Have all bugs/exploits/not fully finished features only been to Allies advantage?

[RedDevil]

I was just thinking about this. Can anyone remember if ever, I mean ever, was there a bug that hurt the allies through any of the patches? I am also including things like, missing veteran values as a "bug" when it's actually an unfinished (or forgotten) feature.

Note: this is not a balance discussion. This is a History of bugs, unintended effects/results of changes. They also have to have a negative effect on only one side.
Also: this is not a "Relic Bashing Thread". There is no conspiracy against, or hate of axis on the part of Relic. Just think about how small Relic is, and the fact that they have become #1 because they make great games, not because they throw money around, or have a famous name that will sell anything.



All the ones I can think of off the top of my head seam to only hurt Axis:
1)Sherman Smoke bug
2)Sherman clipping bug
3)Axis mortars/nebel does more damage to axis units than allied units.
4)Axis mortar smoke shells damage axis infantry when they land.
5)Missing Veteran lvl 2 for Volksgrenadiers and Knights Cross Holders
6)Axis tank traps not working
7)100% engine damage to the Puma
8)Flak88 doesn't get veterancy
9)Panzershrek misfiring bug
10) Grenadiers unable to rebuild a lost Panzershrek if it already had two
11) Pak38s on hold fire still have that one man that shoots all the time
12) Cloaked Pak38s can be detected by allied players "mousing over" them. The mouse icon will show a green shield (heavy cover) when it passes over the gun. A dead give away if your mouse is showing green cover in an open field, or anywhere else.
Updates:
13) Axis Flammenwerfer upgrade costing 20 fuel pre-1.3. It was apparently an "attribute data value error". Ergo, bug.
14) Buggy Straifing Run that fires across the whole map, not just between brackets.
15) Axis HT not recieving it's flamer after upgrade
16) Allied M10 tank exponentionally more affective at running over infatry, making it the cheapest AT, and Anti-infantry vehicle in the game. Code named: The Lawnmower
17) Allied Jeep bouncing "deflect" Tiger/88 Shells.



The only bug I can think of that hurt Allies was:
1) Rangers had to purchase Thompsons again forsoldiers gained from reinforcing.
Updates
2) Storm Troopers retreat while cloaked, snipers do not.
3) Axis snipers reducing ammo income pre-1.3
4) Buggy Bombing Run for Airborn
5) Axis Halftrack Walking Stuka upgrade sometimes retains front MG
6) Panzerfaust would track and insta-kill cloaked allied snipers. Panzerfausts would also kill a lone sniper in a building. Definately unintended.


I'm sure there have been many other bugs in the past that I have forgotten. What do you think?

Seams like thus far most of the glitches in the game have had a negative impact on the Axis. I guess it's not just my imagination!

[Henkie]

Well, there was the Axis "demolish your HQ bug" which has been fixed in 1.4

I think a lot of the "Allies are OP" thingies have to do with the singleplayer campaign. The SP and the MP are running the same engine arent they?

If Relic buffs the Axis a lot, they will have to worry about new players buying the game for the SP campaign and not being able to win the game.

[Sn1tch]

Are you serious about #12? Is that bug still there?

[ugordan]

TBH, there's at least one other bug in axis favor which was just brought up to my attention again: storms retreating in camo, unlike snipers which decloak. They retreat full speed, too. Not a game-breaking bug as some of the allies-favored ones are, but still.

[drChengele]

I've got to add:

13) Axis snipers reducing ammo income pre-1.3
14) Axis Flammenwerfer upgrade costing 20 fuel pre-1.3. It was apparently an "attribute data value error". Ergo, bug.

[DatonKallandor]

8)Flak88 doesn't get veterancy
Confirmed non-bug

3)Axis mortars/nebel does more damage to axis units than allied units
Unconfirmed - could be bug, could be intended

5)Missing Veteran lvl 2 for Volksgrenadiers and Knights Cross Holders
Confirmed non-bug

[ugordan]

3)Axis mortars/nebel does more damage to axis units than allied units
Unconfirmed - could be bug, could be intended

Yeah, I can definitely see the reasoning behind that.

5)Missing Veteran lvl 2 for Volksgrenadiers and Knights Cross Holders
Confirmed non-bug

Where is it confirmed?

[DatonKallandor]

Buggo stated they took out veterancy bonus because it was too strong. They didn't get around to insert a replacement yet. Ditto for Flak 88.

[ugordan]

Buggo stated they took out veterancy bonus because it was too strong.

