[DC 1.2]Chains of Torment

[Dorkdav]

Chains of Torment, the basic problem is this power with a squad of berzerkers means one squad dies. It happens almost every game I play against Chaos, I see the Sorcerer and the berzerker squad, my squad gets chained, doom bolted, then berserkers chop them to death. One squad dead.

The issue with Chains of Torment is that it’s a cheap, easily accessible power that used right can easily pay for the research and Sorcerer after one use. Then 80 seconds later it can be used again. With the quick damage of berserkers, Chains of Torment deals too much damage to squads, usually resulting in the death of the entire squad.

I propose that the duration of Chains of Torment be lowered from 10 seconds to 7 seconds. Thus reducing time berzerkers can attack a squad with no escape, and make the power less forgiving if the berzerkers aren’t in good position to attack when the power is used.

[Sir_Suckalot]

Yeah, give us another reason to fast tech to t3

[Walter o' dim]

im fine with it so long as you greatly *GREATLY* buff the damage done by the chains themselves.

[Chris]

Yeah, give us another reason to fast tech to t3

If chains got nerfed then your opponent might actually be able to put up a fight in which case you'd be under more pressure. If you're under more pressure and are forced into investing more resources you might not be able to fast tech.

[Affenkot]

exactly, chris

[BeFlat]

Build more squads that they can't chain a squad which is fully reinforced, so you have more than 2 squads firing at the zerkers who want to kill your squad, that will be expensive for the chaos...

[Micro102]

i think doombolt is more of a problem. it does a lot of damage and has a very fast recharge rate

[Chris]

Build more squads that they can't chain a squad which is fully reinforced, so you have more than 2 squads firing at the zerkers who want to kill your squad, that will be expensive for the chaos...

And where exactly are you expected to get the resources for that extra squad?

...

[Dorkdav]

Simple Chris, you invest more in T1 and fall even farther behind in tech.

[MoschBoy]

for all those chaos fanboys out there.... CHAOS TIER 2 IS VIABLE. really. it doesnt suck and is on par with every other races, offers options and good units.

im fine with it so long as you greatly *GREATLY* buff the damage done by the chains themselves.

why? chaos already has multiple morale immune cc squads in tier 2, damn good ranged support and vehiles that do damn fine in support roles. their spells add an additional punch... but they are not necessary to survive.

[SubakuGaara]

they already doubled the recharge time from chains. now you want to nerf it even more. People don't just use chains with zerkers. People use them with csms too and to complement the already pitiful corruption spell. Nerfing its duration affects csms cause csms use it to protect them from high hp nobz and 7 seconds isn't enough time to trim nobz numbers down with just bolters. Nerfing its duration makes corruption even worse because corruption currently can't hit anything without chains being used first and if all 15 seconds of corruption actually connect, the total damage is like 150. chains only holds for 10 seconds, and now you want to make it 7?

I'm not in favor of this nerf especially since there are very simple strategic ways to avoid the full effect of chains such as
1) transports
2) stun grenades
3) instead of building 1 ten man squad, build 2x 5-man squads

and so on.

[SirNick]

Numbers are important here.

They didn't double the recharge time, they increased it by 20 seconds from 60 seconds to 80 seconds. With both Veteran upgrades it's a 64 second recharge, so that's a Chains a minute.

You also conveniently forget that Chaos Space Marines get Frag Grenades too. They actually stun longer than Tac Marine Frags in that CSM frags last 3 seconds apiece and stun the whole squad as compared to SM frags stunning for 2.5 seconds.

Chains also has the element of doing 100 damage. Chains + Doom Bolt = 250 guaranteed damage. Against IG that's almost a guaranteed dead squad, and if they had heavy weapons that's tremendous. Most other races that's over 50% health off just from that combo.

Hell, Doom Bolt takes 120s to recharge, 50% more than Chains, and Chains is a heck of a lot more tactically useful.

Eldar's Entanglement takes 150s to recharge, no decrease in time, and only lasts 5 seconds. This is mitigated by the fact you get multiple Warlocks to prevent abuse from chain casting. Still means that you need to actually think about when you use it since you'll be waiting a long time to use it again.

A drop from 10s to 7s won't be crippling, especially if damage and recharge time remains the same.

[Energizer Bunny]

Chains is a pain in the ass, but seems less of a problem since zerks got delayed a bit. That said I play SM so am probably about at the height of my powers when this strat shows up.

[philgreg]

I used to think this was a problem, but as SM frag grenades get you away safely. But what options do the other races have?

[nichtganz]

Oh bloody hell the last thing chaos needs is a nerf to chains.....

[Hiroshi_Tea]

they could use a nerf to tier three while we're at it

[SubakuGaara]

They didn't double the recharge time, they increased it by 20 seconds from 60 seconds to 80 seconds. With both Veteran upgrades it's a 64 second recharge, so that's a Chains a minute.

