IG Tier4 = the Best?

[FallenOne]

I have a quick and fairly random question about IG Tier 4. I keep hearing from everyone and seeing it written on the forums that IG T4 is the best, and I am inclined to agree provided you can get the BaneBlade out, as it tends to wtfpwnbbqsawce just about anything you can imagine.

However, in the cases where you cannot get a relic for whatever reason, I would say that IG T4 is just so-so. Is there something that I'm not thinking about that makes IG T4 better?

I know that the LR is an awesome tank, and has some decently balanced AV and AI capabilities, but most other races' T4 seem better to me, plus IG only get the LR after having to make an extra wait for the Vehicle bay to finish.

[Chris]

The Baneblade is good on paper but it has problems that can't really be avoided.

Firstly it is fucking huge. When you've already got tons of infantry, trying to move that fat bastard is just a nightmare. Secondly it requires a special building that basically makes the baneblade more expensive than any other relic unit. Thirdly there is a typo in the game code so the mars command has weak armour, it's literally weaker than a listening post.

The LR is so-so. Assuming you can take advantage of the long ranged cannon it can beat other tier 4 tanks but again you need to spend extra resources and time in the form of depot addons. Firstly Russ depot takes at least a minute to research which can make or break a game, if both players hit tier 4 roughly the same time the other player could have their first tier 4 tank out before you even start yours. Secondly in tier 3-4 you will need a minimum of 3 depots or 2 depots + mars command in order to field 2 Russ' + anything else. 3 depots cost around 600/375, are fucking huge and can't even be used for extra production without researching... more depot add ons.

[FallenOne]

don't forget that in general, IG Teching up to T4 (the cost + time to get T2, T3 upgrades) is greater, so you usually are the last to T4 as IG.
So should I take that as "no, IG T4 is actually worse than everyone else? So that puts IG at a bad, T0, bad T0.5, bad T1, Good T2, bad T3, and bad T4?
...suck.

[magicalcarpet]

IG do have a good T4, when you get your stuff fighting other stuff.

IMO nothing can hold a candle to Tau T4 though. The Tau player is actually forced into utilising massive imba.

The LR bay is damn annoying, The MPC is an insult. If on frontlines, your BB can move, if it's protected, you're going to delete half your base to get it out. Still, once the pieces are in place.. it's gunny.

[Kronickle]

T3 is good, I don't know why people say it's not. What is not good about Priest Fanaticism, Ogryn, Kasyrkin, Assassin; and soon to be fixed HWT autocannon?

[The_Guardman]

It's bad that
1 Kaserkin
1 Ogryn
1 assasin
IG T3 is not bad, it's the other armies that's more powerful.

[Kronickle]

True that, but you can't deny that invincibility can be very effective if used correctly.

[Troubleshooter]

IG tier 4 is just the same as all things IG. Its good, but compaired to other races, its just not shiny. The only race that it clearly out shines is chaos, and is pretty close to orks.

SM tier 4 > all IMO... its the deepstrike factor and the Land raider + heros.

Tau has bugged units, so they are good in a cheesy sort of way.

Necrons really peak in tier 3.

Orks are over the top in tier 4, not IMBA, but fun as hell. Free Sluggas = massive eco.

Eldar are just a bit tougher in tier 4 with the addition of FP's and the avvy, but not any worse than tier 2.5 WS. tier vs. tier.

Chaos tier 4 is chaos tier 3. Chaos poj. are good, but the BT is still the worst Uber out there.

[Dux]

IG Tier 4 is strong, but no Tier 4 comes remotely close Tau Tier 4. Super imba Hammerheads, a Tier 3 Relic Unit, and broken CS Flamers FTW.

If you are playing against Tau and you both reach Tier 4 at the same time, you will lose every single time, regardless of what race you are using.

[ImmortalChaos]

Tau dont have the best T4; kroot do.

3 pop uncapped 1k HP monster med gorrilaz, and kroot hounds which, with etherial+shaper, are better than PSM.

Then theres those 50 range FWs and 70 range bodyguard to deal with.

[Iogrez]

One thing that I think could make IG Tier4 better is making Leman Russ' battle cannons like those of their Looted Tank brethren.

