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i still think the damage needs to be buffed to the point where it is actually good at killing things, of course that might cause a price hop but i wouldnt mind if it could easily clear out At's as the allied calliope and howitzer can do to german mg's and pak's.
Except that would make it a Stuka clone. Thankfully it seems like Relic shares my position that a Stuka clone is not what we need.
It is not a stuka clone. A stuka is far less vulnerable than the nebelwerfer. Even if the nebelwerfer was buffed, I would still want a stuka because it has armor and mobility, where as the nebelwerfer has meat and slow.
#54
How does that make it a Stuka clone? If they buffed the Nebel so it could kill something they could make it a slow moving, easily killed and recaptureable artillery piece. The Stuka would be a fast moving artillery piece that does medium damage to everything and has light armor and the built in ability to reinforce in the fields.Except that would make it a Stuka clone. Thankfully it seems like Relic shares my position that a Stuka clone is not what we need.
If it was a Stuka clone then the Howitzer is also a Calliope clone. The Howitzer is very high damage, very long range, no mobility, easily killable recaptureable artillery piece. The Calliope is a highly mobile highly armored high damage long range artillery piece.
Are the Howitzer and Calliope clones? I think not.
With that said, the Stuka and nebelwerfer can almost be compared as counterparts to the Howitzer and Calliope, with the same basic concepts, but not as good, nore should they be, since they are non doctrine specific units.
The true mind can weather all the lies and illusions without being lost. The true heart can touch the poison of hatred without being harmed. Since beginning-less time, darkness thrives in the void but always yields to purifying light.
#55
Nebels AOE damage is broken according to a recent bug report. It's values are reversed for Friendly vs Enemy splash damage. Enemy units take half splash damage, while friendly units take full splash damage. Current thinking is that it should be reversed (along with the Axis Mortar and Stuka).
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=143812
At the very least, don't have any friendlies around if any indirect fire will land near them.
It makes me a bit frustrated every time people defend the Nebelwerfer with these ridiculous statements.
"Suppression! Suppression! Blah blah blah."
It is a worthless unit and there's simply no denying it. Two to three seconds worth of suppression does not help you fight against anything, as it has no effect on weapon teams, garrisoned units, or vehicles, and riflemen will likely move out of the way. Hell, even if they don't move, a suppressed rifleman squad can still use suppressing fire to pin your squads almost instantaneously.
Well, if that is a bug, then it should be fixed asap. It is retardedly easy to fix a lot of these bugs in the code.
I'll point you to this post for my veiws. Ignore the bit about the video. Point 3 onwards is what you want.
I don't know what i'm talking about, ignore me.
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#59
You really have to ignore the fact that it's firing rockets that explode. The design element of the Nebal is to provide a delayed Suppression zone for Riflespam.
I know, I know. There's like explosions everywhere, and the real Nebal could actually kill something, but it's working "as intended".
It's just not a historically accurate Nebal, so no wonder you're upset about it. I really don't use it either, it's just too situational, but I don't really use PUMA, FlakPanzer, STuG, STuH, and Sniper that often either. I just use the Nebal the least.
"Only the insane are strong enough to survive, and only those who survive judge what is sane."
Right, but the "suppression zone" is of little value since its effects last for so little time, and if you're prepared to storm in, chances are a stray rocket will suppress AND kill your own units.
As a suppression piece, it has little value. Some, but little. As anything else, it is useless.
#61
Its just, yes it does serve its purpose which is suppresion. But that does not mean it is not useless.
The MG42 is vastly better in almost every way. Other than the range.
But the MG42 supresses until it dies, it does not have a 1 minute reload time, it does a LOT more damage, it is cheaper, and a bit less vurnerable. If someone gets close to a nebel, its toast. Making the nebel utterly useless.
Not to mention if a rocket lands on a rifleman's head he will live through it.
