Dark Angels or "Mum, am I spchecial?"

[coolmandool]

Hi,
Just been reading through a bunch of the rumours regarding the new BA codex and comparing it to the DA codex...

Putting what I suppose will be the new universal SM rules aside (ie. bolt pistols, combat squads, less wargear options etc...) - it got me wondering... What exactly are Dark Angels good for now?

Blood Angels apparently have a ridiculous number of Assault options (including assaults from vehicles and free assault insane assault guys) and the psyker reincarnation of John Rambo (ie. Mephiston). So what do DA have?

Ravenwing? - well, there is no advantage to fielding ravenwing anymore! I've lost jink and can only have 1 assault cannon in my landspeeder support squadrons.

Deathwing? - is mixing weapons actually an advantage?

Azrael? - BA John Rambo is rumoured to be the same cost. BA John Rambo is a psyker, feels no pain, has a jump pack equivalent, artificer armour, a force sword as well as better stats... Azrael has a helmet...

While I was worried about the DA codex but it didn't seem right to talk about without anything to compare it to... So the question is - what exactly are special about the DA's? They operate along codex lines with LESS options due to the Deathwing/Ravenwing groupings. They're not particularly shooty, nor are they particularly fighty. Sure a few of them are fearless, but fearless doesn't count for squat when you're army has no known advantages!

[DoomKnights]

Ravenwing, Scout. Nuff said on that.

Azrael, no other model in the game can give the ability that that helm can give to.

Deathwing, first round nuff said.

BA, does better on other stuff just as it should. Its two different out looks on Space Marines.

[FerociousBeast]

A look at the projected BA lineup, however, shows them to be just as versatile as the DA are right now, with even more goodies.

I too am disappointed with what BA has to say about the DA dex. Particularly with the Veteran Squad's options. They get everything DA Company Vets get (inc. combi-weapons and storm bolters) and ALSO get jump packs. In other words, Company Vets are not the DAs differentiating list selection.

The problem DA players like me have with the new codex is that we used to have three unique options: Deathwing, Ravenwing and unique power armor with Intractable. Now we have only two unique options: Deathwing and Ravenwing. If you were one of those, like me, who plays power armor Dark Angels, once codex:BA and codex:SM come out we may as well be playing Smurfs.

All right, now I'm on the subject, I may as well just go all out. Let's compare the BA and DA lists. First listed what the Blood Angels have and then their DA counterpart.

Blood Angels ---------------------- Dark Angels
HQ
Dante ------------------------------ Azrael
Mephiston ------------------------- Ezekiel
Tycho ------------------------------ Sammael
Corbulo ---------------------------- Belial
Lemartes -------------------------- Asmodai... um, wait, that's right we only have 4 special HQs
Captain ---------------------------- Master
Librarian --------------------------- Librarian
Chaplain --------------------------- Chaplain
------------------------------------- Interrogator-Chaplain
Honor Guard ----------------------- Command Squad

ELITES
Terminator Squad ----------------- Deathwing Squad
Techmarine ------------------------ Techmarine
Dreadnought ----------------------- Dreadnought
Furioso Dreadnought --------------- Mortis Dreadnought... oh yeah we didn't get this.
Veteran Squad --------------------- Company Veterans
Scouts ------------------------------ Scouts
Death Company -------------------- __________________

TROOPS
Assault Squad ---------------------- ________________
Tactical Squad ---------------------- Tactical Squad

FAST ATTACK
Bike Squadron ---------------------- Ravenwing Bike Squadron
Attack Bike Squadron -------------- _________________(????)
Land Speeder Squadron ------------ RW Support Squadron
____________ --------------------- Assault Squad (theirs is a Troops option)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Devastators ------------------------- Devastators
Predator ----------------------------- Predator
Vindicator --------------------------- Vindicator
Land Raider ------------------------- Land Raider
LRC ---------------------------------- LRC
Whirlwind --------------------------- Whirlwind
Baal Predator ------------------------ __________________

As you can see, the new BA codex gets just about everything DA has, and then some. I count 6 more selections for the BAs than for the DAs. Wait, but we can take Terminators and Ravenwing as troops! you say. Yes, if we use a specific special character. But BA can take Assault Squads as troops no matter what their HQ is.

