Black Library Book Review/Discussion (previously Best 40k Books II)

[Verikus]

Finished reading it and here's what I have to say without spoilers:

If you are new to 40k books, you should get this. It gives you a good angle on the space-marines and their style of combat, as well as a basic (yet awesome) understanding of the all-confusing subject of the warp.

I think it's a great addition to the HH novels, simply because it goes into how deep of an impact it was for individual space marines on the effects of the heresy, and how not all marines of certain legions become Insta-Traitor


Very very action packed. Space warfare as well as ship boarding actions. Warp space battles are...very well written. I thought over all it was pretty well developed character wise, but there was a bit of a blue ball at the end (as was written in previous review)

quote of the day?

"Word Bearer, you talk to much..."

Questions though...

QUESTIONS for fluff-police

When did the Thousand Sons go traitor in relation to this book?

Do the space wolves know that the emperor is a psyker, and that other Marine legions use librarians?

Were the word bearers the first to go traitor?

[Hammerdrake]

The new rulebook seems more focused on current and impending events than any GW sourcebook I can remember. Has there been any announcement or discussion on a novel series that is set in a "current" or "real" time? Go ahead and correct any incorrect assumptions I've made.

Thanks!

[Andkat]

Actually, all of the significant additions of the rulebook to the Imperium's timeline (the references to the waning light of the Astronomican, the flaws in the Golden Throne, etc.) predate the 13th Black Crusade (which, if memory serves, did have an associated novel or two) and the Medusa Campaign. They all address the recent past with respect to the "modern" Warhammer 40,000 universe. The whole "Time of Ending" thing simply appends a GRIMDARK title to the past few centuries of M41, which has been the focus and "present" of the Warhammer 40,000 Universe for the past four editions. The rulebook simply places somewhat greater emphasis whole "everyone is doomed in the grim dark future where there is only war" motif that has been a staple of the universe since its inception. Serieses like the Ultramarines, Gaunt's Ghosts, the Armageddon War books, etc. would all provide a picture of the "Time of Ending" that the 5th ed. book focuses on and fleshes out, as would countless other Warhammer 40,000 novels.

[Hammerdrake]

Okay, thanks! But what is considered the leading edge or most recent history? What would be upcoming that would be considered to be the "in the future" of right now?

[DeusImperator]

I saw many people whining at the Space Wolf novels.

The problem is, that the first four Space Wolf series were written at the same time as the first Gaunt's Ghosts and the Inquisition War by Ian Watson, during the First or Second edition of 40k.

So propably Rubric marines were just invented at that time, or might have been the invention of the writer... I do not know. The Sons of Fenris and Wolf's Honour are much newer novels, written by a different author.
I also heard that the Imperial Fists were first mentioned by Ian Watson too.

And who said it where that Space Marines do not live in their armour? Never heard about such a thing.
Anywhere where they are mentioned, they rarely take off their armour. The Iron Snakes of Dan Abnett go as far as living in their armour for a decade... but those are an exceptional group, I admit.

[ChaosReigns]

A quick question for anyone who can answer it here.

Has anyone read "Dark Apostle"? Was the book enjoyable? Can anyone give me a quick run down of the pros and cons?

[Nashnir]

I dunno whether this is an appropriate topic here and I also tried the search function but couldn't find any answer( I am bad at search )

I just wanted to know the order in which to read the Ciaphas Cain series.

[Mechanicus]

Well, by order of release:

Hero of the Imperium (Omnibus with three novels and three short stories)
Sector 13 (Short story in Hero of the Imperium)
Death or Glory
Duty Calls
Cain's Last Stand

In chronological order:

Fight or Flight (Short story in Hero of the Imperium)
Sector 13 (Short story in Bringers of Death)
Death or Glory
The Beguiling (Short story in Hero of the Imperium)
Echoes of the Tomb (Short story in Hero of the Imperium)
For the Emperor (Novel in Hero of the Imperium)
Caves of Ice (Novel in Hero of the Imperium)
Duty Calls
The Traitor's Hand (Novel in Hero of the Imperium)
Cain's Last Stand

Your choice - the narrative from the editor, Inquisitor Amberly, works best in order of release, but it is possible to read it chronologically as well.

[TimW]

Read Hero of the Imperium, then wait for them to release a second omnibus with the latter three novels.

