[DC 1.11] Consolidated Necron Balance Issues Thread - Now with more!

[4Servant]

Nah crons can't think of anything else but they also got wraiths/NL and mb flayeds and vehicles in t2 wich can be backed up by tomb spyders and destroyers but no one use this cause you can just select > overwatch > right click > gg.
Also necron is fast tech is scary but then again no use NL harras with mb 1 NW and some wraiths and if its really needed a tower. Then tech to some flayeds and go eco harras while tech straight to t3.
Fucked up retarded and deadly and really adapteble aswell cause you can decide to go more destroyers in t2 and mb some more NW sqauds wich you can upgrade with the 1/2 disruption field if required.

[SubakuGaara]

Someone was telling me this in a discussion.

I'd just like to make clear that I'm in the "necrons need a nerf" camp, but I'd like to see this nerf done with as little actual effect on the units as possible. What I'd like to propose is that the pop cap on their units be raised to emulate the tabletop game wherein Necron armies are usually much, much smaller than non-Necron armies to compensate for their power. I'd even be in favor of increasing the individual effectiveness of some units if it meant this flavor could be achieved. I WANT one squad of Necron Warriors to be able to stand up to hordes of other troops, I just want the Necron player to have less squads of Necron Warriors.

To this effect, I propose that the squad caps on almost all necron units be raised. All necron infantry would get +1 to their population cost. Most necron vehicles should get a similar treatment, although I think the scarabs should remain as-is. I'd just like to make clear that I'm in the "necrons need a nerf" camp, but I'd like to see this nerf done with as little actual effect on the units as possible. What I'd like to propose is that the pop cap on their units be raised to emulate the tabletop game wherein Necron armies are usually much, much smaller than non-Necron armies to compensate for their power. I'd even be in favor of increasing the individual effectiveness of some units if it meant this flavor could be achieved. I WANT one squad of Necron Warriors to be able to stand up to hordes of other troops, I just want the Necron player to have less squads of Necron Warriors.

To this effect, I propose that the squad caps on almost all necron units be raised. All necron infantry would get +1 to their population cost. Most necron vehicles should get a similar treatment, although I think the scarabs should remain as-is

.

Seems in tt necs are being beat by being swarmed. In my opinion again only issue is the early strength of the NWs, the flayed bugs, and the super strength of some of the necron lords abilities.

Necron vehicles suck. Servant advocates destroyer, but they go down to av fire like nothing. Plus, think about it, a single destroyer does about 100 dps to hinf med and has 2000 hp and costs 250 power. A free 3 man NW squad has 3000 HP of hmed and does abotu 60 dps when fully upgraded. If you spend 100 power to add 3 more NWs, then you have 6000+ HP and 100+ DPS. Seems like a crappy buy especially when 1 horror squad can take down 2 destroyers easy.

[Switchking]

The guy from your quote seem not to look at curent squad cap of the necron infantry, which is +1 in comparison to other races which mean that You're outnumber each time(unless ofcourse You don't abuse the f***n ress orb bug, which is lame)

Also don't see any reasonable usage of double mono BO as it demand much more economic menagement than other necron BO which also provide much more faster teching, and more resources to reinforcing/upgrading of troops and moreover getting vehicles

[4Servant]

Seems in tt necs are being beat by being swarmed. In my opinion again only issue is the early strength of the NWs, the flayed bugs, and the super strength of some of the necron lords abilities.

Necron vehicles suck. Servant advocates destroyer, but they go down to av fire like nothing. Plus, think about it, a single destroyer does about 100 dps to hinf med and has 2000 hp and costs 250 power. A free 3 man NW squad has 3000 HP of hmed and does abotu 60 dps when fully upgraded. If you spend 100 power to add 3 more NWs, then you have 6000+ HP and 100+ DPS. Seems like a crappy buy especially when 1 horror squad can take down 2 destroyers easy.

Destroyers own 100 dps to heavy_med and heavy_high aswell aint nothing its way more then a ls and they are fast are build fast and wont hurt nec eco anyway when its steaming @ 100power. I don't think destroyers are imba but I think buffing ''cause they sux'' is wrong. Mb 250 hp increase but I don't want to go any further cause they are frightingly powerfull when used properly

[SubakuGaara]

yeah I'm more in line with that. I just don't think destroyers are anything to write home about. I'd instead advocate having destroyer fire do a little bit of knockback or disruption but not more than that. Especially is necs warriors get nerfed bad.