If it absolutely has to remain as a long range suppression device (and I'm not particularly fond of the idea of it maintaining that role, but that's neither here nor there) instead of an actual heavy damage dealing artillery unit, then the suppression it inflicts needs to last longer, probably well up into the pinned range. It needs to be long enough, at the very least, for axis infantry placed right on the edge of what would be considered a safe distance from the center of the attack to move in and take advantage of the suppression without having the infantry they're attacking going right back to normal status a second and a half after the nebel's stopped firing. It could also stand to have a point or two shaved off its pop cap.
A degree of ruthlessness is inherent in any enterprise of consequence.
He is right...just remove it from the game
Ugh, no wonder the Axis are having such a time of the Allies.
You guys are all looking at this backassward.
What Relic needs to do is nerf the Stuka to make the Nebel better. Mmmmm'key? MG42 nerf wouldn't hurt either because then the suppression effect of the nebel would be better appreciated.
#67
Hell no. Leave my only unit that can stand up to BAR's alone please.
I have only gotten a nebel to suprress for about 5 seconds, that is worth jack. Also, I do not know this or not, but does it suppres your own units? Because if it does, wtf is the point in suppresing the enemy if it happens to you as well.
Not quite to the extent that it suppresses enemy units, but yes, it does suppress your own as well. Sort of puts a damper on the whole 'charge in under cover of Nebelwerfer fire' thing.
#69
Yet it damages your units more, making the nebelwerfer not only useless, but harmful.
... you heard it here first...You guys are all looking at this backassward.
What Relic needs to do is nerf the Stuka to make the Nebel better. Mmmmm'key? MG42 nerf wouldn't hurt either because then the suppression effect of the nebel would be better appreciated.
Given how relic has tried to balance things in the past, I wouldn't put it past them.
Sherman is too powerful against infantry? Ok, we will make the croc better than. Sherman too powerful against tanks? Ok, we will make the M10 better. Nebelwerfer doesn't do much damage? Ok, we will make it do less damage, but it will suppress things like mad.
I am not sure how this happened but I am now in love with the nebelwerfer.
Maybe I just got lucky but it was killing things fairly well. I had two of them but it took out a motar, a few AT guns, and rifles.
"Stormtroopers gave me the rank I have today." Omar
just thought of something: i find that any type of artillery unit [howitzer, nebel, stuka, calliope] are better when fired one at a time. if you have four howitzers, firing them one by one usually does more of an effect. of course don't click on the same point each time, but like click on areas around that tiny point that you fired the first howitzer. major effect.
An FYI: Don't target your own troops when you drop a Nebelwerfer barrage. That should take care of the whole "suppressing/damaging your own units" problem. The idea is to charge in after, not during; you don't even need to stand a mile away, just... outside of the barrage
I think they show replace the current nebel enimation with the rockets from the caliopee rocket barage. Thats how they look on the WWII films. Also i read somewhere before that they used smoke and incindiary rounds. So what if they could have a like 10% chance to light a building on fire. Also give a way to lay down smoke and have it cover a larger area then the motar smoke. Those two thing would make me have a nebel every game. I actually use smoke sometime with the motar (not so much with axis since their motar is broken), but imagine covering you tiger with smoke from half the map away
7 seconds of suppression, and the time inbetween the hits means that when u charge, you're getting very little benefit.
Also, the Nebel's splash is actually huge, to guaruntee not getting your troops damaged/suppressed by a nebel, they need to be a distance where the charge will be even worse off.
offtopic:
buff the nebel, remove from t3, replace with firestorm in terror as a call in, and when called in, you get a battery of nebels not just one
maybe then we'd see not only more nebels, but more terror doctine useage as well, depending on how much buffer the nebel is
hollaa
And then 2 seconds after your men start firing, the riflemen get up. Not to mention the probable vehicle/tank support that they have that wasn't damaged AT ALL or, God forbid, a .30 cal.An FYI: Don't target your own troops when you drop a Nebelwerfer barrage. That should take care of the whole "suppressing/damaging your own units" problem. The idea is to charge in after, not during; you don't even need to stand a mile away, just... outside of the barrage
That Terror call-in idea sounds really interesting. I think we can all agree that the firestorm is pretty useless considering how long it takes to actually hit the ground, so changing it to a nebelwerfer battery fire mission could be just the thing it needs. It would come in fast, but there would be a very loud sound as it came in, so you could move your units out of the way if you're quick enough.
