[ DC 1.2 ] Hot-Fixes

[Affenkot]

Is there a chance that DOW : DarkCrusade 1.2
is getting hot-fixed in the future?

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DarkCrusde 1.2 is closer to balanced as any version before i think, in exception what happens to the IG.
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there are still small things that has to get balanced in my opinion, so theres no need for a "big patch" with a lot of changes as we had from 1.11 to 1.2.

here some general suggestions:

- slightly nerf chaos

- nerf Eldar

- buff IG


i am very amazed how nice you balanced NEcrons, i thought they would get over-nerfed!
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added:

as soon as the balance issues category was opened the "i have to complain about IG" threads were added by the users. i think this is well-grounded.

if the whole relic-forum-moderators staff would suggest that (hot-fixing) to relic employees, maybe they listen and operate fast !? give it a try, a chance, whatever ...
but for some people nothing has changed with DC 1.2 ( especially for IG ).
its unfair and as we discussed in other threads, the people that say " lowl, lrn 2play, IG is balanced; play in another way; luwl nub nub" aren`t IG players.

the blatanly obvious things can be fixed in a week when you keep competition and fairness in mind you will be able to.

example:
necrons can turret rush; thats like IG turret rush in DC 1.11.
this can be fixed in one day. at the moment a necron turretrush is annoying players every day ...
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@RELIC:
Please,
think about hotfixing! you have done fine, now its time to bring harmony into the game!


i dont want to rant with this thread !!!!

[peturabo]

They won't buff IG because the No1 player on the ladder atm is IG.
They won't nerf chaos or eldar because they are the slghtly better balanced off the races.

They might do minor nerfs to Crons and Orks. as it currently stands: Orks=>Cron>Tau=>Eldar>Sm=Chaos>IG.

But i suspect they want to wait a few months to see how the ladder pans out.

Pet

[Affenkot]

They won't buff IG because the No1 player on the ladder atm is IG.

with 300% more games than any other of top10 this isnt a wonder, even you can be ranked at top10 if you would play 30 AM per day! it isnt an indicator that a race is balanced, this is paradox... lol

They won't nerf chaos or eldar because they are the slghtly better balanced off the races.

so they wouldnt buff a race because it is obviously underpowered, so why they should nerf a slightly better race? ok that sounds like relics policy

They might do minor nerfs to Crons and Orks.

i wouldt say what relic has to do peturabo, this can cause an allergic reaction and they decide to nerf peturabo..

how the rest likes the idea of hot-fixing instead of waiting a lot of month , when things are obvious.. i dont want to wait a further half year.

and much more interesting what relic thinks about that ?

[Octopus Rex]

Patience is a virtue.

[peturabo]

They tend to base their reactions and decisions on what the top 1v1 players think in the game.
Ask everybody who has a automatch score above 1400ish they will say:- "eldar/Chaos arent that strong, IG isnt that weak...but Orks&Necrons are by far the strongest" and those are the type of people Relic have on their beta team...the type of people who help make decisions in the patches final content.

Im not saying what Relic should do, im saying what i think they will do and i highly doubt they will be barely worried about some 1100 IG whiner leaving the game....at the end of the day they are in it for the money.

how the rest likes the idea of hot-fixing instead of waiting a lot of month , when things are obvious.. i dont want to wait a further half year.

Things arent obvious though, it will be months before things become obvious.

Pet

[DoomBringer]

I agree, but only slight nerfs, imperial gaurd need a little work both nurfs and buffs,for example the assasin got nailed with nerfs. Love the changes to chaos, the defiler now is a good fire support and its battle cannon is not just for show. I dont think elder have any usless units any more, reapers scale nicely as do harlys, and i like the changes to grav plats. I think assult marines could do with a slight buff or up grade to justify there pop cap, off the bat they are fine but latter tires the pop cap catchs up with them. I would also like to see raptors bennifit from furius charge, 10-15% that wouldnt make them over powered plus they wouldnt out shine berzerkers. But that aside i love the new patch its more fun, and we are seeing so many more units being
used, good work relic.