[Gostface14]

wow this dicussion is getting poor....noone is metnioning what does damage with what upgrades its just unit A at full power kills unit B while not at full power.

there arent any back ups to why necrons should be nerfed anymore its just mindless posting which i cant fully understand due to post like " NW do 60 dps to inf" because i dont know which upgrade it is....im assuming its when there fully upgraded but then 1) you have to pay 400 energy to get to that upgrade
2) there 3-4 times slower then destroyers
3) they take so much longer to build
4) by having 6 necrons warriors, who ARE stronger then the destroyers, though use up there inf cap which means you dont have anything to fight off veh or get to the enemies base fast....the crons veh are suppose to be weak but comparing them to a strong unit that scales to t3 and uses 3 pop cap isnt a good idea

(and forget about the replay im not interested anymore...someone could play until they get either lucky or good,there not gonna post something that will prove them wrong)

[Fannin]

Overreliance on Necron Warriors is the one fatal flaw of most necron players I've seen. Those who lack appreciation for the destroyer and the like is indicative of a reliance on IMBA to win, rather than genuine talent.

[SubakuGaara]

Appreciate the destroyer? True true. In the same way, for the longest time I could not appreciate the defiler nor the horror squad, but now I can't live without them. Still, unlike the defiler, I don't think the destroyer is anything to write home about, especially considering the cost. They should be used in an army, but impressive? I don't think so.

[Fannin]

It's no landspeeder, but it's good. The things put out lots of dps, on a very fast-moving platform.

[Jaigen]

i usually use destoyers to draw fire most players always assume that necrons only use heavy infantry. using 2 destroyers forces them to use av. also they are usefull to rundown once your opponent tries to escape or retreat.

H destroyers ae very usefull against ig and later on sm to hunt down the bassies and the wirlwind.

but in most cases i think destroyers once i have reached my inf cap

[Switchking]

Destroyer is better than LS on one thing-it has melee,but on the other hand it can't jump...
4 or 5 destroyers are realy srong point of every t2 necron army, but my opinion may not be considered objective as i'm an destroyer fanatic(my TT necron army has all 3 slots of Fast Attack taken by 3 sqads of 5 destroyers per squad, and i love things that those guys do to my oponents)

[Energizer Bunny]

I could live with the destroyer getting some buffs. The only issue we need to keep in mind is the speed it travels - that thing is fast as hell. That said, as Switch says, it can't jump.

[SubakuGaara]

Bah at 2000 HP, I could care less if it moves as fast as a bullet; AV fire will still bring it down in mere seconds. I'm only for vehicle buffs because the NWs will probably be nerfed. Necron vehicles don't do much but shoot and melee so its ok. For the sake of balance, the heavy destroyer probably needs a warping ability (albeit one with a relatively long cooldown) since right now its almost impossible for necron to take out artillery.

[4Servant]

No it isn't in t3 its quite tricky but HD perform just fine and also tomb spiders deploying immortals next to arty works. Of course you got do this together with solar pulse.

In t4 necs got a instant army killer in the form of the acti mono wich can be made invis and teleport right next to arty and you can tp all your troops to monolith aswell.
Necron t4 is outright imba and is way too strong aswell.

[SubakuGaara]

Aah thats right about the solar flare which is really a bitch, or maybe a stored up lighning field too... but stuff like the noobwind can run away really quickly from solar flare; funny to me how noobwind can run away from possessed, like the fastest unit in the chaos army.

Can necs teleport their vehicles to their monolith in t4 as well?

[Switchking]

Actualy if i fight some AV infantry with my destroyers i melee them and it works great
ofcourse it depend on situation, but still kinda way to save some of Your destroyers while the wraiths come for help...

[SubakuGaara]

Necron don't have a unit that manages morale.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

flayed ones
need i say more?

[Zallis]

Well, destroyer melee is both good and bad. On the one hand, you can beat the shit out of the usual shooty AV squads. But you could also have a bunch of lowly guardsmen smacking teh crap out of your destroyer, and it won't shoot back, but rather fight with its hands. The damage it does in CC though, is respectable. Heavy destroyers deal nice damage even in CC with vehicles.

On an offhand note, tankbustaz and the SM sarge w/ powerfist deal quite nice dmg in cc, so maybe it isn't such a great idea to CC those particular AV squads...

Another offhand note, more of a question: What's that tube thingy coming off the shoulder of the heavy destroyer?

[SubakuGaara]

forgot about flayed.

