[DC 1.11 Auto] IG < Orks, IG < Eldar

[OVFellblade]

Two of my losses for people to watch and tear apart my play, if they would be so kind!

IG < Ork, Quest's Triumph
If one thing lost this match for me, I think it was failure to get a bassy. 2 Nob squads + MANZ = huge pain for IG, unless you break them up. I'm not too sure what else I did wrong on this one. There were some micro screw-ups, but I'm slowly getting better, and there were a couple of uncovered points that I should have scouted / decapped / capped.


IG < Eldar, Battle Marshes
The Eldar went for a GU harass, while teching for Falcons and then onto Warp Spiders and Wraithlords. Once a 3-squad WS mass hit, I didn't feel like there was a damn thing I could do... so... what did I do wrong?

I used a tactica build to get GLs / scan for the anticipated Rangers - naturally, he didn't actually use them (damn). I also had a turret up next to a crit anticipating Rangers. A foray into his base @ about 5:00 with two GM squads with grenades finished off his GU force but was then screwed by his falcon tanks appearing. Upgrading the turret that I built next to the crit to use missiles allowed me to fend off the Falcons. What surprised me was just how fast a FD squad nails a turret. Very, very fast. 3 full GU squads (with a couple of heavy weps) firing at a single Firedragon squad in cover failed to kill a single one. I should have CCed them, in hindsight. Doh. If I had put the pressure on more at around the ten minute mark I might have stood a chance, but I actually assumed that he would have WS ready for me, and tried to tech to T3 to get some LR out.

He attacked on one flank, I countered on the other, but he swiftly moved around and then teleported 3 WS squads in behind my GMs, cutting off their route to the nearby cover, and then slaughtering them. It was gg pretty much there and then.



Any and all comments on macro / micro / BO would be most welcome.

[Chris]

A single basilisk won't do jack against a huge mass of nobz and MANZ, they have far too many hitpoints to be worried about 1 basilisk. In addition, shooting at units that are attemtping to swamp you in CC tends to bring the friendly fire into effect. You need a large amount of executed plasma to deal with the nobz in my opinion, executed HWT help too but I find the mek + his boyz have a habbit of teleporting right ontop of them.

What you did wrong vs eldar was attempt to use a tactica build. They are the purest form of theorycraft and are never going to work. There really isn't a solution vs eldar except just hope your opponent is a complete idiot. HARD tech to chimera spam might catch them out on a large-ish map but never twice in a row. On a map like this where you can be pushed down to 3 strat points your economy won't support a chimera strategy for very long.

[OVFellblade]

A single basilisk won't do jack against a huge mass of nobz and MANZ, they have far too many hitpoints to be worried about 1 basilisk.

I was thinking more of the disruption, breaking up the mass, or possible earthshaker usage with a kamikazi GM squad to tie up the orks. And executed plasma is going to be stopping working soon, as is executed HWTs

There really isn't a solution vs eldar except just hope your opponent is a complete idiot.

Aw, come on, a little more optimism

[Chris]

Earthshaker would be good yes, if you can land it. Personally I use earthshakers to annihilate banner/generator farms. With orks you can nail banners AND generators because they are often put in the same place.

Aw, come on, a little more optimism

I don't see the point. We could go on for 10 pages of theorcraft or we could just accept the fact that this matchup is going to be broken until either eldar or IG (or both) get a total makeover.

[Belgarion]

No hes right. Just look at 4servants replays Vs Das Cap'n.
The Orky replay was a little strange cos he didnt even make shootas which would have been worse for you

[Old Painless]

Fellblade, about 30 seconds after you started the T3 research in both games you got hit by a load of T2 stuff.

Your spending 300/300 on T3 and there spending that on troops, thats why your dying, that and not massing GM enough.

No execute = lose.