Obviously the BB fills a strong Anti-Everything role, while a pair of LR's handle the anti-vehicle role well. Thing is, though, they're 5 cap each. What would make them WORTH that 5 cap is if they, like Looted tanks, fired artillery rounds (albeit, non-ground-targetable) as their anti-vehicle weapon. This would allow them to both serve an artillery role and an anti-vehicle role. I mean, let's face it, you're not going to be able to have several basilisks if you want to field 2 LR's and a BB. This would allow you to have the disruption value of artillery against infantry while still being primarily anti-vehicle focused.

[falcarion]

If u give the LR a looted LR's range than it's just like a more resiliant artillery vehicle with with autocannons. Lr's are supposed to be heavy assault tanks.. not artillery

plus, the BB's gives wnuf anti everything anyways so increasing the LR's long range would be a liitle imba

[Rocsflight]

A Leman Russ already matches the Looted Leman Russ's range. He was asking for AOE disruption.

[falcarion]

oh

[Jaimas]

Big weakness of IG late tiers, IMO, is need for multiples of structures. Mech Commands are fucking big, and aren't inexpensive.

[Dux]

In the long run, though, I think they give you more vehicle cap per resources spent when compared to the other races.

[Integrity]

Well Dux, take SM for instance here...

Subsequent Mech Commands take 200r, 125p to build, give 6 cap.

Researching Vehicle Cap is 150r (after the first one) and give 5 cap.

So, if you need four Mech Commands (or three and a MPC), that's 800r, 600p. For researching Vehicle Cap four times (putting them all at the same; the first is actually cheaper), it's only 600r. Those both give you 20 cap.

So, to tally:

IG: 800r, 525p (assuming three Mech and a MPC)
SM: 575r (first one is a bit cheaper)
Chaos: 575r (see above)
Eldar: 700r (seven webways = 20 pop, right?)
Ork: 1650r (OW.)
Tau: 900r, 600p (assumes all three upgrade buildings)
Necrons: 175p (but needs Strategic Points)

Note on this:
IG gets buildings to produce more tanks with each cap increase.

SM and Chaos get...absolutely nothing! for their trouble.

Eldar gets Webway Gates, which are nice.

Orks get turrets and pop increase in one happy bundle.

Tau gets it by building their three research buildings they need anyway. Side note, do Tau get any cap from the Vehicle Beacon?

Necrons need to cap about six Strategic Points/Relics to hit their cap.


What this'll prove, I dunno. But, it's out there now.

[Frostbite]

IG also has to research its vehicles before they can start making them, if you factor that into the costs.

SM do not.
Chaos do not.
Eldar do.
Orks do not.
Tau do not.
Necrons do not.

[Dux]

Ah, thanks for those numbers, Integrity. I stand corrected.

[MykC]

On paper the optimal IG T4 layout would like the for the infantry cap: 6 Guardsqauds (3 Psykers, 2 Commisars, 1 Priest), Karksin w/Priest, Orgyn /w Priest, Command Squad (Priest, 3x Pysker) and the Vindicare Assasin

Your vehicle cap would look like: 2 Leman Russ, 1 Bane Blade, 2 Baskalisk and a 1 Chimeria.

The thing about IG's T4 is that you can essentially neutralize your opponents T4 vehicles with Curse of the Machines. Now with the above layout you get 6 psykers. This will allow you to continuely keep two vehicles sedated. With this, you can essentially cripple your opponenets T4.

[Integrity]

Problem with that, Myk, is that's on paper. In reality, it's a bitch to get Psykers through such an infantry mass AND get in range of vehicles. And, there's the fact that it's a clickie ability to use, and the Psykers have to survive (they're easily the most fragile commander, IMO.)

Also, what does taking two vehicles out of the equation do to anybody except IG, honestly?

Chaos it does basically jack to.
SM loses a Land Raider (which can just pop Machine Spirit), and a Pred, or two Preds, but they still have Tacs and Termies and...holy hell.
Eldar loses two Prisms, which...eh. Might hurt, but good luck breaking through the Warp Spiders to do it.
Orks lose their two Looted Tanks...again, meh.
Tau...AHAHA. Mont'ka loses its two Hammerheads, which can suck. Kauyon loses abso-bloody-lutely nothing. Joy.
Necrons lose the Monolith, which does hurt them. But, you can use abilities while CotMS'd, right? Teleport? Any other Necron vehicles are extremely meh.

Honestly IG, SM, and Necrons are the only ones that should be fazed by the prospect of losing two vehicles, and that's still on paper. Ever tried to coordinate six Psykers like that, assuming none die/get knocked down? It's a nightmare.