It would be cool if terror got a unique unit (Tiger Ace... not that unique).
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I don't believe this...source?I don't understand why Relic made it so useless while in reality the Nebelwerfer was responsable for 80% of the Western Allied infantry deaths after D-day.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebelwerfer
think some people need to reread this
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http://forums.relicnews.com/showpost...17&postcount=3
Nebelwerfer is one of those units that look good on paper but fail to do anything in-game.
The suppression lasts for so little time (10-12 seconds) that it's impossible to coordinate an attack unless you have cloaked storms nearby ready to assault a position. However, the nebel is wildly inaccurate so you might end up suppressing your own storms. Plus, for only another 25 manpower (like 4 seconds) you can have another storm squad which is usually MUCH better than a nebel. The nebel simply doesn't work with any other unit but cloaked storms. You can't run in volks because the suppression will have worn off by the time the volks engage. If you use the volks to spot for the nebel, you run the risk of having the nebel suppress your own volks. Also, if you can see him he can see you, so he'll be engaging your volks with his riflemen and doing combat maneuvars, making the nebel even more of a shot in the dark. If you use nebels with Pumas, you just wasted 325 manpower because the Puma has no problem with infantry. A little kiting and boom, dead squad. Finally, the nebel does jack shit to any vehicle so even if have this elaborate plan worked out, a single quad .50cal can ruin your assault.
The problem is that the nebel doesn't do anything for Axis that another unit can do better. For 325 manpower, it simply isn't worth the investment. I probably wouldn't buy the nebel if it was 200 manpower, it's simply that unwieldly to use. The nebel won't kill enough units to recoup it's manpower cost nor will it enable other units to do the same.
I have used nebel in some of the few games that I played online /you can tell I'm a noob by the fact that I build them
So it's more like psycological weapon.
But the problem is that once you get to higher levels people realise that the Nebelwerfer can't do shit and the psychological effect becomes useless.
You are right. Better invest this points to call in another Tiger. he he
I'm just sharing my expirience with nebels. But as you said , that fear factor realy depends of who you facing in battle.
#86
I think I'm going to give them a second chance, and play a bunch of games where I force myself to use it. Maybe I'm just trying to ram a square peg into a round hole.....
^^ iv been trying this, with mixed results, they redinitly need a buff but they ARE a lot of fun to play around with
Not everyone plays blitz.
#89
RedDevil:
Wait until they fix the AoE damage on it before you go doing that :-)
A section from a reply of mine elswhere on the Nebelwerfer:
1. Agree with this as I already stated.the Issues i have with the nebel are
1) too high of a pop cap. the Walking stuka only takes 4 pop cap (i think) and it is effectively the same.
2) for being the scourge of infantry (in that it was the Only thing they could take out) it doesn't scare infantry at all. a Nebel strike only servers as a minor annoyance to infantry. as you rarely kill Any one and merely suppress them for a couple seconds.
3) it Only harms infantry... and by the time I get it infantry are being phased out with Armour. It becomes rather useless.
2. I think you miss the point of Nebelwerfers. They are meant to provide a partial replacement for the Mortar. Something they do quite well IMHO, over the radiuses of an axis or mortar they are rather more damaging, even with the switched friendly fire table. They have a fractionally higher AoE too (8 vs. 7 for the damaging radiuses of the axis mortar). They also fire the same number of projectiles and do so over a longer range in a shorter amount of time. Their primary issue is their scatter distance, (15). It's so great that even 6 rockets can't reliably cover the entire scatter area in damage.
