The Panzer Elite Examination

[say1988]

they also never ever mentioned nor shown it ingame (of course like i already stated this could be due to waiting til the few weeks prior to the release [which will most certainly be in autumn] that they let the big hammer fall and show screenies/movies of this tank [but from my personal pov i think it would be very unlikely as such a tank would be a way better 'marketing weapon' as the Jagdpanther which we already saw several times and which would lead to the point i already stated that the Tiger II did NOT make it into the final product as every dev team would try to show off as many cool features/goodies/units as possible and especially those 'cool' ones as it would be like i already said a way better marketing for their product

My opnion is the exact opposite of that. THey will withold the biggest and best goodies until right before the release. Show off the King Tiger now, and people will be bored with it by release. Or they could want to release it at a different strategic time, such as a major event.....

[ShrubMiK]

Hmm...yes I think you two have probably hit the nail on the head there.

[Jagdtiger00]

any better screenshots of the jagdpanther hidden in this thread?

[retroholyfire]

The heaviest tank to every see production was the Jagdtiger weighing in at 71.7 tons.

Actually the heaviest tank was the Maus weighing 188 tonnes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_VIII_Maus

[mr.powell]

Actually the heaviest tank was the Maus weighing 188 tonnes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_VIII_Maus

Yep just that the tank never had a functional turret nor was stable enough as it was way to heavy for its own engine and its tracks had some serious problems to even bring the tank into motion as the stress due to the extreme weight was way to high and the engine was way too underpowered for its heavy weight as well as the T28 Super Heavy Tank just with the difference that the T28 was a nearly 100 ton fully functional super heavy tank whereas the Maus had some serious problems .

[nichtganz]

^

Powell hit it on the head. Not only the that but they never reached production (as they were purely prototypes).

[mr.powell]

^

Powell hit it on the head. Not only the that but they never reached production (as they were purely prototypes).

Yep just with the difference that the T28 has been built 3 prototypes and 2 fully operational versions that could dash out some serious beating whereas the Maus prototypes never really functioned as they broke down constantly (were to unreliable so i'd say the heaviest [100t @300mm armor]
and also in firepower extremely powerful [T5E1 105mm HVAP cannon] ever build tank in the WWII timeframe which even functioned was not the KT nor JT but the T28 just with the difference that it (unfortunately) never saw combat whereas the KT and JT saw combat though the JT did not saw a lot of it).

But apart from that you are right nichtganz as no one of those two tank versions ever reached full scale production .

If anyone is interested in seeing that nearly 100 ton monster just go to the patton museum where one of this tanks is still being showed .

[nichtganz]

Speaking of prototypes, The Kügelblitz reached production with six models, four production models, and two functional prototypes. It was quite unfortunate the factory was overrun, i wouldve really like to see them in action. It's hard as hell to find a real picture of them.

[Sarcasm]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...en-US:official

[nichtganz]

That's a plastic model, ive seen that a million times. Ive only seen two real photos and they were on a SWF file that i couldnt grab.

[Tiger_AceAJB]

CANT WAIT FOR OF


do you edit your original PE and BR posts

[Akranadas]

I'm awaiting new information

[nichtganz]

In any case Buggo might be as well. Im sure if she had something postable she would post it, however she is part of Relic and it's up to the Company what gets released.

[retroholyfire]

Well I never said the Maus was a working tank. Just the heaviest.

[HERO]

Despite the fact that a lot of this thread is historical accuracy vs gameplay.. I finally got through all 28-pages.

I must say, I'm quite looking forward to the OF Expansion; especially the new Axis Panzer Elite faction. I'll probably hop on them a lot during the beta and come up with Strat Guides just like I did with Axis in CoH Beta.

I'm really looking forward to the Luftwaffe and Scorched Earth Doctrines especially.

In the perspective of game design, I would of chosen the Stuka tankbuster over the He-129, not only because it was used more during the war, but it was just a more solid plane in all regards. But other than that, I don't see too many flaws with the design structure of this particular structure. If all goes well, we might even see a balanced King Tiger! But if the price increases more than 1200 with a pop limit to 1, I doubt us 1v1 players will see much of it in competitive gameplay. Waiting for say.. a 1500 dollar solo unit is a lot to bargain for.

As for the Doctrine design, I'm more concerned about balance more than anything else. The Tank Hunter Doctrine looks like a complete trump to the Allied (USA) Armored Tree.. so automatically we have some problems. Guess no one's going to go Armor vs Panzer Elite in a 1v1. This also works on another dimension of balance -- if the Panzer Elite has most of the elite tanks in the Tank Hunters tree, I wonder how vanilla Panzer Elite will play. In my guess, they'll probably have upgun Panzer IVs and Panther Tanks as well as having non-doctrine specific JagdpanzerIVs or the like.

