Florida and the strange things Floridians do

[Partizan]

This is just a quickie about Florida and the college system here. I'm a UF economics student and am naturally curious about fiscal matters. Here in Florida, there is a Bright Futures scholarship which basically pays the full college tuition of any Florida resident who meets the criteria; a certain GPA, SAT score and volunteer hours (75 hrs I think) is all it takes. Now, this is clearly a cross-subsidy, but I always thought it was financed by tax dollars, which would've made it OK. It turns out majority of Bright Futures money comes from the sale of lottery tickets.
Why is this wrong?
If you look at college attendance demographics, the average college student (especially at UF) has a somewhat higher income than the FL average (I'm talking about the student's family's income). The average lottery player is barely above the poverty line. So basically, the state of Florida finances the college education of the middle class with the "hope money" of the poor. Nothing dramatic and visibly evil, but if you ask me, pretty wrong :/ .

[Energizer Bunny]

I assume that as a scholarship it is made available to the under priviledged? Surely it is therefore lottery money going to a good cause? Surely the kid who gets it will not be wealthy

[Partizan]

No, unfortunately the scholarship is for ALL florida residents who meet the GPA/SAT reqs, and most often goes to rich/middle class white kids. If you look at the average recipient of this scholarship it would be a mid\high middle class person, as opposed to the average lottery player, who tend to be much poorer.

[roflmao]

Using tax money would be horrible, far from ok. Using lotterry money, why not? I mean, if someone wants to risk their money at the lottery, its their fault, to whatever purpose that money goes to is irrelevant.

[Retroboy]

Sorry, don't know that much about how Florida scholarships raise their funds. But I bet you could find similar ironic sources of income for many otherwise noble or philanthropic efforts if you tried. This one just doesn't seem that odd to me.

Maybe a good discussion topic based on this rather odd example might be "irony and fundraising"?

-- Retro

[Dumas1]

Georgia's been doing this for over a decade with the HOPE scholarship funded by lottery dollars. Our pre-Kindergarten and some other educational programs also get a cut of the revenue. I'm not sure if the HOPE originally had an income cap or not...I kinda remember reading it was removed at some point.

The goal was to make college more affordable to students with high GPAs but low incomes...and to keep more of the top high school graduates studying in Georgia.

[TheDividedGod]

...you mean like living in an area that is contantly hit with massive hurricanes?

[ceejayoz]

I'm sorry, what's the better cause that lottery money should be going to, again?

If it was going to porn for millionaires, I'd be pissed. Education? Hooray!

[Bobacanoosh]

I'm from Georgia, and happily benefit from the HOPE scholarship. If people want to blow their money, then why not let them spend it on education. My guess is that anyone who buys lottery tickets to excess would end up spending the money on something equally frivolous anyway. I'll admit that's a big generalization, but I'd still bet the exceptions are in a very small minority.

Besides, I know a lot of otherwise intelligent people who play the lottery on a lark of buy a ticket as a joke/gift.

Furthermore, you also shouldn't forget that these programs allow more students to afford a university education. At least in theory, this should have a substantial positive impact on the economy.

[mlai]

I don't see what so wrong about it. Ppl who buy lottery tickets from the state is giving their money to the gov't voluntarily, for whatever purpose the gov't deems fit.

Would you have been happier if the money went to subsidies for Big Lumber?

[Alpha_Monkey]

Sounds like the controversy stems from the fact that the money would be better directed at those who can't afford the higher education, while letting the rich kids pay their own way. Makes sense to me. Why donate funds towards people who don't need them?

[mlai]

Um, no. The scholarship is based on your scholastic achievement, not your financial situation.

The fact that it's harder for poor kids to be high achievers is an unfortunate happenstance.

What they could do is make the criteria something like you have to be the highest achieving % of the poor category.

[Partizan]

Thank you alpha monkey for being the only one who understands where the wrongness lies. We have poor people subsidizing rich people's education. It's a reverse tax bracket....

Unfortunate happenstance? Do you by any chance mean the result of poor social structure due to 100s of years of poor policies?

[Aron_DeTomado]

We have poor people subsidizing rich people's education

By their own choice, I might add. They are perfectly free to not purchase those lottery tickets.
Oh, and BTW, poor does not equal stupid, for some reason people seem to be under the impression that poor people shouldn't have to rely on academic achievement as much as not-poor people.

