The Panzer Elite Examination

[adikt420]

No one is saying it's totally unstoppable. Planes could take it out, nothing else would kill it except maybe Russian tanks which are unviable considering were not talking about Russia. Most of the facts you are looking up are representing it like they destroyed a KT. In most cases it ran out of fuel, broke down, or they just crippled it. It basically is an unstoppable fortress if it had the necessary fuel and mechanics. With the speed of a Pz4 and a faster turning turret than a Tiger 1, better 8.8cm gun than a Tiger 1. I would say that's pretty un-stoppable.

Maybe not if your thinking that 1 KT rolled into the middle of an allied army which never happened.....

Remember that thing called Battle of the Buldge. Where the allies got steamrolled and almost lost Europe...Yah that was because of KT's. The only reason it was stopped was because of gas. Not because the allies could take them down like they were nothing. The only time the allies started to push their tanks back is when the weather cleared and PLANES came and started targeting tanks again.

[ShrubMiK]

Not specifically KT related, and not even saying a lot about quality of engineering...but...I always particualrly liked the story of the German tank divisions put out of action by mice.

IIRC it was during the latter phases of the Germn assault on Stalingrad, tanks weren't particualrly useful in the urban fighting and there weren't enough fresh infantry, so many tanks were put into storage somewhere in the rear areas and the crewman pressed into action as extra infantry.

This was getting into the severest part of the winter, and mice and other small animals found the stored tanks a very cosy environment to shelter in. Which was nice for the animals, but not so nice for the tanks as they chewed through anything remotely chewable, including electrical cables and perhaps hydraulics.

This would all have been fairly easily fixable of course....except that when the Russians broke through on the flanks and rapid action was required to stop them surrounding the German forces in and around Stalingrad itself, there was no time for maintenance, and all of these tanks had to be abandoned.

I'm not absolutely certain it's a true story, but if it isn't it's such a good story it deserves to be

So back on topic (yes I know I already said this earlier in the thread....sssshhh! )...KT should be powerful in the game, at least equivalent to Tiger Ace and probably even better...but not either a too-cheap I-win button, or a balanced but too-expensive unit that seldom gets built until the game is already won. It will be interesting to see how Relic approach this. I'm interested in hearing any ideas on how this juggling act will be managed...although obviously all we will be doing is speculating, we'll have to wait to find out the truth.

adikt...sorry to butt in and be confrontational again just when it was all getting nice and fluffy round here...I suggest you go and read up on the history of the Battle of the Bulge.

Specifically what happened to Peiper's group, which was supposed to be the primary deep-penetrating finger of the entire assalt and had most of the elite units...including (I believe) all of the KTs.

And then maybe you can explain how that failed so utterly, long before the German advance reached its ultimate limit, and long before the skies cleared and Allied airpower really came into play.

[Karius]

To cut a long story short, most German equipment was over-designed, stretching the limits of materials and engineering at a time. On the other hand, Allied equipment was more simplified -and quite inferior on a one to one basis-. However, sheer numbers, attrition as well as air supremacy carried the day.

[Sturmhaubitze]

The Sdkfz 250 had an 8cm Gr34 mortar firing from it in one section of the video. Either the SdKfz 250 gains the main weapon of whatever squad is transported (likely, considering past videos of a squad shooting out of it with all their weapons), or it can be upgraded to have a permanent weapon team inside. Either way, SdKfz 250's with a mortar were designated as SdKfz 250/7.

The armoured car killed near the beginning is indeed the SdKfz 223, which was the radio variant assigned to every patrol (One 223, two 222s for each patrol). It was only armed with a single MG, rather than the 20mm cannon and MG the 222 had. There was also a 221 variant that had a 28mm heavy anti-tank rifle (but no radio frame, obviously).

At the introduction of the Jagdpanther, there's a Fallschirmjäger firing an MG42. A light machine-gun was standard equipment for every squad, so it's quite possible the squad can have one as an upgrade. Also possible that squad picked it up off the ground. Can't tell for sure at this point.