Another concern I have is the Sorched Earth Doctrine.. it just doesn't sound powerful enough compared to the other options available. I know there's a serious gap in the information we have about this particular doctrine, but if its anything like the Defensive Doctrine we have now, I doubt it'll be solid enough to take on today's more effective strategies. We'll just have to see though.

And what about the MG-42 Heavy Machine Gun? Will the Panzer Elite have this weapon? Seeing how the MG42 is the single most important unit to any Axis player's game, it would be horrible awkward, and down-right wrong if the PE don't have it.

[Sarcasm]

The PE could just use the MG34 as their HMG if you really don't want to duplicate units.

As for doctrine commenting...I can't possibly see how you can call any doctrine under or overpowered as we know nothing whatsoever about how they are set up. The King Tiger will probably cost 6 CPs or more so it would take forever to get anyway.

Pretty much every single doctrine will likely be rebalanced for compatibility with OF. Currently, the doctrine system is broken anyways with half of them being useless, and to throw six more doctrines into that situation could get ugly without some balance work. Plus, Much of the balance in Dawn of War was changed for the existing races in preparation for the expansion packs (even if the end result is still a bit skewed.)

[Akranadas]

And what about the MG-42 Heavy Machine Gun? Will the Panzer Elite have this weapon? Seeing how the MG42 is the single most important unit to any Axis player's game, it would be horrible awkward, and down-right wrong if the PE don't have it.

I'm sure the PE will have a Machine Gun of some sorts in Opposing Fronts. It might not be the MG-42, but it could be anther; they need one to make it fair in my opinion.

[HERO]

The PE could just use the MG34 as their HMG if you really don't want to duplicate units.

The MG-34 can't surpress like the MG-42. Rifleman squads will have a field day w/o the presence of the MG-42. The British, not so much because they dont have the mobility and firepower like the Americans.

As for doctrine commenting...I can't possibly see how you can call any doctrine under or overpowered as we know nothing whatsoever about how they are set up. The King Tiger will probably cost 6 CPs or more so it would take forever to get anyway.

I have a sixth sense of these things I guess. And the King Tiger will be on par with the Tiger and Tiger Ace right now (9 CPs).

[Sarcasm]

Just because the 34 didn't suppress well in real life doesn't mean it can't in game. You can make it more like the .30 cal, where it doesn't do a ton of suppression but does lots of damage.

[scales]

I have a feeling the British in COH will be what the IG are in DC.
Shudders...hope it doesn't come true.

[K4G4I]

IG ? DC ?

[Akranadas]

IG = Imperial Guard, DC = Dark Crusade.

Can we stick to the topic please, this is about the Panzer Elite; there is a British Thread here - The British Breakdown

[sporty]

Why do you think the MG34 couldn't lay down some serious suppressive fire? Depending on how much you value your life, everything sending some projectiles your way can suppress

I hope the Panzer Elite has a different approach to support weapons than the Americans/Standard Wehrmacht. Weaker but mounted, e.g. Would certainly be interesting.

[HERO]

Just because the 34 didn't suppress well in real life doesn't mean it can't in game. You can make it more like the .30 cal, where it doesn't do a ton of suppression but does lots of damage.

Obviously you don't understand why suppression is much more important than damage or accuracy when facing advancing Rifleman.

[Akranadas]

We haven't even seen the Panzer Elites Infantry beyond the Fallschirmjäger, so we don't know what they will have or what weapons will appear. To start talking about balance is borderline silly. Obviously the Panzer Elite will have a way to combat infantry in some form of a machine gun, but we need to wait and what it is and test it out for ourselves before we start jumping to conclusions on non existing evidence.

[HERO]

Maybe not the MG in particular, but some method of early game suppression that's also viable later game. That's the key

[Akranadas]

Again, who's to say they don't have a method of early game suppression that's also viable late game?

We just don't have enough information at this point to determine such a thing.

[nichtganz]

First off all the MG34 should supress nearly as well as the MG42. If anything they should make the MG-34 a killing weapon, similar to the .30 cal.