So I ask, what is it that makes the DA codex special now? I'm not seeing a whole hell of a lot.

[Worsle]

Well Lemartes and the interrogator chaplain are equivalents if we must match every thing up, I do also find it funny that there is no BA bitching there about not getting a superior chaplain with wargear choices. The fact is the DA are as special as every other closely codex chapter and that is how they always have been. In reality they should nor have got a book to them selves but because of the forces of history and the fact space marines make money.

Really this is how it should be the DA are not that special, you have scouting bikers and fearless that is your lot. With veteran skills being contracted for space marines, as they should be, if you want your DA to be special you will need to use the deathwing and the ravenwing as these are the only things that make the chapter special.

[DoomKnights]

And what if they give the same fearless units to all those for BA?

[radical ed]

Im really surprised and disapointed about the mortis dread thing. It was one of the coolest things about DA, and made me really want a DA army just to field Auto-cannon and las cannon mortis dreads .......bah

But back on topic, the BA list seems more expansive than the DA one, with a lot more options and cool stuff.
On the other hand, according to fluff, apart from Mortis dreads, DA arnt all that different from a codex army. Sure there 1st company wear bone white armour and there fast attack dept are one company and wear black, but the rest of the army is really just chapter that conforms to the codex astartes ideals.

[FerociousBeast]

They follow codex organization, but in the fluff their psychology is different. That is represented in the old codex and is taken away in the new one.

Worsle, Worsle, Worsle. You seem incapable of understanding the viewpoint of a long time Dark Angel player. You keep up a non-stop litany of "Dark Angels are Ravenwing and Deathwing. Nothing more." But that's not the way we used to be. We used to be Ravenwing, Deathwing, and stubborn, immovable sonsabitches. We aren't now, that is called a nerf. And players usually don't like being nerfed, esp. when it doesn't seem necessary.

Again, let me reiterate this for emphasis because most non-DA players can't seem to get this through their heads. In the fluff, DAs are organizationally codex. But psychologically they are NOT, and that used to be represented. Now it isn't.

We thought we were going to get something in return for intractable and stubborn. We thought we were getting combat squads, BPs and company vets. But now we find that these are going to be universal to SM chapters. And in fact in the case of the vets, our version is actually inferior, with fewer options.

I'm not happy, the OP isn't happy, and many other long time DAs aren't happy either.

PS- about Fearless. In anticipation of your comments that stubborn was replaced with fearless, thinking this is a buff is inaccurate. Yes, Fearless characters can now ignore pinning, but they lose the benefit of Fearless if they join a unit. Stubborn is conferred on any unit a character joins, Fearless is not, and is in fact lost if the IC joins a non-Fearless unit. So overall, Stubborn was better for the DAs, esp. considering easy access to Ld10 with a Master for the odd pinning test. Another nerf for the DA army list.

To explain with complete clarity, if Azrael joins a tac or dev squad to give them the benefit of the 4+ inv, and they fail a morale test and flee off the table, Azrael goes with them. So much for Fearless.

[Zambayoshi]

Even though I am a DA player from way back, I'll play devil's advocate and say "incendiary castellans"... ;-) Apparently the Mortis dread is still playable through the Imperial Armour books (although with opponent's consent?)

Otherwise, I agree whole-heartedly with FerociousBeast that we are feeling gipped out of what we thought were special DA characteristics. Of course, GW has done an excellent marketing job on us...

Bringing me to my final point: for every person out there who loves BA for the fluff, there are others who will love BA because of their new, shiny coolness. GW has to make each new "codex" look cooler and better than the last because otherwise people will say "BA? But DA are so much better!"

AND BRING BACK ASMODAI!!!

[FerociousBeast]

The Blood Angels get incendiary castellans.

[Enochian]

DA are awesome and not at all to be compared to any other marine army. Very powerful army thats well rounded. Compareing any two marine armies at this point is just not even worth discussion. There differant but no less powerful.

[Wolfwood]

What do you mean, "Vehicles that they can assault out of"? The Assault Vehicle ability only applies to Land Raiders.