[Andkat]

As this is more of a general question regarding the structure of a Black Library series than an actual, in-depth discussion of the fluff and plot of a Black Library novel, it belongs in the Black Library Review/Discussion thread. Threads merged.

[Steel*Faith]

Could anyone help me? I'd like to start reading WH40k novels and lore more. I'm trying to find as much info on the Tau Empire in particular, and i'm interested with any material that involves the Tau.

I'd like to read something that pits Deathwatch and the Tau Empire against each other, but I haven't found anything involving either. If anyone could direct me to anything Tau related I would really appreciate it.

[Mokino]

The only Tau centric book I know of is Fire Warrior and it's pretty terrible.

That being said, the Tau do feature prominently in For the Emperor, the first Ciaphis Cain novel.

The only major Tau information book is seriously their codex.

[Robert Frazer]

There hasn't been a story yet published which involves Tau forces and the Deathwatch butting heads, Paladin Might, but there are other places where and situations in which the Tau have been featured!

-The two Tau Codices - the Third Edition Codex Tau and the Fourth Edition Codex Tau Empire - are the foundation primers and have general information about their history and society. The Fourth and Fifth Edition rulebooks also have short introductions to the race.

-A section of the Xenology background book discusses Tau physiology.

-Forge World's Imperial Armour Vol. III - The Taros Campaign shows the Tau Empire at war, with a 'pseudohistory' of a border squabble with the Imperium as part of their Third Sphere expansion.

-The Tau do have active roles in several Black Library novels. These include Sandy Mitchell's For the Emperor, Gav Thorpe's Kill Team, Simon Spurrier's Fire Warrior (the novelisation of the video game) and Andy Hoare's Rogue Star and Star of Damocles. Hoare's novels are insipid and uninspiring and to be avoided; however, Spurrier's book is a thoroughly enjoyable read which greatly elevates and ensouls the source material, and is one that I'd certainly highly reccomend. The Tau will also be antagonists in the upcoming fifth Ultramarines novel by Graham McNeill, Courage and Honour, which is due for release next June.

-The Tau also participate in Boom! Studios' comic miniseries, Fire and Honour, although they're presented as straightforward enemies and there's little meditation on their society.

I hope that helps.

(EDIT: corrected the Rogue Star/Star of Damocles author.)

[Andkat]

In addition to what Rob listed, Forgeworld's Tactica Aeronautica, an expansion to it's Aeronautica Imperialis atmospheric combat war-game, describes a full campaign that pits the Tau Empire against the Imperium. Naturally, both the core rulebook and the expansion also contain various descriptions of Tau atmospheric craft, but these probably won't be of overly great interest unless you really want to go into the specifics of specialized Tau fluff and technology. The Battlefleet Gothic Tau armylist, which can be found for free on the GWI website, contains quite a bit of useful information regarding the interstellar capabilities, fleet composition, etc. of the Tau Empire. The GWI site used to have a few interesting fluff-articles but they were lost with the company's relatively recent website update, at least to my knowledge. You could still find the cached pages on google or look them up in an internet archive, though.

[Mirehn_Bielann]

Rob, don't forget the Tau are involved in For the Emperor, which is a Ciaphas Cain novel.

[Steel*Faith]

The Tau will also be antagonists in the upcoming fifth Ultramarines novel by Graham McNeill, Courage and Honour

Wow I can't wait for this! My two favorites in one novel. I'm definitely anticipating this now. Thanks for all the info and help guys. I might as well go get some of these novels now before DoW II comes out. College & DoW II, are going to leave little time for anything else.

[Doombringer126]

I'd just like to chime in to point out that Anthony Reynolds didn't actually write Rogue Star or Star of Damocles - the author of those two novels was actually Andy Hoare, the codex-writer himself.

So while they may be "insipid and uninspiring", the novels do go into a great bit of detail about the Tau's initial relations with the Imperium, leading all the way into the spearheading of the Damocles Gulf Crusade, whilst lightly touching on the Tau Empire's more "sinister" diplomatic policies.

Rogue Star

Basically, the Tau coerce two rival Imperial systems into warring with one another through the secretive mutual promise of mercenary and logistical support. Once the Tau have completely monopolized the two systems' respective militaries and economies, their plans are to move in and force total annexation on the Imperial worlds (that is, until their plans are foiled by the onset of the Damocles Gulf Crusade).

It also confirms certain frequently asked questions about Puretide's direct mentorship of Farsight and Shadowsun - yes, they were both indeed alive during the Damocles Gulf Crusade meaning Farsight's no longer unique in the fact that he's going on 300 years old; Shadowsun's right there alongside him.

