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I think its really dumb that defenses build by engineers are free (except bunker, and mines) They should all cost resources. Making wires free is a really dumb decision imo. Wire rushes are a pain in the a** and need to be dealt with in the next patch. Who here feels the same way? If not, then why?
Just my two cents.
i've never had a problem with wire rushes. i always get a volk in before that last bit of wire, or find a way around it.
I don't agree.
Why?
Because riflemen in mass having free reign over your MG42 is not my idea of a good time.
They don't need to cost resources.
If you can somehow rise to the top of the ladder using wire rushes, then there's a problem, but seeing as you haven't then you probably just don't understand some game mechanics well enough yet.
True, wire rushes can be a pain. Some maps are worse than others (e.g. St Hilaire) - but you could argue that that's a problem with the map, not with defences being free.
I think defences are fine as they are. If you have the mental stability to build defences in the middle of a fire-fight, you deserve them.
Yeah, for each wire you are laying, thats one less point you COULD be capturing.
I think its fine as-is. Wire rushes are indeed annoying as hell and pretty stupid (But yes, I do it too), and that might be a problem, but if they change it it would be worthless.
I'd rather have a potentially annoying strategy and a useful feature then a worthless feature. Besides, as axis, I've never had too much trouble beating wire. Once I get T2 my pios can just chop it down, and then I am attacking from a direciton my enemy thinks is safe.
defences should be free recource-wise because they cost your units in terms of time
...I suggest wirecutters! It only takes a moment and yer through. Defences would be pointless if they weren't free cos everything costs so much req in the first place. Mines are rarely used, or so i've seen because to build any form of defence with them sucks the life out of your munitions. Think of it from that perspective.
@kaiju:Mines are GREAT no one expects them and are imo the best counter for the croc.
@OP:I really don't agree with you Defenses should remain free.I never had any problem with rushes and the ones that try to "Lock me in" end up losing because you can't just lock down most of the map in the early game.
People have a hard enough time remember the only defense that costs munitions - imagine what will ahpen when everything costs resources................. no more defenses
Noobs wire rush the entrace of places, so I just walk into a building and out the door the other side. LOL?
OH ya, I love how people focus so hard on wire/sand/tanktrap and then the pershing/tiger just clears a path without a bulldozer attached. Those defense hardly do anything. Now the mines I love, and would be a scarey thought what would happen to tank wars if mines were free. Just imagine
#12
Most games that charge money for defences like walls and tank traps and whatnot wind up without them being used much at all.
I prefer COH's potential overuse to the definite underuse I see in other games.
No, defenses should stay as they are. Wire rushing is very annoying, though. It's the reason why I don't play Seine anymore; all of the bases have narrow exits that can't be expanded without vehicles and there are no buildings going to the other side.
pardon my ignorance, but what the heck is entailed in a wire rush? It sounds quite comical!
Basically, using your first engineer to run into the field to wire off an important bit instead of using it to cap stuff. Can be effective.
However, as to the OP:
Defences no longer has your name on them. They can be used by anyone, a clever opponent will use them against you and you can no longer automatically delete them. That is in no small part why I disagree that they should cost resources.
I think wire should only be able to be laid once you have a certain muni income: say +8, so in the worst case scenario, you can have 1 low muni with an OP to be allowed to lay wire. Thus, you need to cap at least 1 med muni point before laying early wire, severely blunting the wire rush... But that idea has been shot down by people who like to abuse early wire, so...
What they need to do is just give more or at least equitable amounts of entrances in all scenarios: if a map is prone to either side wire rushing to the same effect, ok, leave it, but if a map has one side with a much easier wire rush, make it so that it is just as easy/hard for the other player.
As mentioned, the prime example is Seine River Docks, where 2-3 lengths of wire can trap a player almost wholly in their base, but other maps have problems too. For instance, Montargis region: in the center it is very even in terms of denying entrance to the area, but on the right flank, the top player has half the wire to lay to block south entrance compared to the south player blocking the north. On the left flank, it is worse, where the top player has to lay 3 lengths of wire (plus one length at leisure on the other side) to prevent the bottom from having access to the whole courtyard, whereas the bottom player has 4 separate space which each require 3 lengths of wire to close.
Simple fix, just a couple more holes in the bottom fence and its entirely equal between the players. It just doesn't make sense to me why nothing has been done.
Except wire, it belongs to the player who puts it down and can be removed at will.However, as to the OP:
Defences no longer has your name on them. They can be used by anyone, a clever opponent will use them against you and you can no longer automatically delete them. That is in no small part why I disagree that they should cost resources.
Thus, you need to cap at least 1 med muni point before laying early wire, severely blunting the wire rush... But that idea has been shot down by people who like to abuse early wire, so...
Could you enlight me on what "wire abuse" is ? I dont like all the diffrent ideas of "building wire only in your own territory-wire for cost"...they all fail because they whould destroy the whole useabillity of wire at all....A player needs to KNOW the maps...the chokepoints and such. Thats it.
Last edited by BlackLabel; 25th Feb 07 at 10:32 PM.