[Dasfubar]

If you go to the new OF website you will see a german paratrooper with a FG42, so I think it's probably safe to say they'll be equiped or able to upgrade to them.

[Akranadas]

Whether or not the Tiger 2 was a good or bad tank doesn't affect how it is in Opposing Fronts. I mean we have Pershings playing as a Main battle tank and Shermans duel with Tigers. I think it's save to say the Tiger 2 won't be anything like it's real life counter part in terms of technical aspects.

[Sturmhaubitze]

While that art could just be for promotional purposes, and may not be accurate, I think it's a safe bet that Fallschirmjäger will indeed get FG42s. The beta isn't far away, so something like that would've long since been locked down.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

much of the engineering in wartime was actually to simplify earlier designs for ease of production. for example, I recall reading that the MG34 is actually a better weapon than the MG42 in many ways, but was extremely expensive to produce compared to the simplified MG42. The Thompson was a favorite weapon among troopers that used it, but was very difficult to produce compared to later designs such as the grease gun.

Similarly, a main reason the Garand was such a big deal was that switching to such a design necessitated a complete rework of ammunition. This would be a logistical disaster during wartime, but in the period between WWI and WWII the US had the time to make such a changeover.

I always found the most ironic part about the Battle of the Bulge was that it stalled in the Ardennes - for all the reasons the French military thought it was a relatively safe front!

[BikerGnome]

Whether or not the Tiger 2 was a good or bad tank doesn't affect how it is in Opposing Fronts. I mean we have Pershings playing as a Main battle tank and Shermans duel with Tigers. I think it's save to say the Tiger 2 won't be anything like it's real life counter part in terms of technical aspects.

Think you are wasting your efforts here , about 30 pages back this should have been split into Whether the King tiger was any good thread, and left the rest to PE examination

[Caesar]

And that, Akranadas, is utterly pathetic.

[0mar]

The vast majority of Tiger 2s were abandoned. They weren't knocked out by enemy action. Crews simply ran out of ammo and fuel and had to abandon the tank or the Tiger 2 broke down mechanically

The Tiger 1 was much more successful. IMO, it's the better tank especially since it was built much better than the Tiger 2. It had it's share of problems, but in the right hands, a Tiger 1 was unstoppable.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

well - combat damage is a major reason to abandon a tank, especially when retreating strategically and/or in germany's poor logistical situation.

[Tankkiller99]

Has there been a picture of the Marder III yet? And what about the Panzer IV Ausf F2? Supposably the Ausf F2 is supposed to be a tank with the Panzer Elite based on the UK version of the PC Gamer August Issue its mentioned in the article.

[Akranadas]

No there hasn't unfortunately. Thats not to say I haven't been looking for them, but there is a lot of the Panzer Elite units that we haven't seen or even know about, such as their builders. Yet with time all will be reveled.

And that, Akranadas, is utterly pathetic.

I'm sorry you feel that way. May I ask what relevance the King Tigers engine and combat performance has to do with a computer game?

[petethegreek]

might sound obvious but if any veteran allied crews (probably including russians) which tank they'd prefer to be in and they'd more than likely pick a tiger or panther than the ones they fought in - why? because they were tougher, well-armed, and technically superior.

the label that is panned around concerning german tanks as "over engineered" or "over-complex" in my view is daft. i believe it is an overused accusation that stemmed from post war historians and analysists who would be reluctant to attach any kudos to the nazi war machine - even more understandable fresh after the discovery of the holocaust horrors - nobody would get away with saying "sure those nazis were a bit evil....but look how damn good their weapons are, weren't they clever!"

four panzer IVs could quite possibly have been produced for one tiger - but i bet that one tiger is worth 4 panzer IVs - or even more considering the following:

lack of adequate crews. german manpower at this stage was pushed. only a handful of crews were experienced veterans. it made more sense to build fewer tough "super" (ish!) tanks that could be crewed for the large part crack tank crews than producing four times as many inferior tanks that would thus have to be crewed by more conscripts and last gasp newby recruits.