I recall chains being a 40 second recharge in the last patch.

And again, the issue with corruption?

[nichtganz]

Chaos has turned into the bloody axis from COH, everyone says they are so good and once they nerf them everyone feels like fucking fools.

[Da_Fish]

I recall chains being a 40 second recharge in the last patch.

The term "40 seconds" was a magical term plucked out of thin air to make the Sorceror look more in need of a nerf and it worked. To be honest it's a reasonable suggestion as Berzerkers can still maul a squad in 5-7 seconds. My view on the change now is much better than it was when I was still blinded with rage due to Chaos bias. It still doesn't mean I want the change to happen!

[bavbav]

it was 60 just to be clear not 40. yes sorc is just too useful, but i dont know, he needs buffed corruption. about chains thats hard, i think id double their research time and reduce their damage, doombolt and corruption should be for damage, but corruption need some buff.

[DarkSavant]

Hand to hand combat is such a joke that a nerf to chains would make chaos tier 2 next to useless.

Yeah, Csm's are ok. Not great, but ok.


Dancing a squad away from a hand to hand unit is laughably easy and really is one of the things in the game that I think is totally broken.

Whenever I field a unit of khorne maines, it almost feels like I am just throwing req right into the fire if my sorc isn't around.

I don't even play chaos as my main race.

Maybe if everyone didn't concentrate on making shooty armies, this wouldn't be such a big deal.

[SubakuGaara]

Second that.

Especially with the orks. No more orks with axes anymore. Now they all carry guns. What is that?

[Spekkio]

Hand to hand combat is such a joke that a nerf to chains would make chaos tier 2 next to useless.

Yeah, Csm's are ok. Not great, but ok.


Dancing a squad away from a hand to hand unit is laughably easy and really is one of the things in the game that I think is totally broken.

Whenever I field a unit of khorne maines, it almost feels like I am just throwing req right into the fire if my sorc isn't around.

I don't even play chaos as my main race.

Maybe if everyone didn't concentrate on making shooty armies, this wouldn't be such a big deal.

Yea, but here's the thing: when you build zerks, you do a whopping right click on your enemy and that's it. Meanwhile, your opponent has to sit there and constantly click around to keep his units alive. If you're playing a pro or expert it doesn't make a difference, but anyone below that is going to have a very tough time managing his eco while you're just mindleslly chasing him around. This results in him floating and you not, so you reach whatever tier first.

[Hirmetrium]

this rework would have to be carefully done. if the damage was removed, it would need to keep its length. If its length is reduced, it needs more damage.

[wogan121]

Why? Because it would still let zerks kill infantry, just that you may have to switch to range to finish them off. Oh no, micro for a chaos player!

[Zallis]

Berserker ranged damage is pitiful...

The problem is it currently guarentees pretty much any targeted squad of the same tier is screwed royally. Nerfing the duration probably wouldn't do that much. It just means that chaos players will keep their berserkers closer, or chain up a squad berserkers are already chasing (assuming that chaos currently does what op says, namely chain, doombolt, then allow berserkers to run up and engage).

It would probably be better to increase it's recharge time, given that berserkers can still deal enough damage in 7 seconds to kill most things (after doombolt and chains damage is factored in of course). And even if the squad does escape, it's usually with very little hp left. Whats to stop you from teleporting the sorc in and using him to attack (since he'll probably use his AoE attack that knocks everyone down) either outright killing the enemy or giving zerkers time to run up and in front of the enemy squad?

[ImmortalChaos]

Zerks have better ranged damage then GM- I used those pistols in many games vs very good players to finish off squads weakened by a CoT/melee.

[SubakuGaara]

Actually, the most imba thing about zerkers is their vehicle damage. A full zerker squad does 80 dps to vehicle med. 80 dps!!!! Compare that to say a specialized AV unit like the oblits which do 100 dps to vehicle med. Ridiculous.

[Hiroshi_Tea]

i don't know why i'm defending chaos here
but...
oblits are not specialized AV
they're anti-all and tier 3
makes sense for a full squad of them to do around 100 DPS
cause they're made to counter everything
in WA, zerks had massive veh bamage
but that's been fixed
A full zerk squad costs way more
than a dedicated AV squaddie
that can dish out 200 DPS
and can be danaced by vehicles
and have to be in melee range

[MoschBoy]

Hand to hand combat is such a joke that a nerf to chains would make chaos tier 2 next to useless.

cc got a major buff in DC, just so ppl may remember how cc was bevore...; and zerkers are a morale immune, damn fast unit which never really suffered the cc problem anyway.
chaos is the 2nd most easy to play race in DC. they have strong units in EVERY tier, can tech damn quick and have no major weaknesses. and still i hear bullshit like " tier 2 is not viable" again and again. its even worse than eldar players complaining their race is weak..... grow up ppl.

