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Shadows

  1. #1

    Shadows

    Shadows, especially with regards to ATI, seem to be coming up in a lot of different threads, so I thought I'd chime in give the full story: with the ATI 3.6 drivers we noticed a slight glitch when the ships change from the 2nd most detailed LOD to the most detailed when you zoom in and out. ATI has been made aware of the problem. Some people have figured out how to enable shadows with the 3.6 drivers and they could check this out themselves. It is kind of hard to see as it only happens for one frame and is easiest to reproduce in multiplayer games when you only have one ship around.

    So HW2 detects the 3.6 drivers and disables shadows simply so you don't see this glitch. If you enable shadows in the graphics settings screen with 3.6 or older drivers you don't get them because that option gets overridden. You do still get correct lighting which looks good, you just don't see a nice shadow from the corvette's gun casting on to itself.

    Since HW2 detects the driver version and disables features as needed if you have a newer driver than HW2 (eg the 3.7 ATI drivers) it doesn't know what bugs may exist so doesn't force any features off. So once you've upgraded to the 3.7 drivers turning shadows on will actually turn them on. If you don't like their stylized look or their performance hit then just turn them off. Shadows, especially self shadows like HW2 has, are a lot of extra work to compute which is why you don't see them in older games at all. I happen to really like watching a corvette squad fly around kicking ass with shadows enabled and will gladly take the performance hit. As the ships twist and turn and the shadow moves across them looks really nice is motion, way better than the screen shots imply.

    When the ships are rendered there are multiple render paths, including a path for DX9 level cards that support the OpenGL fragment program extension. There is not a unique one for the 9500+ and GeForceFX, they both render the same code. So if you were to trade your Radeon 9500 in for a 5900 you'd be disappointed to learn the shadows are the same.

    The shadows are a bit blocky on the larger ships like the mothership, but that is just their style. Enjoy them on your warrior ships while you go destroy your enemies

  2. #2
    protmind
    Guest
    oh, ok that explains why 3.6 seemed to work better, shadows were not enabled even though I thought they were. Checked them out with 3.7, and they are pretty, but quite a performance hit! For fun: 1600X1200 plus AA and AF AND shadows=1fps Guess I shoulnd't bee such a glutton and be happy with 1280x960, AA and AF. If I understand your post correctly, when (and if) ATI address the issue, that will only improve the "glitch", it won't address the amount of horsepower needed for shadows?

    thanks,

  3. #3
    Originally posted by protmind
    oh, ok that explains why 3.6 seemed to work better, shadows were not enabled even though I thought they were. Checked them out with 3.7, and they are pretty, but quite a performance hit! For fun: 1600X1200 plus AA and AF AND shadows=1fps Guess I shoulnd't bee such a glutton and be happy with 1280x960, AA and AF. If I understand your post correctly, when (and if) ATI address the issue, that will only improve the "glitch", it won't address the amount of horsepower needed for shadows?
    thanks,
    Yep, all ATI can do is address the glitch (which only happens for one frame anyway, IMHO hardly worth complaining about).

    Shadows will always require a lot of power, that's just the way things are.

  4. #4
    TopoGeigeo
    Guest
    Bah! that means if ATI is fixing the issue it won't be fixed until lthe next catalyzt release. So we can expect to be stuck with poor (if you can cal them poor..) shadows for atleast another month probably.

  5. #5
    Mehrunes
    Guest
    Originally posted by remy
    Shadows will always require a lot of power, that's just the way things are.
    Geforce3 through 5 offer hardware support for storing the shadow maps. Does HW2 take advantage of this?

  6. #6
    Motte
    Guest
    Originally posted by Mehrunes


    Geforce3 through 5 offer hardware support for storing the shadow maps. Does HW2 take advantage of this?
    Yes , that would explain the lack of shadows on GeForce and GeForce2.

  7. #7
    arrrse
    Guest
    Is it possible to get the ATI cards to run one of the different paths?
    Because the visual quality of the shadows is what I've seen people complain about not some 1 frame glitch.

    The shadows just look UGLY.

    And they leave gaps between the thing being shadowed and the start of the shadow.
    This is what bugs me the most actually.

    My understanding is that Radeons can do 'shadow buffer' but its called something else & uses one of the other general purpose type buffers?
    I've not heard of any developers actually implementing it though.

