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DC 1.2 Daemon Prince Fixes + and a gentlemanly, controlled discussion of chaos t3

  1. #1

    DC 1.2 Daemon Prince Fixes + and a gentlemanly, controlled discussion of chaos t3

    Yeah the dp is somewhat out of whack. He's pretty good, depsite costing what he costs. For this discussion, assume the DP is spawned from a near dead chaos lord for max efficiency.

    If you watch the dp fight, it becomes clear to you that his disruption is incredible. I've seen special attacks of AOE 15 in approximation. Literally whole hordes of armies go flying in the air. Insane. It particularly bothers me in chaos mirrors when the DP is all the opponent has left and yet possessed+oblits+csms+the kitchen sink still can't kill him cause of his disruption. He's pretty close to being what he should be, but just needs some minor tweaks to finish the job.

    1)lower the firing rate on dps special attacks except for one special one which is just right (the one where he breathes like fire into his hand than swings it in a circle. that one has just the rate aoe and timing)

    2)lower HP by 1000. restore the 1000 hp with daemon strength upgrade (meaning even if he's at 1 hp when the upgrade is done, 1000+hp is added to both current and max HP).

    Or possibly change armor to commander and give 3500 HP. This however would make the dp a fairly good monster high/vehicle high counter and currently he is not.

    3)shorten daemon strength upgrade by 20 seconds. Currently is 80 secs tieing it for first on the longest non hq/tier upgrade*, falling behind those by anywhere to 10-20 seconds. but is an ability that affects just one unit. 80 secs is really really long. Not to mention its jammed in a building that has several more prevalent upgrades before it and only affects one unit. 60 seconds makes more sense.

    anyway, the suggestions are reasonable and merely tweak him rather than rewrite the whole vid game engine. though I'm sure this will get out of hand very quickly with people asking to shrink him to a midgets size and some asking to give him a and iron man type uber proton cannon.

    but the problem is clear. if the dp used his sword more often than he used his special attacks, he's be ok, but his special attacks keep things from fighting back which is where you run into real trouble. Its the special attacks that say, keep your ogryns and your FC and your possessed from being able to fight him straight up. I say this because I've killed many a greater knarloc with my chaos lord and my sorcerer alone simply because the knarloc seems to lack any real disruptive special attacks and so my chaos lord and sorcerer can easily trade blows and bring it down to size. Thats the logic. Make the DP more of a lesser knarloc essentially.

    *can you guess what the other one is?
    Last edited by SubakuGaara; 6th Jun 07 at 10:06 AM.
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  2. #2
    Yea, unless you are SM or in t4 the DP is a real bitch to deal with...

    1) Agreed, although the end result might be a buff to his damage since he's not damaging units that are on their ass, and he doesn't need a damage buff to infantry.
    2) The 1000 hp is an interesting idea; the 3500 commander armor is not. I personally think that his HPs should scale with the commander veteran upgrades. The main reason that he's not a good monster/vehicle high counter is that he does far less damage than the stock CL to those armor types.
    3) Yea, an 80 second research for a 1-person ability is really long. Whenever I play chaos I rarely get around to that upgrade, personally...between PSMs, Daemon Fire, Chains, and commander upgrades, getting the aura and daemon strength upgrades take a back seat.
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  3. #3
    LaNeTH
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    All I can say about DP is poor Eldar
    And agreed with initial post mostly.

    Iron man proton cannon sounds good too.

  4. #4
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    Agree with the changes, the armour tweak may help IG take him out, with Assassin having less HP to deal with.

  5. #5
    Counts as Mephiston Fixer's Avatar
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    All I can say about DP is poor Eldar
    The DP is a bitch to deal with, yes... but the Eldar do have one good way to deal with him. Shuriken Platform + BL Platform + Seer council + attached farseer.

    Mr DP will be slowed down by the Shuriplat, will take 75% more damage from the BL plat effect.

    A little expensive, but it'll bring down the Demo Prince for cost.

    The problem is the other stuff chaos has to play around with in tier 3.
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  6. #6
    Would this be the same DP that everyone was crying out for a big buff on, in 1.1 by anychance?

  7. #7

  8. #8
    actually in 1.1 nobody was calling for a buff. they were calling for a price reduction. somehow he got buffed anyway, which imo was uncalled for. the dp i describe in my description is the dp of 1.1... with the patch they boosted his special attacks, I believe by increasing the AOE. In 1.1 my dp would be swarmed and he coudn't tell guys to get off him. now he literally throws whole armies around. I do think he needs to have the special attacks toned down a bit.

    servant though says he's fine... I dunno. I'm a chaos player after all and many a time the dp has been a game breaker... then again even more often he's just icing on the cake. servant care to elaborate a bit more on why he's fine as is?