[Dark Angel N00b]

DA are awesome and not at all to be compared to any other marine army. Very powerful army thats well rounded. Compareing any two marine armies at this point is just not even worth discussion. There differant but no less powerful.

Thats what people are getting at though, DA are no longer different and awesome, because BA are DA with extras!

[Enochian]

BA are there own deal. Of course as MOST space marine armies they have a similar feel but you still cant touch the first turn deepstike and the ravenwing telport homers, thats nasty. And i dont se any BA able to take that.

[Worsle]

Chapter master fleeing of the table? That would be your own fault. Fearless is basiclly the same rule that the death wing had back in the second edition, independent charicters can also do wonderful things like shadow units if you need to and frankly what I remember of intractable was a stupid rule that was just added in for no good reason. DA are a codex chapter this is not way of avoiding this, you can stick your fingers in your ears and tell yours self you are not but that does not change how it works. A space marine is a space marine is a space marine it is as simple as that.

Veterans have fewer options? Other than the jump packs they the BA have to have as that is one of the few things that makes them special what are they not getting? The option list looked nearly identical other than I don't remember BA getting an option to take a bolter with all of them and the tech adept is only in the list because they are not getting new models.

BA are defined by having veteran assault squads, the baal and the black rage. DA are defined by their first and second companies. After that they are all space marines and there is no massive psychological or physical gap between them that would turn into furious charge or intractable.

[Enochian]

Dont forget the furioso Worsle. I do like the idea of taking a deathcompany, venerable, furioso dreadnought. Expensive but definatly fluffy and cool.

You got it marines are marines are marines man. Each one has its own trait thats unique.
Templar roll up faster on you as you kill them (nasty) DA can deepstrike on turn one and have teleport homers on fast vehicles as standard again nasty. And BA now have assault squads as troops. They all have at least one very impresive character and they all are powerful when used they way they were meant to be used.

[coolmandool]

whoops... read the rumour as that BA could assault out of any vehicles - eg. rhinos - I guess that's not right.

Yes DA have Deathwing assault and bikes can scout (is this confirmed as a ravenwing only thing???) and this CAN confer a tactical advantage in certain situations -
Terminators are expensive and deepstriking often means a sacrificial squad... (and since I only have 1 asscan now, my hopes of ripping through all opposition on my drop are even less) - anyway, that's not what peeves me.

When I look at the BA advantage, it just seems that much more concrete and effective than the DA advantages. Death Company, Baal Predator, the most hardcore marine in the universe! PLUS their bikes and speeders are more versatile than Ravenwing! They don't need to take normal bikes to take attacks, they can take two asscans with their speeders.... wait up... that doesn't make sense! Ravenwing are meant to be one of feared fast attack forces of the galaxy... but they're now less flexible and arguably worse than the assault marine chapter???

Fluff-wise, (apart from Ravenwing) I guess the current DA advantage is pretty accurate - DA being known for their sobre tactical approach to battles rather than being ridiculously fighty or shooty - hence advantages in deployment and holding fast rather than big guns and knives.

Nevertheless, as a DA player, Deathwing assault or not, it seems like the new list doesn't have as much flavour as the old lists. Moreover, most of my army is power armour which means there is even LESS flavour!

[Enochian]

The thing i do that most players dont is look at what the special characters add also. Mephiston is good in his own right and dante. But Azrael now hes nasty. Take any good vet squad or honour gaurd and add him its almost if not as good as the single unit of dc that you practically have to put a chaplain with. Da rhinos are cheaper, The fact that super charged engines makes ba rhinos higher cost and really am i going to use that ability? No as a tourney player rolling my rhinos up (at least in turn one) 18" only means it will get assaulted that turn. And the fact they have a chance of not being able to move. I doubt im going to use it much.
still stuck with mandatory chaplain and still have a smaller higher priced army than DA to make it affective. Really there good but no better than any others.

[Vinlandr]

I guess to sum up, or at least add to the general DA players point of view, it seems that defining features of what made the chapter what it is are being taken away. For example. do you guys remember when plasma cannons were only available in DA tactical squads? Now they are a universal characteristic. Combat squads were ours then we find out that the BA get them, not a big deal, but then all marines can do this now. Mortis should have been added to the codex, because whether we like it or not we are (or were) viewed as a shooty army while the BA were assault oriented. Mortis would have been DA's answer to Furioso.