[Bobacanoosh]

Not to mention that many of the measurements of how much money a person can afford for education are incredibly unfair. My parents have planned my college fund from the beginning, but when it comes to demonstrated need they would be better off if they had just wasted the cash instead of saving it, especially since they have retirement accounts from when they were self-employed, which are counted as money they can spend even their employee retirement accounts wouldn't be considered if they were working for someone else.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Hmmm..

By their own choice, I might add.

This doesn't seem tenable to me. It has nothing to do with what use the money is put; if it went to the "Porn for Millionaires" subsidy, it'd still be 'their own choice'. Besides, state governments and groups of state governments have an effective stranglehold on the lottery business, it's not like you can go and play someone elses lottery.

The volunteer hours requirement seems troubling. The poorer students must work and so finding time to volunteer is much more difficult for them. So I think Partizan is correct that this mainly goes to richer students. Richer students who do a lot of volunteer work, admittedly, but still students who largely don't need scholarships.

It reminds me of the ?trouble? that the nonprofit sector has with well meaning trust funders. There are quite a few people willing to work charity jobs for nothing, which renders actual nonprofit *jobs* that pay money difficult to justify.

[Aron_DeTomado]

TDS, that does not change the fact that people play the lottery by their own choice, and the fact that more poor people seem to do it isn't something you can blame the gov't for. Sure, gov't monopoly (weather de facto or de jure) might be a bad thing, but it is an issue wholly unrelated to how poor people waste their money. I mean, its not as if playing the lottery is an essential need, or even a widely demanded want. Besides, maybe if they weren't wasting their money on gambling they might actually have a chance of becoming not-poor. Poverty can be self-induced, you know.

[roflmao]

Look, I can choose to buy a lottery ticket or not, as Aron says, they are doing it because they want to, and that money has to go somewhere. So why not send it to education? Its not stealing of any form.

On the other hand, with tax cuts, its simple assenine and fucking stupid. Because it is by force, and I should not be giving money to pay for some kids education, let the kid pay for his own education.

[The5thElephant]

Awww, bad thread title.

I thought this was going to be an entertaining discussion of silly old Floridians and how slowly they drive.

[Blackmain]

I have had a job since my Sophmore year in high school and I have managed to rack up 300ish volunteer through out my time in high school. While I admit I don't really need the bright future scholar ship, as seeing I am "one of those rich white kids". But I don't see why I don't deserve the same treatment as any other hard working high school graduate. Another person may not have the same financial situation as I do but didn't we both work hard to maintain a 3.7 average and volenteer? I understand he may need more help then I do in terms of financial aid but there are lots of scholar ships and financial aid programs out there. There should be some kind of equiality here.

[LowBrow]

It's not that bad, people buy lottery tickets cause they want free money, and no one held a gun to their head to do it.... so I don't see a problem here. At least it's a decent contributor for a free education, which as I understand in the states can be a Godsend and not put you in debt for 10 years after you get outta school.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

But I don't see why I don't deserve the same treatment as any other hard working high school graduate.

Because you can afford college. Which is not to say you deserve no scholarships just because there are poorer people than you. Just that other people may need it more. On average, then, scholarships should be slanted towards the poor end of the spectrum. Merit is purely subjective, and can be discriminatory. (Which is the point of the volunteer hours bit.)

TDS, that does not change the fact that people play the lottery by their own choice, and the fact that more poor people seem to do it isn't something you can blame the gov't for.

I don't think taxes should go to the groups that pay them; that's an absurd way to run a government. Earmarking certain taxes for certain purposes is complicated enough already to give me a headache. I just think that 'it's voluntary' is a specious argument, since it applies no matter what the state spends the money on.

Lotto funds are public funds just like any other. It's revenue, just like taxes. If the money from bus tickets or liquor sales were earmarked towards the "Porn for Millionaires" initiative, I'd kick up a fuss. It's voluntary as well.

Seperately, I also agree that the scholarships favor the more wealthy.

Because it is by force, and I should not be giving money to pay for some kids education, let the kid pay for his own education.

Huh?