the fact that these tanks were not overly manoeuevrable or fast, may be, in most cases, irrelevant. (although later panthers had most of their problems solved) the tanks were best employed in the deffensive role - camouflaged and covered until they could ambush. even if the tigers had 2000hp (i know im exaggerating!) power plants, tanks running around everywhere would have provided cannon fodder for the allied aircraft. their best bet was to stay hidden and pick off targets approaching them, which is what they did.

appologies to akranadas for diverging again - cant fecking wait to play with Imperial Tiger

[AxisHammer]

this actually needs to be locked now, its so far off topic with all the bloody tank evaltation that doesnt mean jack in game, thank god tbh with that.
i think ceasr should stfu and go post in the realisn thread, he obviously isnt here to discuss the PE, but he is encoraging the extream theory craft that every1 here is basing off different sites and comparing different sets of data!!!!!!

[0mar]

ye, TDS, but most Tiger 2s were still combat operational when they were abandoned. Very, very, very few weapons could penetrate it reliably at any ranges. Tiger IIs simply ran out of ammo and fuel or broke down mechanically. Because Germany was in a terrible spot at that point in the war, the logistics didn't exist to refit and resupply these tanks. Crews simply abandoned it and destroyed them from the inside so that the Allies couldn't capture them.

[Lalilulelo]

After seeing all the new screenshots from E3, something really bothers me, why is Relic using a Porsche(prototype)
tiger 2 instead of the Henschel(production) tiger 2?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I could remember, the Prosche Tiger 2s were rather few in numbers, and had weaker armor protection than the prodcution ones.

Will we ever get to see a Henschel Tiger 2 in the game?

[Mirage Knight]

After seeing all the new screenshots from E3, something really bothers me, why is Relic using a Porsche(prototype) tiger 2 instead of the Henschel(production) tiger 2?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I could remember, the Prosche Tiger 2s were rather few in numbers, and had weaker armor protection than the prodcution ones.

The "Porsche" Tiger was indeed built in small numbers, but the majority of the Tiger II's encountered in France were of that type. That's probably the reason that Relic chose to depict it.

The only difference between the "Porsche" and "Henschel" Tigers was the turret. The initial turret was not designed by Porsche - but rather by Krupp and was more complex to build (although Porsche had built its own prototype for the Tiger II). Field evaluations reveiled that the curved front facing formed a dangerous shot trap that a keen-eyed enemy gunner could exploit. Due to production delays with the replacement Henschel turret, the first batch of Tiger II's were completed with the Krupp turret.

[Lalilulelo]

The "Porsche" Tiger was indeed built in small numbers, but the majority of the Tiger II's encountered in France were of that type. That's probably the reason that Relic chose to depict it.

The only difference between the "Porsche" and "Henschel" Tigers was the turret. The initial turret was not designed by Porsche - but rather by Krupp and was more complex to build (although Porsche had built its own prototype for the Tiger II). Field evaluations reveiled that the curved front facing formed a dangerous shot trap that a keen-eyed enemy gunner could exploit. Due to production delays with the replacement Henschel turret, the first batch of Tiger II's were completed with the Krupp turret.

Exactly, it was kind of disappointing to hear they finally put the king Tiger into the game only to end up it is the inferior Porsche Tiger

Turret front: 180 mm @ 80° (Porsche turret: 60–110 mm, rounded)
Turret side: 80 mm @ 69° (Porsche turret: 80 mm @ 60°)
Turret rear: 80 mm @ 70° (Porsche turret: 80 mm @ 60°)
Turret top: 44 mm @ 0–10° (Porsche turret: 40 mm @ 0–12°)



60-110mm at the turret front, oh well.....

[nichtganz]

The Tiger should be more of a support tank, alone it is good, but is easily flanked. But when supported and is behind friendly tanks is a demon capable of annihilating armor columns. Aside from that it should be an excellent slugger.

[Midgetus]

Did anyone notice that the PE halftrack in the British Glider Tank section of the E3 video has a mortar team firing from its cargo area? To me this seems to indicate that the PE mortar is indeed an upgrade for the halftrack, in direct opposition to the stationary Brit Mortar Pit.