[Zambayoshi]

BA get incendiary castellans!?! Oh man, that is "£&^%£*"! On page 33 of DA codex it is made to sound as though DA use this "special" variant... SHAME GW, SHAME !!!

Another point, DA can't min/max tac squads anymore either. Hope to heck that BA has the same restriction at least!

[Worsle]

If you mean combat squads some thing that is meant to be one of the most defining features of a codex chapter, then yes they do have them. Vinlandr the very idea that combat squads are unique to the DA flies in the face of all the fluff we have, and DA where never meant to be shooty plasma fetishists.

[FerociousBeast]

"Templar roll up faster on you as you kill them (nasty) DA can deepstrike on turn one and have teleport homers on fast vehicles as standard again nasty. And BA now have assault squads as troops."

Fantastic job, Enochian, of summing up the armies as they currently exist. Really, truly, well done. However that doesn't have a damn thing to do with what we're talking about. You and Worsle are making the assumption that the way things are now is the way things always have been. Simply. Wrong. Furthermore, Enochian, if you would take the time to read my first post in this thread, you'll see that your first post is wrong as well. The BAs can do almost EVERYTHING DAs can do except Deathwing Assault and Ravenwing Scout. And they can do much more as well.

When one person has ten tools in his toolbox and another person has every one of those same tools but one (because RW Scout and DW Assault really work best together) and also has 5 more different tools, we would say that Handyman #2 is better equipped for the task at hand. In this case the task at hand is winning battles. And Handyman #2 is the Blood Angels.

Lads and gents, we DAs are suddenly obsolete. Unless we want a Terminator army. Heck, even then we may as well be playing Lysanderwing. All dropping at once is arguably better than half on turn 1. And if you want Ravenwing, you can still do more with the White Scars.

[Worsle]

Do more with the white scars? The white scars rules are terible and most white scar players I have heard from have swapped to the ravenwing rules as then they can represent their chapter a lot better.

DA are not that special that is how it goes, you can complain all you like but short of adding in a whole bunch of rules and adding in some random fluff to give it justification like they did for intractable. What the DA have that no one else is getting fearless terminators and bikes, deathwing assault, TH on bikes, S4 shotguns, terminators as troops and bikes as troops.

[nareik123]

I personally thinked they nerfed the DA codex. Some guys in games workshop agree with me as well. Firstly, scouts. They have completely mucked up the scout entry. You can take scouts or terminators. Why the recruits are less common then the actual fighters is beyond me. Make scouts Troops choices!

Next of all, why is a marine 3 extra points? I have only glanced over the DA codex, but i believe that the DA marine is equal to the regular marine unlease i missed some of their rules.

Also, the new layout is stupid. In order to choose the unit, you have to find the entry, then flick to it's special rules section, then flick back to the unit entry, then flick to find the weapon rules. Then watch as in an 1,000pt game your overpriced 10 man tac squad does little more than an 8 man normal marine tac squad or you're 5 man tac squad just dies. I'm not saying the squads are useless, just that you can only take 5/10 men, nothing in between.

Next of all, you're all raving on how Terminators are troops choices. They are, if you fork out the large points needed to buy the character required to make them troops. Then maybe you can invest in some scouts. Truth be told, despite the better shotguns, the scouts won't survive longer than one shooting phase if they can fire.

[/rant]

[Worsle]

There is 1 scout company of about 100 men though it is never held to an exact number, there are then 9 other companies of normal marines so scouts are rare (oddly enough about as rare as terminators) and it always has been this way just like squads of 10 has always been the way more space marines armies should be. Marines do not cost any more in the DA codex either they do come with a veteran sargent built in, then they get grenades for free. The new lay out is not the back you have the in-depth rules that tell you what every thing does then at the back of the codex you have the numbers for a simple a quick way of making a list. You do not have to fork out a lot of points for terminators as troops, Belial is well priced for what you get. Oh and this may shock you but other armies survive with out T4 +3Sv marines, T4 and +4Sv is still much better than what a lot of armies get.

If you are going to rant get your facts straight first.