[No Surrender]

Perhaps a suitable method of reform would be to make the fund available to students who reach a certain GPA, meet certain requirements and fall into a lower income bracket? That would see the money going towards the truely needy rather than some rich kid who just wants a free ride to university.

[Langy]

If the poor kids do well in school, they too can get the bright futures money - it's not difficult. The volunteer hours are only for the 100% scholarship - it pays all of your tuition and all - while you can still get 75% of tuition without doing any community service. Plus, doing 75 hours of community service is easy - just do a few hours a week for a semester and you're golden. The main reason more 'rich, white people' get the scholarship instead of 'poor people' is because it's merit-based rather than needs-based, and apparently poor people aren't good at schoolwork. I'm perfectly happy not flooding the universities (which are already overcrowded) with people who aren't going to be able to pass the courses, and I could care less where the money comes from.

[Alpha_Monkey]

The main reason more 'rich, white people' get the scholarship instead of 'poor people' is because it's merit-based rather than needs-based, and apparently poor people aren't good at schoolwork.

Mmmhmm, yeah, you try working two jobs between studies and see how your grades fare. Hell, even Spiderman couldn't keep it up.....

[Aron_DeTomado]

If you're in High school and need two jobs to make ends meet, that's either a problem of the welfare system, or with social services, not something you can blame on scholarship policies.

[Tak]

Unlike tax money, which isn't option (and is a whole thread unto itself), lottery revenues are entirely optional. If people don't like how the lottery is being run, write to the organizing body. If they don't change, quit playing. There is no law forcing you to play, rich or poor.

That the lottery is mainly played by the poor speaks more to the mindset of the poor than to the inequality of the system. Everyone has equal chance to get a lottery ticket, and everyone has equal chance to benefit from the scholarship. A poor person thinking they have a better chance of winning 1:1mil odds than saying up and getting over the poverty line (and I know it can be done, I grew up watching my mother do it *without* government help) means either a) lack of accepting personal responsibility, b) lack of sound financial sense/education, or c) lack of useful programs to correct either of the above through affordable and practical education/programs.


EDIT: Alpha, the scholarship is awarded based on performance at the high school level, not college/university level (that's when it benefits them). Most high school students, rich OR poor, don't even have to work one job as they have no financial responsibilities. And no, wanting to go to the movies or get those new shoes is not a 'financial responsibility'

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Most high school students, rich OR poor, don't even have to work one job as they have no financial responsibilities.

Heh. No...

[Energizer Bunny]

I have to say I kinda agree with the original poster to a large extent. Lottery money should go to a good cause, and whilst anybody's education is considered a good cause, if the sponsorship goes to a kid who can already afford college without issue, I think that muddies the waters. If I had any influence (which after careful consideration I have decided I don't) I would make it available only to kids who are unlikely to be able to go to college without it

[Merturk_NB]

I've lived in many states in the southeast U.S.

I've been to 6 different high schools. My senior year was spent and Atlanta Georgia, and I was really looking forward to the HOPE scholarship. I was part of a low income family then. My family decided to move out of Georgia my senior year. Not only did this void my ability to get the HOPE scholarship, but I also didn't have any chance of the Bright Futures Scholarship either. (you have to maintain residency in the state for x amount of years.)

My fiance comes from a low income family too. She busted her butt her senior year to qualify for the Bright Futures Scholarship. She did do poorly in school before her senior year due to family problems. It could be argued that these problems stemmed from a lack of finances. It is the nature of the beast for a person facing financial problems to give into despair and turn to the bottle, or drugs, or any other means of cheap, instant satisfaction. Gambling is one of them.

I don't think the system was designed to "leech off the poor to give to the rich," but our personal experience has been that the Bright Future helped us (or would have in my case.)

Yes, we are both white. Let me ask you this though. How many white kids do you see involved in robberies, murder, and rape at our age? Less than the other minorities.

The first source below shows that there are more crimes committed by whites than blacks. You have to take into account the second source there, that shows the population of Florida broken down by race.

Total Population of Florida in 2005 - 17,789,864

Whites - 694,351 Arrests - 80.4% of the total population or 14,303,051 people
Blacks - 355,843 Arrests - 15.7% of the total population or 2,793,009 people

As you can see, a significantly larger percentage of the total black population was arrested for various crimes in the state of Florida as compared the the percentage of the total white population that was arrested.