Yep, we wouldn't want volks to be able to stand up to BARs or strafing runs, would we?

So when can we expect Croc damage to get reduced because it is too strong?

*waits*

[DatonKallandor]

That has nothing to do with the topic. The Croc is not a confirmed bug either.

[Reverie]

Wasn't the croc buffed because the Sherms were too strong? What will they buff this time? the Quad?

Seriously tho, 1.6 is the last straw for me.

[ugordan]

Yeah I know it has nothing to do with the topic. I'm just bewildered by the double standard they have on stuff being too powerful and stuff being fine.

[Tropper]

There is also the Axis HT Flamer bug: when you upgrade your HT with Flamer sometimes you spend 100 munition and get nothing because the Flamer doesn't work. Take a look into the bug sub forum to find ore information. AFAIK no one ever reported that this happened to the Allied HT with the Quad upgrade.

TBH, last time i have seen this bug in 1.5 - never saw it in 1.51 so far. But that is maybe only because i don't build a Axis HT anymore.

[drChengele]

Buggo stated they took out veterancy bonus because it was too strong. They didn't get around to insert a replacement yet.

Nice. So it's not a bug, it's just an ommission that they didn't get around to insert a replacement yet for FIVE ***ING PATCHES.

Ditto for Flak 88.

Flak actually received veterancy from KKC, but since a patch (1.2 or 1.3 I think) it didn't. The bonuses are still there, only Flaks have to get them by killing insane amounts of enemy troops.

If that's not a bug, then it's an unadressed design ommission, which is actually even worse.

P.S. I see a lot of Axis HT bugs, but to be honest, it sometimes works to Axis benefit, e.g. one game I had a Walking Stuka with a frontal MG still sticking out.

[DatonKallandor]

Nice. So it's not a bug, it's just an ommission that they didn't get around to insert a replacement yet for FIVE ***ING PATCHES.

Except that they only took it out about 2 or 3 patches ago.

[drChengele]

If you refer to the quote I made, it relates to KCH and Volks veterancy, and I'm pretty sure their vet2 bonus has been missing since 1.0. If you don't believe me, here's the back-and-forth between you and ugordan:

5)Missing Veteran lvl 2 for Volksgrenadiers and Knights Cross Holders

Confirmed non-bug

Where is it confirmed?

Buggo stated they took out veterancy bonus because it was too strong. They didn't get around to insert a replacement yet. Ditto for Flak 88.

[ugordan]

By that reasoning we can except to see the Croc returned to a more normal state soon, right?

[DatonKallandor]

Both the Flak Veterancy and the Volks/KHC Veterancy Lvl 2 got removed somewhere around 1.3-1.4. Neither are bugs - they were removed intentionally. The Croc is not a confirmed bug, either.

Those are facts, not balance discussion issues, which are not the thing this thread is about.

[drChengele]

Neither are bugs - they were removed intentionally.

Oh, well, then it's not the game that is buggy, it's the balance team.

The Croc is not a confirmed bug, either.

I believe someone from Relic, probably Relic Balance Guy That Appeared On That ToH (everyone seems to call him by that name, might as well capitalize it), said something along the lines of them not being happy with the Croc's damage, so they increased a variable to match with Axis HT, but it achieved way too much of an effect for some reason and that it is being looked into.

[ugordan]

OK, to recap only the most severe, game-breaking bugs:

* Sherman Smoke bug -- Severe
* Sherman clipping bug -- Severe
* Axis tank traps not working -- Major
* 100% engine damage to the Puma -- Major
* Panzershrek misfiring bug -- Major

How many of them are crippling the allies (and only allies, i.e. ones affecting both sides don't count)? Count them.
I can think of one at the moment, failed bombing runs where planes never arrive. Then again, so are failed panzerfausts.
I will refrain from mentioning the M10 running over infantry "feature" at the moment, it may or may not be regarded as game breaking, depending on how hard you got steamrolled.

[Azraiel]

The upgrade to volks made them actually better than knights cross holders if they had mp40's, iirc, that is why it was removed. The upgrade would have made no change at lvl 2, because it makes their type the same as knights cross holders (type affects incoming weapon accuracy and damage and things like that).

[Virigoth]

@DantonKallandor

Both the Flak Veterancy and the Volks/KHC Veterancy Lvl 2 got removed somewhere around 1.3-1.4. Neither are bugs - they were removed intentionally. The Croc is not a confirmed bug, either.

Those are facts, not balance discussion issues, which are not the thing this thread is about.