[Snake1311]

2 prisms loss is meh!?!?
*glares*

[Integrity]

I always found Prisms kinda meh, m'self. :P

[Thunderforce]

Necron won't loose the Monolith, it teleports back to it's original location upon 1500 HP or some number along those lines.

[Integrity]

Yeah, but it'll still be out of commission for the duration of the battle.

[the_almighty_moo]

Although leman russes can take the shots and the baneblade has finally been made a bit better, the IG tier 4 tanks are a bit below par (although still better than chaos preds ) and trying to take down hammerheads with IG is a pain in the ass.

All you can do really against most things is go all out psykers and hope for the best

[War-Reborn]

Problem with IG in tier 4 is everythings bugged, damn expensive or both!

BB requires a special building, so in effect it costs 600req an 450 power compared to 400/400 for everyone else, thats 50% more req than other relic unit, so in short it's damn expensive, it's also bugged having lost around 25% of it's AV/AB dmg thanks to a wonky main turret that i guess for coding/targetting conflicts only actually fires 1 of the 2 guns mounted on it .

The Autocannon is bugged an does'nt fire, i've tested it an only the Battlecannon fires, despite the dmg values etc for the AC all being in there, the AC clearly has some kind of coding conflict with the BC regarding, who's controlling the turret (they both share the same turret) as a result only the BC fires, seeing as the autocannon does almost as much AV/AB dmg as the right hand las cannon its quite a loss to the BB having this weapon not functional, so that loverly line "ready to unleash 11 barrells of hell" should really be "ready to unleash 11 barrels of hell but we can only fire 10 sire".
So there you have it on the BB expensive an bugged.

LR just expensive, you need to research the leman upgrade an then build it, so higher cost an slower deployment time, added to the fact no tracers mean it's hard to work out what those side bolters are actually doing
So lemans are just expensive.

But why stop at tier 4, when you have a priest who overide's you sarge bonus's meaning ogrens actually get weaker with a priest attached, rather than stronger as they are supposed to, not only hp wise but morale wise too, your better off sticking an CS on them, but whats the point of having high level commanders like preist's if you can't properly use them on your high level infantry units

Kassies are expensive with upgrades

HWT cant aim

Pyscars lower morale, ultimatley breaking themselves an attached squads, when using some of there spells

IG have so many bugs, that fundamentally affect the strength an thus balance of some of there key units, across all tiers (an for a old established side that has been around for many patches thats a frankly despressing state of affairs) that it's pretty hard to evaluate cost/power balance, as most of there units an abilties are a lot less powerful than they should be due to bugs.

So a big cheer for our 10 barrelled Baneblade.
An another for our hp an morale lowering priest.
An another for our gunner team who knows better than you, what he should be shooting.

I wont even get started on the airstike, weapons upgrade reseach bug etc etc

[Morifen]

FYI, BB isn't the most expensive relic unit. See http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/Dawn_of_War:_Relic_Units for details. In terms of just resource and power alone, at least bloodthirster, landraider, and squiggoth cost more.

[War-Reborn]

well, first issue is those tables take no acount for the fact you need to actually build some units in the first instance, to actually get into a postion of being able to build your relic unit, so elder an IG are going to look lower than what they in reality are, because it does'nt take into account the need to purchase additional upgrades in there factories/barracks for them to be able to produce anything other than basic vanilla units.

Second issue is that the sm tree is just wrong, i thought it did'nt look right on first glance, the req total has gained 300 req out of thin air, adding those table values up produces 1925 for the top one & 1850 for the bottom, so how they came to thos totals is anyones guess

[MegaTheOne]

imo SM tier 4 pwns even Tau tier 4

[Apple2o]

IG T4 is average, and we really need an add-on depot that doubles the pop-cap a building gives. Its annoying being barred from playing IG on small maps because i can't fit all my buildings in....

[Zallis]

Indeed. Mech. Commands should be smaller. Even if you have the time to meticulously maximize space in automatch, your units still get stuck. In fact, if you try to make efficient use of space in your base, your units get stuck even more! That is annoying.

[Cptn sauve_]

I think that mech commands getting smaller i highly unlikely. However, if they could make the depot upgrades also provided vehicle cap it would make them a whole lot more worthwhile. I think that it is important that the IG building advantage of stronger and more valuable buildings is made more prominant.

