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Inspired by this thread: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=126772
I know that the Blood Ravens were created specifically for Dawn of War, and i now read that this is also the case for the Eldar Bonesingers. What other units and 40k content has appeared first in DoW? Do you think that any of this will eventually make its way to the TT?
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#2
The Blood Ravens were already made apart of the TT game last I checked.
Cool, i had browsed through the GW website but didn't notice them before. So what else originated from DoW? GW doesn't seem to be great on background info (ie "out of character" info), little stuff there.
You sure Adonis? On the GW website in the chapter gallery, Blood Ravens section, is shown a picture of a Blood Raven space marine in-game, DoW
The miniature for the bonesinger has been created after the game but it already existed fluff-wise....
Most (if not all) of the stuff in DoW has already existed in TT. Some of it (Bonesingers) may not have had minis, but that doesn't mean they weren't there.
The one notable exception is the Orca dropship, which was actually created for Fire Warrior and then placed in DoW for the heck of it. Shas'O Kais is another carryover from Fire Warrior.
The Orca was created for Forge World before it was put into DC though, so it had already become an "official" Tau vehicle.
Ah, yes, but if you read the Fire Warrior novel Kais was rendered unfit for combat or even moving at the end, fighting a constant battle in his mind. Secondly the pronunciation is different. In FW it's "Case" but in DC it's "Ky-ees" or however you think the phonetic should be spelled. Finally Kais is a pretty common Tau name.
Right...
Before DC I'd never heard of Vespids but my background info on Tau isn't that great so I dunno.
Nothing comes to mind ATM, everything I think of was there in TT or fluff.
Builder Scarabs for Necrons
Oh yeah, you could say that Relic invented the types of Ork Wartrak and Wartrukk in game, although the units themselves have been around forever (the models just look different). But Ork vehicles aren't meant to all look the same anyway.
And Ork Nob squads don't exist in tabletop except as a retinue for the Warboss, although they probably exist in the fluff (just a group of big Orks that go around together).
#11
As far as i am concerned, that article on US site is not the oldest, not predating DoW, i'm sure..
but meh, i'm wrong so often..
But before DOW, I've never heard about blood ravens, maybe GW created them for DOW, and after make models for it, and put an information to the site.
Deathwatch: vespids were TT about a year before DC came out, so not really made for that.
Blood ravens where created AFTER DoW came out. If you looked at a 3rd edition Spacemarine codex there is no mention of Blood Ravens.
Were chaos cultists ever in the TT?
#17
I thought there was big hoo-haa when DoW came out around the fact that it created an entirely new chapter? (Blood Ravens?)
There's even some tenuous backstory in the manual about why they (conveniently) have no history, stuff like "little is known of the Blood Ravens origin. Their chapter records have long been mysteriously lost...or destroyed."
But meh, whatever.
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Yeah cultists were in the 3rd edition, but the models were pretty bad. GW then stopped selling them, but the rules are still there.
The Blood Ravens, appeared after, in one issue of WD, its a few issues before the one with the printed Index Astartes for them. It states that DOW was supposed to be the Ultramarines but then changed it because relic thought that the ultra's were to defined and not original something like that anyway, and they worked with relic to come up with the blood ravens. The orc vehicles i know there are no models for cept there are similar ones in the Gorkamorka game.
Sorry Adonis, but Blood Ravens were deffinatly created purely for DOW. I wanted to make sure so I dug into my "archive" and now I have an old issue of White Dwarf sitting infront of me that says it.
This is the liberty we won for ourselves. Outer Haven.
I can't find Flash Gitz on the Games-workshop site, and I don't think I've ever heard of them.
-Cultists are in Alpha Legion special rules in CSM codex (3rd ed.)
-Blood Ravens as a chapter were designed for DoW campaign, then Games Workshop developed chapter colour schemes, fluff background, combat doctrines for use in TT
-Vespid were added in 4th edition for The Tau Empire codex but weren't in 3rd edition
-Flash Gitz might be one of the obscure Ork bodyguard units or army specialisations, but Orks do need an update. Perhaps FlashGitz are added in DoW as a preview for 4th ed. Orks?
-SM Force Commander. Don't think he gets referred to as that, or similar, in 3rd edition...
We all know that the Blood Ravens were created for DoW, Adonis just said that they made it to the TT too.
This is getting interesting. I can't find the Flash Gitz either, but the Ork Kommando with big shoota looks almost identical.
No, Adonis was saying they were already in TT, they wearn't. They were in DOW and then TT.
There you goRambocop: Do you think that any of this will eventually make its way to the TT?
Adonis: The Blood Ravens were already made a part of the TT game last I checked.
#25
Adonis was replying to this:
Do you think that any of this will eventually make its way to the TT?
...
Hey look, Adonis was right!
And wouldn't some/most of the buildings be considered Indroduced in DoW?