[Sturmhaubitze]

"Panzer Elite and British Forces - The Usual Pattern of Argument"

Step #1: Relic announces only a limited number of the total units that Opposing Forces will have, so that they can keep some surprises for later.
Step #2: Community fixates on one of the announced units, proclaiming that one side or the other will be overpowered due to their inclusion.
Step #3: Community fixates on units that were not announced, proclaiming that one side or the other will be underpowered due to their absence.
Step #4: Relic releases beta, all is revealed. Game comes out, sky does not fall, everything is good, life continues as normal, I am $40-60 poorer but happier for it.

[nichtganz]

^

After game is balanced, Inexpeirinced players cause the game to get nerfed into oblivion.

[mr.powell]

"Panzer Elite and British Forces - The Usual Pattern of Argument"

Step #1: Relic announces only a limited number of the total units that Opposing Forces will have, so that they can keep some surprises for later.
Step #2: Community fixates on one of the announced units, proclaiming that one side or the other will be overpowered due to their inclusion.
Step #3: Community fixates on units that were not announced, proclaiming that one side or the other will be underpowered due to their absence.
Step #4: Relic releases beta, all is revealed. Game comes out, sky does not fall, everything is good, life continues as normal, I am $40-60 poorer but happier for it.

IoI

Well its always the same ain't it Sturmhaubitze (and that in nearly every game) ...

Trust me its the same in the SupCom forums as there is also announced the new expansion pack Forged Alliance which will most certainly rock from the first trailer i saw.

Life will go on like always.

sorry for off-topic but did anyone ever noticed that THQ is maybe currently the best publisher in RTS games (which are from my point of view the Kings class in PC gaming as it were in the past unlike those MMOs or just MP based games!) ... i mean they have Relic (CoH => GotY 2006) under contract as well as GPG (SupCom my most fav. RTS and also a hot contender to this years GotY2007!) ... well it seems they do make their homework .

[say1988]

In the perspective of game design, I would of chosen the Stuka tankbuster over the He-129, not only because it was used more during the war, but it was just a more solid plane in all regards.

The Stuka was an obsolete piece of garbage in 1941, see its failures during the Battle of Britain (if there were decent aircraft opposing it (as in teh Luftwaffe didn't shoot down anything that tried to fly) in '39 and '40 it would have been murdered. It was only used over Russia because early on there was nothing to try and shoot it down, and later the Germans were using everything they had. The Hs 129 was far superior, and I believe some were used over Normandy, unlike Stukas.

[adikt420]

All I have to say is Tiger 2 better fuckin own face against allied vehicles and tanks.

I read in a book how 5 KT were on the Eastern Front, and stopped and entire Russian offensive. Consisting of hundreds of infantry and tanks. He said they just sat there and watch the KT roll slowly ahead pounding the shit out of everything, and everything that was hitting them was just bouncing off literally.... AT guns, AT rifle guns, Tank rounds, everything.

To make it different than Tiger 1, I hope they make it slower, but alot more armor/hp, and huge range. It's a tank hunter, it should be able to hunt tanks from a distance, not drive up to them HEY YOU SEE US OVER HERE KOOL STICK AND DIVE BOMB AT GUNS ON TOP OF US.

BTW the Stuka was not "garbage" it was a very awesome sophisticated plane for it's time. It was the insporation for most modern day fighter bombers back then. It was the first plane to have auto pilot. When the Stuka dove to bomb targets, the pilots would pass out because they didn't have G suits back then. Once the computer recognized a certain altitude, it would take over and pull the plane out of a dive so the pilot and plane weren't wasted. It may have had its drawback of being a really slow plane, but it wasn't ment to combat actual fighter planes. It was a very accurate plane, and it's 1 bomb would fuck up anything the allies had. Not to mention the air raid siren Hitler had installed on them was a total ingenious move. It scared the shit out of people so bad, that even AA gun pilots would abandon their posts and not even shoot at them. So I suggest you go research what your taking about before you just blaintently diss it, because a stuka was a brilliant bomber.

[Thadius]

In reality it should decimate everything the allies have without a massive assault from medium tanks or a bunch of Pershings. But in OF, be ready for people taking out King Tigers with Tetrarch tanks, you know it will happen.

[adikt420]

Probably... people will bitch it's an overpowered tank. Then they will have Tetrachs turned into the British m10, 2 of them wtf owning anything that comes at them. Then you can air drop them into the axis base, and it's gg Axis suck allies win because were noobs and always get our way.

[Luger]

I agree, the King Tiger should surpass all the other tanks on the battlefield. When I think about lining up two Tiger I's with the Tiger II in the middle in a team assault... it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

[bean_22]

Well if it was reality the King Tiger probably wouldn't reach to the front or its overweight turret would break making it a heavily armoured stug. Soon afterwards it would run out of fuel and/or be bombed by allied or soviet aircraft.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Wernt the first two KTs deployed in battle destroyed by a single t34? It's hardly a superweapon.

