core elite force, with a few extra green troops. After your first few skirmishes between tanks, you should have a vet sherman or 2, and of course a few replacements.
How long does it actually take to become vet as allies? If you kill a single stug you'll get atleast 1 bar, another and you have 2. Even if you dont wipe out enemy squads your troops gain quickly. In this same time, the axis player is supposed to gather 200mp/60f extra just to get healing (Which takes 5+mins) or 600/110 just to make his infantry equal to the allied veterans again. That means BARs and nades are free for the allies. Now tell me that you'd rather have 2 standard volks squads instead of 2 rifles with nades and bars. Even with MP40s I'd bet on the rifles. By level 3 you might have a bonus against his troops, but by that time your outnumbered, and he probably has more vets.
You can make the same comparison to armor too, but since the tanks are already not equal its messier.
I have little doubt that Relic knows exactly how they want veterancy to work out, but at this point I dont think its where it should be. I hope Relic doesnt either.
Benguru:
Allied tank veterancy is seperate from infantry veterancy, tank veterancy is faster on the sherman moreso and because of issues seperate from veterancy.
Dread Moose:
For tank veterancy refer above. Stickies are the most cost ineffecent way to take out a stug and shouldn't be happening anyways (MG cover, micro, etc). For grenade/BAR/stickies upgrades: grenades affect 3 units, 2 of which are company specific, also it has a higher fuel cost compared to stickies which is the closest comparable upgrade. So that leaves stickies with the only low fuel cost of the allied barracks upgrades, meanwhile axis vet upgrades affect all infantry and doctrine specific infantry, that is volks, pioneers, grenadiers, KCH and stormtroopers, 5 units, 1 of which is doctrine specific. Axis vet upgrades are also upgrades that do not have additional munitions costs per use unlike grenades/suppressingfire/stickies. These are also upgrades that are available at similar times through different means on axis side, they are not veterancy upgrades nor do they provide a similar type of benefit. Axis infantry vet2 also negates allied riflemen elite defensive modifier.
Although the health regen bonus from vet1 is lackluster it is not worthless, worthless would mean it would do nothing, though it doesn't do a great deal it has a worth both in the additional HP over time as well as the access to vet2 and vet3 upgrades. Again, late game you should have more infantry than early game, this is what the cost/affect of the axis veterancy upgrades appear to be geared for, they are far to broad of effect to be early game, though some could be used mid game, around axis tier3 (support vet1) and between mid/late game around tier4 axis (infantry vet2), the entirety of axis upgrades appears to be geared toward countering allied veterancy as they are near polar opposites.
AntiCommie:
Axis can afford them, it really is more specific to when they are needed and the benefit redeemed. A single squad with a single stripe is not that significant, that is 1/6 typically, or around 15% with the vet1 bonus which is not that big. Until reaching vet2 or 3 allied riflemen squads are not a huge threat, even then the amount of xp required to reach those levels puts you in the tank phase. Axis veterancy also has several options, personally I go with support vets first, just level 1 as it gives my MG42 25% better accuracy are reload and gives my Gr80 25% faster reload which given their high area damage is a great bonus initially.
When your main counter to riflemen is MG42 I can't think of any reason to upgrade volks/pioneers first, as well as that the infantry vet1 needs an improvement, if I research infantry vet1, I immediatly follow with vet2 and usually am using a large grenadier/stormtrooper build. Comparisons to armor are actually very similar, you have axis veterancy which counteracts allied veterancy with axis tanks being stronger in AT function for cost out of the factory, as are axis infantry in their specific roles. Also 200/60 for axis support vet1 is the same cost as allied riflemen BAR, infantry vet1 and vet2 should come later as you are going to see more of a benefit from it with both a larger force with more infantry as well as there is no point to researching it until more vet2 allied infantry are around as it affects all your infantry, not just a squad or two.
Allied sherman kills 2 pumas + 1 stug and its at lvl2 vet. Now that sherman becomes neigh impossible to kill with anything less than 2 stugs. Ive lost games because my opps first sherman gains vet too quickly. In short increase the amount of exp needed for allied tanks to kill. Even a damn AT gun lvls from killing a stug. Now that AT gun kill stugs even faster.