  9. #9
    Demon Prince still can use a collition size reduction...
    It is needed for team games. Won't effect much on 1v1 games though.

  10. #10
    Luren
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    I'm gonna go completely against the thread and say that the DPs health needs increasing. His toughness is pathetic for a Dæmon, and it makes me very sad.

  11. #11
    He's not that bad, even for cost.

    T3 unit with 5000 HP, solid regeneration, lots of AoEs and killsyncs, pseudo-detection in a fast-techable T3, where there are few counters to him?

    As a Chaos player I agree with Subaku on the changes.

  12. #12
    Micro102
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    i think it should be like the NL/nightbringer where the % of health the CL has = the % health the DP has

  13. #13
    Except the Nightbringer is INVINCIBLE. Kinda makes a differences doesn't it?

  14. #14
    Micro102
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    yeh but nightbringer is only temporary and DP does far greater damage. at least 9 times more and has an ability that breaks everything.

  15. #15
    LOL? 9x as much damage? Where the hell are you getting these numbers?

  16. #16
    Nuffle's Bitch Integrity's Avatar
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    Only one I disagree with in the Daemon armor change...but that's only because Daemon armor is too underused now. What's daemon_med now? Krootox?
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  17. #17

  18. The Studio Senior Member Dawn of War Senior Member  #18
    the only minus that daemon armor has
    is that GKs rape it
    see no point in armor change
    other than making it damn endurable
    Last edited by Hiroshi_Tea; 2nd Jun 07 at 7:22 PM.

  19. #19
    If the armor is changed from daemon high to commander then he´s gonna be impossible to kill with SM. Right now, the heros and the GK are what can be used against him, and they have lower dps against commander armor.

  20. #20
    Luren
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    I do believe the fluffy idea of the Dæmon Prince is that he is ipossible to kill, desocupado.

  21. #21
    Member The_Guardman's Avatar
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    And Horrors.
    IIRC, they was changed to Inf_Heavy in the last patch. Funny thing, the GK now have more problem at killing them than a Krootox (only Monster_Med remaining).
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  22. #22
    Senior Member Chris's Avatar
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    If the armor is changed from daemon high to commander then he´s gonna be impossible to kill with SM.
    GKs own commanders. Not as much as they own deamons, but their commander damage is still way above average. Also there isn't a single marine unit besides scouts that doesn't deal decent damage to commander armour.
    Chriss is that IG hater he wanted them to nerf everything about igs

  23. #23
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    Plus AT stun > big single units

  24. #24
    Horrors had there armour changed because Daemon med is roughly equivalent to inf heavy high, personally i think relic should have just reduced the HP rather than downgrade the armour class, as it looks a bit silly to have a monster unit, not actually having monster armour....

  25. #25
    Just something to add... is it possible to make CLord's price increased after DP research finished ?
    So if a DP got killed, Chaos player can spawn a DP from barrack without the need to make a CLord and then research DP again.

  26. #26
    Personally, I like the horrors having heavy_high armour rather than daemon armour. GK's don't own them as badly now. Didn't horrors also get an hp buff as compensation for the armour change? Or am I imagining that?

    As for changing the DP's armour to commander.... I dunno.... Don't really see the point to this....

  27. #27
    Micro102
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    LOL? 9x as much damage? Where the hell are you getting these numbers?
    whoops lol, looked at night bringers ranged damage instead of melle damage

  28. #28
    Also there isn't a single marine unit besides scouts that doesn't deal decent damage to commander armour

    Cultists can't deal enough damage to commanders to override most commanders basic regen. Sad really...

    the point is most units can fight commanders decently. they can't fight monster high decently. For example, chaos marines do about 7 dps in melee to commanders but only 3 dps in melee to monster high.

  29. #29
    There armour is not heavy high, it's heavy med, the reason it changed i am speculating is the bal team felt heavy high, which is more or less what daemon med is equivalent to was to tough, a armour type, hence the change down to heavy med

    I doubt GK had anything to do with it, horrors are rubish in cc pretty much any unit can beat them

  30. #30
    Road-kill
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    I do believe the fluffy idea of the Dæmon Prince is that he is ipossible to kill, desocupado.
    And the Ig's Baneblade should mop the floor with an entire enemy army on it's own, but you don't see that happening, do you?

    In terms of combat effectiveness, I agree with the 'spams the disruptions too much' thing, though for a different reason-I want him to chop things up, not play golf with them.