Sources:

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FSAC/Cri...r_age_race.asp
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/12000.html

We may be white, but we a) have a larger percentage of the population and b) of that percentage, we have less chance of being involved in a crime.

Just because a family makes less money doesn't mean they are more deserving of the money.

[Tak]

Generally speaking, Shoe, they don't. There are cases out there where you've got the high school student supporting the six other siblings and what not, but the vast majority just do NOT have financial obligations. High school students do not need a car. They can't even have insurance in their own name until they're over 18 in most places, over 21 in some. You're not going to qualify to get a mortgage at 18. If you're attending school full time, you'll be hard pressed to work 40 hours a week to meet minimum financial requirements to get an apartment and utilities in your own name, so on and so forth.

If someone says 'but I need to work to pay off my car!' No, they don't. There are school busses provided if they go to public school. If they go to private school, chances are they have parents that can afford to get them there or afford to buy the car. You don't *need* to go out on the weekends, you do not *need* to have a 360 and video games, or whatever else.

If someone *wants* to work and have those things, that's all well and good. I encourage it, it builds personal responsibility and character in my opinion. While there are exceptions, the majority of people who say they *need* to work through high school should instead be saying 'I need to work through high school to keep all the extra things I want'.

[Merturk_NB]

Tak, there are people out there that need to work though high school to support their families. I was one of them. I have 5 brothers and sisters, and my dad couldn't pull the weight himself. He would never admit it, but he needed me to work to suppliment his income. I paid them "rent" my senior year of high school, which went to food for our entire family.

It is also more common than you think. We lived in an apartment complex in Georgia, and of all the high school aged kids I met, about 50% of them had steady jobs that supplimented their home's income. If you are going to make broad statements like that, support it with personal experience or hard data.

[General Nuke Em]

Merturk, you do realize that your personal experience and the personal experiences of 50% of all the people you met in high school add up to nothing when it comes to making generalizations about the population of the United States? Backing up your statements with personal experience just adds an emotional appeal. It doesn't make your argument any more or less convincing.

Now, in direct contrast to what I just said above, I'm going to talk about my personal experience. But I'm not making an argument with it.

I didn't apply for any scholarships when I applied for college. As spoiled as I may seem, I knew my parents would pay tuition for me, and I would not have to assume any financial responsibilities until at least after I graduate. Futhermore, I knew my parents would assume relatively little financial burden paying for me. Those scholarships would have done a lot more good going to somebody with less family income; I wasn't going to clog up the system with my own application and take public money away from somebody who needs it.

Plus, it was less paperwork for me to do.

[Merturk_NB]

@General Nuke Em

If you notice the thread title, we are talking about Florida, not the entire USA. I do take your point about personal experience as worthy, but I believe my observations show it wasn't an isolated incident in my area.

[Aron_DeTomado]

That's a problem related to parents not making enough, not High schoolers being denied scholarships based on socioeconomic status. If kids in High school actually needed to work to help support their families, then the issue is welfare policy, minimum wage, and unemployment rates (or something of that ilk); it is not a problem with scholarships.

[Merturk_NB]

Welfare policy is screwed up. It probably will always be screwed up. Honest people don't get the money they need, and the dishonest get more than they should because they know how to work the system. As Aron said, we are seeing a symptom surface (more privileged students getting a better education in high school and qualifying for grants meant for poor students who can't keep their grades up because they have to work extra jobs.)

On the other hand, you have the students who just don't care and let their grades fall no matter what. The big question is, what scholarship system would get rid of this problem?

Allow students to fulfill the community service requirement with a part time job?
Allow a lower GPA for the students that worked?
Have school counselors nominate the student for the scholarship?

[Dorkdav]

I'm a poor kid an I got my Bright Futures to help pay for all 5 years of college. So happy endings for me.

Isn't the FAFSA suppose to help the students that need the aid get what they deserve?

[Rambocop]

Two tottaly unrelated stats. Money from the lottery is free money. You can think of it as a donation to the state, in this case going towards a good cause.

The fact that this scholarship requires a student to put in volunteer hours, therefore putting those who need to work to support themselves at a disadvantage is a catch-22; statistically, if you need the money you can't afford the time, and if you have the time you don't need the money (more than someone else).