[Full_ork]

The fact is the DA are as special as every other closely codex chapter and that is how they always have been. In reality they should nor have got a book to them selves but because of the forces of history and the fact space marines make money.

Actually them being seperate has been a huge part of the game. Since second they had their own book I believe. THe only one which didn't have it's own book as a full codex to itself was black templars.

[Worsle]

That is what the force of history is, though in the second edition they shared a book with the BAs. Black templars are one of the few space marine armies that are diffrent enough for a seperate book, space wolfs being the other one that has a truly diffrent organisation.

[Full_ork]

Ah ok, I knew they were seperate from the Ultramarine one.

Still, it proves that there's more to them then "Just being seperate to make more money". They have been seperate from the ultramarine/vanella book long enough to qualify as something different. Maby now with their changes they are closer to a codex chapter, but that's just their recent incarnation, every other one has been seperate from the main book's chapters.

However the black templars, while made different, never had their own solo book before, and could be looked at as how you described the DA, just another book to make more money.

[Worsle]

The fact is the DA are as special as every other closely codex chapter and that is how they always have been. In reality they should nor have got a book to them selves but because of the forces of history and the fact space marines make money.

Money was not the only reason I listed remember? =P While the BT did get their own book because they where so popular (ie money) they are diffrent enough in charicter to deserve their own book. There very diffrent squad structure among other things... though it would have been nice if the crusader had been just for them.

[Full_ork]

Ah ok, so basicly I'm reiterating what you already said thinking your saying they don't deserve their own book, causing me to defend them with what you already said.

[Zambayoshi]

I think the new DA codex was worth it just so we can use the AWESOME new mini for Master Sammael on Jetbike! (or on landspeeder). Let's see BA with an armour 14 landspeeder...

I agree that Lysander's Wing is probably a lot harder than DW Assault, also because you can (apparently) put 2x heavy weapons in a termie squad instead of 1x for DW.

All the extra fluff and painting-related stuff in the new DA codex make it worth buying in my book, but on balance, I would agree that DA do not really merit a separate codex to vanilla C:SM, since the special rules and chars for DA could be done in a couple of pages.

[W0lf]

do you guys remember when plasma cannons were only available in DA tactical squads? Now they are a universal characteristic.

I miss that rule so much :'(

i also love running 8 man tac squads..

however my fav thing about DA is the fluff and robes which we still keep, plus i win more then i lose and its so much more rewarding to win with a balanced DA list then to win with some cheesey army where everything dies exept a big 500-700 pts unit with a character *COUGH,Deathcompany,COUGH*

[Fake Sinatra]

Here's why DA are good (it has nothing to do with the Ravenwing or Deathwing.)

Your HQ is a Company Master who comes with an Iron Halo. He foot slogs with a 5 man command squad with an additional power weapon and a power fist.

Now Let's talk Heavy Support. About 630 points gets you 2 Dev squads with Plasma Cannons and a Dakka Predator. That also happens to be 5 scoring units worth a little more than 100 points per. That predator will SOAK up fire. The Plasma Cannons, if deployed in cover, are rock solid. This is where the Dark Angels are nasty. Those Devs will dominate every firing lane on the board.

Then you add in 4 squads of tactical marines. 8 more scoring units. Lascannons and Power Fists in the squads. The Lascannons sit back and the Power Fists foot slog. There are still points left over for scouts or assault marines depending on whether you took the command squad.

Lots of marines (60+) lots of guns, lots of scoring units.

[W0lf]

and every other space marine army can do the same but in units of 8 with more flexibility and a better commander + terminator command squad.

as of current our best bonus is that we get grenades and a bolt pistol free. How long before every space marine army has that? Chaos are already rumoured to be getting better.

[Worsle]

Bo freaking ho. Chaos has its own down sides like no ATSKNF and SMs will get grenades with combat squads so they will all have to run space marines like space marines are meant to be run. Squads of 10 are how it works and when you have the best basic infantry in the game than is capable of filling a verity of roles it is hard to fell sorry for you when you get a real down side to it. That and make up your mind on what you are complaining about on the one hand you are complaining that space marines can come in groups of 8 and on the other it is a terible thing that they are going to be made like yours.