[KINGFISHER]

For the purposes of the game it should function moreso how it was intended to function, as a reliable but small production super-unit.

If we followed the logic of the fault armor on the King Tigers, we would have to have suddenly jaming problems on certain rifles and the American shermans would catch fire easily and get destroyed due to them running on gasoline (they were always flaming wrecks and would cook the crews alive).

[Sturmhaubitze]

( Shermans didn't turn into burning wrecks because of what engine fuel they used, this is a myth. The number one cause for tanks to catch fire is their ammunition cooking off, due to the whitehot splinters being sent inward by their tank's armour being violently cracked open from penetration. German tanks tried to avoid this by having protected ammunition lockers, and US tanks had a wet-stowage system for their shells. Shermans ceased to be anymore prone than German tanks to cook-offs after D-Day. )

The Tiger II "Koenigstiger" was meant to provide the killing and staying power of numerous tanks in just one vehicle, in order to circumvent the growing manpower shortages and industrial woes of the German military. Even if you ignore the technical failures it still was not unstoppable. It's flank and rear armour was no better than a Tiger I, so any tank that could kill a Tiger I from the sides or rear (which was pretty much anything in the Soviet tank and assault gun arsenal, barring the light tanks) could just as easily kill a Tiger II. It's armour was only "unbeatable" (And this is debatable) on the front hull and turret mantlet.

Given how easy it is to flank in CoH with how short the sight and weapon ranges are, I don't see how a reasonably "realistic" implementation of the Tiger II would be overpowered. For the cost of a lone Tiger II, I imagine an opposing Allied player could have at least two if not three Shermans, and one or two will get around to the rear and get a few shots in. The US side will not need some new "wonder weapon" to deal with this new threat.

[nichtganz]

ISU-152's destroyed the first KTII.

[Caesar]

Wiki says it was a T-34/85.

And people, please, please research things before you start speaking. Bean 22, the King Tiger wasn't some kind of behemoth that was lucky if it moved at all. It was a formidible tank on the defensive that, like the Panther before it, was rushed onto the battlefield before all the kinks could be worked out. Later models of the Tiger I, Tiger II, and Panther were all fairly reliable--especially the Panther. The Tiger II's turret also had a much faster traverse speed than the Tiger I. The Tiger I had this awful hydraulic system.

[adikt420]

No, the first KT2 deployed was in like 1943 way before the IS2 came out. It held off an entire advance by itself, just because it wtf pwned shit at long distances, and it was hard to kill it when it was in the city the Russians were trying to take. I think it killed like 300 something tanks in a month. Whoever talks about the "godly IS2 tank" is usually wrong, because theres recorded evidance of a KT2 knocking one out in ranges of 2,000m which is pretty damn far.

Rofl. I wouldnt believe anything you hear about what Russia did in WW2 if it's from the Russians. There stories and facts are pretty much all effected by emotion and their zealous devotion to Communism. I would say about 80% of what you hear comming from the Russians about ww2 is propaganda, or just made up bs. A t34 would in no way what so ever be able to stand up to a KT. Unless it was point blank behind it, below it, or ontop of it, and was shooting shells in the same exact spot over and over.

The only time I could see a t85 take on a KT2 would be towards the end of the war when Germany was seriously low on rescources and their steel was suffering, so the quality started to get reduced to make up for more numbers. In that case, Russian tanks still had a hard time blowing up Tigers, the armor usually just cracked, and that was about it. Even then the tank was still operational. The only drawback of a KT2 was it's engine. They used the same engine that they used on Pz4's I think, which would slow it down considerably considering the big differences in the weight of the two.

"The Tiger II performed very well against Allied tanks being able to kill the M4 Sherman, M26 Pershing and IS-2 at respectively 2500m, 1800m and 1200m. The Tiger II was widely photographed due to its large size and propaganda value".

-A t34, is better than a Sherman but weaker than a Pershing. So I would say K2 would own the shit out of it hands down.

[Caesar]

The first use of the Tiger II in combat was in Normandy on 18 July, 1944 with the 503rd Heavy Panzer Battalion (schwere Panzerabteilung 503). It was first used on the Eastern Front on 12 August, 1944 with schwere PzAbt 501 in the fighting at the Soviets' Baranov bridgehead over the Vistula River. In this action, a single Soviet T-34/85 under the command of Guards Lieutenant Os'kin from the 53rd Guards Tank Brigade knocked out three Tiger IIs by firing at their sides from an ambush position.