[Rocsflight]

IG buildings aren't all that strong.
The various vehicle buildings as an example:

Ork's Mek Shop: 2000 hitpoints
IG Mechanized Command: 2500 hitpoints
Eldar Support Portal: 3200 hitpoints
SM Machine Cult: 4000 hitpoints
Tau Vehicle Beacon: 4000 hitpoints
Chaos Machine Pit: 5000 hitpoints

Information from RelicWiki.

[Admiral Ikari]

Bring back the days of being able to field 5 Leman Russ tanks ^^.

[Shinsei]

I accidently joined a QS game as IG once(i never played QS). It was a 2v2, and my mate had dropped in the beginning of the game, so I was against a tau and a necron. Basically, I took control of the mid map, thus giving me half the map and created a choke point for them to follow to get to me. They were probably subpar players, but nevertheless they were churning out their units and teching almost as fast as me. Anyways, I had 2-3 basi's chewing up anything that came through that choke point. Basically, necron never got through. Tau's FW's never really got to do anything either, but as soon as his hammerheads came I was suffering. My lemans and baneblade came out and helped me with that, but then I just started spamming earthshakers left and right (QS, nobody cares about rec >.<), and it was just pretty much gg from there. That and my assassin repeatedly ninja'ed their heroes whenever they got them out, including the etheral.

In a high rec game, I'd deffinately say IG tier 4 is one of the strongest, basically due to earthshaker spamming. Although since I never play QS or high rec, I'd say that IG tier 4 is pretty mediocre, due to the research time, resource cost and lack of decent AV apart from CotMS and lemans.

[War-Reborn]

i've played QS as IG an they suck, probably one of the the worst QS races, 3 v 3 qs playing as IG ur a liabilty to the team, SM, Elder, Tau, an Necs rule the qs roost followed closely by orcs, an Chaos an IG bring up the rear, much like they do in every other game type bar maybe assination

[ADestroy]

in t4 u have to deal with a lot of scenarios like base defense, close combat, vehicles deamons/beasts and base destruction so i think marines and necron would be at the top of the list follwed by tau because they lack defense.

[Lodis]

@ADestroy:

Can you clarify your post please?

@OP:

I agree. IG tier 3 is great, but tier 4 is lackluster. The BB's footprint is massive and, combined with the Mars Pattern Command, is expensive (worth it, though.) However, without a relic, IG simply gets 2 Lemans that are well-rounded, but not specifically good at anything.

[FallenOne]

@Shinsei and War. Yes IG are not hot at defending themselves in QS, but with proper team support, and strong micro, the hellstorm of EarthShaker spamming is mighty to behold as long as you can maintain your economy. You are talking about opposing builder NOT being able to keep up with how fast you destroy their buildings, and half-way across the map

[SPADEZ]

Orky Tier 4 is just the loota tankz. I believe they are better than normal leman russes. Since they have better machine guns on 'em.
(sluggas is tier 3)

[Al_Ka_Pwn]

i dont get why orky looted tanks are better or stronger then THE ACTUAL FREAKIN IG tanks

[FallenOne]

Well, the Imperial LR is designed with an AV spin in mind, while the Orky LR is designed as AI. When it comes down to it, IG LR might be more useful in T4 since a big theme in T4 is big things with veh_high armor that roll around mopping the floor with everyone. Then again, the Orky LRs weapons seem to me to be more universally effective, the cannon has quite high damage and good disruption, and the HBs scythe through infantry. The IG LR just has decent dmg vs vehicle (IMO it should be very good dmg), and the HBs are meh.


Actually, I really liked the idea that I read somewhere (possibly the massive IG balance thread ) that suggested that LRs be available in earlier tiers, and then be allowed to scale, sort of like the Chaos Pred is now. Say if you got the LR as it is with an HP reduction in T3, then when the T4 research completes it gets an HP buff and replaces the battlecannon with a demolisher cannon or the hull HB with a hull Lascannon.

[Garumsh-Zott]

It boils down to theri usefulness for the respective armies. LR is VERY useful for IG because it adds much needed AV punch and durability. As far as the LLR goes... ANOTHER AI weapon for orks? Not really necessary. An AV tank would be even more needed for ORKs than for IG. Kans are almost as durable. If you don't make the best out of his artillery(which is difficult because he bombes your melee troops too) he is almost worthless for Orks imo.