[peturabo]

I agree with you.
I agree Ig need buffs i agree eldar/chaos need nerfs but at the end of the day it is not likely because of the above factors i listed.

[DoomBringer]

Relic are getting better, they are taking note of player on the forums, they put a lot of things in the patch that were ideas from the community, they even fixed the preds, i have alot more faith in them now.

[Affenkot]

pet, agree with you :P

so, why these "top players" in beta team werent fair when they balance IG.
is obvious that they need AV support becuase theyr too cost expensive.
ok, this should not get into a balance thread, so back to topic.

relic, is there a chance we get an balance patch ? maybe consider posting somethung into the "DC Patch Status Thread" ???

[Slow_Runner]

I doubt that there's going to be a hotfix. There isn't anything terribly urgent that absolutely MUST be fixed right now so I really wouldn't expect a quick hot fix to anything.

[DoomBringer]

1.2 is close to being balanced, with out making some units useless, i think the patch has made it more fun as will as being better balanced.

[peturabo]

lol Go play vs a Good Necron/Orks player then.

[Slow_Runner]

Affenkot, I'm sure they'll post in the DC patch status thread when/if there's something to post.

[Affenkot]

There isn't anything terribly urgent that absolutely MUST be fixed right now

in DC 1.1 and in DC 1.11 there were things that needed getting fixed and depite that it took a very long time. for now , its a easy job for relic - just a few things !!! and its nice for IG , too.

cant you suggest that to responsible relic employees, slowrunner ?

[peturabo]

He could suggest, but they wouldnt take notice.

[Slow_Runner]

Buggo is the one who upddates the status thread. If they don't have anything to post, there's not much point in bugging them about it.

We have no idea if they are even planning on a patch yet, 1.2 has only been out a week so it might take them some time to see how the patch turns out, get some community feedback and then decide to start production of 1.3 based on the feedback.

[Infernoblaze]

Knowing relic and most game developers in general, a patch is going to be a long way off. I also fail to see how orks are the strongest team, that's funny but not for this thread, If you wish to explain that then go to the Balance forum.

[Affenkot]

as soon as the balance issues category was opened the "i have to complain about IG" threads were added by the users. i think this is well-grounded.

if the whole relic-forum-moderators staff would suggest that (hot-fixing) to relic employees, maybe they listen and operate fast !? give it a try, a chance, whatever ...
but for some people nothing has changed with DC 1.2 ( especially for IG ).
its unfair and as we discussed in other threads, the people that say " lowl, lrn 2play, IG is balanced; play in another way; luwl nub nub" aren`t IG players.

the blatanly obvious things can be fixed in a week when you keep competition and fairness in mind you will be able to.

example:
necrons can turret rush; thats like IG turret rush in DC 1.11.
this can be fixed in one day. at the moment a necron turretrush is annoying players every day ...

@RELIC:
Please,
think about hotfixing! you have done fine, now its time to bring harmony into the game!


i dont want to rant with this thread !!!!

[DatonKallandor]

Nothing needs to be fixed. Because nothing can be seen yet.

It'll be atleast a month before any issues can be seen with even a modicum of certainty.

[vosh_losh]

I played TONS of Imperial guard and As far as I seen they are balanced very very well. But now there is one thing I would like for them. Somehow cheaper guardsmen ( I know they are very cheap as it is) Its just they die so fast and I'd like to send more guardsmen into the fray (( 40,000 die a day! )) to meet the standards.

[Adonis]

Affenkot, you don't need to repost your first post. We already read it the first time and it gives the impression that you're ignoring what people have said.

[Affenkot]

i editted my first post and included my last post, i wrote "added".
i like my last post though i included it into the first..
whats the problem? i am trying to focus things ...

[peturabo]

Play vs a good ork player with any race InfernoBlaze and you will see why orks are the strongest race at the moment.