[Steel*Faith]

That novel sounds interesting. Is action primarily taking place in space craft?

[Ultramarines726]

I can't find a forum that talks about WH40K that's not about the games or tabletop so here goes:

I am very interested in the Tyranids and I want to find books that deal with that race specifically. I am particularly interested in the Hive Fleet Behemoth, since it deals with Ultramarines which is my favorite Chapter of SM. Thanks for any help you can give me.

[deathwings]

I can't find a forum that talks about WH40K that's not about the games or tabletop so here goes:

Thread moved to the correct forum

[Brenil]

I saw many people whining at the Space Wolf novels.

The problem is, that the first four Space Wolf series were written at the same time as the first Gaunt's Ghosts and the Inquisition War by Ian Watson, during the First or Second edition of 40k.

So propably Rubric marines were just invented at that time, or might have been the invention of the writer... I do not know. The Sons of Fenris and Wolf's Honour are much newer novels, written by a different author.
I also heard that the Imperial Fists were first mentioned by Ian Watson too.

And who said it where that Space Marines do not live in their armour? Never heard about such a thing.
Anywhere where they are mentioned, they rarely take off their armour. The Iron Snakes of Dan Abnett go as far as living in their armour for a decade... but those are an exceptional group, I admit.

First off, I read the entire trilogy of the Space Wolves and disliked all three of them (the first one was the one I disliked the least), not because of the fluff mistakes (which admittedly there weren't many), but because:

- Lifeless and dull characters
- Horrible pacing
- Completely uninteresting main character
- Repetitive combat scenes
- Terrible, terrible, terrible plots
- Predictable outcomes
- Worst dialogue I've read in a 'professional' novel

I could go on, but there's really no need to. The novels were just dull, uninteresting, and didn't flesh out anything that I could care about. The enemies were almost cartoonish (particularly the daemon of Nurgle, good Lord...) and the overall plots of each was just downright unbelievable even for an unbelievable setting like Warhammer 40k.

It's not whining when talking about a book to say what the reader thinks it does badly. I've read almost all Black Library's novels and so far those three were by far and away the worst novels I've read. I couldn't recommend people stay away from them fast enough. Age has nothing to do with it, lack of quality does.

[nareik123]

You like Ultramarines?
You like Tyranids?
Warriors of Ultramar is for you! I would seriously recommend buying it, even if it features Fleet Leviathan instead of Fleet Behemoth.

[SteveO86]

I kind of went in a different direction with the Space Wolves novels... weren't they comedies?

Ragnar and his buddies sure did alot of joking around, even in the midst of battles.. It just didn't seem like a "serious" 40k novel to me.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=210305

Out of all the races, I find the DE are featured the least. Does anyone know of any good novels on the Dark Eldar; one about Asdrubael Vect would be awesome.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Asdrubael_Vect

[Pocktio]

There are Dark Eldar in 'Nightbringer', 'Dark Disciple', 'Relentless', 'Iron Snakes' and the short story books like 'Galaxy in flames'.

All of them are cameos though, I've not encountered novels dedicated to them but I've certainly not listed all the novels which do contain cameos.

[Andkat]

DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr and Ultramarines726's WH40k Book threads merged into the Black Library Book Discussion Thread. Remember, discussions generally addressing Black Library's 40k novels belong in the Black Library Book/Review Discussion sticky.

[Doombringer126]

@ Paladin Might

Yeah, the primary action taking place so far in the Rogue Star series is naval warfare, but there are a few notable instances of fierce melees and even a few gunfights.

A good bit of detail of the Damocles Gulf Crusade, actually, and hopefully the third novel comes out soon because I'm dying to see/read about the action on Dal'yth from a ground-pounder's perspective.

[Pocktio]

My main problem with the first 3 Space Wolf novels was how it was 'Ragnar saw the enenmy, Ragnar knew he had to engage them so Ragnar loaded his weapons. Thinking of the Emperor Ragnar charged the enemies. Ragnar thought this could be the last time Ragnar ever saw the skies of Fenris but Ragnar knew it would be ok because Ragnar had been imbued with the seed of Russ and was called Ragnar.

Nearly had a brain aneurism counting the # of times the author should have used a preposition.

