I wonder if Uber Jumper could put some input into this as (to my knowledge) has former military service as well as a few other board members.
If anyone is interested I have a few you tube videos linked in my sig to modern day soldiers.
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I wonder if Uber Jumper could put some input into this as (to my knowledge) has former military service as well as a few other board members.
If anyone is interested I have a few you tube videos linked in my sig to modern day soldiers.
Just because someone was in the military doesn't mean they were in a war.
I just finished my conscription here in Sweden. And while I never saw real combat, I am quite ready to say that one of the most exhilirating things I have ever done is blank fire combat training. Once you get into the mindset, little else is truly as amazing as running around with your squad trying to outflank the opposing force.
Don't get me wrong here, war is not something I want to ever experience, not as a soldier or a civilian. But, the human mind has an attraction to violence and conflict. It is in our very nature to be ready to fight for our right to survive and in this day and age we do not face predators or the need to hunt as we did before. Thus, we find the relief for such primal urges in other ways, movies and games being the most common. That is in no way the same thing as wanting to go to war though.
Technically painboy has a point.Look at war video games.You think they're cool right?Would you think they were cool if you could actually make the other person die in real life,destroy their house,and cause grief to their family?
No, but I don't think it'd be cool if I was in a war, period. By basic principle, War is destruction, violence, and death. I'm not sure how war can be fun until people die.... Do you really think you'd be having a blast on D-Day until you saw someone die?
Of course not because they were getting hurt and maimed.If it was a simulation of d-day (GASP!kind of like this game!) then you'd probably be saying "oh my god this is so cool". War isn't cool in real life,but its cool in a game (which I didn't clarify earlier). Otherwise,you probably would not be playing this game now would you?No, but I don't think it'd be cool if I was in a war, period. By basic principle, War is destruction, violence, and death. I'm not sure how war can be fun until people die.... Do you really think you'd be having a blast on D-Day until you saw someone die?
And you do hear veterans recounting about how they thought war was an exciting prospect,but once they got into the act reality hit them.
"War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it."
Erasmus
The only thing that entertainment like BoB or CoH can hope for to archive is that the intrested viewer maybe picks up a book about WW2. Those who dont grew up with storys and first hand accounts might get a bit of a wrong view about the "great war" since games and movies only present a watered version of realistic things happend.
Its a huge diffrence if a whole country was effected by WW2 ( and thus the memories get passed along throughout the whole country ) or if there where only armies fighting ( individuals with a individual story that might spread in the familiy, but the "overall lesson" might not be come through as powerfull as its the case with states in europe that where directly involved )
Either way around. There should be no discussion about that WAR IS HELL.
Having entertainment about war is fine as long as the viewers understand war is fundamentally wrong at all costs.
Certain people still believe war is the right decision when they feel threated by a foriegn nation. The younger generation needs to learn about the aftermath of war and what it does. If the education system was improved, many countries would have educated individuals in making the right decisions. War should be banned across the globe except many countries see themselves as superior or being rebellious.
Does anyone know a relic board member that actually experienced real war? If so, I would like them to post their war experience. This would give us insight if COH would be difficult for some war veterans to play. Please if anyone could find out this info.
#59
And you're basing this on what?I mean I do not think a real WWII vetern could actually play this game nor any other WWII game without remembering horrific flashbacks of their war trauma.
A video game the depicts an historical war != war. Grow up. Your outlook is extremely naïve.This game is good and involves strategy, but it feels so strange to play with a game that tries to condone war.
If this game condones war by depicting it then every single history book ever written, every documentary, every war movie and every war game ever produced condones war. Acknowledging that war exists is not the same thing as condoning war, and this game does nothing more than acknowledge World War II, using it as a setting for a video game.
Last edited by Dux; 27th Jun 07 at 3:29 PM.
In-Game: Dux
Steam Account: DucusSumus
I find your posts at the begining and the end of this thread conflicting. I can't understand your veiwpoint that "...war is fundamentally wrong at all costs." and "War should be banned across the globe..." and yet you play wargames and watch war movies. If war is fundamentally wrong then how can you support wargames and war movies, whether it be about real, sci-fi or fantasy combat? Combat is combat. You have a fascination with war and combat yet you oppose it? Doesn't add up, friend.
There are 2 members of my wife's family that are combat veterans. The first is her father, who lived what you saw in BoB. He was there in Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge, attached to the 101st and later Patton's Army. The second is her nephew who has finished 3 tours in Iraq and involved in some of the toughest fighting in the areas we hear about on the news.
I called them today and read them what you have said. The answer was the same. They wanted to know if the freedoms you hold dear are worth fighting for?
I'm American. I relish my freedoms and served 12 years active duty as an officer. Although I'm a veteran of combat, my experiences were at 30,000 feet and unlike a foot soldier's. Your profile doesn't mention where you live, but this country only existed because we won the Revolutionary War. Slavery in our country was ended by a war. Europe is now free because we won World War II and America played a very large role in that. Freedom comes at a price and by the determination of those willing to stand up and put their lives on the line for what they believe in, to include combat and going to war, that you find so needless. I live in a very liberal state, yet I drive around with my B-52 profile in a circle (it looks like a peace symbol) that has "Peace the Old Fashioned way" below it. Check www.peacetheoldfashionedway.com/peacedecal.htm for a look.
