refinerys currently better than flaks and stuff

[AntaresSITH]

i just had my first game in the internet vs darkdemon to test a unit: the mobile refinery

i did some tests against the CPU and they all worked well.
what i did:

building 4 refinerys and just ion platforms for cap attack support. i moved the ions (about 6) to darks mothership and workers.
while the ions where killing the workers , the refinerys ate darks fighters (he also complained about how fast they took out his fighters).
my first attack was about 3 min after game's start and it could be done even faster, cause i was a little bit tizzy
i had no problems at all with killing dark even if it was my first game.

if u look at the stats here u see why.

the refinery is faster, better armored, got more firepower AND got better couverage. it also needs no research and still is unsefull for your workers.

IMO the firepower has to be cut by half or the health has to be lowered, otherwise u use a SUPPLY ship for main combat, which seems like an exploit to me.

i hope dark gives a brief comment from his view

[Wolf359]

I must compliment your inginuity, at first I couldn't figure out what the "Refinery" was you were talking about, but sure enough you're using a Mobile Refinery as a battle platform, interesting as it would not have occured to me to do this, perhaps because in the HW1 days, the equivalent craft was unarmed. I shall have to examine the possibility of using the refineries as strike craft myself. Cheers.

[CmdKewin]

uhm... you should see one of my friends using ion platforms as high speed attack ships. 10 or so of them, deployed in the middle of the enemy strike fleet... You can immagine the results...

[silencio]

Antares just pointed this one out to me, i went and tried it against a comp on expert, and it really wasn't a contest. Not only are they better than flak frigates, but you can have them so much earlier that it really unbalances the game. By using them to defend the platforms, while the platforms destroy the opponent's workers, you can cripple your opponent before they have a chance.

So what can you do to counter this? fighters/corvs really aren't the answer, i don't think, as the small amount of fighters you will have this early on in the game seem to get creamed by the refineries. Frigates won't last too long against the platforms, as you can pump ionplats far faster than you can torps.

Only quick solution i can think of off the top of my head is go for quick platforms, target your ions on their refineries and then release fighters to take down their ionplats.

I stress that I know nothing about this game though, as i've only been playing it for a few days... your thoughts?

[AntaresSITH]

ya sil,

i tested it myself again against a (in hw:c and hw) good player and even after he knew what he was facing and build fighters like hell he wasnt a match

also the tactic is spreading... i saw a chat message to that topic in the lobby...

that has to be changed

btw... i dont think ealry ions could take out all 4 refs cause they got too much health right now. and if one is dying just rebuild it within 45 sec (if u got a carrier)

of course i lost some refs in my 2nd testgame, but i my enemy was concentrating ONLY on the refs and my ion turrets had fun with the enemy workers.

[Mr Tyranny]

When Refinerys ATTACK!!

Whoooowee!!

Wow.. talk about an exploit.. I took out the cpus entire harvesting operation and fleet including the carrier with just these ships.. and I only lost TWO of them! En mass these things are almost instant death to all ships frigate size and down.. The carrier take a bit to kill and go take a nap if you want to take out the MS with em.. But thats only if you use them alone.. If you add them to a strike group of Ions and Torps you end up with big ball 'o death for all comers.. Not to say that its a perfect weapon.. there are a few issues with using it effectivly but I'll let you find that out for yourself..

[.:Steevo:.]

Err...ummmm... isn't that an exploit that will be fixed in the full game with a patch?

[Afoxi]

Put the refinery a little way up the tech tree.

[da2]

i just won 4 multi player games useing that tactic.lol

[AntaresSITH]

well now that mre and more guys using this strat it'll get common quite fast and makes the demo unplayable, cause everybody will use it but it wont (hopefully) work in the full version.

and i already found some other stuff replacing the refinery if it is changed.

i think the stats of many units will be altered in the full version.


putting up the refinery in the tech tree wont help. if a unit is overpowered i do EVERYTHING to get it. and if it is at the same level like e.g. the destroyer it is useless in the hole game.

[Gyokuran]

The rifinery shouldnt be more powerfull in every way then a combat ship suposed to fit that role.