[Purple_jvs]

AFAIK Relic still have to do Quality assurance , beta testing all that kind of crap, a small hotfix could potentially cost them as much as a Large patch so why would they bother when they can get a lot fixed for the same cost.

[Affenkot]

but they can satisfy the community, because they can release more "fixes" in a period.
at least they should hot-fix some balance things! i think the game is much playable than before, but there are still issues as i posted in the initial post

[peturabo]

Save your breath and just got to the "ZomgIGisSoooooooUP" threads.

[DatonKallandor]

but they can satisfy the community, because they can release more "fixes" in a period.

If you pay for the patches, they will come.

[Noir]

AFAIK Relic still have to do Quality assurance , beta testing all that kind of crap, a small hotfix could potentially cost them as much as a Large patch so why would they bother when they can get a lot fixed for the same cost.

On the other hand, according to Bridger Relic has developed a new hotfix system in case something really serious crops up. Of course, this is more CoH than any thing else. Also, balance is a bit of a gray area.

[Purple_jvs]

Just because there is a system doesnt mean it wont cost money, it means they can do it faster and easier,

[Escushion]

As I've said elsewhere, Relic just needs to learn to do slight nerfs/buffs. We don't need more major changes; I think just little tweaks towards balance will be the right way to go rather than sweeping alterations of the game.

[Affenkot]

yes, exactly what i mean ! =D thanks ! hope dies at last..

[Arc_Salvo]

I agree that a few simple/slight changes in a hotfix would be greatly appreciated, if not outright needed. As it stands, some actual bugs (like Guardsmen Sergeants doing 0 dps to anything) still are around, and some races are a little bit too strong or weak.

Imperial Guard could definitely use a little buffing, imho. And Petarubo may be right about Orks, given that although I'm not the best player out there, I can win with them surprisingly fast with them in 1.2. Necrons I do believe are still a little overpowered. They have a slow-ish start yes, but once they get some momentum rolling, they are really tough.

[SubakuGaara]

Wonder if rewind feature will ever be introduced to replay system? Also, I wish when you name a replay with the ingame replay name, it actually changes the file name in windows. Its hell to name a replay and then have to trudge through 80 replays of that same map (I usually just do arrange modify by time and look from there, but its annoying. Whats the bloody point of naming it then?)

[Mandos]

Although I disagree with his suggested balance changes, the idea of small quick patches instead of massive ones is one I agree with completely. These don't have to be rushed, but it is both an easier and more effective policy for balancing a game.

Small patches, with small balance changes are the best way to smoothly balance the game. If something goes bad, then it can be reversed or adjusted for quickly. Screwing up a patch that comes once every six months means players suffer and the community stagnates. Not only do small changes bring the game closer and closer to perfect balance in a stable, progressive way, they keep the player base happy by showing them progress is being made.

Although I was quite happy with the big patch Relic released, and very impressed by how much Relic fixed in it, I think it was a mistake to condense it into such a big patch. many players were discouraged by problems that could have been fixed quickly, and some abandoned the game altogether. This patch could have easily been split up between 2-3 smaller patches, and still arrived at the same changes we have now. In fact, I gurentee the game would be more balanced today if the patch came in multiple stages.

The counter-point to this argument is usually that quick, "reckless" changes lead to balance problems, however these changes don't need to be in any way rediculous at any given time. With several patches, small changes can be made to a problem, and if that change isn't severe enough it can be made greater in the next patch. Relic tends to over nerf/buff things, since their patches come so infrequently, however a faster patching style would allow more gradual, conservative changes.

As an example I'd point to WC3, where Blizzard has had a stlye of small changes over numerous patches, always making gradual adjustments; the game is almost perfectly balanced now. Hell, CoH has had 4 patches since release, and it was released after DC; I think it is much better balanced then DC as well.

In conclusion smaller, more gradual patches FTW!

[Escushion]

WC3 is also what I was thinking of. Yes, some patches had mistakes in them, but they could be quickly and easily tweaked back or closer to perfection. Overall it made things quicker to balance out.