Flash Gitz were definitely in TT before DoW as the last Ork Codex predates DoW - They're considered an Elite choice. Probably the reason why there are no minis is that the general mentality of Ork TT players that I've seen is that you're supposed to take existing minis and modify them
With regard to Blood Ravens, the Chapter seems to have shown up in the SM codex shortly before the initial release of Dawn of War. They're definitely not in prior editions of the SM Codex. As Relic and GW have a working partnership, I believe that the Blood Ravens were a Chapter invented initially for DoW by GW, who then fleshed out the Chapter a bit more and incorporated it into TT to add to SM "fluff".
Buildings, apart from Eldar Webway Gates and Portals and SM turrets, are indeed original
Yeah Rambo, you're right about the Flash Gitz looking just like the new Kommando models. There have never been any Flash Gitz models made, even though they've been a valid choice in tabletop for years. You just have to convert your own, or represent them with other models.
They even took the "teef" balaclava things from the Kommando models. And the Tankbusta Bombz that the ingame Flash Gitz have on their backpacks (much more Kommando-ey than Flash Gitz).
They still look cool though, but I always imagined Flash Gitz being more "flashy". They're meant to be rich Orks, not just Orks with big guns. Actually I always imagined them looking like the old Ork Freebooter model with the Pirate hat and the big coat.
a1ph4riu5:
Agreed! FG's are all about big, flashy, noisy guns and large amounts of Orky bling
Kommandoz are skilled at stealth and demolitions - would have loved to see them ingame as well. In fact, Tank Bustas in DoW shouldn't even have Infiltration...
Blood Ravens - neither 'created for DoW', nor 'existed in 40k beforehand'. The Ravens were the personal, made-up chapter that one of the game's creators used in TT. There are countless more Space Marine Chapters than have ever been accounted for in any fluff list.
Tau Orca - made by Forgeworld before any other source. Fire Warrior was responsible for hand-held Tau Rail Rifles though. These didn't appear in TT until Fire Warrior was released, and rules were published in a subsequent White Dwarf.
Tau Vespids - Late addition to the Tau Codex, but appeared before DC.
Eldar Bonesinger - appeared in fluff, but never in TT, as they'd serve no real purpose. They're not frontline combatants.
Ork Flash Gitz - these guys are one of the oldest units in 40k, first appearing in Rogue Trader way over 15 years ago. They used to look like a bizarre cross between a pimp and a pirate. And yes, there were models.
The current Ork codex has a lot of crossover between units, a lot of relics of previous ideas, and a load of irrelevant units that don't seem to serve a purpose other than to make the Ork army seem like it has more units than it really does. Now that Tank Bustas are the 'sneak in and break stuff' unit, Kommandos are largely obsolete, and a remnant of the old Ork clan/unit system that got scrapped after 2nd edition. Skarboyz are much the same. Ork Stickbombaz and Trukkaboyz are just sluggas with extra gear, trying to convince us they're really valid and important 'additions' to the Ork army.
Necron Scarab Builders - never been mentioned in fluff before, although really just supposed to be big scarabs. As they stand, however, DC is their first appearance.
Space Marine Force Commander - Commander is the term for the leader of a Chapter, though 3rd edition 40k tended to make a mess of much of the marine's formations and structure, and a lot of terms for specific positions held by 1 individual ended up as the generic term for the 3 wound-variant army leader, like Dark Angel's Grand Master.
Chaos Cultists - these guys have always been around in fluff, and were fieldable in Rogue Trader. They appeared in a back-up army list in the 2nd Edition Chaos Codex, and were a White Dwarf addition to any Chaos army in 3rd edition. In the current Codex, Cultists are bizarrely Alpha Legion only, despite Word Bearers being the most widespread proponents of Cults to the Ruinous Powers.
Created by an employee of GW initially as a personal army and then established and fleshed out as official cannon for TT and DoW around the same time.Originally Posted by Decadence
About the buildings, the SM and Chaos HQ were instantly familiar to me the moment i first played DoW, i have no idea why. Are they tottaly original, not even present in any artwork? Mybe it is just deja-vu
On Flash Gitz: that makes sense, according to DoW, Flash Gitz are all about heavily customized weapons, so if you want to play them you need to do the same! Though it sounds like the Ork codex is in major need of renewal.
The Blood Ravens, as i see it, it is valid to say that they were created for the game, because they didn't officialy exist before DoW. Relic and GW needed to create an new army, so one of their guys (probably someone whose job is to design armies and fluff and would have done it for DoW anyway) said, 'here, take mine'. So before DoW, the Blood Ravens existed only in someone's head and miniature display, like any other custom army that many TT players have.
I think it is also safe to say that they wouldn't create a new chapter just for the TT if there wasn't for DoW. Have they done so for any other 40k or even WFB videgame in the past?