[motiv-8]

Hmm. That's crazy. To easily fix it in the 1.01 patch:

- Reduce Health by 1/3 to 12000
- Reduce Damage/Sec by 1/2 to 40
- Reduce Speed to 200*
- Increase Buildtime to 50

*Speed can't be reduced too much, it needs to be able to keep up with Collectors.

[Zepherian]

I was one of Antares's victims. This strategy is nasty because of two things: One is of course the totally pants refinery stats. I have no problem with a powerfull refinery in mid-late game after an extensive research and upgrade path, but to have that thing do what it does to 7 fighter squadrons, Including bombers, with no research right off the production line is a gamedesign blooper. I do trust it will be fixed in the full version or a subsequent patch. Two is the platforms themselves, even if you can only deploy them once, the fact that they follow CS around is also a blooper. In fact, mecha said it was a bug, so I trust platforms at least will not be overpowered in the full version. I read rekis post on the same thread, and if what he says about platforms auto engaging and stopping is true, the platform part of Antares's rush is not a problem, even in demo, but the refinery situation remains.

As it is just a unit stats problem I think it can easily be solved. Thx for sharing this with the community antares. You do realise you blew your best chance at being nº 1 on HW ladder? :P :P :P

[Rampart]

I don't have the demo in front of me (at work), so I can't check this, but perhaps the refinery has it's full upgrade package in the demo, whereas in the full version it would be much weaker initially.

[AncientGamer]

I haven't tried it but shouldn't Torpedo Frigates be able to take out the Refineries and Ion platforms?

[VacuumDiagrams]

Yep, but you can pump out ion platforms and refineries much faster than you can torp frigates.

[Beef]

flaks hit multiple units at the same time, while a mobile refinery misses a lot

haven't tried the tactic out yet, next victim gets it

[JackBoCracken]

bombers nail refineries really really fast, and although they will die to the gun platforms, you'll do a lot of damage pretty easily.

[Beef]

and 4 refineries don't do much against a good fighting force, besides soaking up a lot of damage
they cost about the same as the bombing squad needed to destroy them
an early ion frigate and bye bye refineries

so imo it's balanced enough :P

[AntaresSITH]

@ zeph

kojo eh?
i wont play ladder... never did and will never do. its more amusing if the top ladder players are killed by a guy they dont know and start complaining hehehe

@ AncientGamer

torpedo wont work... fregatte module is to expensive and needs research module. till u get the first torpedo i got 3-4 ion platforms.
if u focus on torpedo ONLY u got nothing against a "normal" fighter rush.

@ JackBoCracken
no they wont... with armor upgrade they got to much health. perhaps u kill 1 or even 2 but as soon as the first refinery dies i replace it and use the MS for ion build backup.
your bomber level is dropping and meanwhile my ions are killing your workers.... u dont have the firepoweer to kill both: refinerys AND ions.

@ beef
i once killed the (initial) 2 inty squads and 4 bomber squads of a player who KNEW what i was doing from the very begining of the game. he bumped fighters but they couldnt kill my refinerys except one.
talking about early ions:
first ion build time = 75 (research) + 150 (adv research) + 55 first ion = 280 sec... ask zeph, Z-chicken, darkdemon or vanfanel when my rush arrived. it was even before it. and a single ion can be handled easily by 4-6 ion plats


after my 10th game now ( all won with this ) i think perhaps pulsar corvs can stand it. i tried it and it worked against a friend of mine how was using the ref rush for the first time after an explanation.
if zeph was kojo then he showed me another option:
jumping away. but this is no real solution, cause u have to waste a lot of money and cannot rebuild fast enough. is a defensive tactic but works for some time

[AncientGamer]

For fun I tested this "strategy" against the computer on expert. When I rushed him, I won in 15 minutes. When I sat back and made a huge complex of nothing but refineries and ion platforms the computer made a SWARM of pulsar gunships. They quickly wiped out my platforms but didn't scratch my refineries, although I had to eventually build torp frigates because the refineries couldn't seem to kill off the gunships. I also had 10 fighter squadrons that were mowed down by the gunships...

