Maybe I'm missing something???
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Maybe I'm missing something???
Last edited by Starfisher; 2nd May 07 at 8:47 AM.
Well, with the slower M10 acceleration and the longer to to get Pershing veterancy, then clearly AWM is no longer a problem.
?!?!?
"Also, I can kill you with my brain."
aka CluelessSmurf
ya i am a little disappointed by the lack of changes to AWM
still, i'll have to wait and see if it really makes a difference
Honestly, I think the only thing that needs to be done to fix it is decrease the duration to 20 or 30 seconds. 45 is just rediculus.
All I hate about AWM is the fact that EVERYBODY GOES ARMOR. Seriously. I played four games since 1.6 came out and EVERY SINGLE ONE WAS ARMOR COMPANY SPAM.
Oh, in one 3v3 there was an airborne guy. A single one.
So no, AWM is not fucking OK. From now on it will be all armor, all the time.
Swooping Hawk: Is there a secret underground cult of British faction haters?
Quercus: Of course there isn't. Nothing secret about it at all.
They should make the sherman upgun on a tank-specific basis, like every other allied tank upgrade (also makes sense because there wasnt really that many 76mm shermans).
Maybe that would syphon some of the munitions out of armored company so they cant use AWM and feild repairs every 2 minuets.
#7
As I said in that other thread, core issues fixed, but the abilities still are as imba as ever. So yeah, really dissapointed as I do not see a AWM change.
Might as well get used to it. There is almost nothing in the 1.6 patch that affected Armor company. Slower pershing vet is nice, but green pershing is plenty good to own everything on the field before tigers come out.Originally Posted by drChengele
PS. I totally disagree with the 200MP for airdrop. Why oh why did they not look at why BT mode reverted that change to a +1min cooldown instead?
#9
late game 200 MP is close to nothing, so it was not really significant.
Actually, I find that manpower is the largest limiting factor late game. Combined with the increased cost to paradrop AT gun I think that it is indeed a significant change.
I don't know anything about battletest mod, but what is so bad about the 200mp cost? It seems like a better idea than increased cooldown because it becomes a tactical decision to use it, rather than something that you just have to remember to do.
Anyway, we're getting off topic here. AWM is beastly now, I agree, with the other overpowered doctrines/companies toned down a bit it now seems more powerful in comparison - but I'm really interested in seeing how a vet3 flak performs against it.
if they go armor, go defensive...88's with support chew up pershings and the allied player can AWM himself to death for all i care
Yeah you build an 88 and he calls a calliope and bombards it from across the map over and over for free while you keep having to replace the crew and repair it.
Airborne is manpower hungry, more so then other two doctrines. Pricy paratroopers combined with pricy AT drops make for manpower shortage. 200MP for supply drop makes it situational rather then consistent.Actually, I find that manpower is the largest limiting factor late game. Combined with the increased cost to paradrop AT gun I think that it is indeed a significant change.
I don't know anything about battletest mod, but what is so bad about the 200mp cost? It seems like a better idea than increased cooldown because it becomes a tactical decision to use it, rather than something that you just have to remember to do.
Anyway, we're getting off topic here. AWM is beastly now, I agree, with the other overpowered doctrines/companies toned down a bit it now seems more powerful in comparison - but I'm really interested in seeing how a vet3 flak performs against it
EDIT: 200mp/3min = -66MP/min. Going from 240sh to 170sh MP/min income late game is very costly.
I'm thinking about how im going to handle calliope's with defensive doc before I play my first 1.6 match...
@ Remedial:
While he's doing this, you can cap everything within the 88's gigantic range, and if he tries to stop you he'll take heavy losses.
@ Virigoth:
I'm aware of that, that's what I meant about making it a decision rather than an automatic thing. Why should an ability always give you a bonus with absolutely no cost or drawback? Things like Zeal and Advanced warning are OK because the benefit is not overpowering, but an ability that is just free resources and weapons for no cost seems a bit much. Also, maybe now people will be using the machine gun and mortar that come with supply drop to save a bit on manpower, instead of letting them sit in the base.