[DoMiNaNt_HuNtEr]

Pocktio, if you've read all these, which one would you recommend the most? The only one I know about is Nightbringer, which I think I should read because Necrons are featured. I know of it because I read the sequel, which I thought was alright.

Has anyone ever read the book Daemon World by Ben Counter? 'Cause I have, and I fuckin' loved it!

Daemon World is about- you guessed it! An ex Eldar world in the Eye of Terror, now inhabited by a mini empire of humans devoted to Slaanesh, plus the local populace of savages. Basically, its a cool read, awesome characters.

[Brenil]

Daemonworld was definately one of Ben Counter's best novels, but really after reading all of his novels... that's not saying much. I think Ben Counter is one of the most overrated authors for Black Library, he tends to go into so much detail of description that only he knows what's he's describing (weird, huh?), nowhere is this more prominenant than in Daemonworld.

Daemonworld is worth the read, but it's fairly difficult to stay with given the subject matter (and aforementioned writing problems therein) and basically requires a vivid imagination just to visualize most of the novel itself. Yet, the story, the characters, the pacing, and the overall plot is pretty good and place it as the best novel Ben Counter has written, if I may say so myself. The rest of his novels are okay (First two novels in the Grey Knights series & Galaxy in Flames) to blah (Battle for the Abyss & Daemonhammer).

I kind of went in a different direction with the Space Wolves novels... weren't they comedies?

Ragnar and his buddies sure did alot of joking around, even in the midst of battles.. It just didn't seem like a "serious" 40k novel to me.

No, unfortunately, he was being dead serious and those bits of jokes were meant to show how close the characters were with each other and how much their death was supposed to affect you. Obviously, he failed miserably. He even made inquisitiors uninteresting, how the hell do you do you even do that?

[Shoota Fodder]

Just gave up on Battle For The Abyss. Only about 80 pages to go as well, but really, It was boring as hell. Ben Counter is a good writer. Just not an amazing one.

[Brenil]

Here I was begining to think I was the only one, Shoota. I thought Battle For the Abyss was the worst novel in the whole Horus Hersey series (yes even worse than Descent of Angels).

[SteveO86]

Quote:I kind of went in a different direction with the Space Wolves novels... weren't they comedies?

Ragnar and his buddies sure did alot of joking around, even in the midst of battles.. It just didn't seem like a "serious" 40k novel to me.



No, unfortunately, he was being dead serious and those bits of jokes were meant to show how close the characters were with each other and how much their death was supposed to affect you. Obviously, he failed miserably. He even made inquisitiors uninteresting, how the hell do you do you even do that?

Hahaha, Out of every 40k book I have read (and I have read quite a few of them so say the least).... If The Space Wolves were ment to be taken seriously.... I am now speechless............ lol

I mean what about in the third novel when they are protecting the Spear of Russ and Ragnar's buddy runs out of ammo and desides to throw the gun and the Heretics, and Ragnar makes the joke/comment "You have found a new way fo fighting the enemy", I was ment to take that seriously coming from a Space Marine..?? (maybe it was my mind frame when I read the book)

I found the Ciaphas Cain novels on a more serious tone then the Space Wolve novels, and 90% of the time he is a corwardly commissar trying his damnest to get away from the action.

[Svartmetall]

posting from the hell that is work

I gave up on C. S. Goto's Blood Ravens anthology after about 50 pages; it's unreadably bad, absolutely atrocious in every way. Never before have I encountered a book that is such an irredeemable pile of amateurish fanboy tripe that I've been left with no option than to throw it into a recycling bin (no, really). I found myself genuinely wondering how on earth it got published...

[SteveO86]

C.S. Goto and books have been discussed plenty in this thread hes probably got a few pages of the thread himself (or maybe it was the first 40k book thread).

Anyone notice how we really haven't seen any new books from him lately and how he's been exlcuded from the Horus Heresy series lol

[Brenil]

Only thing I've read of C.S. Goto (I've purposely avoided his novels based on his reputation) was The Tower shortstory from Let the Galaxy Burn. His writing ability isn't really in question (at least in this short story), only his ability to make a plot that actually makes sense. If you've read the aforementioned shortstory, it's actually pretty well done in writing ability, just the whole plot once its revealed makes almost zero sense.

Perhaps that was one of his better works or the problem with his novels is mostly the inability to weave a coherent story.

[Hodgeh MkII]

Still, that doesn't answer the question of how his works got published in the first place, or, how he continued to write for BL.