Benguru:
Allied tank veterancy is seperate from infantry veterancy, tank veterancy is faster on the sherman moreso and because of issues seperate from veterancy.
Err... I don't think saying something obvious is the same as having a point. Yes, tanks aren't infantry and tank veterancy is faster on the sherman. Great, I'm glad we've established a common ground based on apparent facts.
To take it from there... Shermans, M10's and allied AT guns consistently have an advantage from the veterancy standpoint during a 1v1 game. And that advantage is often decisive.
Unless you as the Axis are winning every tank battle and avoiding AT fire, the allies are guaranteed to be stacking up veterancy on the 3 superior tank killing weapons. Due to the high exp value of any armor, every time an enemey tank killing unit knocks one of your units down, which is inevitable, they become quite powerful. And due to a sherman's incredible infantry slaughtering prowess, it doesn't even need to kill a stug... a hapless grenadier squad and some volks will do.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that the most powerful end game units level veterancy for the allies very rapidly. The M10 and Sherman are extremely fast, and extremely likely to escape intact after a kill. As they level, they take what was already at best an equally balanced contest between opponents and give the allies an advantage which no 1v1 axis player of even high skill is likely to be able to buy themselves out of.
I don't really want to take that veterancy away from the allies, I would just really like a system where I can consider using Axis veterancy without throwing the game to my opponent.
Bent made a comment arbitrarily relative to the quote of my points on infantry veterancy, was pointing out that it was not really related and was more to do with the sherman. Basically flame bait your posting there Texture.
The M10 doesn't gain veterancy particualrly fast, whats more it loses it much easier than the sherman or crocodile, the crocodile is the slowest of the three and really takes quite a while to get veterancy, of which it doesnt see a benefit of the 3rd level since penetration doesn't matter for the crocodile, either way the Wolverine and Crocodile have appeared to be well balanced in veterancy gain, the sherman is a different story however.
If you want veterancy for 1v1 then veterancy is going to have to be much more specific, right now it is too broad and axis units or veterancy would need nerfing as a side affect of having early game veterancy that can not be lost.
Agreed. Bentguru made an excellent point about tank veterancy. Saying that tanks aren't infantry isn't exactly a killer observation eh? But I'm totally not going to argue with you about it. Tanks aren't infantry, not even if the infantryman in question is exceptionally fat, wearing an oil drum and making tank noises... wait what was I saying?
Oh yeah. Well, an M10 doesn't exactly 'loose' it's veterancy does it? It dies. And a nice, fast M10 used for hit and runs to finish off stugs or puma's should gain veterancy nice and fast, and have a low mortality rate.
That thing about the croc is hilarious tho, I didn't realize it got a penetration bonus at level 3. Talk about cut'n'pasting the abilities between units.
I don't disagree that 1v1 or really in any game that very cheap Axis veterancy would be rough. It is too broad to just let the whole of the Axis infantry force level up so to speak, at a point where maybe 1 rifle squad out of 4 has veterancy.
Since it's fun to just spitball various crazy veterancy plans.. what if there was just a single level of veterancy at it's current cost for level 1, in the current groupings? And the purpose was to unlock the potential for veterancy in a unit type, but not bestow it? And the xp requirements for axis units to become veterans was like 2/3rds of the allies?
The scenario would be that mid game, you unlock veterancy for troops with a single purchase. Now any volks that have survived that long will have whatever veterancy they achieved bestowed on them. But not every volks in your army will have X veterancy automatically given to them.
It's just a different, probably crazy idea. But I'd really like to see some formula put in place where Axis veterancy was viable in all games, not a nerf of allied veterancy. As you have said in many of your posts, Axis veterancy appears to be designed as a direct counter to equivalent Allied veterancy. Although I'd argue that many of the veterancy bonuses for Axis are ineffective counters, it's still a shame we so rarely see them in effect.
I'd rather Axis just get bonuses the way Allies do. It's simply fair that way. The KKC is a nice try to diversify the two, but it simply doesn't work.