[AntaresSITH]

u have to be aggressive !!!
after 3 min u have to be close (means CLOSE) to the enemy MS and start killing the workers.
every game i did with this was decided after 5 min.
ehm.. btw... if silencio says it works... better belive him

[AncientGamer]

Hehehehe, I agree with you, so does my last post. =) It's REALLY hard to beat if they are agressive and attack early, but if they survive or you aren't quick enough then it's usefullness goes downhill fast.

[NovaBurn]

during the Homeworld era that the patches release also contained balancing ship fixes. so this will get fixed with a patch most likely.

Until then. REFINERY TIME

[Kadreal]

Yeah flak damage is AOE and almost always hits because of that, or about 50 damage PER unit per second, considering bombers have about 30 hp per unit, a single flak can massacre a bomber squad before it finishes it's first pass. On another note if you look at the refinery, it doesn't seem to have any slots for PD guns like the mothership and carrier, in fact if you look carfuly the muzzle flashes seem to be coming out of a solid slab of hull on the refinery... strange.

[Gyokuran]

Hmmm... I just tried them out in combat for the first time. While they are good, the flack frig's AOE is handy, but I did manage to almost competly chew up some bomber squads before they could make a 3rd pass. I later added a few flack frigs in with them, which I thought should work quite well, but never got a chance to test it out due to a problem and the game froze for every one.

The only counter I can think of is to get torpedo frigs as absolutly fast as you can.

[Artagnan]

I think it would not be to hard to balance. I think the refineries should be unarmed until you research an upgrade, and then their attacks should only be effective against fighters and maybe vettes. This would make them useless as a late game deterrent, and create a danger to early resourcing attempts. Late game, they would only be effective in the sense that they could drive away small forces of raiding ships attempting to cause slow annoying death to your forces. They are not supposed to be able to fight, and if they are usefull on the attack under any circumstances, then the point of the ship is destroyed.

[Gyokuran]

Alright, I just did this against the computer. I beat it with out losing a SINGE ship or subsystem. This is with 4 refineries, they wiped out interceptors and gunships like they were nothing. Bombers gave a bit of trouble, but not many survived to pull off a 2ed bombing run. Once their defenses were gone, I went after their collecters slowing down thier RU gain. Meanwhile I quicky constructed fig subsystems on my carrier which was close behind. It wasnt long before I had torpedo frigs ready to take out the mother ship and carrier, and not long after that before I was building ion frigs.

[Rodimus]

wow, this is the cheapest exploit ever, but really only good against 2 oponents max. I tried doing this with 3 expert computers and only got two before getting owned

i think splitting the rush force three ways would thin it out too much....maybe not

[VacuumDiagrams]

I'm not sure why the mobile refinery should be this powerful period, even later in the game. It has defenses so that someone doesn't just send one set of int's out to a patch you're harvesting (with minimal defenses) and wipe everything out. I think relic was thinking of it with this sort of thing in mind, and didn't realize that people would begin using them as an offensive (or for that matter) defensive weapon.

[Afoxi]

A suitable counter is: Build your own Ion plats. Within 3 minutes (or something like that), I have managed to be able to produce one Ion Frigate. Remember, get at least 1 frigate out, their beams are far superior to the platform beams. But there is the question of the refineries, you have to keep them busy somehow...

[ultron87]

I also just tried this tactic out for the first time. I sent in 4 refineries. The other player for some reason had two carriers and a wing of interceptors. The interceptors were dropped easily by the refineries and then the refineries and carrier/MS were just taking potshots at each other not really causing any damage. Then my Ion turrets showed up and trashed them. I won with losing only one turret from the mothership guns.

My opponent didn't know what hit him.

Has anyone tried using Ion turrets to counter this? Maybe they could take out the refineries.

[Afoxi]

It's difficult, and it leaves you open to fighter attacks... But i'ts the only way.

[GIMPbeowulf]

I've not been on either end of this in game, but what about just moving? That would leave them with how ever many ion platforms just floating in space, a research path they probably didn't want, and by the time they do it to wherever you move to you might have enough stuff to fend it off.

[agent_pissant]

Thats probably the ONLY defense.