[Sturmhaubitze]

I think it'd be great if there was a WW2 History forum where all these discussions could be held. There seems to be a great deal of interest in the history of the war, considering how long these topics can drag on, but I do agree that so many of the topics wander away from their original purpose.

Anyways, here is how I think the Tiger II will function in CoH:
1. Frontal armour will be impossible, or very hard, to penetrate. Only certain guns have a chance, like the 57mm with AP ammo (I know historically it couldn't, but it fits the consistency of the game) or the Pershing's 90mm. From the rear it will be as vulnerable as the Tiger, making it important to flank.
2. Main gun nearly always penetrates and does lots of damage, more than the Tiger I's gun.
3. It's slow, maybe even slower than the Tiger I (I know this isn't accurate).
4. It costs an incredible amount of Manpower (or Fuel too if its built, but I doubt it), and likely is capped at 1 or 2.

It's big, it's scary, but if you can afford one you're likely winning anyways.

[Mirage Knight]

Exactly - getting a Tiger II would only be adding insult to injury

With regard to German halftracks, I wonder if Relic will redo the Sd.Kfz 251 so that it will show loaded troops and their equipment like how the Sd.Kfz 250 is appparently capable of doing so?

[DatonKallandor]

Not just show the loaded units - they can still fire. I do expect that to be a Panzer Elite speciality though - one of their unique points.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Tiger IIs simply ran out of ammo and fuel or broke down mechanically.

Right... and getting shot has this tendency to cause mechanical failures.

[Oxyde2]

Well, I'd say having your engine ripped apart by a high-velocity round is a mechanical failure.

[Corzocl]

awsome... awsome to the MAX

[DatonKallandor]

Did anyone notice that the PE halftrack in the British Glider Tank section of the E3 video has a mortar team firing from its cargo area? To me this seems to indicate that the PE mortar is indeed an upgrade for the halftrack, in direct opposition to the stationary Brit Mortar Pit.

Or they simply put a mortar team into the halftrack.

[0mar]

Well, they didn't break down due to enemy fire (very rarely that is). The suspension wasn't built for a 70t monster nor was the engine adequate to transport 70ts of armor. Finally, the tank never had a QA process like the Pz4 or Panther.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Wasn't the mortar crew in the front of the halftrack? Maybe it can still have a grenadier squad in back.

Here's an account of the KTs in the Battle of the Bulge that may prove of interest.

People are acting like losing tanks to breakdowns rather than to enemy fire is somehow a point in the KTs favor. It isn't. If the tanks worked, they would have been lost to enemy fire. They didn't, so they wern't. It doesn't matter if 2 KTs are worth 3 Tigers if half the KTs breakdown on the road or are too heavy to cross any of the bridges.

As I think that link shows, disabled tanks are usually abandoned, even if they can still fight. That's because a tank with minor mechanical damage or a stuck tank is a death sentence to its crew, even if it can fight perfectly well.

some interesting snips:

Knittel was still in telephone contact with his trapped men and ordered Wendt to advance again. (17) Wendt returned in the direction of Stavelot and “tried to do my best. But suddenly my driver turned around. The intercom on board didn’t work anymore. Slowly, we rolled toward the rear. We had already passed the command post and the tank stopped 200 meters from the Petit-Spai bridge. I realized only then the meaning of the disaster. Our tank had been struck and the radio operator had been killed. The shell had struck the base of the turret and deflected downward into the hull. Shrapnel damaged the transmission and the hydraulic fluid ran out. We could still fire but it was impossible to drive the tank.” (18)

Late in the day McGeorge tried an advance from a new direction, moving his tanks down the road from Francorchamps which TF Lovelady had used earlier and turning west to approach La Gleize over relatively open ground. The open fields of fire gave the Tigers an opportunity to use their superior firepower to advantage. SS-Hauptsturmführer Möbius, firing his 204 from a commanding position at the eastern edge of the village, knocked out a Sherman at a range of 2,400 meters with two shots. Tigers 213 and 211 along with the Panthers at the Werimont farm engaged the TF McGeorge tanks at ranges up to 1,500 meters. They kept up a hot fire, but the numerical superiority of the American tanks soon told. The crew of Tiger 211 abandoned their tank after several hits to the turret knocked out the sensitive electrical firing system and the tank commander, SS-Untersturmführer Hantusch, was wounded in the head. Shortly afterwards the crew of Tiger 213 followed suit after accurate American fire blew off the front third of the tank’s gun.