Get your facts right about the 88. Buggo stated that they had some sort of code or script side problem with making 88 recieve veterancy upgrades from Support Vet like it should, and they were looking to fix it. Ie: Something got snafued in one of the patches, it's a bug, and they are looking to fix it.
http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost...0&postcount=20

The KCH/Volks vet2 upgrade you're also wrong about. KCH/Volks had their vet2 values removed before retail release beacuse balance team thought they were too strong.

[JagdAlex]

Then let's F***in hope that they will come up with something for them at level 2 Vet. Not something utterly badass but at least something FFS. This game has been Allied biased by the balance/design team at least since 1.3 (the moment I started playing the game) I heard that in 1.2 the Ostwind was utterly badass and the Puma really cheap but since then it as always been in Allies favors.

My big disapointement when I was sure that they had fix the 88 vet bug in 1.5! They better fix it in 1.6! And let's hope that 1.6 will be THE MAJOR and hopefully more or less FINAL patch for balance!

[drChengele]

Now I am not a moderator, but I don't see any reason this thread should be locked. The fact is that the majority of bugs/exploits work in favor of the allies and therefore we have a right to discuss it - albeit peacefully. A balance forum is a perfect spot for such a discussion. Enough posts have been indirectly locked by DatonKallandor already .

As for 1.6, I believe it was primarily intended as DX10/Vista patch, but I am not sure about that.

Let's just hope Buggo's compiled requests list does the trick. I still remeber how one guy's suggestion in the 1.5 suggestion thread got copied into the changelog verbatim. He suggested moving Fortify the Perimeter to 1CP and Flak Cannon to 3CP, and fixing a bug where a unit could not be selected under heavy loads. (a-ha! found it). Makes you think that maybe, just maybe, this time they'll get it right so that all three sides are pleased - Allies, Axis and Random.

Edit: inserted links and smilies.

[Deathscythe61]

I believe that the reason axis have more bugs are because of hte order of creation - they probably made all Allied units and abilities for the most part before going to axis. Basically, this means that Axis had less time for polish.

That's my guess anyway.

Edit: You should also look at BT changes, supposedly Hiro from that mod met with Relic's head designer about implementing BT changes (Reading the GR BT forums)

[LTSearchEngine]

also, every once and a while, after retreating with camo on, they will go full speed with camo on when you deploy them back to the battlefeild.

From another thread. True, and a moderate-level bug which is pro-axis. Found one!

What do you want to bet its one of the two fixed in the next patch?
Not that I mind, exactly -- its a bug, it should be fixed. Just, fix all the other ones too, please...

[Snipermanic]

the 88 does get veterancy from kills but its like an insane amount of kills and ive only ever got it to 2 stars against the computer

[RedDevil]

I'm keeping the missing lvl2 Veterancy for Volksgrenadiers, and KCH. Buggo and other Relic employees have stated that it wasn't present before shipping. It was removed because KCH already had Herioc armour, so lvl2 was redundant, and adding Herioc armour to Volksgrenadiers with MP40's were almost more powerful than KCH, meaning you had no reason to buy them over regular volks.

However, they have said that there was supposed to be some kind of lvl2 veterancy for them, but "we never got around to it." Meaning they had more important things to do before launch, and more important things to do for patch and server support after. Honestly, the missing values weren't even noticed for the first 3 patches as Veterancy was almost never used; it was thought to be worthless.

The Flak88 always used to get veterancy, but then became broken. It is a bug, and was not removed because "it was too powerful". It was supposed to have been fixed in 1.5, but it's still not working.

[scales]

I play both DoW and CoH, what you get to realise is that relic sucks at balancing games

[GodWin]

Guys nothing is OP and nothing is useless. Funny thing
in GR.org in the Allies strat forums there is a topic for Flaks are OP
in Axis there is a topic for Flaks are Useless.
thx for the #12 im gonna use that.

[Nerdinheimer]

I play both DoW and CoH, what you get to realise is that relic sucks at balancing games

I played DoW for years, and as soon as they got the balance team in they actually did a very good job at balancing DoW. So you, my friend, are talking out your ass.

[scales]

I'm talking out of my ass? You sir are an idiot
I'll name a few original
Dow = invicible seer council
WA - SM AT spam
DC 1.0 Tau/Necron = gg
DC1.2 IG = lol

Problem with relic balance team is that instead of fixing a bug and testing the result they fix the bug nerf/buff it at the same time. THis is a retarded process.

don't call me your friend

[Ecthelion]

I mentioned this point a long time ago, was going to make a post about it but realized it was obvious. I guess it wasn't lol

But yeah, all the major bugs and the vast majority of the minors one have all favored the Allies.