[peturabo]

If you nerf this, you have to nerf Chaplain warshout, they are basically the same thing.

[Chris]

100% agreed with Peturabo.

[White_Pointer]

I think both Chains and the Warshout are perfectly fine abilities.

The problem is when they arrive. Chaos and SM in particular (and IG to a certain degree) still tech too damn fast. Abilities like Chains and the Warshout shouldn't be available after 3 minutes. It's utterly ridiculous. On many 1v1 maps there isn't a thing you can do to stop them reaching tier 2 either. And abilities like Chains and the Warshout means the loss of map control in those first few minutes is really moot because they can take it back just as easily.

Fix Chaos and SM tech speed and you've fixed the problem.

White_Pointer

[DarkSavant]

"Yea, but here's the thing: when you build zerks, you do a whopping right click on your enemy and that's it. Meanwhile, your opponent has to sit there and constantly click around to keep his units alive. If you're playing a pro or expert it doesn't make a difference, but anyone below that is going to have a very tough time managing his eco while you're just mindleslly chasing him around. This results in him floating and you not, so you reach whatever tier first."

Yeah. And then you to a whopping 1 click to run away and have one of your other units shoot the crap out of the zerks.

Oh, and if the zerkers change targets (which they WILL after chasing a target long enough in the hope of getting SOME production out of them), you just hit Q with the running unit and they begin unloading on the zerkers again. While your post seems to pretend like this is some type of complex dance, IT'S NOT HARD TO DO.

"cc got a major buff in DC, just so ppl may remember how cc was bevore...; and zerkers are a morale immune, damn fast unit which never really suffered the cc problem anyway.
chaos is the 2nd most easy to play race in DC. they have strong units in EVERY tier, can tech damn quick and have no major weaknesses. and still i hear bullshit like " tier 2 is not viable" again and again. its even worse than eldar players complaining their race is weak..... grow up ppl."

Zerkers are fast? They sure don't seem faster than any other unit in the game... at least when chasing other dancing units.

If zerker can get in close combat with something, yeah, they perform fine. I'm just saying that the close combat mechanism in DC is pretty much broken. You can do allright with it if the guy is afk or having a seizure.

So, you think that without chains chaos tier 2 is viable? At tier 2, chaos is SUPPOSED to specialize a bit in close combat (I mean, their "special" unit are the khorne zerkers and they don't shoot, yo.). But it's like stuffing a square peg in a round hole, so chaos fast techs to tier 3 MOSTLY BECAUSE THEY GET OBLITS. Their best ranged unit.

People here are just having a discussion about chains and balance. If threads like this insult your sensabilities, maybe you need to grow some thicker skin or stop reading them altogether.

[Fixer]

If you nerf this, you have to nerf Chaplain warshout, they are basically the same thing.

Slightly different though.

Demoralising shout has nearly 3 times the cooldown. though it slows the movement of the target it does not stop them from jumping. They can edge away from combat.

Demo shout does not damage the target, also there's no two squads of beserkers running in at high speed to instakill the target.

[DarkSavant]

I believe you can jump out of chains as well... or get into a transport and scoot away.

Gayknights/Chappy kills units pretty fast as well.

[Chris]

I think both Chains and the Warshout are perfectly fine abilities.

Chains/demo shout if used in the right situation pretty much guarantee a dead or heavily crippled squad and/or hero. If neither player has the advantage then that is more than enough to swing the game in their favour, cement an existing advantage or possibly create a comeback. Unless you're into late tier 2 or tier 3+ recovering from such a loss in such a short space of time is gamebreaking.

I believe you can jump out of chains as well... or get into a transport and scoot away.

Correct.

[Spekkio]

Shout is terrible. You can't move AND you're broken. Great. I think it should only have one effect or the other...since it's called "demoralizing shout," that effect should be just insta-breaking a squad. No need to make the squad immobile for 15 seconds (50% longer than chains). They're as good as dead in that time.

No one but noobs is dumb enough to use these abilities on jump troops. With shout, you don't have zerks coming at you, but you do have GK PI + tac HBs that tear you up just as fast.

Chains didn't get enough of a cooldown nerf. It should be 120, maybe even 150, without any commander veteran ugrades.

[Compeador]

Shout's okay. Its casting time leads it to some chasing problems, the chaplain's cost and build time and the ability's recharge time is in line with the power of the ability. Only races that really has a problem with the morale thing is eldar, as they have no morale immunity until teir 4 and rally at some ungodly high number. 150? 250?



Chains is just.... pain. What really pisses me off is the chaos player who will harrass with 1 rap while going fast teir 2. Then when that becomes countered, jump it out and sorc + chains + 1 squad of zerks comes to back it up. Maybe a defiler, but immediately after the sorc is built, teir 3 is clicked. And the time and resources needed to counter such relatively cheap units roots the opponent in teir 2 while oblits and psm are cooking. THAT is the big picture of this problem, chains itself is just a detail.