I think the DC 1.2 patch is great; we're on the right path. Hopefully it's the last mega-patch and we can see gradual small patches as things progress.

On the plus side, with Landspeeder crap and its kin gone, I feel the game is actually fun to play again.

[DirtyCajun]

The problem none of you "hot fix fans" see is it takes time to discover what is IMBA and what is simple a strat you haven't figured out how to counter. If you honestly think you've got all the counters and strat vs strats figured out already play me and I'll show you something new. I think this patch goes a LOOOONNNGG way towards balance and most of the crying right now is people unable to adapt. This patch has given us chances for new build orders if your having problems with a specific build order worker against it for a week and see if you don't find your own balances. Perhaps your weaker to a type of player rather than the race.

[Mandos]

Oh I don't want a hotfix every 2 weeks, I'm talking around every 1.5-2 months or so. That is plenty of time for players to test out balance before small changes are made. This also allows obvious bugs to be resolved faster than in giant balance patches.

[MeatPacker]

DoW/WA 1.5 and DC 1.2 seem like the best patches so far. These were both big patches where community feedback was sought and extensive playtesting with betas were done, and it shows. I hate the long waits too, but this approach seems to be the best solution.

And as to current balance issues--even in the ork vs. eldar matchup in patch 1.3, possibly the very worst racial imbalance ever, a lot of interesting ork tactics came up over those few months that, while not balancing things out, made it so the boyz had a fighting chance. It is premature to declare any racial imbalances given all the changes.

DC 1.2 needs no hotfix, except maybe around connection issues. This patch really deserves a long, hard look.

[scales]

i'd like hot fixes not to be done regarding balance, but bug fixes.
For example: IG commanders doing 0 damage in 1.2
this should be hotfixed because it is a BUG

[Grav]

I dunno. I was playing copule of games by IG vs taus, eldar, chaos, nec.
Eldar was too sure that he will win and i've outmanuvered him (he used rangers rather poorly)
Tau was a hard one but proper inf. micro and assasin still as perfect de-crisiser. Lemans as tough de-hammerheader.
Got Owned by chaos... thats quite normal to IG ;>
Necs were suppose to be challange but necron warriors are no longer a big threat in later tiers.

i'm happy as it is. Playing 1vs1 rather focuses on proper infantry micro and IG is capable to do so. ah and HWT roxor! :>

[Affenkot]

i am still the opinion 6 in 7 races aare balanced and as mentioned IG needs some bugfixes , sergeant 0 damage and a slightly buff.
also balance issues, for example ... maybe givin GM additional 20 hp per member for each tier they reach.
buff veh_high damage for sentis in T3, consider about additional armor ( +350 hp ).
this are slightly buff imo and no 1 can say that this can be OP in any way ...

[SubakuGaara]

I'm starting to be in favor of no buffs for IG. IG can be plenty tough. Watch replays by some of the higher IG players and it becomes clear.

For hotfixes they should

1)add option to include timer in auto
2)fix bug in game lobby where you get kicked out for spamming but aren't spamming
3)fix drop hack issue. It still isn't resolved
4)revise bloody hell map and add one more req point to each side.

[martyr3810]

I think its incredibly stupid to balance by looking on the ladder. 1vs1 Automatch games AREN'T all of DC. Why don't they look at something else for a change? Say... team games, bigger maps for some races and well, just about anything else.

If 1vs1 Automatch was the only thing we could play in DC it'd just be one big button to connect to an automatch - but it isn't SO BALANCE THE GAME, not Automatch!

I'm starting to be in favor of no buffs for IG. IG can be plenty tough. Watch replays by some of the higher IG players and it becomes clear.

You don't play IG, I'm not surprised.
That doesn't work outside of 1vs1.

Anyway, As the thread starter said (but with two revisions)

- Slightly nerf chaos, eldar, orkz (when I say slightly, I mean slightly - more like, fix oversights which would amount to a tiny nerf)

- Buff IG (Or at the minimum reverse the nerfs - and not just this patches nerfs)

[Spekkio]

Considering that IG becomes one of the strongest, most efficient race in later tiers, I don't get why you would think IG is weaker in team games.