[coolmandool]

To be honest, I don't think people are complaining about the loss of min/max. Sure AT THE MOMENT, DA are getting the shaft with min/max, but eventually, the BA thing has shown all marines will only have a lascannon if you have ten guys.

But I think it's absurd that people are saying that DA have nothing to be pissed off about, especially now we know what other marine chapters can expect. We are talking about this from a MARINE perspective - even tho all marines have 4's in their stat lines, that doesn't mean they are all the same. More precisely we are talking about FLEXIBILITY of the list and EFFECTIVENESS relative to points value vis a vis other marine lists (or more directly the new BA list)

I agree with Ferocious Beast on this one (altho I am biased, I won't lie...). But let's go thru a quick BA and DA comparison going through the Force Org

HQ - Non specials are much of the same except DA Librarians are much less useful than BA. Why do you take a librarian? Well, most of the monstrous creature threads here and elsewhere suggest, one KEY reason libs are there is to take down big nasties with their force weapon. DA libs can save a single wound during their turn and have an unreliable version of winds of chaos. BA libs have free jump packs (wings) and might of heros- perfect for force weaponing your favourite daemon prince. BA wins.

Elites - DA vets can't jump pack - only footslog. BA can jump pack or footslog. Vets are for assault, noone is going to shoot with their 2 attack vets unless they like wasting points - this is NOT just a fluffy BA concept, it is called common sense. jumppacks help folks get into assault.
Deathwing can Deathwing assault. This can be useful but it is really not as great as everyone seems to think it is. Terms aren't that durable and you are essentially suiciding a 200+ point unit on TURN 1.
I will be conservative and say this section is a tie... but I think Deathwing assault is overrated
PS. BA get furioso dreadnought which is a cool idea, but I don't think is very effective as dreads are SLOW...

Troops - BA can take assault as troops. which is a REAL advantage as it frees you up for tank hunting bikes or speeders. ie. more flexibility if you really want it. They can do this with ANY HQ choice.
DA can take Terminators and bikes as troops. Seriously. both these units are super expensive and in a balanced army you're not going to exceed the force org with these units. Taking all bikes and Terms is a NOVELTY and fun, but probably isn't going to win you a battle. Plus you're forced to take Belial or Sammael. Man, would it have been that hard to give Belial an extra wound or a S6 sword... anyway, that's another story...
Again BA win on flexibility

Heavy Support - BA section is identical to DA only, BA get Baal Predator. More flexible. BA wins

Fast Attack - Hohohohoho. Sammael here! Ravenwing are one of the most feared and elite fast attack forces in the galaxy. Unlike other lamer chapters, we at the Ravenwing believe in a convoluted bike squadron structure that forces you to sink points in bolter bikes if you want an attack bike AT ALL! PLUS don't tell anyone but I stole the second asscan from all our landspeeder squadrons - but it's cool - coz I HAVE A TWINLINKED ASSCAN LANDSPEEDER NOW! w0000t.....

Facetiousness aside, Scout is a nice rule. Better than Deathwing assault i think, and the teleport homer is nice. But holy cow, anyone who has tried to make a list with ravenwing will tell you that it is NOT flexible and it is a massive points sink. At the end of the day, I still think BA are better because their fast attack is flat out shootier. Plus, they don't have to have assault troops here.
BA wins.

Oh wait... DA get cheap Razorbacks! LOL....

Seriously, is this comparison not valid? I think it shows pretty clearly how the DA list is deficient flexibility wise compared to the new BA list.

[FerociousBeast]

I concur. But a couple quick notes. BA libbies (except Meph.) can't use Might and force sword in the same player turn, and the BA get cheap Razorbacks too.

Another thing. Since you can no longer buy teleport homers, if you want to have that turn 1 deep strike drop with any kind of reliability, you HAVE to have Ravenwing as well. Like you said, a point sink. I mean, for God's sake, one of the biggest fluff stories the DAs have is Sgt. Naaman bringing a teleporting squad of terminators in to destroy an ork tellyporta. And now Scouts can't have teleport homers? Bah.