Now airborne should be about on par with infantry company (which is about on par with Defensive/Terror and now possibly Blitz though I can't say for sure). Armor is the only one that needs fixing.
I prefer a MP cost to Supply Drop. Nothin sould be free, resource wise. If the 200MP plays out to be too much, the price tag can be lowered.
S.
I agree that nothing should be free, however in the case of the 200mp, I do beleive that was a bit over the top. 100mp might have been a bit more reasonable, or just a simple extension of the cooldown timer would have brought the supply drop into a more reasonable level of acceptablity.I prefer a MP cost to Supply Drop. Nothin sould be free, resource wise. If the 200MP plays out to be too much, the price tag can be lowered.
I had my strat all planned out in my head vs. armor company until someone mentioned calliope and I had horrible flashbacks and lost control of my bowels.
What would you do as defensive doc to keep a calliope from tearing up your lines? They're pretty elusive in the right hands.
#19
Its not over the top. Just do math.
Mortar + 30cal = 280 + 240 = 520MP
Supply drop gives you the weapons, assume 66 to reman them (3 rifles). =
200 + 66 + 66 = 332 and 100 muni and 50 fuel
It still is a totally sweet deal.
I actually prefer to see Calliopes fielded against me when I'm defensive.
Why? Because a) that means I am another 20 minutes away from Pershings, and b) they eat up popcap; and if you play your cards right, he will spend all that popcap on bombarding your FlaKs. All you need to do is make a FlaK on a great spot and all the Calliope fire in the world will be concentrated on it. Every time this happens, use the drChengele's Original Defensive 5RTM strategy: Reman, Reinforce, Repair, Rinse, Repeat. (You'll need a bunker within MG range from the FlaK and an MP40 Volks squad roaming around.). This way you will spend at most ~80 manpower per bombardment (provided crew is killed, which it isn't always).
Once the second FlaK is operational, he'll have an even harder time - it will effectively dilute his artillery powers.
2nd level of veterancy helps a lot versus calliope rockets, and when you hear the launch, bunkers are your friends.
Right after a barrage, your Grens have free reign over the battlefield for another 105 seconds. Use that time well and don't bunch them up.
Also, try to spam bunkers like there's no tomorrow, and upgrade some of them to medic bunkers.
#21
Anyways, lets stick to AWM xD.
Bottom line :
Any changes made to core units is irrelevant to this ability, it still is too strong. It turns the tide of battle almost every time, and dramatically (moreso on team games).
Well it's 250 munitions, it should be able to turn the tide of battles, albeit I agree the timer is still too long.
Airborne is manpower hungry, more so then other two doctrines. Pricy paratroopers combined with pricy AT drops make for manpower shortage. 200MP for supply drop makes it situational rather then consistent.
EDIT: 200mp/3min = -66MP/min. Going from 240sh to 170sh MP/min income late game is very costly.
Woah, holy shit, so spamming supply drop for the free munis/fuel will cripple your MP income. I wonder if it's simply not meant to be spammed?
If you consider it being a end tier ability for Airborne and compare it to likes of 105mm howie, 88s, Blitz tiger/tiger ace, pershing, calliope.. It does leave a bit to be desired with a 200MP tag.
In the end, go ahead and play some Airborne games. I've already gone through this with airborne in BT mod, and I feel that a 4min cooldown was a far better solution. With 200MP price tag, supply drop got it's teeth kicked in. Use it twice and it's same as losing a sherman's worth in manpower. The 'free' WSC weapons mitigate the cost a bit, but there is only so many MGs and mortars you need in a game.
Also remember that the airdropped AT was also made more expensive which will result in most airborne players going for motorpool AND tankdepot. In a game where 1 unit's worth in manpower can make a difference 200MP is a lot ontop of the other factors.
I'm not talking out of my ass here. I've played a pile of games with supply drop costing 200MP and airdrop gun costing more then in 1.5
Over a 6min duration spending 200mp on an observation post gets you about as much munitions at half the cost on a map with a high point, about double the fuel in the same situation. Observation posts are available long before supply drop and while the heavy weapons are a bonus, they are often not needed at the 6cp+ mark.