[SteveO86]

His Necromunda novel, Salvation wasn't too bad, better then his DoW Books.

[Brenil]

I didn't mean to imply that it did answer the question. Yet, if it sales, why would BL care? They make money from how many books they sale, not the quality of them.

[EPIK WIN]

I wanted an introduction into WH40K fluff, so I heard that the book "Let the Galaxy Burn" was a good compilation. I figured it would be a good sampling of fluff from throughout the universe.

After thumbing through it, it seems that it is almost exclusively about the Imperium (mostly, if not all Space Marines). I check the Black Library website, and find that all their books are Imperium related.

So my question is are there any books or stories NOT about the space marines/IG/Inquisition/Heresy? Is there some book about, I don't know, a Tau cleansing of a Ork infested planet, or a Dark Eldar raid on an unsuspecting craftworld, or an Eldar suppression of a Necron uprising, or a small group of Orks putting up a final stand against a massive Tyranid swarm?

I have nothing against stories about Space Marines, but it seems like the WH40K universe has plenty of inspiration to draw from for authors to do stories JUST about the Imperium

[KhorneBerzerker]

Most of the races are harder to relate to, which I would think explains their lack of representation.

[Mirehn_Bielann]

The problem is the alienness of Aliens. Can humans truly comprehend what goes through the Eldar mind? Can they convey it?

It is for this reason that GW rarely ventures beyond Imperial stories...

Except for one exception. Which is a blasphemy. And makes me want to stop playing Eldar...

[Elukka]

It's also probably that aliens are damn hard to write. It's hard to make them both believable characters and alien at the same time.

[Green Tide]

Because the other would be "Alien" viewpoints to the reader.

For example, a book from the PoV of an Ork:

Today meeb killed sum uumies. Meeb almost got killed ter, an Gorbaz died, so meeb looted 'is deff shoota, an excitin' day!

Dark Eldar PoV:

Today I ate a couple of Mon-keigh souls, a delicious breakfast indeed, and better yet after literally cooking them.

[Saberdark]

Hmm, I do seem to recall hearing about one or two books that aren't about humans. But there are certainly books from the Chaos perspective.

But yeah, in general since humans are writing all the stories its kinda hard for us to write from the perspective of aliens. Even the codex's(codi?) are usually written from the Imperium's point of view.

[TimW]

So my question is are there any books or stories NOT about the space marines/IG/Inquisition/Heresy?

Yes, lots. In no particular order, this books are not about space marines or the imperium:

Heart of Darkness, Joesph Conrad,
Cryptonomicon, Neal Stephenson
The Trial, Franz Kafka
Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy, John LeCarré
...
[several days pass]
...
Stalingrad, Anthony Beevor
Conplicity, Iain Banks
Clash of Civilisations, Samual P Huntington
Small is...

*is passed note*

Oh, I see

Right. Well, then, by looking on the Black Library site I have found these books with non-imperial/non-space marine main characters

Eldar Prophacy, C.S. Goto
Daemon World, Ben Counter
Fire Warrior, Simon Spurrier
Tales from the Dark Millennium also has an Eldar focused short story by C.S. Goto.

[Imrix]

Although it's worth noting that going so far as reading C.S. Goto in order to get a non-human story would be considered going above and beyond the call of duty to masochistic levels.

Fire Warrior is pretty good from what I hear though- unlike the game.

[Andkat]

As EPIK_WIN's "Are there any books NOT about the Imperium" thread deals more with general discussion of Black Library novels, authors, and policy than any specific series, it has been merged with the Black Library Review/Discussion Thread.

[EPIK WIN]

In response to "hard to write from Alien's perspective":

Would it be so hard to do a third-person recounting of events?

Plus I don't think it would be THAT hard to imagine the cultures of the Tau or Eldar, and maybe even Dark Eldar (if you want a very controversial, sadist book).

I think Tau would definitely be interesting: think of all the racial and inter-caste conflicts.

@TimW

I think the context of the forum established what kind of literature I was looking for... and I'm sorry that I couldn't find the 4 books out of the dozens listed on that site, but I appreciate you pointing them out...

[Saberdark]

I didn't say it was impossible, but it certainly is hard to make them seem sufficiently human to connect with, yet still be alien. Thats why very few authors are interested in writing from the alien perspective.

Would it be so hard to do a third-person recounting of events?

No, but it would be quite boring, methinks. Besides, the third person perspective of choice would most likely be the Inquisition anyway.