What we have that BA doesn't have: Deathwing Assault, terminators and Ravenwing as troops, RW scouts
What BA has that we don't have: Furioso (where's Mortis?), Death Company, jump pack veterans, Baal pred, 5 SHQs (where's Asmodai?), Assault Squads as troops, super charged engines

We've been nerfed, and no matter how much anyone wants to troll and say to the contrary, it's simply true.

[Worsle]

You missed out the S4 shotguns and mixed weapons on terminators.

Asmodai would be the same place your interrogator chaplain model is, given Tycho does not count as a real option and the interrogator chaplain is better of than Lemartes any way with a set of options of how you want to be. The DA librarian is much better than the BA one with the ablity to take a jump pack so you can move fast with out using up your only power for the turn, and the fact that might of heroes and wings are mutually exclusive with each other and the force sword. Hellfire is a much better power giving you on average a heavy flamer with a 50% chance of being ap3.

You are all ignoring all the down sides to the BAs too. There basic squads are 25 points more than yours to pay for the death company if they like it or not, 15 for assault squads and devastators too. Super charged engines add to the base cost of both the rhino and the baal (witch can not have EA btw) only work half the time and can brake down leaving the tank sitting there. Assault squads are troops because why else would any one take them with the veteran assault squads about? Those veterain squads must be fielded with jump packs and I think think they have any option of a bolter, though assault squad veterans are a BA thing (DA vets teliport in wearing tactical dreadnought armour) only other chapter that is known to make use of some thing like that is the raven guard.

Also you can't nerf an army by giving other people stuff that is not how things work. People are also aloud to have a diffrent opinion to you.

Coolmandool the one thing I do agree on is that BA land speeder squads should not be able to 2 asscannons per squad. From what I understand of the list is it will be in circulation for 2 years at least. Guess it will depend slightly on how popular this list is and how much GW gets withdrawals for not making marines every 5 minutes.

[coolmandool]

True, Blood Angels do have downsides as well. And yeah, it's not great to have more expensive squads...

I disagree with the Worsle's take on the DA librarian - my experience with Hellfire has not been particularly good and force barrier being a single wound save that negates your force weapon or Hellfire use is a dubious power at best.

Oh and DA only have 3 special characters. Bethor doesn't have special stats like Corbulo.

Having the option of fielding troop assaults is not a bad option. They are still effective even if they are not vets. PLUS it frees up fast attack for bikes and speeders. I guess my point is that this is still a legit strategy. With DA, their "special" troops are bound by HQ choices and noone in their right mind would take masses of bike troops or a billion termi squads.

But I guess the major gripe is that to take adantage of the Dark Angels special benefits, you basically HAVE to structure the army in a certain way - ie. sink points into a super expensive ravenwing detachment and a bunch of Deathwing Terminators. Yes, Deathwing are more flexible than standard Terminators, in that they can mix weapons, but the pertinent question is whether mixing weapons is effective. If you're close enough when you deepstrike and are packing a heavy flamer, mixing weapons can be ok- but still on you're first turn ALL you can do is shoot...

If you don't play this way, you basically have a watered down standard marine army... which hurts... me anyway.

[Worsle]

Well not every one loves flamers I will admit that, personally I am a fan and a heavy flamer that cuts though power armour? Yes that is some thing I would consider very good, sure it can go very wrong on you but it has just as much chance of going very right so you might want to play with it a bit more. Though if flamers are not your thing, I guess that is how it goes.

Yes I guess Belial might as well cont as part of the master really but he is much better then Tycho (he does not have a power weapon or an extra attack) so he is almost a negative charicter and if I where in a picky mood I could say Samuel counts as two HQs.

Yes the double wing is rather expencive though the rapid redeployment of the ravenwing does make them a rather intresting thing in my perspective. oTher than that you are at the fore front of new marine codexs, one way to look at is it wont hurt your wallet when the others catch up with you. That and it is still unfare to do a direct match up of BA and DA with out taking into acount things like the extra cost to the basic squads.

[Zambayoshi]

I think our main gripe is that we were essentially duped (by GW store employees - at least I was) into believing that DA were having all these changes, which were unique to DA. Now the BA list is out, we are feeling betrayed by the deceitfulness (or plain laziness) of GW in not giving BA the same treatment, but just using 90% of the DA changes.