The crazy guy from Mail Call runs Relic, I'm convinced.

[RedDevil]

Guys this thread is not about overpowered units, nor is this about Dawn of War. It's about 'unintended behaviour' "UB" in the game. The thread was started not to bitch about balance, but because I could think of 12 UB's that negatively affected the axis, and maybe 1 UB that negatively affected Allies.

I wanted to ask others if they could confirm my thoughts that the number of UB's that affect Axis dwarfed the allies.

Please take your debates about balance elsewhere.

[scales]

@ RedDevil i believe that relic should fix these bugs before buffing/nerfing anything.

[Nerdinheimer]

You sir are an idiot

don't call me your friend

lol. If you want to put your ideas out there, you need to be able to take a bit of criticism without getting your back up, and jumping in with the insults. Obviously, this isn't the place to talk about DoW balance issues, except to repeat my earlier statement:

as soon as they got the balance team in they actually did a very good job at balancing DoW

I've been around for long enough to have seen the process Relic went through with the introduction of their balance team. I suspect from your comments, and your DoW/WA example, you haven't. So just relax a little and have a bit of faith.

Perhaps I shouldn't have suggested you were using lower orifice in the creation of your ideas, and if I hurt your feelings, I apologise.

[scales]

I'll make it clearer Nerd.
Relic balance team have a stupid way making balance changes. They will fix a bug affecting a particular unit/strategy then nerf/buff it at the same time.

What they should be doing is fixing the bugs monitor the results then apply balance changes.

I do believe that you are speaking out of your lower orifice. Moron.

[LTSearchEngine]

and adding Herioc armour to Volksgrenadiers with MP40's where almost more powerful than KCH.

That makes me so angry I want to spit. Typical handling of axis balance. Rather than buffing KCH 2nd vet to make them shine again, they nerf volks 2nd vet. Of F-ing course.

This game is making me bitter.

[RedDevil]

Nerdinheimer.

scales.

Take it elsewhere please.



LTSearchEngine: Yeah, they could have given them something different than Heroic Armour as well. Even some token thing "like build 5 seconds quicker" for those two units, but it wasn't intentionally done like some are making it out to be. It was simply missed before release, and they had enough on their plate balancing the stock game after release before they threw in even more variables with Vet.2 abilities for Volks/KCH. Still it makes the list.

On another note, KCH are already godly, and the MP40 Volks would only be more powerful because they would act similar to a 5 man KCH sqaud. It would be silly!
But it's still annoying that you pay full price for the veterancy with two units not gaining any benifit except another dot over their head.

[Reverie]

Yeah LTS, alot of players have gotten bitter. I don't touch vanilla anymore.

I guess they have some uber axis player in the balance team or sth. Seriously when you keep introducing new IMBA bugs through patches(ie, supposed to fix bugs?) it's bound to get suspicious.

[Moe]

scales if you can't make your points without flaming then don't bother posting. Nerdinheimer, I'd tell you to knock it off as well but it seems that you've already apologized.

[drChengele]

Two units that are used very often, by the way. Well, ok, KCH weren't pre-1.5 because nobody built Panzer Command. But still...

P.S. Nerdinheimer didn't do anything wrong, scales is the one who started name-calling and flames, Nerdinheimer was decent all along.

[scales]

Actually drChengele Nerd said i was talking out of my ass which was a flame.

Relic needs to start addressing bugs and balance in DIFFERENT patches.

[FloppieTheBanjo]

Both the Flak Veterancy and the Volks/KHC Veterancy Lvl 2 got removed somewhere around 1.3-1.4. Neither are bugs - they were removed intentionally.

That's even worse than a bug.

The KKC specifically indicates that Flak 88s benefit from veterancy. I've been spending resources on veterancy thinking I was getting something out of them, since THE GAME TELLS ME I DO.

The same goes for the missing veterancy for the other units. I can understand if they want to nerf it a bit to fix a balance issue, but removing it so that I spend resources to buy a whole bunch of nothing is NOT a nerf. That's no different than calling in a bombing run, losing the muntions, and not dropping any bombs.

[drChengele]

Sorry for bumping the 2 week old thread, but then I guess it is not bad for it to be visible on the radar as 1.6 approaches.

I just realized that of all the listed bugs, the following are present in 1.5. My personal opinion on them being fixed or not is given in colors.