Thanks for the great info everyone, keep it coming!
I've also noticed that the flashgitz resemble, in function if not neccesarily in appearance, the Deathskull Lootaz from 3rd edition. These bad boyz could be outfitted with 'Kustom Shootas' that gave my smurfs no end of trouble... my best mate was the luckiest git you ever saw, hence 3rd edition orks was a good army choice for him. So, perhaps the flashgitz are the spiritual successors to the Lootaz?
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Both Flash Gitz and Deathskull Lootas still exist. Gitz are beefed up shootas, Lootas are beefed up heavy weapons.
They've also both existed since Rogue Trader. Originally, though, Deathskull Lootas were just 'Deathskulls'. Orks originally had 6 clans that comprised their units, and gave them their character. In 3rd edition, they dropped the necessity for clans, and turned each of them into normal, non-clan units instead.
So the Goffs became Skarboyz, the Deathskulls became Lootas, the Blood Axes became Kommandos, the Snake Bites pretty much got removed and swept into the 'Feral Ork' lists, the Bad Moons' signature gear just became normal Ardboyz and Mega Nobz, and the Evil Sunz became the Speed Freakz list, and the units associated with it (Trakkz, Trukka Boyz, Bikes, etc).
I agree the Ork list is in need of an overhaul, removing some of their conflicting or just plain obsolete units.
They might be based on earlier material. Eons ago GW released a series of cardboard buildings (of which I cannot find images on the net) which did look similar to some some of the Space Marine/Chaos buildings.
I have the Imperial battle bunker, and it is of the same general layout as the Space marine HQ buildings. There also was an Imperial firebase, the only detail of it I remember was that it had a landing pad, and a third building of which I cannot remember at all.
So maybe it it deja vu.
I noticed that the TT Avatar has been buffed compared to the previous edition. Is this anything to do with Relic having made it an uber-unit or had such plans to buff it always been around.
Basically, I thought, at the time, perhaps GW were inspried somewhat by the DoW Avatar and thus took his more pwerful status to create a TT super unit. How does he compare to editions before the previous one too? I have heard that, 'in the beginning,' so to speak, he was merely powerful Eldar sized model. (I was given the impression he would have been like some sort of super-Autarch, but I'm not sure tbh)
Just throwing it out there since although it's not an introduction, per se, it would be cool if Relic's decision to make the Avatar 'uber' did the same to the TT.
Also, I believe (if it hasn't been metnioned) the FPS Fire Warrior led to Rail Rifles becoming TT weapons.
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K'tan.
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The Avatar, and the four Chaos Greater Daemons, were originally the most powerful things in TT, by a large margin. They had very close to straight 10 stat lines (the maximum possible). Then came 3rd edition, and the game was in general toned down. the Greater Daemons (including the Avatar) became garbage. Some were worth the meagre point paid for them (a mere 80 points for a T5 Great Unclean One), but they didn't seem to be what the were supposed to be according to fluff.
4th Edition buffed them a bit, but they're still largely rubbish. The Bloodthirster is a weak flying Dreadnought, and is still the best of the 5. The Lord of Change is just flat out awful, being far inferior with psychic attacks than a regular Chaos Sorceror Lord.
Their main problems are that their stats are weak compared to other things (they're all weaker than a Dreadnought, and only the Bloodthirster is as strong as a regular marine with a power fist), they lack enough attacks to avoid getting bogged down in combat against units of half their cost, and they have very few (if any) special rules or options. Coupled with the fact that you have to kill off one of your own Chaos characters to get one out (except the Avatar, who has to walk from deployment to the enemy), and then once out they get shot by everything and tend to die in one volley of fire, they're really not 'uber' in any sense of the word. They're really just slightly more reliable, slightly less offensive Dreadnoughts, and Dreadnoughts aren't even good to begin with.
Forgeworld have begun making much larger (and generally more impressive) Greater Daemon models, and these are coupled with rules for 'Greater' versions of them, which are usually a bit more powerful, but still a tad crapand not worth their points.
Best reason to buy a Greater Daemon (whether GW or Forgeworld) isn't to field them, but to have a cool model.
Yep, I mentioned this in a previous post.Also, I believe (if it hasn't been metnioned) the FPS Fire Warrior led to Rail Rifles becoming TT weapons
It may be a little spammy to say so, but I found that very interesting, thank you.
No problem.
Here's a link to the Forgeworld page with the 3 Greater Daemon resin kits. The Lord of Change hasn't been released yet, and the resin Avatar model is on the Eldar page. I warn you, the Forgeworld webserver is slow as all hell.
EDIT - Forgeworld really doesn't seem to like linking to...
Just type Forgeworld into Google/Yahoo, and enter the Catalogue. They're under Imperial Armour/Chaos/Chaos Vehicles and Accessories.