Taken from Wikipedia's King Tiger entry.

[adikt420]

I seriously doubt that's true. That contradicts everything else recorded about them. Just because Wikipedia says that dosn't mean it happened. There's lots of errors on that site. The IS2 was developed EXCLUSIVLY to counter KT2, and it hardly even did that so.

German tanks wouldve been able to knock that out pretty fast considering that Russian tanks didn't have radios. The Germans couldve spotted it, radiod it and knocked it out. I doubt they would just keep rolling tanks up to in a single file line for them all to get owned.

[Caesar]

The IS2 and Tiger II were both first deployed in the East during the same battle. I doubt the IS2 was a counter to the King Tiger. In fact, the IS2 was meant to be used in the infantry support role rather than as a tank destroyer.

[Thadius]

But the was the IS2 a tank hunter? Or was it designed to be a heavy tank like the KV1 -2?

[Caesar]

It was an evolution of the KV series of tanks. General Vorishilov fell out of political favor and so the tanks were renamed with the "IS" or "Iosef Stalin" designation.

[Sturmhaubitze]

The IS-2's main gun was developed mainly for firing HE rounds. The 85mm and 100mm were designed for an anti-tank role, at which they excelled. The 152mm still made a mess of anything smaller than a Tiger II, though it's two-part ammunition made reloading a really slow affair.
The IS-2 was indeed a heavy tank (though some debate whether it was more of a medium tank with better armour and an oversized gun) that was take the place of the KV series.

Rofl. I wouldnt believe anything you hear about what Russia did in WW2 if it's from the Russians. There stories and facts are pretty much all effected by emotion and their zealous devotion to Communism. I would say about 80% of what you hear comming from the Russians about ww2 is propaganda, or just made up bs.

Everyone used propaganda, even the Germans. If you watched German "news" during the war, you'd think the Battle of Kursk was a resounding victory.

A t34 would in no way what so ever be able to stand up to a KT. Unless it was point blank behind it, below it, or ontop of it, and was shooting shells in the same exact spot over and over.

"Stand up to"? Tank fights were not about sitting out in the open and taking turns firing at each other. Getting an advantageous position and firing the first shot was key. The 85mm was an excellent gun and more than capable of penetrating a Tiger I E's side (could also penetrate a Tiger I E's front, and didn't need to be at short range to do it), and as I said earlier, the Tiger II's side armour was comparable to a Tiger I E's. A T34/85 killing a Tiger II from the side with one shot was well within reality.

The only time I could see a t85 take on a KT2 would be towards the end of the war when Germany was seriously low on rescources and their steel was suffering, so the quality started to get reduced to make up for more numbers. In that case, Russian tanks still had a hard time blowing up Tigers, the armor usually just cracked, and that was about it.

Here's an excerpt about spalling from wikipedia:
"In antitank warfare, spalling through mechanical stress is an intended effect of high explosive squash head (HESH) anti-tank shells and of many other munitions which may not be powerful enough to pierce the armor of a target. The relatively soft warhead (containing or made of plastic explosive) flattens against the armor plating on tanks and other armored fighting vehicles and explodes, creating a shock wave that travels through the armor and breaks the softer metal on the inside. The resulting spall is dangerous to crew and equipment, and may result in a partial or complete kill of a vehicle. Many AFVs are equipped with spall liners inside their armour for protection."

The armour didn't just crack. If it cracked under the punishment of a 152mm shell, the effects on the crew and equipment could result in a kill, despite the shell never having penetrated.

German tanks wouldve been able to knock that out pretty fast considering that Russian tanks didn't have radios.

By the time the T34/85s started filtering into tank battalions, radio production was stepped up to meet the demand. The days of tank battalions being led by visual signals was near an end. Also all the lend-lease tanks they received from British, Commonwealth and US factories were equipped with radios from the very beginning of the war.

EDIT: Replace all instances of 152mm with 122mm, a silly mistake on my part. The 152mm is an entirely different gun with poorer AT ability, but meant for direct-fire anti-bunker/infantry usage.

[Caesar]

Just to add a bit to Sturm's post: even though the D25-T 122 mm gun had poor penetration for a gun of its size, it was still able to knock out basically every tank of the war at long ranges. Keep in mind that a 122mm shell is going to wreck anything it touches regardless of whether it penetrated the armor or not. During Kursk for instance, SU-122s were known to have completely ripped the turret off of Tiger tanks. The turret wasn't penetrated, but it didn't even matter because of the sheer force of the shell hitting it.