  31. #31
    Lol you havent seen it happening ? try take out the Baneblade as Orks

  32. #32
    Vytae
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    Lol you havent seen it happening ? try take out the Baneblade as Orks
    Against free slugga's sure maybe. However,with a squad or two of nobs simply to keep the Command squad busy while infiltrated TB blow the BB away. I have to admit,my heart grows all warm and fuzzy with i run into a large batch of sluggas with no TB around with my BB and karskin.

  33. #33
    free sluggas is the bane of the daemon prince.

  34. #34
    Road-kill
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    It's the bane of anything. I've stalled entire Necron armies with ma boyz, until the looted tanks and nobz are up and running. =3

  35. #35
    The DP looks good when he smacks them for 6. Kinda reminds me of Sauron.

    If you want him to keeo the same % hp when he changes, you will need to reduce his price. Say 200/200. I would support this. Makes it seem more realistic. However, if you want to not make him redundant on a low HP chaos lord I suggest this:

    Daemon prince HP: 2000+3000*%of lords current HP.

    Keep his armour class, its an important feature of him.

    Also, dont ya think he should have higher AV damage.
    in connection with.
    Sure lose some of the AoE/put them on a longer timer.

    Also, whats with the tain of buildings not affecting him. Fix that plz. Ill pay for it.

  36. #36
    Yes, it's over there. SirNick's Avatar
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    Also, whats with the taint of buildings not affecting him. Fix that plz. Ill pay for it.
    Of course you would. It'd be ridiculously broken. Very, very good reason that it doesn't exist.

    Demon Prince already regenerates 4HP/second. Taint boosts healing by 4x; that means that DP would be regenerating 16HP/second of monster_high.

    And we thought Chaplain 16x heal was unstoppable.

  37. #37
    Banned nichtganz's Avatar
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    The DP is not that big of a deal, i mean he was entirely unusable with game release, and now apparently he is too good. I think he is just fine if he recieves any nerfs, he will need buffs to compensate.

    Note: as he already is a balanced unit.

  38. #38
    Quite rightly, the taint only doubes hero regen, so it would be 8hp/sec.

    Now lets casestudy the FC. At T3, he has 2675 hp and 4hp regen a sec. Doubled with both apothecary and chaplain. That is 16 hp a sec. not only that but I was suggesting 8hp/sec regen of monster high armour, he regens 16hp/sec of COMMNDER armour. Thats big.
    Heck the librarian only has 2000 hp and he can have the same regen. thats from 1 hp to 2000 in 2 minutes. The DP takes 20 mins to fully regen. Im suggesting it should be more like 10min when he is near to a chaos building.

  39. #39
    this may sound a bit dumb, but kind of creatyive idea IMO.

    Can Prince have a ranged attack, so he throws flame from his mouth like possessed, it would be an upgrade like possessed too..

    Yeah and I agree that prince should be affected by building taint.
    Last edited by optimal_prism; 6th Jun 07 at 9:04 AM.

  40. #40
    ¯\(O_o)/¯¯\(o_O)/¯ santiago4ever's Avatar
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    Imo the DP is just fine the way it is. The things that are a bit out of whack is the PSM flamers (should break but not slaughter troops) and possibly oblits costefficiency though don't quote me on that one.
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  41. #41
    oh yeah oblits are totally cost efficient... well... actually I'd say more time efficient. You buy a 3 man squad, and 20 seconds later they are max strength. And while their max strength isn't as good as some other elites max strength, the fact that it comes so quickly is really really something. Though I'm not sure you can do much other than increasing reinforce time, or nerfing each oblit, but increasing squad size and decreasing cost per oblit to match.

    About the possessed, I don't really see the flamer slaughtering troops unless I'm using ranged. If you nerfed the damage (physical damage, not morale damage), I don't think anyone would notice all that much.

    btw, I'm opening up the thread to include chaos t3 in general. Please control yourself. No poop slinging ok!

  42. #42
    Micro102
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    the DP is bad enough, maybe even balanced. but when the chaos lord can fight until he is about to die, then bring up another stronger commander is too powerful for most ppl to handle. chaos T3 is the most powerful right now plus a demon that is close to the power of a relic unit. other races cant bea ttheir teir 3, so how are they going to beat teir 3 with DP?

  43. #43
    Banned nichtganz's Avatar
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    I dont find a problem with chaos tier 3, you just cant give up. I grow tired of playing online and people complaining is way too good, for christ sakes it's really not that difficult. I Always play random and everyone has answers (Althouh Tau has severe problems with stealth detection ).

  44. #44
    NateIG
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    Subaku, if the DP is spending so much time using disruptive attacks...unless some of them are extraordinarily damaging, isnt his dps pretty low too then against your commander just as your commander's is low against the DP? The end result should be the same, just take longer.