That is a bit wrong and i can see some class discrimination there but it is tottaly unrelated to the source of the money and, let's face it, nothing new in the academic community.

[Unknown Target]

If you're poor and stupid enough to play the lottery, then you've lost that money long before you put it down for tickets.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

If you're [group to be insulted] and stupid enough to [activity], then you've lost that money long before you put it down for [activity].

hm

[Alex Drake]

Merturk, if I read your post on the previous page correctly, you're stating that because whites are involved in fewer prosecuted crimes with respect to their population than african-americans that they are some how more qualified as a group to receive state aid?

[Aron_DeTomado]

hm

What? Stupid, licentious people don't deserve to remain poor when they squander their money away rather than abuse and leech off the welfare system?

[Merturk_NB]

Merturk, if I read your post on the previous page correctly, you're stating that because whites are involved in fewer prosecuted crimes with respect to their population than african-americans that they are some how more qualified as a group to receive state aid?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. Statistically, whites are more focused on school and have a higher probability to use the money granted to them more effectively.

[Rambocop]

This sounds wrong and is pretty much like saying that if there are more blacks than whites in jail, it means that black people are more likely to commit crimes. Careful there. I don't see you connecting this data to anything other than race.

Also, they don't recieve money in this case, they recieve free education if i am not mistaken. If anyone goes through the trouble to pursue a scholarship, no matter how easy it is to attain, statistically (:P) they are interested in studying, and that's a good thing. You can still fail a course too, so there is no 100% guarantee that the money will be put to good use anyway.

[Alex Drake]

Merturk: Aside from resenting the very nature of your comment, I think its fair to point out that the very same logic was used to justify slavery, Jim Crow laws, school segregation, and essentially every other racial-supremacy argument ever made. Don't pretend like statistics don't have a social element deeply ingrained within them, as if raw numbers rule everything. There are a million sub-debates as to the exact nature of this country's vastly disproportionate numbers of minorities circulating through the judicial/penal system, and at the root of most of that inequality, you'll basically find 3 major:education (lack of), economic stratafication (class-based supremacy), racism (racial supremacy). Very little of it has anything to do with how one "race" handles money, or how worthy someone is to have a chance at a successful future.

Because I'm African American, and statistically more likely to be incarcerated by the age of 21 should I be denied a scholarship on the grounds that I'll probably be in jail before I even get to use half the money? Or should all Europeans be barred from public office because "statistically" they've killed/exploited more human beings than any other group (Wars, genocides, etc). That's ludicrous and just plain wrong, and I'm apalled that anyone on this board would make a blanket claim of that nature.

[Aron_DeTomado]

education (lack of), economic stratafication (class-based supremacy), racism (racial supremacy).

You forgot gang-mentality. I'd wager that is a larger culprit than any of those three can ever hope to be.

[Alex Drake]

"Gang-mentality" often comes from a combination of the first two, with a dash of resource competition.

Exactly how many gangs/gang-members have you ever dealt with on a personal level?

[Atreides]

The lottery is a tax on the poor and stupid. The education thing is the way the government figures sell the new tax generator to the people. I have lived in two states while it wa being debated and voted in and heard the same promises two times (Texas in 1993 and Oklahoma in 2004) Same crap, same broke people coming in and spending money they should use to pay their electric bill on time this month. Many of the poor are simply poor through their lifestyle, they spend money on booze, tobacco and lottery tickets.

Look at a rough part of town, you see payday loan, pawn shops, liquor stores and tobacco bargain stores everywhere (and almost ALL sell lottery tickets)because that is what so many poor people do as opposed to bringing themselves out of their circumstances. Then they complain about what OTHER people did that kept them poor right before they go home and watch cable on their big screen TV (provided the electricity didn't get cut off)

Alex, your level of education is solely in your power, as is how you handle money. Social stratification results mostly due to choice, this is not feudal Europe, so implying that a caste system is in place is silly.

[Merturk_NB]

I never said you should be DENIED the scholarship.

I'm saying that these minorities he speaks of aren't receiving these scholarships because statistically, a higher percentage of them are more focused on the cash register at the local gas station.

[Aron_DeTomado]

So in other words you're saying that 'less minority people are academically inclined, hence, fewer minority people get scholarships' rather than 'minorities should be evaluated for scholarships based on statistical information', correct?