[CAPcadet]

I would like to point out that the players ranked 2 and 7 on the DC ladder are IG players (as of 2200hrs -6GMT DST 03/29/07). See for yourself: http://www.dawnofwargame.com/DC_Stat...mepage.php.htm

[martyr3810]

I would like to point out that the players ranked 2 and 7 on the DC ladder are IG players (as of 2200hrs -6GMT DST 03/29/07). See for yourself: http://www.dawnofwargame.com/DC_Sta...omepage.php.htm

I would like to point out - have you looked at their statistics?

And the #2 guy has been dropping.

The other guys in that tier have 60 or so games... the #2 has upwards of 150 while the others who play something besides IG have only 40-70 games.

It took THAT MUCH work to get a IG in those top tiers.

(Except for DAS_CAPN who we all know is really just superman reincarnated and as such is not affected by the laws of physics and logic)

How's the old line go? "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics." You just tried to use the third kind.

[RedDevil]

If you take a note from the Company of Heroes forums, some members got tired of waiting, and created a "BattleTest mod." where they put in all the balance (only balance) changes, and bugfixes they thought were needed. It was largely perceived that Allies were OP, and Axis were UP. They rapidly went through about 10 patches till we are here today. They used the HotFix policy (easy when it's your mod, just change the values in the fields), and even had Relic take a look at it to see how the community accepted it.

Relic was very interested, and pleased about the community balance initiative, and even kept an eye of the feedback thread!

With some advertisement on the forums, a decent portion of the community caught on and started MP testing the mod. They even went so far as to designate a lobby channel (Sword in this case) as the place to meet for people to setup MP games and further test the mod. Community feedback lead to rapid balance changes (and often reversals back to Vanilla).

Some of those changes might make it into the next CoH patch Ver. 1.6!!

One of you guys with modding experience, or one of you that know someone with modding skills, should get off your butts and make a DoW BTMod. For those who were complaining, this was a sort of 'put your money where your mouth is' start, but turned out to be a good thing over all in the end, even if many of the changes reverted back to Vanilla balance.

P.S. The ironic thing is, beside the bug fixes, almost all the balance changes were reverted back to Vanilla in the end. Pretty funny how Relic had it balanced the best originally, when compared to 7 out of 10 of the BTMod versions. But it took the changes to finally get the whiners to shaddap!

P.P.S. Maybe this is what it will take to get the IG's chip off their shoulder?

[martyr3810]

RedDevil. Jaimas and others worked on our own patch/mod where we fixed IG and balanced everything... and Relic ignored it totally with the last patch. A 130 page thread and we had MADE OUR OWN PATCH/MOD - and RELIC IGNORED it. Lol.

Your post does nothing for our hopes.

And I said in another thread that if they just REVERSED the nerfs then IG would be fine, not great but ok. They don't need huge buffs - although some slight ones ARE in order, they aren't gamebreaking w/o.

[DatonKallandor]

RedDevil. Jaimas and others worked on our own patch/mod where we fixed IG and balanced everything... and Relic ignored it totally with the last patch. A 130 page thread and we had MADE OUR OWN PATCH/MOD - and RELIC IGNORED it. Lol.

Except that your balance changes were for a largely unchanged situation. 1.2 completely threw the entire previous mechanics apart. Your Changes were invalid.

[Affenkot]

maybe its like DC 1.2 where all other races were some races were blatantly overpowered in comparision to IG matchups. ( eldar-ig / nec-ig MU )

imo, there are still imba on some races and if relic would mind to nerf them, the Matchups would be balanced.
so i think, the IG-Chaos and Eldar-IG Mu ist still broken , not because IG is too much UP , its just that Eldar and Chaos overpowered. if you dont believe it you will find out in 4-6 months hehe
there are two options:
- slightly buff IG
- nerf some races ( chaos / eldar & orks a bit )