[BoddoZerg]

I don't see why the refinery has to be armed at all. They should go back to unarmed refineries.

[NightCabbage]

I still think that the ref shouldn't have that much firepower...

If they're armed at all, they should do less damage.

The problem is that they should always have lots of HPs, so won't die too easily.

I won a game just for fun with 30 refs and 6 ion cannon frigates...

They build so quickly :/

Quick build time
High HPs
High damage

Ownage - which is just wrong :P

Really, a ref should have a small fleet guarding it, and shouldn't have much firepower at all.

[JackBoCracken]

Maybe they could make it so the refineries couldn't fire while moving? That would solve pretty much all the problems, since they'd be sitting ducks until they stopped.

[JamesX]

I remember my old post about Refiners being too heavily armed. Didn't expect it to be like this though. Refinery isn't cheap though. at 800 a piece, the opponent could have build torpedo frigates by then.

4 refinery = 3200 credits
1 torpedo + 1 research + 1 frigate facility = 2800 credits (I think, no sure if Frigate Facility cost 1100 or 1000).

hem.... I am not sure how quickly a torpedo frigate can shoot down a platform, but I see the tide goes to the Refinery, since they are also escorted. It all depends on the opponent's skills I guess.

[Polaris]

That wouldnt solve anything. Refineries would be parked at the RU spot of the enemy mothership picking off the RU collectors.

[Wulfius-Khan]

REALX GENTELMEN! ELVIS HAS LEFT THE BUILDING

I have played with the tactic. The refineries are NOT broken.

On 1vs1 map there is a cap on refineries.
4 Refineires will provide your opponent with some amusement but he CAN strike back if he is half competent.

On 2vs2 (or a larger map) the tactic can kill a poor player. :gnight:

However, by that time you are exposed to the other enemy.

The best counter Ive seen so far?
Hyperspace your mothership away.

[NightCabbage]

Either way they're still unbalanced.

They shouldn't be better in combat than a flak frigate!

LOL

evul :P

and ARGH I HATE THOSE JOIN / LEAVE MESSAGES!!!

[AntaresSITH]

i have already said this:
hyperspacing away wont work, cause u have to waste RU AND time to get your ass out. while u are hypering i my rebuild ion platforms and wait till i found u. then the hole thing starts again.

MOVING away aint possible (esp. with MS) cause the ion plats got a LONG range (longest in demo). till you get your MS away with just moving (god it takes already half a minute to rotate 90°) it is already heavily damaged.

i agree with all guys in here who say the refinery should have no weapons at all or only with upgrade.

but then again the turret prob remains. even if the parade formation "bug" is fixed, the stats and early availability still makes them a good offensive weapon.

what do u think about turrets, that are built external by a worker and have to engines at all and/or have to be moved by a single worker and could move by its own.

that would give them a more "static" turret character.

just an idea though... i know the game is done now and relic certainly wouldnt change it...

[Tagar]

hmm Wining SP with just Refinerys.... would look funny

[Retroboy]

I think the refinery rush is broken, because of the following:

They're REFINERIES, not assault craft.

Having them be one of the easiest forces to win the game with seems just wrong to me. It's like outfitting probes with ion cannons. It bends a craft that is supposed to have a specific, dedicated use into another role.

How would an inexperienced, new HW2 fan react when some semiveteran whups his ass repeatedly with a tactic that sidesteps convention such as this?

Yes, there IS a counter, or maybe a couple, but you're pretty much going to need to follow a specific construction path to get it working in time, and that SERIOUSLY limits your gameplay options.

Refineries as damage soaks seems logical. But as a primo assault craft - that's just wrong.

-- Retro

[JackBoCracken]

Originally posted by Polaris
That wouldnt solve anything. Refineries would be parked at the RU spot of the enemy mothership picking off the RU collectors.