  8. #8
    Atmospheric Entry Elephant The5thElephant's Avatar
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    I don't think that the people at Relic who respond to this realize that there are obvious differences between the shadows on the MS with an ATI or a Geforce. With the Geforce they are very smooth and not blocky at all. On an ATI they are horrendous with huge jaggy triangles sticking all over the place and lines through them. I KNOW this is not how it is supposed to look because I have seen BEAUTIFUL screen shots of Geforce shadows on the MS.

  9. #9
    F176
    Guest
    Why the all shadows are floated over object?

    http://sibaaoi.nayou.net/HW2SHADOW.jpg

    All towers are floating...
    Is this bug? Or original design?

    *My spec is listed in spec listing thread.

  10. #10
    Solid
    Guest
    All the people with the problem "shadows-ATI" please submit the problem to the ati driver feedback:

    http://apps.ati.com/driverfeedback/index.asp

  11. #11
    jlave
    Guest
    i am running on a radeon 9600 and when i enable shadows my game will freeze, i hope they fix this soon

  12. Technical Help Senior Member Modding Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #12
    www.relicnews.com ÜberJumper's Avatar
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    post your HW2.log file in a new thread please jlave?

  13. #13
    Thorney
    Guest
    Originally posted by Solid
    All the people with the problem "shadows-ATI" please submit the problem to the ati driver feedback:

    http://apps.ati.com/driverfeedback/index.asp
    This really needs emphasizing. A far larger issue affecting HW2 now fixed for Catalyst 3.8 did not make 3.7 because...
    Originally posted by CATALYST maker

    This bug is understood and fixed in an internal build. It was however too late to hit the 3.7 schedule and we did not want to delay 3.7 since it fixed so many other things.

    Furthermore I hate to say it but the amount of feedback we have had in regards to that bug is suprisingly low (less than 10), so it was not considered a very high priority.

    Sorry for letting it slip but honestly you need to let us know what bugs are important to you. Follow the link in my sig and keep letting us know what we need to fix in what order.
    Please post where it counts most by participating in the feedback program.

  14. #14
    Atmospheric Entry Elephant The5thElephant's Avatar
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    Please all ATI users with this problem respond and give feedback! We need this change.





  15. Child's Play Donor General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member The Workshop Senior Member  #15
    Ignorans, te absolvo Homdax's Avatar
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    ati 9000 pro 128 Mb

    Count me in,
    tested this specificly yesterday and could not see any shadows at all. Zoomed in to Chimera and saw nothing.
    Details were on high but I am a little uncertain about the other settings.
    Wouldnyt it be an Idea to sum all all graphic settings in one post?

    I do not know if this is due to the "bug" in the ATI drivers or b´cause I have a 9000 Radeon Pro.
    What shall I expect from this card?

    ----------

    Done posted at ATI
    Last edited by Homdax; 16th Sep 03 at 6:38 AM.
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  16. Technical Help Senior Member Modding Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member  #16
    www.relicnews.com ÜberJumper's Avatar
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    If you've got the 3.6 catalyst drivers, then shadows are disabled even if you enable them in the game. Only the 3.7 Catalyst drivers will display shadows when you turn them on in game.

  17. Child's Play Donor General Discussions Senior Member Homeworld Senior Member The Workshop Senior Member  #17
    Ignorans, te absolvo Homdax's Avatar
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    In answer to Uberjumper:

    Got 3.7...desperately expecting 3.8
    Besides, most of this discussion is about the flaw in 3.7...:rage:

    Ahh! I found the graphic detail info I wanted in a docked thread
    When will I learn to browse through ALL the docks?
    Last edited by Homdax; 16th Sep 03 at 11:58 AM.

  18. #18
    Lone
    Guest
    I'm useing 3.6 drivers and was planning on updateing to 3.7 before I installed HW2. I'm only running the HW2 demo so I didn't see a need to update yet. And since the 3.7 update doesn't fix the shadows I will wait for 3.8 drivers.

    Is there a way I can enable the shadows useing the 3.6 drives (HW2.lua file?)?? This way I can have some info for the ATI driver feedback.

  19. #19
    johnblommers
    Guest
    Folks, Hi, this is John and I just got Homeworld 2 for the Macintosh. Guess what, I have a top of the line ATI Radeon 9800 Pro Macintosh Special Edition with 256MB VRAM. Homeworld disses my card with the message "HW2 had detected that your video card does not support multiple rendering contexts and has disabled shadows and high quality hyperspace effects." I wonder if we cannot pin this directly on the Aspyr/Relic ?

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