But that’s why I say 3+ are so good, you can at this point drop so many rockets on your enemies that every unit is caught in the damage radius of 1 or more rockets. With 6 Nebels you can reliably catch a target squad in enough AoE's to inflict an average damage high enough to kill a rifleman. Since their aren't many allied units tougher than rifles without Vet and your saturating the entire target area like that, 6 of them will literally kill almost anything in the target area without issue.
3. True enough, but the same applies to the Mortar and the Walking Stuka too, it's not like the Walking Stuka does THAT much AT damage. At heart all 3 are general area of affect weapons. The Mortar is the earliest and in theory should be phased out once Nebelwerfers arrive. The Nebelwerfer replaces the Mortar with a long range weapon with much heftier damage than said mortar, but only effective vs. infantry and with limited durability/ manoeuvrability. The Stuka on the other hand is a much higher damage weapon, but it is limited by a shorter range and very bad scatter, at any kind of long range. It is however more durable and more effective vs. tanks.
The real issue with the Nebelwerfer isn’t it’s MP cost or, (to a degree), it’s firepower, it the simple fact that each rocket isn’t much more effective than a Mortar round and it’s no more accurate, (in comparison to the AoE size), than one over the weapons max range. What that means is you need each target squad to take several hits if the weapon is to actually outperform the mortar, (because the mortar can fire more often). The only way to do this is to mass Nebels which is just too expensive in terms of pop cap.
At heart that is the real issue with the Nebelwerfer. It’s not underpowered, it just needs to be massed to be cost effective in comparison to a mortar. It’s longer range and better AoE easily allow it to match or exceed the mortar by and large per shot. The problem is you give up non-barrage fire and the faster recharge of the mortar barrage to get it. As a result it looks distinctly inferior when not present in decent numbers. Get enough together to coat the area in rockets however and it’s better AoE and much better range really begin to shine. It’s also harder to kill than a mortar, (due to greater range), making it’s greater MP cost less of an issue since you should lose the Nebelwerfers less. Meaning the MP that would otherwise go into replacing lost mortars can go into buying more Nebelwerfers.
However so long as it costs an arm and a leg pop cap wise all these advantages when massed and the ease of massing really don’t mean anything as it’s not practical to mass them.
Wow i feel bad for carl this is the third time he has had to Paste what he type from the balance forums. I think someone should make a balance topic in the balance forums just so it is more organised.
well said omar.
you basically summed up my thoughts. i hate the nebel, they really need to buff its aoe and damage (leave suppression as it is now). this way, it can actually kill some units, and at the same time leave the rest suppressed.
and it won't replace the stuka simply because the nebel cannot destroy vehicles.
think of the stuka as a good all-round artillery. whereas the nebel is a specialized anti-infantry arty.
Carl 3 nebels is 1k manpower! One thousand! For a hundred more you can have 2 colliapes that does everything the nebels do but 10 times better.
#94
Yet it is so innacurate.....An FYI: Don't target your own troops when you drop a Nebelwerfer barrage. That should take care of the whole "suppressing/damaging your own units" problem. The idea is to charge in after, not during; you don't even need to stand a mile away, just... outside of the barrage
But the calliope isn't a fair comparision, it's doctarine specific and (like most doctarine specific unit), should really be considered T4. It's also grossly OP right now, and like most off map call in tanks grossly under costed.Carl 3 nebels is 1k manpower! One thousand! For a hundred more you can have 2 colliapes that does everything the nebels do but 10 times better.
A MUCH fairer comparision is the Stuka or Mortar, which it compares (at the limits of it's range), quite favourably to due to it's greater range and similar damage at range, (the Stuka is better but misses so much at extreme range it's nearly usless at those kind of distances). The real issue is that like the Stuka you still need a fair few to reliably hit anything, (at extreme range), with enough shots to kill it. The Stuka however fall off when massed above 4. The Nebelwerfer on the other hand is just coming into it's own at 4 together due to it's greater scatter angle and AoE, (and thus it's tendancy to cover a larger area with it's hits). With that kind of AoE coverage massed nebels can play havoc with troop concantrations anmd their quite respectable building damage makes them murder against garrissioned buildings.