Well I'm assuming a smart player would either A) run away from them or B) hit them while they're moving towards the resource spot

[Lucky]

Ok, I've actually seen this tactic tried on me once. Got me a lot of laughs too. Why it will never work against an experienced player:
1. Price - 800res compared to alternative 300 res for gun platform. And platforms have much better accuracy, the only thing refineries really do work against are unprotected resoursing operations. Put some vette/platform screen and those expensive refineries go in flames.
2. Build time - again much longer then platform's time.
3. Effectiveness/accuracy - only good vs unupgraded/pass starting fighter class and collectors when they sit on the asteroid. Gets eaten alive by anything else, especially when outnumbered (look at the resourse cost). Only a suicidal person would send interceptors to counter a heavily armored ship, even if they don't get hit, they simply won't do any significant damage.

P.S. Bombers do eat through refineries, as long as you micro them instead of just watching their numbers thin out steadily.

As for saying that refinery is better then flak frig - not on your life. Incredibly sucky accuracy, no splash damage at all (5 flaks can protect ion frigs against 12+12 bomber fleets, losing 1-2 frigs total - seen at least twice) and more expensive. Not to mention that it tends to "drag" nearby resoursers away from patches.

[Beef]

the 'ramming frigates' weren't combat ships either
whatever goes, goes in a war

[AntaresSITH]

@ retroboy
u got the point. thats exactly my opinion. a support unit should NEVER be better than a combat unit in battle.

@ lucky

1. Price - 800res compared to alternative 300 res for gun platform. And platforms have much better accuracy, the only thing refineries really do work against are unprotected resoursing operations. Put some vette/platform screen and those expensive refineries go in flames.
2. Build time - again much longer then platform's time.
3. Effectiveness/accuracy - only good vs unupgraded/pass starting fighter class and collectors when they sit on the asteroid. Gets eaten alive by anything else, especially when outnumbered (look at the resourse cost). Only a suicidal person would send interceptors to counter a heavily armored ship, even if they don't get hit, they simply won't do any significant damage.

just some stats stuff:
refinery
dmg/s: 80
speed: 225
health: 18000
cost: 800
buildtime: 45 sec

gun platform
dmg/s: 32
speed: 200 (single)
health: 5000
cost: 300
build time: 20 sec

a refinery is only compareable to 3 gunplatforms. thus:
3xgunplatform
dmg/s: 96
speed: 200 (single)
health: 15000
cost: 900
build time: 60 sec

(of course there are some hidden stats i dont know yet., e.g. exact range, exact firepower of a single gun...)

a refinery got slightly less firepower, still more health, builds faster, is cheaper, got higher speed AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING: is is moveable more than once.
man that thing is initialy even faster than corvettes (which got 215)
another thing is the build up of the guns:
the turrets have to "rotate", the guns of the refinery are just fireing... there is no such rotating thing. i havent even spotted a real "gun" on the texture yet. its just fireing.
the bullets themselves are the same of gun plats and refinery, but i think refinerys fire faster. (have to check this)
as an example:
a single bomber needs two hits of a refinery gun and it is gone. a single hit does about 80% damage.

and ... yaaaa... (bored) i know that hicg tech units CAN defeat this stuff, but what are high tech units helping if u are crippled after 4 min.

As for saying that refinery is better then flak frig - not on your life. Incredibly sucky accuracy, no splash damage at all (5 flaks can protect ion frigs against 12+12 bomber fleets, losing 1-2 frigs total - seen at least twice) and more expensive. Not to mention that it tends to "drag" nearby resoursers away from patches.

till u get 5 flaks and some ions u are dead...
and dont start about thinking of "the current maps are the smallest in the full version". for the ref rush the maps are currently TOO small. i have to wait 1 min till i got enough platforms to attack... u got it? i also got platforms with me and lots of them... the refinery rush is only a real refinery rush if u take ion platforms with u

what do u mean with "drag nearby resourcers away"? at the location where i use my refs are no collectors nearby... who would send his collectors to the enemy? *confused*

[DarkDemon]

Antares showed me the problem yesterday....we played and he wooped my ass.
he not lose even 1 ship.
now...12 hours later....i played "few" games with this strat.
and i say: a refernerie & ionrush is unstoppable.
i tested it with few old cata guys and i won a 1 vs 2 few mins ago.

5 refs + armorupgrade can take out a full fighterforce.




this is a damn exploit. and i hope the sierra guys fix it.