[Gostface14]

In t4 necs got a instant army killer in the form of the acti mono wich can be made invis and teleport right next to arty and you can tp all your troops to monolith aswell.
Necron t4 is outright imba and is way too strong aswell.

mono only goes like .001 miles per hour ( i would like a real number plz and the speed of a tac to go compare with it) and the only thing you get in teir 4 is mono and NB...the NB is annoying but it does such weak damage that ppl just ignore it even if its in there base they just build turrets and trap the lord there. mono is strong but what uber unit isnt? actually....can the mono take on any other uber unit 1 on 1? it seems to be more suited vs inf then anythig else

[Blakey85]

Well it might not have the best of move speed but it's far from setionary. Also lets not forget the teleport which basicly brings the fight to the mono. It's fine aslong as the dumb invisability ain't gonna apply to the mono.

[Gostface14]

lol do you have any idea how hard it will be to do what your saying? your not gonna get a mono to the other persons base without them knowing its not that easy to hide a huge building that gives off a huge green glow. and as soon as they notice it your gonna face down an army of anti building. and the tele isnt as useful as you think they are so wildly spread out that youll only get like 3 squads attacking at the start.

cmon someone try and use these strats they claim will work on an auto match...i could use a good laugh

[Blakey85]

Dude...i said it's ok,but you can't even start to argue it's ok for that hugh building to go invisable just cause the NL is strolling about. I'm just peachy with the mono and it's powers aslong as that goes.

[Switchking]

Zallis, You dont have to put all of your destroyers to melee, sometimes one is enough, then You simply outshoot those AV units using other destroyers...
Mostly i'm satisfied with their cc, but yes in some situation it isn't good...

This tube that You mentioned is additional sight.

[4Servant]

lol do you have any idea how hard it will be to do what your saying? your not gonna get a mono to the other persons base without them knowing its not that easy to hide a huge building that gives off a huge green glow. and as soon as they notice it your gonna face down an army of anti building. and the tele isnt as useful as you think they are so wildly spread out that youll only get like 3 squads attacking at the start.

cmon someone try and use these strats they claim will work on an auto match...i could use a good laugh

Sory dude I never reach t4 with crons in auto I mostly win in t2 however I got some tgames and custom games for you were I can show what crons can do in the hands of someone who got behind basic attack move knowledge.

[Jaimas]

You know, before the previous Necron balance thread got locked, ImmortalChaos posted a few replays in which he did not capture a single goddamned SP as Necrons, and still won the map.

If it was one replay I would suggest it was a fluke. But he did so several times. That in and of itself shows that Necrons do not need map control. 1-3 Strategic points, yes, but not map control.

So the straw man of Necrons needing map control has been officially smacked down.

Moving onto other responses:

mono only goes like .001 miles per hour ( i would like a real number plz and the speed of a tac to go compare with it) and the only thing you get in teir 4 is mono and NB...the NB is annoying but it does such weak damage that ppl just ignore it even if its in there base they just build turrets and trap the lord there. mono is strong but what uber unit isnt? actually....can the mono take on any other uber unit 1 on 1? it seems to be more suited vs inf then anythig else

OK. Pause. Hold it. That is complete, and utter horse-crap right there. The Nightbringer does respectable damage across the board to absolutely everything - it's at least as good as the Bloodthirster against most targets - and it has the single most ridiculously over-the-top damage to Vehicle_High and Monster_High armor in the game at 375dps.

To clarify, that's more damage per second than 90% of the Baneblade's weapons focused on something, and over 100DPS more than any other melee uber; even the Knarloc is nowhere close! Then we have the fact that it's invincible, lasts a minute, and is so easily exploited due to the Necron Lord appearing where he died that it's completely ridiculous. It's usable every 2 minutes, to boot, which means it's totally spammable.

I'll be getting more into the Lord, his imbalances, his artifacts, and his downsides (yes, he actually has those) later today. For now, it's time to update the frontpage!

[SubakuGaara]

and it has the single most ridiculously over-the-top damage to Vehicle_High and Monster_High armor in the game at 375dps

I dunno... maybe chaos lord attached to cultist squad with berzerk fury and daemonstrength turned on might beat it out*...but yea 375 for a freaking invincible unit is ridiculous especially since all ubers aside from bloodthirster won't be able to really run away from it.

Be sure to throw in necron lords disruption field and how it can be majorly abused. Lets talk unlimited dead zerkers in an instant.

*that is if both abilities stack which I'm not sure they do. But chaos lord flat out rocks anyway.

[Sabin76]

You mean lightning field?

[SubakuGaara]

yah... what did I say? disruption? rofl!