[Lone]

Execute is quite simply MASSIVE!! IG DPS doesn't seem like much without special weapons, but execute doesn't increase it by an incriment, it DOUBLES it. A fully reinforced, executed GM squad can, I believe, take on a full SM tactical squad, and it will drop Orks in seconds as they run at you. You need to out squad him so that you can dance your units effectively and still fire at him. for example if you have 3 squads and he has 2, try to form a triangle around his squads to keep your men spread out and harder to tie up. Just keep 2 squads moving at all times while the other shoots in. As I always say I'm no IG expert, but that's just a general point on dancing. As for the MU against Eldar, Lazerflip from DoWSanc (currently top in automatch) put it very nicely, saying "By the time an Eldar can have critical mass of Warp Spiders, the IG should be Tier 3, at least, and have an econ of about 150. Basilisk + turrets + LP2s + HWT means you can't attack an IG base. It's littered with deadly things." I know Rangers are a pain in the arse, I'm trying to utilise builds without including them at the moment, but an early turret will keep them out (I don't like to say it, I think early turrets ruin the game, mind you I think what I quoted from Lazer ruins the game, I don't want there to be a base I can't attack :P) Try to play nice and turret one of YOUR strategic points. Your example game was on Battle Marshes, I'd suggest turreting the point furthest from, but inside your territory (so the SP to the south if you are in position 1, to the north if you are in position 2) as this is usually the first point an eldar player will harass with rangers because its the least likely to have a listening post built on it being furthest away. Its also said by many players not to bother with a psyker as his detection is meaningless if you can't catch the rangers, but I'd suggest a psyker, and an IC that can see 2 of your points. Get the psyker to stand nearby so bunkered GM can kill harassing rangers. Make a push for both relics but don't make either a priority, as you are strictly speaking a defensive race. IG can get a strong economy on very little points. As Lazer said, make your base unassailable and launch raids (backed up by Basilisks as soon as you can get them) on the relics and crits (if you don't have them captured). Once your 4 points are secured (IC the 2 closest to your base, turret the one furthest and capture/LP the one in the forest bit to the side first) you should have the resources to build a priest in your CS, so go and harass some points with CS and a GM squad to deny him some resources. You are basically looking to out tech him so attack gens where possible.
That's for early game, as for later on... Expect WS to jump through the middle of the map and attack your base, falcons as well (no one uses vypers with their appauling accuracy atm) use you're initiative here, I don't play IG so bunkering is the only suggestion I can offer. And also, if the Eldar has FDs his Warp Spiders will be delayed a couple of minutes. Use every second you have because there's not much you can do to beat them without Lemans (against which they are 100% useless without haywires) once he hits critical mass. Personally I don't think WS are hideously imba, but they need a nerf either in HP/defence, DPS vs infantry or fubar teleport.

[Varsis]

Not much to say besides whats been said. For the orks I probably would've tried for hellhounds and psykers for the BM. Executed squads against the nobs and pray you have bassi by the time he has flash gits. I think you let the nobs pull you into CC too often and that's not nice.

In the Eldar match I think the Tac build is very interesting and has some promise. But you either need more heroes or an IC at some point. HWT are just too good to pass up against Eldar. And if I out man the Eldar (not your situation) I try to CC the GS and WS. Mind you they probably won't beat them and won't last long without support, but they'll last longer than they would being shot at. Sents were a good choice but you seem overly concerned with capping rather than harrassment. Even if you wanted to cap that CP and Relic, your sents could've taken out the turret at the front of his base while you waited and retreated when he showed up. The WS teleport might've caught em but they wouldn't have caught your GM and massacred them as happened.
I was thinking about if it would be viable to use a Tac build and while one GM squad caps points, two GM squads go in to kill the BS to slow down his building. Not sure how well it would work though, since those turrets take your guys down pretty fast. But if your multitasking is good enough, it might distract him long enough to win map control and box him in.

[OVFellblade]

Thank you for the feedback everyone. Good point about the sents taking out the LP and then pulling back, Varsis.

*slaps self on forehead*

Thou shalt not abandon thy shiney heavy cover.