As to the price. Compare them in the long run to mortars. Your going to lose a LOT more mortars than you will nebels in the long run, (due to the greater range). So you can put all that saved MP from less deaths back in to cover the Higher Nebelwerfer cost and the cost of massing so many.
Thats not to say I dn't think a slight MP cost drop isn't in order, just don't overdo it.
My suggestions:
1. Fix the Freindly vs. enemy damage switch-around.
2. Drop pop cap cost to 3 and the MP to 300
3. increase scatter angle and max scatter distance values by 100%
4. decrease recharge time to 40 seconds and add a smoke barrage in as well.
5. add a small (10MU) MU cost to the barrage. Massed barrages are cool when used, but ae very powerful, their should be a hefty cost to doing it. Doubly so when you consider the area it can now cover.
#96
If you immediately follow up a nebel barrage on enemy units with an assault, then do the final killing while the enemy is suppressed.
The nebel does kill but only sporadically and the chance of this increases when you have more than one. If the enemy has a forward staging area and are using this area then due to the nebels wide barrage effect it can be a serious deterent against the allies.
Nebel barrage plus puma/flamer HT can work well for mopping up.
If your after damage per rocket then go with a Stuka as its damage stats are much greater than both the nebel and caliope (of course calli fires 30 v 6) nb: see linearcurve
cheers bodybag
The beatings will continue until morale improves
a MU cost to the barrage would crap up the unit they would have to buff the over damage to make it useable. Namely because of the allies uber calliope tank.
The calliope is a badly balance and overpowered piece of metal that I’d dearly love to permanently reduce to a hulk IMHONamely because of the allies uber calliope tank.. Don't even compare ANYTHING to it because nothing is a fair comparison.
Would you REALLY like 6 Nebelwerfers to be dropping Rockets with huge AoE's and damage outputs, (they get massive buffs from fixing the bugged tables), over an area 4 times as large as a calliope barrage with the whole barrage doing enough damage over that area to wipe out any rifle squads caught in the open and collapse most garrison-able buildings in that area, and they're doing it EVERY 45 seconds.a MU cost to the barrage would crap up the unit they would have to buff the over damage to make it useable.
Ok that was a bit of an exaggeration, I’ve only tested them with the current scatter values, (which only gives an AoE about double that of the calliope). But 6 Nebelwerfers firing on mass can even at max range into the fog of war match a calliope barrage against infantry and better it against buildings. Not giving that an MU cost would be as IMBA as doing the same for the Calliope is now.
A long reload time isn't the answer either as it still means the player WILL hit the fire button EVERY time it recharges. To make the player actually consider weather he should use it, it needs a cost associated with it. On the other hand you pay a lot of MP and Pop Cap, (especially compared to the calliope, which is fine IMHO, it's available in larger quantities and at an earlier stage than that is), so the barrage cost should be low.
60 MU per 6 Launcher barrage isn't that expensive.
Actually it does really nasty damage to garrisonable buildings. and since it does minimal armour damage you can send Puma's/Halftracks in as the barrage is coming down. the suppreshion will take care of most threats and by the time they unsupress you'll have done a lot of damage, to mention nothing of unloding a couple of MP44 Storms from the halftrack.-does nothing at all to buildings or armor
BUT as i've pointed out like 50 time, (SO PAY ATTENTION THIS TIME), several Nebels together even with the bugged tables DO do VERY immpressive damage to most infantry unitsd, even airborne get hurt hard and rifles just get tottally beat sensless.
6 nebels cost twice as much as 2 colliapes, in addition they are extremely fragile and slow. Where as the colliape is a freaking sherman, with all the mobility and armor that goes along with it.
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