We saw the long tube of the Tiger’s 88mm gun emerge from behind the last building. The M-10 gunner must have been tracking the tank with his telescopic sight, for as the Tiger cleared the building, the M-10 fired one round of armor piercing shot which penetrated the armor on the right side above the track, about 14 inches under the turret and four to five feet to the rear of the front glacis plate. The Tiger stopped in its tracks... Surprisingly the tank did not burn.

[Mirage Knight]

The suspension was quite adequate for the Tiger II. The real faults lay in a woefully underpowered engine and transmission and steering assemblies rated for a vehicle of considerably lesser tonnage.

Wasn't the mortar crew in the front of the halftrack? Maybe it can still have a grenadier squad in back.

No - it seems to occupy the entire passenger area behind the driver's position with enough space for just the mortar crew, pretty much as was the case in real life.

[Ashmole3110]

Holy shit...creeping barrage....

[say1988]

[q]the label that is panned around concerning german tanks as "over engineered" or "over-complex" in my view is daft. i believe it is an overused accusation that stemmed from post war historians and analysists who would be reluctant to attach any kudos to the nazi war machine[/q]
What was the main disadvantage of the German armoured forces on both fronts? Numbers. Plain and simple, there were far to many Shermans and T-34s for the Panzers to compete effectively.
How do you increase numbers? Decrease production time.
How do you decrease production time? Simplify the item being produced.

Now by the later stages of the war the problems of manpower and supplies means this doesn't matter, but in, say 42 or 43 (even the Panzer IV was rather complex compared to is Allied counterparts, i.e. Sherman and T-34) this could have made an impact.

Or they simply put a mortar team into the halftrack.

I doubt it, though possible. Most likely it is an upgrade. I could see it being their basic mortar team. Perhaps it has an MG upgrade as well, to act as their basic MG team. Or either 37mm PaK 36 (wehrmacht AT gun) or 75mm KwK 37 (early Panzer IV gun) to fill in AT gun. Thereby greating a series of mechanised heavy weapon crews (fitting for the Panzer Elite forces).

Though for this it would likely need the weapon crew to be vulnerable to small arms.

[Sturmhaubitze]

I doubt it, though possible. Most likely it is an upgrade. I could see it being their basic mortar team. Perhaps it has an MG upgrade as well, to act as their basic MG team. Or either 37mm PaK 36 (wehrmacht AT gun) or 75mm KwK 37 (early Panzer IV gun) to fill in AT gun. Thereby greating a series of mechanised heavy weapon crews (fitting for the Panzer Elite forces).

Though for this it would likely need the weapon crew to be vulnerable to small arms.

I'd certainly love to see all the elements of the Panzergrenadier/Panzeraufklärungs Heavy Platoon become available, which used the KwK36, MG42, and GrW34.

[Akranadas]

SdKfz 250 with a Mortar crew


It seems to me from what I've seen and read the the SdKfz 250 is a modular type of unit in that it changes it's role depending on what infantry you place in it.

Panzer Grenadiers with Panzershecks makes it a hit and run AT unit
Machine Gun crew turns it into a mobile MG unit
Mortar Crew turns it into a mobile Mortar unit.
Heck, maybe adding Pioneers to it turns it into a mobile repair unit?

[spartan73]

@say1988, you post seems to say that the main problem with German armored forces was there lack of numbers? and that most of the over engineered and over-complex views came from post war historians? not correct. most tiger 2's etc that were made broke down... its doesn't matter how many of them were produced they constantly broke down and had to be destroyed abandoned by their crew... it doesn't matter how many were produced if the issues surrounding their underpowered engine, transmission and steering assemblies.