Yeah, the KKC needs to be a little cheaper IMO. However I like the diversification. Remember axis can get bonsus' just like allies, just they need a lot more (8/16/32 compared to 100/200/300).
maybe lower the fuel cost to 5-20 or lower? because i like every difference between both sides, it just needs lower cost to be usefull.
its not just the fact that allies get vet by simply using their units its also the fact that I have to divert manpower to build a damn KKC, then spend more manpower and fuel to upgrade my units by type, It is not possible for an axis player to have a diversified elite force, actually its quite impossible. Whereas allies can very easily achieve a diversified veteran fighting force. I dont care if all my units come out elite once they are upgraded because the smoke will have long cleared and all my units dead before I see a return on the huge investment I just made.
I was thinking that we should buy a "leader" for veterancy. Like DoW, you can buy a squad leader, but in this, you buy a leader and then upgrade him which gives your squad a higher veterancy level.
200 MP for each lvl of veterancy or something, or 100-150-200, 100-200-300.
Should be balanced.
EDIT: Oh, and this way squad size can match Allies. Like Volks will have 6 per squad if you purchased them a leader, on top of that they get 1 star veterancy.
We would be sacrificing future purchasing of squads for veterancy, sounds fair imo.
i think axis buying upgrades is all wrong in the beginning, its simply no goood way to balance baught vet upgrades and attained
Then make it that they need Tier 2 for Veterancy level 1, Tier 3 for Veterancy level 2 and Tier 4 for Veterancy level 3.
I played around with a few builds using Tier 2 and the Kampfkraft Infantry/Weapon Team Upgrades not too long ago. The extra infantry you get from Grens helps grab points and fuel quickly stockpiles, however it's the Manpower costs of the KKC and the upgrades that are the hardest to meet. It doesn't seem like a lot at first glance and the first upgrade comes fairly soon, but when you're trying to pump out as much Infantry as possible (which isn't exactly cheap for the Axis) it's difficult to justify delaying extra squads in favour of veterancy that isn't exactly game changing
The Axis Veterancy that can be obtained from absurd amounts of XP; are they identical to the Allied veterancies? Or just the same as the KKC?
If they're like the Allied Vet, do they stack with KKC bonuses?
Last edited by Fonic; 5th Dec 06 at 1:43 AM. Reason: Great spelling Fonic.
KKC gives axis veterancy, the bonuses are the veterancy bonuses coded in to the unit profile.
Axis Veterancy is stuffed. I think enough of us can agree on that. Lets think about ways it might be changed to become good and a cool feature of the game.
The system needs such an overhaul that nothing much is sacred, however personally I think these two element of Axis veterancy should remain,
i: The fact that it is fundamentally different to Allied veterancy. They are aquired differently and the nature of them is different. Allies have predominantly offensive bonuses while Axis veterans become harder to kill. This is nice, it differentiates the two armies and that is always good. It also fits the real situation nicely.
ii: The idea that the troops you are getting are ordered in from the eastern front. This is a cool idea, I really like it. Problem is when you get the veterancy your existing troops out there on the field get it aswell. If they are supposed to be from the eastern front this does'nt make any sense does it? So...
1. I think it would be cool if when you got the upgrade only the troops you built from then on had veterancy bonuses and the troops that are already on the battlefield did not receive any veterancy upgrades, seeing as they are not from the eastern front. That way it would actually feel as if you the commander had ordered in more experienced forces from other theatres. Veterancy icons could appear in the unit icon when making them in your base. Obviously this would change the way veterancy is used quite abit. Spamming grenadiers and then afterwards realising you wanted them to be vets would be rather bad seeing as you need to research the upgrade before getting the grens if you want them to be vets. Aforethought would be required. You know, a strategy? Whether or not you want to use veterans or not would best be decided before the game, or during a game where you need to change your strategy. At least before you make the units. They would become a part of your strategy, instead of a "I have loads of resources i may as well upgrade my guys sort of thing", whereby the magically gain experience enroute to the front. Buying the upgrade and then not making any of the relevant units thereafter would ofcourse be a waste of money.
Now I know what your thinking, nice enough idea but that makes Axis veterancy even more underpowered than it is now. Well what if the upgrades themselves were better.
2. Make the upgrades noticable in combat. Decent bonuses that the allied player actually has to factor in, instead of saying "oh look, the axis have veterancy. Good he just wasted his money." Make the Veteran Germans noticably better at surviving through a battle, just as the Allies at noticabley more lethal when experienced.