I disagree, minor defenses are under-utilized as it is.
they're fine as is. I agree with what ceejayoz said.
I didn't have a problem until Volks could wire, I find that it allows people to quickly wire off areas without any real reduction in the players combat ability, many maps like sturzdorf don't even require you to hold off on capping points!
@LTSearch what your saying is imo a bit silly the whole point of a wire rush is to stop an infantry rush. So the idea of having to cap a point just gives ur enemy time to get into ur vicinty and screw you over
Just my two cents.
The mad dash to wire off the map straight away is very anoying but I don't think it's bad enough to warrant making defenses cost resources.
Besides it's nice to catch your opponents pioneers in the middle of laying barbed wire since they are easy meat
Ceejayoz hit the nail onthe head methinks. The fact is now there are so many ways to combat wire spams and tank trap spam, it's a null argument. Pre-1.5, TT for Allies ruled but with Goliaths wiping them out in one go now it just means your kept on your toes and always on the lookout for peeps breaking through. It's not the axis stopper it used to be.Most games that charge money for defences like walls and tank traps and whatnot wind up without them being used much at all.
Blacklabel:
The first ten seconds of combat can essentially lose a game on a map like Seine if you get wired into your base, even if you try to prevent it and you know exactly what to expect.
Your pios happen to lose to his engies, a couple lengths of wire and total map control and chokepoint control to the opponent. Did you mistakenly think I was talking about 1v1 only?
Everyone else:
A)Make it so that wire requires a munitions income to put up (not an actual muni cost, by the way) so you can't put it up instantly. This is the amount of speedbump I think it needs.
B )Make it only buildable within own territory. I prefer A.
This won't affect the usability of it, everyone who wants to use it as fortifications can do so without a problem. It just prevents the instant wiring of chokepoints at little risk to the player trying it (in some cases).
Nope...I think you talked about wire as a whole thing. I dont see a "abuse" here really.
Making it cost whatever, kills the pure existence of it. Imagine playing against some competent Allies who riflespam/whatever hard and you cant wire a certain place...gg. Imo...there are fast ways to get rid off of wire. As for seine river docks. Its a Map problem. Not a wire problem. That thing was also adressed in the latest TOH...btw.
I must've missed it.
OTOH, my suggested solution doesn't have defenses costing ANYTHING. They're still free to use. Absolutely free. Free.
Free.
If riflespam is unbeatable without using wire before you cap a munitions point, then there is something else very wrong.
It heavly depends on playstyle i guess. Even if you force a player to first cap a munitions point there is something involved that is called TIME. Very expensive and important...
If it requires a munitions income it's still opens the possibility of a player being unable to build defenses/wire. That's bad. Thus, keep as is.
I don't have any problem with using wire to block off, say, a middle vp from your opponent. Someone did this to me on Point Du Hoc (top), and I was able to counter it with an MG on the hill breaking through the wire at the north where he wasn't paying attention. I suppose it is primarily a map problem with something like the bases on Seine. But I like LT's idea. It won't discourage the use of wire; it will just keep it from happening as the first thing that somebody does without taking any points (which is what the game is about).
I think in some cases it's more the map's fault than the wire itself. Like those buggers that have high fuel points inside a four-wall area with three easily-wirable holes.
#31
The simplest solution to this problem would be just to avoid maps where wire rushes can be a problem
The problem with the munitions idea, is that if someone gets cut off from their munitions income later in the game (can happen if someone sneaks in and cuts off a major road), then that person can't fortify either. As well, if there's only a few munition points on the map, it can be very bad indeed.
How about making it so that all engineers and pioneers start with free wire cutters, but they require more time than they do now to actually remove the wire. This makes it less of a "wire and forget" thing, without diminishing it's effectiveness as a complement to existing defenses or requiring any kind of gameplay overhaul.
I love you.How about making it so that all engineers and pioneers start with free wire cutters, but they require more time than they do now to actually remove the wire. This makes it less of a "wire and forget" thing, without diminishing it's effectiveness as a complement to existing defenses or requiring any kind of gameplay overhaul.
Okay, maybe not, but still a damn good suggestion.
Searaven,
That sounds like pretty good idea. So long as you made cutting take long enough such that wire that is covered by a unit (MG or rifles etc) is almost impenetrable ie. engineers/pioneers will die before they get through. If left unguarded it's fair game.
except the only thing being used is wire in the beginning to block off choke point, and mines for traps.Most games that charge money for defences like walls and tank traps and whatnot wind up without them being used much at all.
I prefer COH's potential overuse to the definite underuse I see in other games.
I rarely see people use sandbag as ACTUAL cover; most people use it as cutter- immune wire.
Or tank trap for that matter since 90% of axis go for tiger and allies have access to croc.