Last edited by Demon_Eyes; 1st May 07 at 6:29 PM.
Pondering why I keep playing MMO's.
I think airborne doctrine is now fairly balanced.
But yeah... Calliope against defensive means they didn't go for Pershings. So pwn them with some Panzers, or just mass grenadiers. The grenadier nade is great now.
Mortar + 30cal = 280 + 240 = 520MP
Supply drop gives you the weapons, assume 66 to reman them (3 rifles). =
200 + 66 + 66 = 332 and 100 muni and 50 fuel
It still is a totally sweet deal.
Supply Drop = 200
Mortar Team + HMG = 270 (Cost for fresh rifle squad)
Total = 470
And thats assuming you don't want to keep the rifleman squad.
If you wanted to keep the rifleman squad on the field then the following math applies.
Supply Drop = 200
Rifle Squad = 270
Mortar Team - 3 Rifles
Reinforce x1 = 22
MG Team - 3 Rifles
Reinforce x5 = 22*5 = 110
Total = 532 (532 - 470 = 62)
If you were to use Airborne the numbers change significantly.
W/O keeping the squad = 575
With keeping the squad = 947
Granted that is the total MP useage for the original squads and reinforcing them.
So yes, if you use riflemen, and have them in the base (or near a forward HQ/Halftrack) then it is one great deal. However, if you are dropping in supplies for the airborne to secure a forward area, then no, it would be an increase in the mp cost to do the same, and not a very good tradeoff at all.
#27
@ aloss :
Using airborne? Please, only a dumbass would do that. Thats like using KCH to reman a mortar because its the only unit you have available at the time...... Its plain stupid, I am amazed its not obvious to you. Most people are afraid of even reinforcing airborne. Also, your "increase in MP cost" is the fruit of wanting to have the HMG and Mortar ready at that moment in the front lines... When you build it, you have a production time, and it does not appear in the front lines. And as I show below, its a better deal to use supply drop if dropping at your base or at a forward HQ using normal troops.
Also,your logic is flawed. Its 532, but you also get a riflemen squad.
Mortar + 30cal + riflemen squad = 790MP
So, with supply drop you will get :
Mortar
30 cal
Riflemen squad
50 fuel
100 munitions.
For a grand total of 532 MP.
Just buying the units cost 790 MP, plus the build time.. And you miss out on the fuel and munitions.
Supply drop as it is now is awesome..
@ demon eyes:
1. The observation post can be destroyed fairly easilyOver a 6min duration spending 200mp on an observation post gets you about as much munitions at half the cost on a map with a high point, about double the fuel in the same situation. Observation posts are available long before supply drop and while the heavy weapons are a bonus, they are often not needed at the 6cp+ mark.
2. The enemy can take the point, no one is taking your supply drop.
3. Observation posts only give you one type of resource, the supply drop gives you weapons fuel and ammo.
Half the cost??? Wth? Supply drop, 200 MP. Observation post, 200 MP.
Half the cost of what?
Also, not all points are the same you know...
@Aloss why are you double counting the rifle squad??? I already have rifle squads, so it costs me 200 + 6*22 = 332 for 100 Mun, 50 fuel, a rifle and a mortar.
In general on supply drop: this is now an ability I will use once, maybe twice, per game. I don't need that man mortars and mgs, and I like it keep the MP. It is ... precious to me. :-)
That doesn't mean its a weak ability though. How many abilities really get used more than a couple of times per game?
Also,your logic is flawed. Its 532, but you also get a riflemen squad.
Mortar + 30cal + riflemen squad = 790MP
The supply drop is 200mp, come with the empty MG and Mortar, the riflesquad is 270.. Hense the 470mp total.
Now, as for anyone being an idiot for using the airborne to man the HMG or Mortar on the frontlines, I do believe thats what it was realy intended for, if not, why give it the ability to be dropped anywhere on the map? Whether or not people use it for this reason, which I have seen numerous times, is really up to the player, and can have a significant impact on securing a front area.