[Mirage Knight]

Akranadas:

Just thought of something...adding an Axis Officer has it turn into a C&C vehicle with a rangefinder, radios and a frame antennae.

spartan73:

The main problem that the Germans had was the fact that they simply weren't prepared for a long war. They lacked the initial industrial capacity needed to boost and support their war machine. When that industrial infrastructure was repeatedly hit by British and American bombers, the ability to repair and replace lost aircraft and tanks was hindered even more. Aggravating the situation was the fact that Germany had no way of striking back at the Allies own industrial infrastructure.

[Gethsemani]

The German industry did not enter Full Scale War Production until 1943. That's something to think about.

[Alkhali]

It does seem that the APC can act like a mobility and armour upgrade to any infantry. It is interesting to see if this is balanced by the PE playstyle, by the cost of the transport, or by a performance decrease. Perhaps infantry may even recieve a bonus when they are placed within a transport.

Sniper-halftrack ftw tbh. Queue the scenes of the half-track stealthily peeking through second storey windows and out of church towers.

[Gethsemani]

Reminds me of the utility hummers in C&C Generals. Put 4 rocketlaunchers and a sniper inside one and just watch as nothing gets close to your awesome doomsday Jeep.

[petethegreek]

Say 1988

your argument makes very little sense. all very good "spamming" panzer IVs but who will man them? 40 panzer IVs, manned by at most 10 competent crews and 30 (if possible to recruit enough, let alone sufficient fuel for their machines!) conscripts, reservists not fully fit (medically or too old) for front line service, and even hitler youth. this would be cannon fodder for allied crews (who had some fair experience by this point in the war), AT guns, artillery and overhwelmingly, airpower. even the experienced crews, although able to operate effectively would not have the survivabilty had they been in tanks that can actually withstand a pummelling. a panzer IV was far far far more vulnerable to even shermans.

10 (these are hypothetical numbers for the point im making) tigers, tiger IIs or even panthers crewed by the good crews would be far more dangerous to an allied advance. especially since they could not and would not dare fight out in the open due to the threat from the air. even if germany could have produced 40 king tigers it would make little difference as they didnt have the crews for them.

any records of dug-in panzer IVs picking off tank columns? no? because they are not (as) effective defensive platforms.

one argument i would accept would be that maybe the germans should have focusssed on producing the panther. by this stage a lot of its faults had been ironed out, not to mention experience on the machine in the wermacht meant they knew how to effectively deal with and maintain its remaining faults when in the field. its 75mm high velocity gun was effective against any allied (western) tank and its armour was good all round, particularly the front.

back to the original point - its irrelevant how many tanks you have if you dont have the crews to man them. im fully aware of the economics and logistics on producing more tanks - i think you missed the point entirely. of course numbers were the problem, but that would always be the case when a german nation is fighting the combined arms of britain, the commonwealth, the US and above all the USSR. i think its a fair thing to say that germany could never won the war once it fought the US and USSR simultaniously. it just didnt have the manpower, not because it couldnt produce enough tanks.

and yes the rocket hummer was stupid. 5 of those with a medic van in the middle made for carnage.

[Ashmole3110]

I want paks in tracks!

[LoneWolf666]

I want paks in tracks!

All in all, an antitank halftrack is quite possible. :P

[Caesar]

Peter: The Germans were working on changing production lines over to all Panthers. They had a grand vision where the Panther would be their MBT, the Tigers a heavy, and the various Assualt guns support etc. They knew the Panther was vastly superior and were to replace the Panzer IV totally. However, it was decided that the drop in production of Panzer IVs that would result in completely stopping production to convert the assembly lines would be unacceptable. They needed every tank for the Eastern front.

The Germans did actually mount 88s on half tracks. I'm not sure how widespread they were, but hey, when did rarity and historical accuracy stop relic?

[Mirage Knight]

The Germans did actually mount 88s on half tracks. I'm not sure how widespread they were, but hey, when did rarity and historical accuracy stop relic?