3)Axis mortars/nebel does more damage to axis units than allied units. - I have no idea if they are fixing this one, but I doubt Nebels will get any more attention.
4)Axis mortar smoke shells damage axis infantry when they land. - a minor one, doubt it will be included.
5)Missing Veteran lvl 2 for Volksgrenadiers and Knights Cross Holders - heavily spammed on Buggo's official 1.6 thread. Will be fixed. Expect a token increase in HP.
7)100% engine damage to the Puma - will definitely be fixed.
8)Flak88 doesn't get veterancy - also spammed, probably fixed.
9)Panzershrek misfiring bug - I'm afraid this one is programming related and as such can't make any predictions. Frankly, I doubt it.
10) Grenadiers unable to rebuild a lost Panzershrek if it already had two - probably fixable. Not sure if it will be looked into.
11) Pak38s on hold fire still have that one man that shoots all the time - not a burning issue. Probably left unadressed.
12) Cloaked Pak38s can be detected by allied players "mousing over" them. The mouse icon will show a green shield (heavy cover) when it passes over the gun. A dead give away if your mouse is showing green cover in an open field, or anywhere else. - The way game engine works, I don't see this one fixed without a lot of additional programming.
16) Allied M10 tank exponentionally more affective at running over infatry, making it the cheapest AT, and Anti-infantry vehicle in the game. Code named: The Lawnmower - if there is any justice in the world, they will definitely do something about m10
2) Storm Troopers retreat while cloaked, snipers do not. - BT fixed this easily, 1.6 will if they get to it.
4) Buggy Bombing Run for Airborn - a programming bug, probably. It might get addressed. Or not.
5) Axis Halftrack Walking Stuka upgrade sometimes retains front MG - it happens rarely, is a programming error, and is not exactly game-breaking. It stays.

So why did I just do this? To ask a question. If all the "green ones" are fixed, as I strongly suspect they will be, do you feel the game will be more balanced? In my opinion, decent veterancy for Volks/KCH/Flaks, Puma bug fix, and m10 stomp fix - these alone would do wonders for the current balance. Now if in addition to all this they nerfed SF and Croc, and slightly buffed Terror and Infantry, we'd be in heaven.

That is, as long as the balance team doesn't get trigger happy as in 1.5's Armor tree changes/bike nerf.

[Bonnet]

I think the engine damage to the puma fix would actually play a significant role in balancing the game play, because tier 3 would be mildly viable again and act as an excellent support to tier 2, essentially make a tier 1-2-3 strategy not only viable but useful.

[DatonKallandor]

Chengele, you can expect all the engine related bugs (pak heavy cover, halftrack upgrading, etc.) to be fixed with Opposing Fronts. They had to crack open the deeper code for that anyway, and they have a history of improving the engine in expansions/supplements/sequels. If CoH were the last game to use the engine, you'd get the engine bugs fixed in a bigger patch (which it isn't so that's moot).

[Bonnet]

Just a note on Daton's post, that means those bugs will be fixed regardless of whether or not you buy OF in a patch for CoH.

[Jinker]

I agree with the original post, allies are stronger and it takes a great axis player to win most of the time. Also, just to add to the possible bug list, I had my sniper sniped by an allied AT gun today. The irony was lost on me as my playing skills were lowered by the rage that enveloped me soon after. Not to mention (accurately and yes I have the replay should anyone care to argue with this) around 12 of my volks were sniped off by allied at guns in that match. That is over 2 volks squads, folks.

[Valdarez]

These are a few I can think of off the top of my head.

These bugs are for both Axis/Allies:

Stuck AT Gun Bug - Where you reman an AT gun after the initial squad has been killed, but then can't move the AT gun. It remains stuck in place until killed or the end of the game.

Unit(s) Stuck Crawling Bug - Where a Squad comes under fire and begins to crawl, but one or all of the units never come out of the crawl position.

Building Barbed Wire Bug - Where you can barb wire a building and units can continue to enter the building, but not exit it.

Path Finding Bug - Affect all units, particularly tanks.

Lose Cloaking Bug - Where a cloaked Unit, usually a Sniper, can been seen on a map

Unit Dies / Retreat Bug - This is where a unit you have selected dies, and then it automatically switches you to the previously selected group. So when you hit the retreat button, the wrong unit returns to base. (Note this refers to a different ctrl sqaud, for examples ctrl + 1 and ctrl + 3).

Allies Only Bugs:

Allies Jeep Repels Tiger Shots Bug - Unrealistic replling of Tank fire.