[Gostface14]

ive used lightning feild agiasnt an army of zerks....you'll be lucky if it fills up before he dies and it only takes away half their health

and i have trouble beliving replays because it could just be you and a friend acting so make something look true

[Hiroshi_Tea]

that's why the lighning field is used with phaseshift
charges the god damn thing without the necron losing health
however, byt using the 2, you lose 2 valuable artifact slots.
but when it's even moderatly charged,
the lightning field still does good damage

about those repalys, i believe they were automatch
so it's going to be really hard faking those

[Jaimas]

We need to discuss the Tomb Spyder for a moment; the DPS of that thing in close combat is ridiculous. The Tomb Spyder with 2 claws can dismantle most structures in an absolutely ridiculously short period of time (a generator in about 5 seconds, for example).

and i have trouble beliving replays because it could just be you and a friend acting so make something look true

That is the single most strawman of arguments I've heard since EventHorizon espoused the "just run from it" counter to Solar Pulse and the Nightbringer.
Even if he took the time to set such a thing up - which would be quite a stretch, mind you, considering how exact a player would need to play to make a good show of it, a player making tactical holes so large to allow the other player to prove a point would be so large you could drive the Monolith through it.
Seriously, a replay is proof positive and it's hard as hell to fake. Moroever, like Hiro said - it's an automatch replay, so the suggestion that it was staged goes right down the toilet.

[Zallis]

Normally, I'd say that it's low hp compensates. But the thing gets back up from where it died, so that might be a complete pain in the ass if it's in your base.

[Jaimas]

In one match I played in auto, there was a guy who kept rebuilding the damn Spyder he got in my base, over and over. The first 2 times, I managed to kill it, but the third time, he had it crap out several scarabs and then run off to the north.

You know how long it takes a Spyder with 2 claws and even a modicum of support to shred an HQ? Not long at all.

[Nobunaga]

Ok it's time to pimp my solar pulse changes again.

We all know that Solar Pulse is broken currently. The problem is that it is supposed to be a detection ability (like tainted auspex) as well as useful in influencing the battle. In order to keep the low cooldown timer needed for it to be a detection ability the horriblly OP "my gun turned off" effect needs to go.

Instead Solar Pulse should reduce accuracy by about 30%. This would still allow it to make a significant difference to a close battle. It would prevent the stupidity we have now where a single Lord with a NW squad can force an entire army to move or take significant damage. The cost may need to be reduced a little as well.

[DeathZer0]

I'd say if we reduce Solar Pulse's radius to a size where microing your troops away is still possible with some difficulties in a heated battle, it will be fine.

[Jaimas]

I must say, I like Nobunaga's idea, because it really does fix virtually every problem Solar Pulse currently has, metagame-wise.

[Switchking]

Don't You think that having only 3 TS together with their ridiculously low HP(2700 almost half of a dreadnout's HP) is good comensation of their damage?

[Jaimas]

Not when you factor in 162 DPS vs. Building_high each.

[Switchking]

But You can take it down pretty fast so it don't have a chance to deal any serious damage,CotMS +Gm with plasma works wonders on it...

[Jaimas]

It does. But it can still butcher your troops in CC, from a distance with the Particle Projector, crap out some Scarabs to eat your buildings, and pop some corpses in and toss out a squad. And then revive in your base and start the process anew.

Like I said. The OMGWTFLOL DPS on the claws isn't that bad. It's when the other stuff is factored in that it becomes IMBA-fodder.

[Blakey85]

What's the damge after it adds the partical projector? ain't it supposed to be cut in half or something?

[Jaimas]

It's halved, but still vastly higher than a Defiler's melee attack, if that's what you're wondering.

[SubakuGaara]

I actually had an issue with the tomb spyder being able to permanently break several csm squads and keep them broken with its melee attack. something like 400 morale damage from both claws right? I thought tomb spyders moved fairly fast and it the high morale damage then becomes abusive. I'm talking 3-4 csm squads on break with just 1 tomb spyder being microed. But someone said they didn't move so fast and that I was just imagining things. Still its worth looking into.

And I agree, about the building damage and the resurrection in your base issue of the spyder. thats almost as bad a orbital bombard in my mind especially if you play a race that really doesn't repair very well.

[blackpaladin05]

But someone said they didn't move so fast and that I was just imagining things.

They're maybe slightly slower than Defiler/Wraithlord but still fast enough. I too have noticed the ridiculous morale damage they cause.

To Jaimas, I don't think Spyders are nearly as broken as your post makes them out to be. First of all, Spyders cannot fulfill all those roles at once. Melee is nice, but it drops its survivability heavily with the use of scarabs, and you won't always (though a good player will) have Necron corpses to reassemble. As for the Defiler, well, its damage is teh suck and we know it.

ive used lightning feild agiasnt an army of zerks....you'll be lucky if it fills up before he dies and it only takes away half their health

No, that was you jumping an unsupported Necron Lord in the middle of 2 full squads of Berserkers with Chaos Lord and trying to use Lightning Field. You completely fail in understanding how to use LF.