3. At the moment there are 3 different levels of veterancy for 4 unit types. Thats different 12 upgrades, too many. Get rid of the middle one, "crack", and make the Elite level upgrade only avaliable at Tier 4, Battle Phase. These troops are recruited from victorious German units, highly experienced eastern front bastards. Not overpowered, but worth the price. This is suited to longer games when the Germans have escalated the conflict and really want to win, so they bring in there best guys. It also has the side-benefit of encouraging Tier 4 use.
4. Veterancy upgrades do not apply to Volksgrenadiers. Two reasons, firstly it doesn't make sense because the volks are supposed to be newly formed units with little combat experience. Their highly amusing dialogue reflects this. They have not been to the eastern front, or any other battle before. Secondly it encourages the use of Knights Cross Holders, a unit whose role is too similar to the Volks.
Volks can still be used ofcourse, they are cheap and very useful but they are not hardened vets.
5. Tanks and vehicles should recieve upgrades in the normal way because the uprgrade on tanks at least consist of things like the MG on top and the sideskirts. Obviously you don't need to have prior battle experience to sport one of these on your tank so tanks and vehicles should probably just remain the same veterancy wise. Perhaps vehicles and tank veterancy should be incorporated. Get rid of 'Crack' on these guys too.
All of these features can be balanced according to cost vs effectiveness in the usaul way. I just think that as Axis veterancy needs to be fixed anyway so rather than simply lowering costs and/or buffing the bonuses why not add in some elements to improve the current setup?
What do you think of my proposals, which are worth keeping and which are a bad idea?
How do you think Axis veterancy should be changed?
The veterancy thing does need an overhaul.
Personally I think it should be a mixture of the two systems and similar to the way the single player game works.
Once the KKC is built the Axis player can call in a specific veteran unit (equivalent of Crack units) for an increased cost (+25%), but for that unit only. The bonuses Axis get would need to be improved slightly and they should get accuracy bonuses.
Then you could allow the axis to gain veterancy the same as Allies, but at a slightly reduced rate (75% for example). This would mean a one-off payment for the KKC and then you would only pay for the units you want to "buff".
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The strange thing I find about Axis Veterancy is how it fits in with the whole concept of the Axis army, which seems to be all about Specialisation. Obviously getting all of the upgrades is totally unfeasible in any game that isn't going to take 2+ hours, so you would ideally select a veterancy upgrade 'tree' reflecting the unit types you'll be focusing on. I.e. Infantry Upgrades for masses of Volks and Grens (aka. The Sherman bait army). That's the only way to really make the upgrades cost effective; pumping out as many upgraded units as possible.
The only problem with this 'specialisation' is as stated earlier in this thread, the upgrades only really help against a particular type of unit. I.e. the Infantry upgrades only make them more resistant to other infantry, tanks still make mincemeat out of Grenadiers. Perhaps if the upgrades were more selective, and allowed you to choose what aspect of the units stats to improve it would be more feasible.
Say for example, you have 2 different categories: Vehicles and Men. Each of these categories has divisions such as Movement, Attack and Defence, which would then have 3 stages of progression each. So you could be selective with upgrades, e.g. upgrading the movement and turret speed of all tanks and vehicles to tier 2 (crack) whilst increasing the attack of Infantry and Support to tier 3 (Elite).
On second thought these ideas are overcomplicating the issue. The more I think about it, the more I feel that the Veterancy upgrades for Axis could really do with a complete overhaul, which as Victrix suggested, is not going to happen in a patch.
I really dont like the way you guys are trying to re-invent the wheel with this.. All these radical changes to the Axis vetrency arnt required, the current system just needs to be tweaked. I really dont see Relic totally gutting the current system and and making a 180 degree change. Its alot simpler to just improve some of the current values and maybe reduce the costs.
I really like what someone said earlier about the manpower being the biggest expense with the Vetrency upgrades. I noticed this too, becasue it directly effects your production, that hurts. The fuel on the other hand effects your teching, either upgrade your current troops or tech up to get new ones, i like this path alot better. I think a happy medium between the costs of the upgrades and or the abilities these upgrades give can be found with the current system in place.
If for instance Relic made the Shermans main gun so deadly vs infantry because they thought Axis would be using crack infantry that would be so hard to kill, well this obviously is'nt working as they intended.
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