The original Avatar model was much smaller though, even though it was very powerful. It was one of my first models. A bit taller than an ordinary Eldar, mainly because of the head dress. Other than that it looked pretty much like the current Avatar, except it had the Wailing Doom as a large spear and wore a cape like Superman.
I think the model you're talking about was actually an Epic/Titan sale Avatar, not a WH40k one. I may be mistaken though.
The original Chaos Greater Daemons were tiny though. And awful. The Bloodthirster looked like he was grinning, the Lord of Change was bizarrely buff, and the Great Unclean One wasn't so much hideous, as adorable.
I believe that the Blood Ravens are just one of the second founding chapters of the overall Blood Angels chapters, I think they are there if you look in the Blood Angels codex.
Also, there was a comic that originally came out in Inferno that featured a Blood Ravens commander I believe, well before DoW ever came out.
Also, wartrak and wartrukk are featured pretty prominantly in Gorka-Morka (awesome game). There is very little that appears in DoW that isn't somewhere in the 40k universe already.
Perhaps my google-fu is simply quite weak but I cannot find examples of these old models you describe, and they sound hilarious - I'm bored and want to see just what they look like! Are you speaking completely from memory or is there an archive somewhere?
I think the SM HQ has a fairly close resemblance to the SM battlebarge or one of their starships from BFG.
Death holds no fear only for the fool. An Astartes' duty is to control that fear and turn it into a blind hatred of the end of his life, for it brings with it the inability to fulfil his duty to the Emperor.
The Blood Ravens aren't a 2nd Founding Blood Angels Chapter.
The 2nd Founding Chapters of the original Blood Angels Legion are the Blood Angels (of course), Flesh Tearers, Angels Vermillion, Angels Sanguine, Blood Drinkers, and Angels Encarmine.
You could get Bonesingers in the TT, I think they were part of the exodite list at one poin, But you just had to convert them (not that unusual!) There pictures of them about.. They looked like farseers a bit (and they do now!)
Incidentally Bonesingers can fight in DoW: they have a Sword.. put them on attack stance and you'll laugh yourself silly.
I think the "best" example of something-being-finally-what-it-was-supposed-to-be is the Fire Prisms. They blew on the TT rules. They finally appeard in DoW as the mother of all nastiness they were always supposed to be.
just a few additions to what decadence said:
In the old 2nd ed. rules characters with good wargear were not much weaker than a greater daemon in TT (in melee that is).
As an example: Still the strongest SM of all time is Blood Angels' Librarian Mephiston (Wiith his WH Fantasy Vampire Lord Profile [better than SM Captain/Commander] i.e. Move 6 Str 10 by PSI weapon and whatnot) and good wargear for a Special Character. That coupled with 5 spells (old psi was more like WH fantasy spells, easily killing whole regiment, specially with the inquisition deck) and you had the uber psyker/killing machine.
basically if you only know third ed wh40k you need to know that in 2nd ed it was easily possible for a buffed character model to kill a whole squad of elites alone in one melee phase ^^. The same ofc applied to a 10 attacks blood thirster or any other greater daemon/avatar. But they had the drawback of being quickly turned to ashes by heavy weapon squad (one good plasmacannon hit or even a good hit with an assault cannon could kill such a model). Also they couldnt attach to squads cause of size and thus didn't have the additional meat shield quality regular character models had (try hitting a strong character hiding in a squad of relatively cheap units, which could use the character LD value of usually 10 -.-)
knowing that you may see why greater daemons were pretty pointless.
but back on topic: except for support units like the bonesinger no units were invented for dow or transported from dow to TT. The Blood Ravens are just a colour scheme after all. Well HWS are not entrenched or anything in TT, thats kinda new in DoW. But the other way around there seem to be no carry overs (except said colour scheme)
Oh and on Fire Prisms:
in 2nd Ed WH40K They were incredibly strong. theoretically a blast could kill a whole squad of character models -.- And ofc EVERY vehicle (they hit every position due to template. that meant you could try 4 rolls to kill a vehicle with 4 hardpoints (i.e. turret, hull, l+r sponsons) for example and each with enough pierce value to blow any armor.
A few things were made ridiculously weak while introduction of 3rd ed rules. Among these is terminator armour, assault cannons in all manifestations and generally vehicle armor
some thinga were changed afterwards, some things even in WD rule fixes and whatnot. others (like still sucky assault cannons) were not.
in 4th ed Assault cannons are strong again
the presence is important
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It was originally released as a 40k model, although it could be used in Epic scale also (which made it look huuuge and impressive). It's in the 1991 catalogue 40k Eldar section, not the Epic section at the back.I think the model you're talking about was actually an Epic/Titan sale Avatar, not a WH40k one. I may be mistaken though.
Yep, 2nd Ed 40K wasn't a strategy game. It was a contest to see who could create the most unbalanced character and abuse the rules most thoroughly.
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