25 12-18 ton halftracks were converted to mount the 88mm FlaK 36 for combat evaluation purposes between 1939 and 1940. Lack of interest effectively shelved the project.

The chassis of the Sd.Kfz 251 was too light and narrow to allow for the mounting of a weapon of that size and weight. However, a number of 251's were modified to carry 75mm PaK 40 AT guns towards the end of the war.

[Sturmhaubitze]

Say 1988

your argument makes very little sense. all very good "spamming" panzer IVs but who will man them? 40 panzer IVs, manned by at most 10 competent crews and 30 (if possible to recruit enough, let alone sufficient fuel for their machines!) conscripts, reservists not fully fit (medically or too old) for front line service, and even hitler youth. this would be cannon fodder for allied crews (who had some fair experience by this point in the war), AT guns, artillery and overhwelmingly, airpower. even the experienced crews, although able to operate effectively would not have the survivabilty had they been in tanks that can actually withstand a pummelling. a panzer IV was far far far more vulnerable to even shermans.

say1988's argument is valid for all stages of the war, especially the very beginning and middle. Production capacity limited more than just tanks, as only one-third of the Panzergrenadiers and Panzeraufklärungs were equipped with halftracks. The other two-thirds made do with trucks (for Panzergrenadiers), or motorcycles and kübelwagen jeeps (for Panzeraufklärungs). Having armoured halftracks for all their mechanised troops would've been a great boon.
Around the middle of the war there was not enough tank production to equip the trained crews. Rather than have trained crews sit idle, and sending in understrength divisions with less tanks, they had to press StuG III G assault guns into service as tanks to fill the gaps. There were also numerous cases of stolen Soviet tanks being used in panzer companies, due to mechanical failures or combat losses that didn't kill the crew.
The problem of crews with rushed training didn't arise until much later when the Soviets were already winning, and had dealt severe blows to the Wehrmacht after the middle of 1943. Having sufficient production before 1943 would've greatly helped the Germans in the Eastern front, as their forces contained a high amount of confident and experienced troops at that time.

back to the original point - its irrelevant how many tanks you have if you dont have the crews to man them. im fully aware of the economics and logistics on producing more tanks - i think you missed the point entirely. of course numbers were the problem, but that would always be the case when a german nation is fighting the combined arms of britain, the commonwealth, the US and above all the USSR. i think its a fair thing to say that germany could never won the war once it fought the US and USSR simultaniously. it just didnt have the manpower, not because it couldnt produce enough tanks.

Actually the defeat of Germany was inevitable after 1943, well before D-Day. The Red Army was in full-swing after the battle of Kursk, and was pushing the Wehrmacht back at a steady pace from that point onwards. The US and British governments knew this, but they still had to act, unless they wanted to stare across the English Channel and see the entire continent owned by the Soviet Union. Command & Conquer: Red Alert, anyone?

[nichtganz]

Well the Germans could have beaten the Russian Army, it was a matter of facing three superpowers (well two actually the british dont count :P). If America, and Britain hadnt jumped the bandwagon, the Germans would have ended up holding the russians back, however victory would be impossible for both sides, and most likely wouldve ended up in some sort of treaty.

[retroholyfire]

How could the Germans have held the Russians back? The Russians had completely destroyed the Germans attacking Stalingrad and were marching onwards despite Germany's attempts to stop them. They were building better tanks and more of them. They had huge numbers advantage and if they did get stopped they would just wait for huge reinforcements and start forward again. Germany wouldn't have been able to stop them and certainly wouldn't have been able to make a treaty. The Russians had already made a treaty with Germany and the result was they got invaded and suffered the largest number of deaths out of any nation fighting the war. I don't think they thought much of the Germans after that as post war shows.

[nichtganz]

^

If there were no British and Americans, the Russians wouldve never made it past poland. The Russian Military didnt have enough strength to contend with German military supremecy.

For good facts look here: http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forum...ad.php?t=52749

There are some speculation though :wink: .