I am not a tourney player, but it will be interesting to see how many "power" players (that is, those who don't give a crap about fluff) take the BA list over the DA list. I think that with the release of BA, DA suddenly seems MUCH less competitive. I guess the only way to find out is to have many DA v BA match-ups and see how it pans out.

[W0lf]

BAs have pratically everything Das have plus more. thats why we DA fans are pissed.

You missed out the S4 shotguns and mixed weapons on terminators.

id rather have non mixed termie where i can have 2 ass cannons on 1 unit. Oh and being able to have units bigger then 5 is also nice.

s4 shotguns.. lol.. just lol.

[Fannin]

What's wrong with s4 shotguns?

Hopefully they'll become standardized for everyone. My Imperial Guard melta/shotgun/PF veterans will LOVE s4 shotguns.

[Zambayoshi]

S4 shotguns are stupid for scouts, since a scout with a shotgun gets 2 shots before assaulting but 1 less attack in CC. A scout with a bolt pistol and CC weapon gets 1 shot before assaulting then 2 attacks. Much better if the combat goes for more than 1 turn. The only conceivable way the S4 shotgun pays off is if the scouts are lurking in cover ALL the time, but 12" or less from the enemy, so as to shoot them up! (although, a bolter would be better in this case, since the range is longer). Sigh...

Terminators, yes, not being able to have 2 assault cannons in a squad really bites, and mixed weaponry... who even does that? The most I would do is put a cyclone on a CC squad, because you can still have the twin LCs. Still, this is probably a waste of points seing as you want to be in CC with a CC squad, not taking pot shots with a missile launcher.

[DoomKnights]

I have my squads all with one Thunder hammer, just in case they fight something that needs to be taken down in more the one turn. It helps a great deal.

[Enochian]

Zambayoshi thats foolish. Two strength four shots hit on threes wound on fours, one cc attack hits on four wounds on four. Any questions?

Hmm let me see everyone (marine) is going to have 5 or 10 man squads very soon.
Dark angels can deepstrike on turn one and be in cc with there ravenwing on turn one. Ba at best is going to be in cc on turn 2. da have good characters and so do ba, da have cool whirlwind rounds and ba dont. Im not seeing anything other than very specialized things (that both armies have) thats to differant?
i can take rhinos for less points than the ba can for a sucky upgrade. I can take terminators and ravenwing as troops if i want and ba get assault squads only... still not seeing to much here that really makes things differant to any extreme.
Ba are MADE to be good in cc and da are made to be good at tactical, if you dont like the way they play than play wolves or blood angels.

[W0lf]

or templars? or vanilla marines? :P

and s4 shotguns would be awesome for ig armies, in a sm army they are however nothing special.

Zambayoshi thats foolish. Two strength four shots hit on threes wound on fours, one cc attack hits on four wounds on four. Any questions?

since a scout with a shotgun gets 2 shots before assaulting but 1 less attack in CC. A scout with a bolt pistol and CC weapon gets 1 shot before assaulting then 2 attacks. Much better if the combat goes for more than 1 turn.

he actually has a good point.

[Fannin]

Yeah, he does... if you're marines. Bolt pistols are a lot better than even s4 shotguns for scouts.

I'm just saying that compared to laspistols, even the s3 shotgun wins out for a melee unit of veterans.

[W0lf]

Give guard s4 shotguns for all i care XD

i play marines and tau, s4 or 5 basic all the way :P

anyway back on topic:

i just feel the combat squad system was done wrongly. It should be as it is now however when splitting the squad into 2 you should be able to choose how many go into group 1 and 2. example

10 marines, vet serg with PF, marine with plasma gun, marine with lascannon.

In an ideal world id split them into a 7 (serg + assault weapon) then a 3 (heavy weapon and 2 guys)

the idea is good but in practice 5 man units moving forward with a assault weapon and rapid firing boltguns really arnt that flexible.

[Zarathustrian]

Well, I have played a few games with the new DA codes(and against it), and those 5 man squads with fist serg are fragile. And you wont have many heavy weapons on your list. Best way for getting them is throught devastators and veterans.

And your model count will be low.

[Enochian]

Take ten man squads. Utilize two units together instead of one five man unit, you get an extra powerweapon and are that much more versatile.