Is it always feasable to pull your existing riflesquads back off the lines to your base or nearest reinforce area to man a weap team?@Aloss why are you double counting the rifle squad??? I already have rifle squads, so it costs me 200 + 6*22 = 332 for 100 Mun, 50 fuel, a rifle and a mortar.
#30
Because I might just happen to have a riflemen squad that is not in my base, and I might want that squad to use it......
See seriously wth.
I DO NOT HAVE TO. Why cannot I make that riflemen squad man the wep team at the frontlines. You do not need airborne for that....... (sorry, its just you are ignoring everything we tell you)Is it always fesable to pull your existing riflesquads back off the lines to your base or nearest reinforce area to man a weap team?
The 790 MP is what you get when you build the units instead of using supply drops..The supply drop is 200mp, come with the empty MG and Mortar, the riflesquad is 270.. Hense the 470mp total.
The arithmetic for the supply drop is properly calculated as follows:
Supply Drop: -200 MP
Infantry Squad: -270 MP (6 Riflemen)
Have your rifles occupy one of the weapon units, leaving 3 rifleman.
Reinforce 1 man: -22 MP
Infantry squad now has 4 members in it. Occupy the second weapon unit, leaving 1 rifleman.
Reinforce 5 men: -22x5 MP
Total: (-200) + (-270) + (-22x6) = -602 [MP]
Also, you can not subtract the cost of an existing rifle squad from this bill when you consider that it still required 270 MP to place them on the field. In the end, you pay the same total price.
... for the supply drop plus a rifle squad plus a MG plus a mortar. I don't see where you're going with that.
On the other hand, if you were to make the argument that a free mortar and a free HMG are rarely needed after the first, I think you'd have a point
#33
602 vs 790 (800) MP. Not mentioning the free munitions and fuel, oh and no build times..
And I can drop it wherever I want.. Its still a sweet deal.
Uh.... AWM people....
Except you still should have existing riflesquads on the field, and that riflesquad you built will help out just like any other, so no.Also, you can not subtract the cost of an existing rifle squad from this bill when you consider that it still required 270 MP to place them on the field. In the end, you pay the same total price.
Total cost is 332 manpower.
How to fix AWM spam:
Bring back Calliope barrage cost. Make them spend some muns on barrages, suddenly muntions aren't quite so plentiful.
I personally think armor company needs to go back to how it was orginally.
"Stormtroopers gave me the rank I have today." Omar
I agree, the Calliope was much better balanced in it's 1.4 form.
AWM has always been problematic though, something still needs to change with it. Increased cost, decreased duration, no effect on specialist tanks (calliope, pershing, croc), warmup time, anything like that would help immensely.
Is the calliope really going to be a major issue? Will enough players choose to go for it first before the Pershing? I personally don't see it...pershing at 7 CP is too tasty to worry about getting a calliope.
Late games see both calliopes and pershings. And calliopes are annoying as hell. Nothing like 2 rocket barrages to nuke all your supporting infantry before the pershings head in.
I just finished a 4v4 where 3 of them were armored. 6 pershing and 6 caliopes with AWM are NOT fun. I dont care how many tigers axis has.
OK, I'll rephrase myself:
In a 1v1, I don't see it as an issue, as so few will go Calliope first. In a 4v4, well it may be unbalanced but if you're waiting to find a game that is balanced at both 1v1 and 4v4...you'll wait a loooonnnnggg time!
Calliope is balaned by it's popcap and upkeep. If you get 2 calliopes and one pershing you better have most of the map or no infantry. The upkeep will kill your mp income as well.
AWM needs a duration and price decrease ala BT mod. 200MU for 20s of AWM makes it lot harder to abuse then you'd expect.
Yeah, AWM is still broken. In small games denying munitions may be the best counter. In large games it can be game breaking.
(and yes: IMHO, 200 MP fix for supply drop is a good change).
If you want to flame, buy a flamethrower. It's only 50 munitions.