Oh and corruption is rather good. have you seen its morale damge? Its recharge time? Its wide AoE? It's perfect for making low-hp units like guardsmen, eldar, or tau move from a wall of death. Chaos asking for buffs is like a fat kid asking for candy. You just don't need it.

[BadLlama]

While were on it lets nerf Demo shout + Smite as well because you now... having a CSM squad loose morale and move 90% slower plus instantly take 240-320 dmg from smite ( only a 60 second cool down without upgrades may I add) and then beaten to death by GK in a matter of seconds or just cating PI on them = one dead CSM squad instantly. So whats your point with Chains + torment? Atleast your squad can fight back.

[Chris]

So whats your point with Chains + torment? Atleast your squad can fight back

Which isn't much use if it's ranged units vs berzerkers.

[mlai]

Switch Corruption with Chains of Torment, and then buff Corruption a bit. Problem solved with Sorceror.

Shout is worse than Chains. It guarantees a dead squad better than Chains.

[BadLlama]

Which isn't much use if it's ranged units vs berzerkers.

Or how about melee units slowed by demo shout, snare trap, or chains as well and then shot to death in a very fast time? Your argument makes no sense your just upset that your range infantry squad was able to be killed.

[SubakuGaara]

Chains is fine. Jump away if you can, limit squad sizes, use transports. The easiest thing is to limit squad sizes. Rather than 1-10-man squad, go with 2 five man squads.
Some races have spells like snares and shout and frags to counter ch ains. SOme races have teleports and cheap transports. I don't see the issue.

[White_Pointer]

Demo shout does not damage the target, also there's no two squads of beserkers running in at high speed to instakill the target.

Doesn't directly damage the target...no...but it does insta-break them, which is probably just as bad. And the PI or Smite coming at you after they are slowed down definitely will damage the target.

Chains/demo shout if used in the right situation pretty much guarantee a dead or heavily crippled squad and/or hero. If neither player has the advantage then that is more than enough to swing the game in their favour, cement an existing advantage or possibly create a comeback.

That's the point though, that's exactly what those two abilities are for! The problem is, because of how fast Chaos and SM tech and hit tier 2 (and subsequently hit tier 3), cementing an advantage or creating a comeback with these abilities is ridiculously easy.

but immediately after the sorc is built, teir 3 is clicked.

That's exactly the problem I pointed out. Chaos and SM tech Too. Damn. Fast. It also doesn't take SM very long to click tier 3 once the chappy is out.

White_Pointer

[mlai]

A lot of the races need the multi-part armor/accuracy/veteran upgrades back. I don't know why orkz are the only ones who must still get upgrades I and II, while other races get bargain packages (looks at SM/Chaos).

[Draich]

Switch Corruption with Chains of Torment, and then buff Corruption a bit. Problem solved with Sorceror.

That or just a 7-second-Chains.

Some Chaos players said something like "load your stuff in a transporter and scoot away" while whining that Zerks don't get into close combat. Use a Rhino and get your Zerks into cc.
The problem with "scooting away" is that CSM outteches most races as Compeador pointed out. If I don't play better than the CSM and join the techrace the complete right-click-whopper unloads on you from the beginning of T2. ATM the Sorc is a such powerful nobrainer that you know that your CSM opponent is a newbie if the Sorc doesn't pop up after four minutes... :/

[wogan121]

The chaplains shout should permantly reduce moral for 15 seconds or so. Chains may need a rework or that 7 second nerf.

[Spekkio]

Compeador,

Yea, shout's recharge time is properly in-line and all, but the fact remains that your squad is a sitting duck for 15! seconds upon its use because it is broken. So not only is it taken out of action due to being broken, it can't run away. Add Smite or PI on top of this backed with HB tacs, and you have a real deadly combination. Tau doesn't have any rallying abilities, either. Not only that, but FWs get no morale boosts whatsoever until t3.5 when the ethereal is built. Shas'uis afford no squad bonuses. All races except SM rally at 150 morale. In 1.1, Tau and Crons rallied at 50, but that got nerfed.

Subaku,

There is a problem with your suggestions: 1. not all troops are jump troops. 2. Good players aren't going to use chains on jump troops. That's just silly. 3. Sorceror with chains and zerks come out significantly earlier than vehicles, so using a transport to hide the squad away isn't an option more often than not and 4. even if it is an option, it means the player has to retreat, in which case you go unharassed and can continue your insane teching speed to t3.

Chains needs a cooldown nerf to whatever shout's cooldown is, and shout needs to take away the 15 sec slow speed.

[Chris]

That's the point though, that's exactly what those two abilities are for!

In my opinion that is horribly flawed design. Players should not be rewarded with such a huge advantage when using the ability is so simple.