[Rocsflight]

The Leman Russ's main selling point is its 60 range battle cannon. Here is a list of total DPS numbers from the T4 tanks.

Predator Annihilator
Vehicle Low: 249.4
Vehicle Medium: 181.2
Vehicle High: 92.5

Predator(w/ Chaos Projectiles)
Vehicle Low: 256.2
Vehicle Medium: 219.8
Vehicle High: 85.5

Fire Prism
Vehicle Low: 112.2
Vehicle Medium: 114.8
Vehicle High: 97.8

Looted Leman Russ
Vehicle Low: 185
Vehicle Medium: 101.3
Vehicle High: 43.3

Leman Russ
Vehicle Low: 154.6
Vehicle Medium: 123.9
Vehicle High: 86.4

Hammerhead Gunship
Vehicle Low: 270.1
Vehicle Medium: 262.3
Vehicle High: 197.5

The Leman Russ's damage isn't all that spectacular when compared to the other T4 tanks(wasn't sure what to compare with Necron). The only tanks able to compare with its range, though, are the Looted Leman Russ with its battle cannon(which does ok damage, but not what you are looking for from a T4 tank) and the Hammerhead railgun(which has 10 less range, but a lot more power). All of the other tanks have to get within 40 range to begin to fight.

[B-Typo]

Well, I would say the LLR isnt that bad, it can disrupt infantry. Unlike any others.

[Chris]

Well, the Imperial LR is designed with an AV spin in mind, while the Orky LR is designed as AI

Not really, all the tier 4 tanks are basically "anti-everything". The thing is the LR and LLR are significantly weaker at being "anti-everything". SM/CSM predators for example deal almost double the AV damage but arn't that far behind in AI firepower (CSM pred is probably ahead). Yes, the LR has 20 more range but does it make up for almost 50% less dps? I don't think it does.

[Merker]

I think the extra 20 range is great. It gives you the ability to concentrate your fire in more situations. How do you calculate how much 20 range is worth compared to damage though is pretty difficult. I'd say it probably benefits the ork player a bit more then the SM since he's going to have a raging "sea of green" where the IG player has alot of units which want to hide behind the tank

M

[MykC]

How much is range worth? Well in terms of T4 vehicles vs T4 vehicles... not much because it takes all of 5 seconds for a tank to drive 20 range. So I guess it would be worth about 5 seconds of DPS.

[Xanthian]

Well, I would say the LLR isnt that bad, it can disrupt infantry. Unlike any others.

Oh, I'm sorry. I guess fire prisms don't really zap things in a larger radius and fling them around, while actually doing good damage to begin with.

And watching a monolith send things flying must have been just my imagination too.

The fact is, the reason nobody else's tier 4 tanks are artillery is that everybody else already has artillery in tier 3. (Orks technically have artillery in tier 2, but it's not the free harass kind, nor the kind that does actual damage.) And the LLR's artillery isn't as good as the whirlwind's, or the basilisk's, etc. Despite the fact it arrives an entire tier later, in the face of tanks which are more than "just artillery". With burna bombs now, orks pretty much have something "close enough" to artillery, assuming they get nerfed, that at least they don't need the spot filled by the LLR anymore.

Then again, telling orks that what they need is a tier 4 tank that's great at killing vehicles, is basically gonna have people questioning your childhood trauma. Tier 2 infiltrated tankbustaz fill this role PERFECTLY WELL for ork, IN ALL TIERS. And therein lies the problem; to give orks an imba tier 4 tank to make them consistent with everyone else that they don't really need, or to give them late artillery that's inferior to dedicated artillery platforms due to the heavy bolters that you won't be using when your artillery is being used properly? The result is the ill-designed ill-defined tank we have now. I personally just build trakks with bomb chukkas. At least they do something useful to infantry in a much more manageable capacity, while having a very solid vehicle punch to boot.

IG tier 4 is pretty solid however. Baneblade is good no matter how you spin it (at least it's no squiggoth where pathing comes into it), and techpriests are OH SO SWEET when coupled with a baneblade. Leman's are basically there to soak up fire by being the perceived threat so your guardsmen can mow down infantry without having their morale insta-broken, or being tossed all over the place by opposing artillery. And at doing that, they work. It's when you expect them to be the backbone of your army instead of guardsmen/psykers, etc, that they seem lacking. And really, who the hell has the backbone of their army as vehicles in the first place anymore?