    I thought pretty much every race had 'something' that could stand up to demon armor these days, or at least hold it down long enough for other things to kill it, and I'd be afraid if he had commander armor because then he'd be an even more unstoppable monster - even one's own commanders wouldnt be effective against him, and that's the late game job of commanders, to counter ubers.

  45. #45
    the disruptive attacks have very wide aoes. even if they only do say 50 damage pershot, if all 14 of your flash gitz get hit (which I've seen happen. I have a replay vs ork in the anti ork pack/thread of xerxes where you can clearly see 2 full squads of gitz get sent up into the air with an aoe of approx 15) that is a lot of damage, more than he would with the sword and a lot faster. and trust me, the special attacks do more than 50 damage pershot.

    again, right, most races have decent counters to monster high. issue is a lot of those counters are commanders. the throw force of his attacks are quite considerable enough to disjar some commanders. if the commanders can't stand and fight him, they die. throw in things like daemon roar which breaks commanders and you have a real issue. but mostly its the fact that he has a lot of special attacks that seem to fire so often that bothers me. they basically make it impossible for commanders or other heavy melee units to fight with him.


    about the armor change, first thing, I'm not stuck on that idea. I just present it as a possible solution. If you change the armor to commander AND nerf the fire rate on his special attacks, what it means is that while commanders won't be able to kill him, everything else will. It means commander won't be doing 200+ dps to him, but closer to 64 dps. However it also means, for example, your t3 warp spiders won't be doing 1.7 dps to him anymore, but instead they'll be doing 17dps. Its a tradeoff but an interesting one to consider if tactfully done.

    Yeah, t3 ws with exarch do 1.7 dps to daemon prince.

  46. #46
    daemon fire, if micro'd properly is the end all of almost all weapons. you can keep dancing your PSM in and out of melee to keep a squad permabroke, all the while getting in basically free swings for massive damage.not even counting how quickly the PSM can close the distance with ranged fire.

    oblits by themselves are really pretty average, not so much game breaking in and of themselves, but combined with daemon fire and PSM, + leftover zerks/horrors, it can get ugly.

  47. #47
    Fraulzar Sowelo
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    Chaos

    Really having a hard time understanding what justifies all the calls for Chaos nerfs lately. The DC ladder shows Chaos with a solid 56% winning percentage. That is tied with Space Marines, 1% ahead of Eldar, and 2% behind Ork. Shouldn't these numbers paint a different story if Chaos is so shamefully overpowered and in dire need of a nerf?

    The power of the Chaos tier 3 infantry and the Demon Prince imo needs to be always be viewed in light of the sketchy Chaos vehicle situation. The infantry needs to be powerful given the limited vehicle choices in order for the race to be competitive. Yes, the whopping three vehicles all fill a role and are nice, but they don't have the ability to "lead the way" as some of the other races vehicles can and therefore the powerful infantry is necessary to take up the slack.

    In interests of full disclosure, yes, Chaos is my main race.

  48. Child's Play Donor Dawn of War Senior Member  #48
    Calculating Maktaka's Avatar
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    Chaos can get out PSM and Oblits very, very easily once they hit T3. PSM are incredibly powerful, and Oblits provide them with solid fire support. Once Chaos hits T3, it's usually gg. Their tiers 1 and 2 are pretty much fine, it's just their T3 that comes too easily with too much firepower.

    Check out the 3 matches between CAPN and Killer from the tourney. All three matches CAPN solidly held the upper hand moving into T3. All three matches Killer starts ripping things to shreds in T3 using only one squad of PSM and Oblits. Only one of them is CAPN able to actually push this back, and it required 3 full GM squads with plasma, a commissar, priests, a Chimera, and insane micro just to stop 2 infantry squads.

  49. #49
    but consider that killer is probably the best at the zerk tactica and less than capable players won't get that far. in addition, certain races t2 are more than equipped to handle chaos t3. eldar players that use wraithlords+ ranged infantry for example seem to really cause possessed and oblits a lot of trouble. i think the degree of difficulty varies, but overall I would agree that chaos t3 is quite strong simply because of how fast the troops deploy. I'd suggest time modifiers to reinforce times.

  50. #50
    i honestly think that chaos tacs should lose the tier 3 infiltration, and receive some sort of hp buff somewhere in tier 2, just to make them anywhere close to viable.

    and of course vehicles will give inf trouble, if you deepstrike horrors however its much less of a problem. while trying to keep their ranged near your PSM for daemon fire. and oblits firing.

    im confused at to what people find OP in chaos tier 3... in that it comes to fast, or the overall strength of the oblits +PSM? most races actually have viable strategies to counter 2 squad strategies <_<

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