In the ToH22 interview it was mentioned that it might be adjusted to just take more time to build wires. that is, in my opinion, a much better idea than free wirecutters taking longer to cut through, because you're giving the player who DOES NOT WIRE OFF EVERYTHING a penalty, basically making wiring the only viable strategy in the future.
wiring is the most annoying problem in early game and as either ally or axis, some maps will not allow you to get those 50 ammo or 35 fuel in the first 5 minutes. since the enemy will then get all the resources, by the time you cut through the wire the first armored forces are on their way towards you. i do not see this as a strategy, but more of an exploit, because you can be a better player but still lose to getting wired -literally- into your base.
avoiding these maps should be a solution? why? if one style of play makes 2-3 maps totally unplayable, its the maps fault? that means you only use workarounds but do not fix the bug itself. if i worked like that in my company, i'd be gone.
the people here defending all the wiring going on, mostly have it in their own standard "strategies". to me personally, "fun" in this game is nowhere to be found when you cannot even exit your own base on several maps. and do not try to tell me i could have avoided it. you will never know if your enemy is planning to come wire off half the map on the "known chokepoints" and if he wants to do so, he will manage to. play Seine River Docks and start in the north, just go straight to the south base with 1-2 engineers/pioneers and it only takes 3x wire to put him into his own base, with nothing but 1 control point. his allies will never be able to change that, as they are fighting their own battles far away from the big resource points the enemy is now getting. same thing on Montherme. this simply doesnt work so well in 1v1 and most people seem to think "if its balanced for 1v1, it cant hurt in teamgames".
rails&metal: pio or engineer rush to the center fuel, wiring off all exits and the victory point. if you dont rush there, the match was lost in the first 60 seconds.
play hill331 and see the first pio/engi team rush straight to the fuel/small houses or the big ammo on the sides to wire off all of the entrances to that place.
maybe in 10% of all situations it is really used to "lure" your enemy into your MG42 or bunkers or whatever, as a real tactical defensive device.
one of the first posts said he doesnt like his mg42 get run over by rifles. by the time the enemy has enough riflemen a single mg42 simply shouldnt lock down big parts of the map anymore...so thats not a good reason either.
Ok, I see your point. I don't believe that free wire cutters would lead to wire being the only viable strategy though. Increasing the time to build wire doesn't really eliminate the current problem (I use this loosely). So it takes longer, you can still wire off areas and make them inaccessible for a period without a need to defend the wire.Originally Posted by dylan
Maybe a combination is needed. Laying and cutting wire takes the same length of time, longer than now though (currently 5 seconds); wire cutters are free. This way neither player is penalised in terms of time and the wire laying player will have to defend the wire in order for it to be effective.
Making the build time too long though may mean sandbags become prefered.
However, with wire, you can throw a couple of grenades or a rocket, and BOOM! Problem solved.
I agree to ceejayoz, but i think building time of wire should be a reduced a little bit, so it will be possible to take effective countermeasures.
How about just engies/pios stop building defenses while they're being shot at?
I guess thats true. It should stay free, and ceeja is right. No one builds defenses in games that have them cost resources. IE: BFME 2, C&C. I guess I just need to be faster than my opponent.
Something with wire that annoys me... has anyone else noticed how incredibly annoying it is to use wirecutters? It seems like each piece of wire can only be cut from one side or the other, so you sometimes have to give the orders several times and generally babysit the unit in order to get the wire cut.
This seems to occur both with right-clicking on the wire with engies, or with left-clicking on the wirecutters icon on the unit menu and the left-clicking on the wire.
This has lost me games even, where I was unable to get my MP40 Volks through the wire so they could go protect my MG from incoming rifles.
Does anyone have a sensible workaround? How, exactly, do you cut wire?
I've never had them dance around to cut wire unless there's something blocking the wire(Like tanktraps on top sometimes.
I think this is the best idea.How about making it so that all engineers and pioneers start with free wire cutters, but they require more time than they do now to actually remove the wire. This makes it less of a "wire and forget" thing, without diminishing it's effectiveness as a complement to existing defenses or requiring any kind of gameplay overhaul.
what is the point of wire when opponent get have the cutter?
what is the point of tank trap if every tank can bust through it anways?
Since Wire is really the Only problem i will again suggest my Ultimate solution to the problem...
Make Wire Portable Negative cover instead of Instant-Wall
barbed wire never stopped any one. nor was it ever intended to. even your engineers say it "this Wire will slow up them Krauts" the don't say "Stop" they say "Slow"
Make troops pass through barbed wire as if it was not even there, however While they traverse the Barbed wire they would recieve Negatve cover and a 75% speed reduction while they are wading their way through it. this reflects its real life purpouse.
another thing that could be added to Make the now nerfed Wire More useful would be to make it 'lift' the fog of war around all units that are making their way through it. (think of cans tied to the Wire that rattle when some one goes through it)
With this, Wire makes all units more vunrable while they pass through it, however it removes the over powered 'Insta-wall' that stops everything Short of a Half track.
#48
I would just like to add that after several rather annoying games that barbed wire makes the first ten minutes of beaux a nightmare. The fuel point to the north which has vp and sandbags infront of it requires one .5 second wire drop to turn it to un passable for the enemy troops for several minutes, especially with mild defense so he can't go cut it.
(Previously, and still occasionally zbobet2012)
Barbed wire should be free.
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