1. 6cp for an unkillable, non continuous ops level resource bonus and late game tier1 HMG/Mortar around when you start seeing tigers.
2. To take a point the opponent needs to take down the ops (which are actually fairly durable), and decap, if you are dropping the resources on an ops, probably a good idea to protect it. Supply drop can be stolen btw.
3. Six minutes is two supply drops, eg 400mp, in other words it is as cost effective as an ops for munitions, half as effective for fuel on a high point, while an ops continues past the time marker so it can continue to gain cost effectiveness while supply drop retains the same cost/effect at all times. Build an ops on a high FP and high MU point and you got better resource exchange than supply drop.
Last edited by Demon_Eyes; 2nd May 07 at 11:35 AM.
1. Because HMG and mortars are useless at 6 CPs? Obviously they're not, so if you want a HMG or mortar, drop supplies instead. If you use rifles to man, you get the supply drop for 20 manpower.
1. 6cp for an unkillable, non continuous ops level resource bonus and late game tier1 HMG/Mortar around when you start seeing tigers.
2. To take a point the opponent needs to take down the ops (which are actually fairly durable), and decap, if you are dropping the resources on an ops, probably a good idea to protect it. Supply drop can be stolen btw.
3. Six minutes is two supply drops, eg 400mp, in other words it is as cost effective as an ops for munitions, half as effective for fuel on a high point, while an ops continues past the time marker so it can continue to gain cost effectiveness while supply drop retains the same cost/effect at all times. Build an ops on a high FP and high MU point and you got better resource exchange than supply drop.
2. Fairly durable? Only durable enough to not be instantly taken down. If you win a battle around a CP, it stays, if you lose its gone before you can do anything. Since its fixed on the map, its very vulnerable.
3. In some cases, supply drop isn't the best option. If you have 200 manpower to blow, and are reasonably certain you can defend it on a high fuel point, then the +10 fuel outdo a supply drop in 3.5 minutes. Not a bad ROI, you can probably keep it alive that long. Though, you dont get the +100 munitions (ten minutes to beat, for a high muni), and you don't get the "free" heavy weapons. So yes, it is not a no brainer to drop a supply drop instead of setting up an OP, if you don't care about munis, if you have a defensible high point, and if you don't want more HMGs/mortars.
It actually seems like a MUCH better deal to me, now that people are making the obs post argument.
#46
Thanks LTSearchEngine for not making me have to point out the obvious once again..
Anyways, on AWM :
It needs a nerf, it always has. Take in consideration MP blitz for example, almost the same in cost, it is NOT a game turner, but it can save you from sticky situations. The same should be with AWM, AWM should be a ability to save you from total annihalation, not make you become god and derezz the axis player... AWM needs to either have a nerf, or a BIG downside needs to be added. Like crippling your economy, for a long time.
LTSearchEngine:
1. Are HMG/Mortar worth 6cp? No, they are not. If you use riflemen to cap it costs you 332mp total, not 20mp.
2. Durable enough to not be taken down in any short amount of time before AT weapons become available, since they are available at the start of the game.....
3. So 3.5x2=10 minutes?.... it is about 6 minutes to equal ROI. It looks like a good deal, until you look at any other 6cp ability.
That depends . . . it looks quite good indeed compared to Terror's 8CP for a V1.
I quite often go Calliope side first. With so many Axis players trying to use Grenadiers/stormies it gets in some quick easy kills and you just rack up the experience in a hurry and the next thing you know you have the points for the left side of the tree as well.Is the calliope really going to be a major issue? Will enough players choose to go for it first before the Pershing? I personally don't see it...pershing at 7 CP is too tasty to worry about getting a calliope.
On 2vs2 I almost always beat my partner to Pershings if I go Calliopes first just because of all the extra easy Exp kills.
AWM should have its duration lowered, that would fix most the problems with it. 45seconds is way too long, you don't even have to think about timing it properly.
Searaven:
Well that is true but terror is the redheaded stepchild of the doctrines/companies right now...
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