First of all, unlike Imbaflare, Lightning Field has an animation startup. You have to use it in advance and time it properly.

Secondly, Lightning Field is ideally supported by another ability, Phylactery and Phase Shift to be specific. I don't think I saw either on your lord, though I can't be sure.

Thirdly, seeing as how a fully charged Lightning Field does enormous damage, your Necron Lord is NOT supposed to live through enough damage to fill it completely in one engagement. (It takes 1800 melee damage to fill it up). It's about filling it up over a few engagements or using a partially-filled Field at the appropriate opportunity.

I had a 2v2 game where I hit T3 hard with Chaos and began shredding an opposing NL with Possessed/Berzerkers while teching to Obliterators. However, being not as familiar with Necrons, I didn't notice he had Lightning Field (maybe there's no visual cue for it, I don't know), and I assumed the light damage to my Zerks/Possessed was not from the field but the NWs that were FotM-ing as I was engaging them with CSM/Raptors.

Long story short, he jumps the NL out of combat and insta-gibs half of my teammate's Guardsmen (kills 20+), kills a damaged Sentinel, and crits a 2nd yellow-health Sentinel (which is finished by the NL on ranged stance)

As I am 2v1ed, I ask him later how much the Field was filled and he answered "about 2/3".

ETA:

Sory dude I never reach t4 with crons in auto I mostly win in t2 however I got some tgames and custom games for you were I can show what crons can do in the hands of someone who got behind basic attack move knowledge.

I want to see good Necrons, there are few enough of them online as is.

[Jaimas]

To Jaimas, I don't think Spyders are nearly as broken as your post makes them out to be. First of all, Spyders cannot fulfill all those roles at once. Melee is nice, but it drops its survivability heavily with the use of scarabs, and you won't always (though a good player will) have Necron corpses to reassemble. As for the Defiler, well, its damage is teh suck and we know it.

The Defiler's pretty good, actually. An Autocannon and Flamer range buff, and it'd be good as gold. But that isn't the point.

Spyders don't have to fufill those roles. Simply getting in your base and getting themselves killed is enough to get them in position.

Again, the problem isn't the Spyder's OMG dps, its potent ranged attack, its corpse-eating, or its scarab production; it's all these things combined, backed with its ability to revive in your fucking base that makes it problematic, especially with how high its vehicle and building DPS are.

[ImmortalChaos]

I just want to clear something up here:

No one is arguing that necrons dont need nerfs, right? We are all arguing about how much they are to be nerfed? I am not making a blunt statement that necrons are OP and there is absolutely no denying that (which I easily could) I am just trying to make sure I'm on the same page as everyone.

[blackpaladin05]

Jaimas: I guess you're right. Now that I think about it, considering the Guard's atrocious pathing, I've had quite a few early-tier vehicles ripped to shreds in seconds by Spyders.
Then I learned how to properly use Sentinels and HWTs and lo and behold, it was fixed. Curse is rather useless against them though.

The revive-in-place thing is a huge pain though, and requires the Necron player to do nothing and his opponent to do extra work. Just for building a tomb sypder and getting it to the opponent's base (doesn't even have to do damage!)

ImmortalChaos: I don't think that many Necron units need nerf, and actually a few of them need buffs. The main nerfers are in the DPS and FotM catgories, but moreso their abilities and bugs (Flayed, TS, Rez).

[Jaimas]

Yeah, Immortals need a health buff (and recall) badly, especially since they need a DPS and range cut. Lightning field needs less hits to generate because it's going to have a visual effect and can't be used with the absolutely retarded Phase Shift exploit. A lot of Necron units need bugfixes.

DPSes and FOTMs and HPs are indeed one of the biggest things that need discussion, but things like NL Artifacts, the "revive where I die" mechanic, and a hell of a lot more need to be discussed as well, so don't discount them, because people have valid gripes.

Jaimas: I guess you're right. Now that I think about it, considering the Guard's atrocious pathing, I've had quite a few early-tier vehicles ripped to shreds in seconds by Spyders.
Then I learned how to properly use Sentinels and HWTs and lo and behold, it was fixed. Curse is rather useless against them though.

If you're implying that a vehicle that died in my base, and got back up because it got lucky and targeted the Psyker in my GM squad first whilst I was foolishly keeping my eyes on the front lines where the action was and micro was needed, before the Spyder crapped out about 3 Scarab Squads and went to work killing my HQ, succeeding, before I won due to Annihilate was the result of me failing to micromanage Sentinel and HWT use correctly, you're treading dangerous ground, flame-bait.