Panzer vs Sherman

[Crushyerbones]

So I was playing a 3vs3 the other day... I lost but that doesn't mean this discussion is just a rant tough...

I had about 3 grenadiers with panzershrecks and 1 volks with MP40s. Since I had enough resources I tought I'd rather build 2 panzer IVs instead of some stugs. Makes sense since Panzer IVs are better, no? Also keep in mind that before doing this I had researched 3 levels of tank veterancy.

I notice a gap in the allied defences and decide to rush it with my whole army... I reach one of their points. It's wired! Well, no problem, I'll just raze it down with both my panzers and then the infantry rushes in.

Now here comes the stupid part... just as I come over the wire, there's a narrow corridor where a sherman was parked just around it. He manages to get a side shot. No biggie, I tought. Then he got another one... and another one... I HAVE A QUARTER HEALTH LEFT AND HE HAS ATLEAST 5/6!!! Damn... Just bad luck I tought... thank god I've got my grenadiers near by.... And my second panzer is out the factory and coming to my aid as my first one slowly backs up for repairs (damaged engine).

Then, all of a sudden: Riflemen pop up. Well, it's just one and I've got a bucketload of grenadiers... Wait a sec... What's that? Bars? Damn, instant supression. *Boom* I just lost half my men from a sherman shot (narrow corridor, not my fault they clumped up). My volks mop up the riflemen. And that sherman is going down!!!

Or not...

Here comes another Panzer! And in the meantime I've managed to get about 3 shrecks on the sherman's side! Thank god! I was thinking the streak of bad luck would end but...

Vroooom... And a paradropped AT gun blocks my MarkIV from behind. Yes, my panzer can't retreat because of an AT gun. He's blocked in. Well, it's just a sherman and an AT, I'll move my old Panzer back, he's got a new engine so what can go wrong?

Turns out a lot.

My stuck Panzer got blown to bits. (AP rounds?) And my grenadiers were no match to a caliope barrage (ON HIS OWN FREAKING TANK!!!) Which didn't even weaken it any more than it was!

So here comes the half health panzer... But will it be enough to take out an AT gun facing the other way?

Nope... He misses every single shot before a brand new sherman pops up and owns me left and right.

Moments latter I face the inevitable base rush.


People of the strategy forums, my question is as follows:

Bad luck, bad tactics or bad Panzer IV?

[Searaven]

There's quite a lot wrong with what you said there, I would have to go with bad tactics to be honest.

Now here comes the stupid part... just as I come over the wire, there's a narrow corridor where a sherman was parked just around it. He manages to get a side shot. No biggie, I tought. Then he got another one... and another one... I HAVE A QUARTER HEALTH LEFT AND HE HAS ATLEAST 5/6!!! Damn... Just bad luck I tought... thank god I've got my grenadiers near by.... And my second panzer is out the factory and coming to my aid as my first one slowly backs up for repairs (damaged engine).

So . . . why didn't you turn the Panzer to face the Sherman after it scored the first side shot? Of course if you let an enemy just pound away on your flank you're going to take a lot of damage.

Then, all of a sudden: Riflemen pop up. Well, it's just one and I've got a bucketload of grenadiers... Wait a sec... What's that? Bars? Damn, instant supression. *Boom* I just lost half my men from a sherman shot (narrow corridor, not my fault they clumped up). My volks mop up the riflemen. And that sherman is going down!!!

You say it was "not your fault". Well, unit placement is a part of good tactics, so I would say it is your fault - Infantry always work better when they're spread apart.

Vroooom... And an AT gun blocks my tiger from behind. Yes, my panzer can't retreat because of an AT gun. He's blocked in. Well, it's just a sherman and an AT, I'll move my old Panzer back, he's got a new engine so what can go wrong?

At what point did you get a Tiger? And since when is a single AT gun difficult for a Tiger to take out? I think you might've just mixed up here and meant to say Panzer. In any case, you said your volks mopped up their riflemen - why didn't you use those remaining volks to take out the AT gun instead of sending a tank at it?

Maybe there's something I'm missing here, but it sounds to me like you simply messed up big time. Panzers have proven, in my mind, to be very formidable tanks. Do you perhaps have a replay?

[Firesparks]

I'm thinking that "gap" is actually a well disguised trap.
or atleast that wired point give him the time to respond.

[Crushyerbones]

So . . . why didn't you turn the Panzer to face the Sherman after it scored the first side shot? Of course if you let an enemy just pound away on your flank you're going to take a lot of damage.

I did turn it. I'm not sure how that single side shot managed to take away so much HP.... The other 3 to 5 shots on the frontal still blew my panzer to hell.

At what point did you get a Tiger?

*Fixed*, sorry... I was playing trying out post-patch defensive... xD

Panzers have proven, in my mind, to be very formidable tanks.

That was my main doubt... Should I have gotten Stugs or waited for a Panther instead? I've heard Panzer IVs are superior to shermans and stuff... And I tought the upgrades would almost make it a 1.5 shermans = 1 panzer fight. I knew there was a sherman or two there, I just tought it would be an easy cap so I could harass their points counter...


Edit: I had to quit before the game ended. I don't think the game saves replays until the match finishes, does it? I could check out my temp one.

[BlackLabel]

Was it a "upgunned" sherman ? Maybe you should have produced 1-2 stugs early and THEN spending the resources for the "Kampfkraft-Center". Use the grenadiers with shreks as support for the stug and vis-versa. Clear out AT-guns with volks. They even rip airborn to shreds in zero time. And...its allways better to have 2 stugs instead of one. Or a AT gun if the stug has to back up. Oh and backup with the stug into a corner so you cant be flanked by M10´s or a Sherman.

[RayLiota]

I would say bad luck or tactics because I find Panzer IV's to be pretty close to even with Shermans right now which is nice, up gunned Shermans will require you to buy veterency for your Panzer IV's to keep an even footing..

S.

[BlackLabel]

It was a tripple X Panzer...

Also keep in mind that before doing this I had researched 3 levels of tank veterancy.

[Falaris]

(Reference for info)
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=137486

The PzIV is not going to be the 'lay waste to the shermans' style tank. Basic sherman, PzIV wins, upgunned sherman, the sherman wins, and upgunned + vet3, it's fairly even again. They also cost virtually the same so that's sort of fair.

The PzIV is a better infantry support tank than 'tank duel tank'. For tank duels you'll want panthers, they're far above it in pure tank power, but if you have some support, the PzIV will work fine - much better against everything EXCEPT tanks, with the best fire rate of a regular tank and okay (not great) area of effect on its shots.

About tactics etc... it does sound like you walked into a set trap. The high initial damage sounds a bit extreme, might have been a mine? In either case, the PzIV/sherman matchup is so close an early hit like that decides the outcome. Retreat sooner rather than later, and set up a welcoming committe for the pursuing sherman. (If he does).

[WildeCard]

Extremely bad luck on your part OP. However, you got caught in the terrain, so well played to your enemy.

I know it's not always practical to do so in a game, but try not to commit every last unit you have to an assault, just on the offchance you get caught from behind. (The AT that dropped behind you should be a poignant example.)

Good game and I commend you for trying to learning from your experience.

[Crushyerbones]

Thanks for all the answers everyone! I figured it was my problem all along...

I still can't believe I last that huge assault force to a single Sherman and a few riflemen xD (and an engi... But they just sat there)