The notions you've put forth remind me of a vegetarian who likes to have a burger once a month. I truly believe there is only one way to have your desire to know "if COH would be difficult for some war veterans to play." Your birthday tells me you're old enough for service. I suggest you enlist, go defend the ideals of freedom that you should (and others find) dear. Then play your games and answer the question for yourself.
Respectfully,
A patriot.
edit-typo
#61
+1 to the above post.
Pmon, it's clear to me there is much of this world that you have yet to understand. "Banning war across the globe" sounds nice, but it's impossible, and ignoring war, shunning all forms of media that depict war, does nothing to help your cause. Denial has been the solution to exactly zero problems.
Salute to Rifleman89!
Anyway,they did try to ban war. Look up the Kellog-Bryant pact(I'm pretty sure that was what it was called) conference in the late 20's or early 30s. timeframe alone lets you know that it wasn't successful because it wasn't realistic.War is a fact of life,like it or not.
Makes me want to fire up my Germans and kill off some more weak willed americans. Meh to each their own.
Rifleman89 does have valid points , but that also leads to the question what is freedom. Why fight? What if we let Nazi germany win., put down all our arms and just let them win. Sure they would still kill all the jews and the "inferior people", but I doubt the death toll of that would be 60 million dead several trillion dollers of war damge, millions upon millions of people displaced.
We shall rule this galaxy once more.
If the Nazis won,everyone who wasn't blonde haired blue eyed would be enslaved.That makes for about 90+% of the population.I'd say alot of people wouldn't take it in the ass and let that happen.
If the Nazi regime had won through and Hitler hadn't have been assasinated it would be a pretty poor state of things, and likely to be one with war on a constant basis even years after their victory. People from occupied nations all over would be leading a resistance war and we don't know if the cleansing machine would have changed to start eliminating people of other ethnicities and cause more death. I think the death toll would either have been the same or higher regardless of an Allied victory.
They should make a Film called Killing Private Ryan. With Germans cakewalking Americans. If you want to watch a good WW2 movie watch the longest day.
SPR's depiction of the Germans is utterly pathetic. I hate that portion of the movie.
I remember that my grandfather ( Kradmelder in a PanzerDivision Ostfront 41-44 ) couldent stand watching War-Movies or stuff like that. He said something along the lines that: "this stuff brings the deamons back..."
?If the Nazi regime had won through and Hitler hadn't have been assasinated it would be a pretty poor state of things
Yepp, like in many other movies about WWII too, where german soldiers are shown so idiotic.Originally Posted by [GAR]schredd0r
BoB is cool, but...cmon the german soldiers act like idiots. its a bit too patriotic for me
I then often ask myself: omg, those idiots conquered more than half of europe in less than a year, how idiotic must have been the soldiers of those countries of france, britain, poland, netherlands, finland, denmark,.......
only americans seems to be the best soldiers in the world - but loses to vietcongs. Ironic ! ;-)
You mean the one with really "realistic" portrayal of shit that happened at Omaha? You know, the blood and guts etc...
IMHO, that movie is too sterile and is far from giving a real feeling of what it was like. Yes, it was grandiose, but it was so a '60s wartime flick. A Bridge Too Far is IMO a better portrayal of what it's like and even it leaves something to be desired.
@Kaskad
You do you know that some of Hitlers staff tried to assasinate him near the end of the war, and although it was foiled unfortunately there were still many who wanted him out to try and make things better elsewhere or change the Reich to their own version of it. Hell Rommel was part of the late attempt to kill Hitler and he was arrested for it.
Rommel knew about those plan in a very, very late state. Its not like he was against the regime early on or ever take part in the acctual planings.There were some attempts to kill hitler.
Imagine they would have succeded in killing Hitler in 1944 !
Russians wouldn´t have conquered half of Berlin, there wouldn´t have been any German democratic republic, maybe no iron curtain - and maybe we even wouldn´t live the way we live today with all of our high tech ..... but as I said: maybe....
But A bridge too far has cakewalking too...
Very true BlackLabel I should have been a little more in depth with the Rommel reference, he was a smart man who knew what was coming and only wanted to lessen the damage that would be done. I was just illustrating my point with a name people would recognise, but as mentioned earlier if they had succeded it would have been a very different outcome I suppose, especially if they had sued for peace and ended the war before the fall of Berlin.
And from my earlier post about the Nazi's winning and then things still being bad was that power struggles are always a part of government regardless of the type and someone would have eventually decided it was their time for the spotlight and blah blah blah.
But A bridge too far has cakewalking too...
Yeah, I seem to remember the Germans owning everyone in that movie. But that was many years ago. It does seem like recent WW2 movies have slightly idiotic Germans.
Slightly OP: A succesfull assisination of Hitler around ´39 whould have maybe prevent the Ostfront and the War against Soviet Russia in general ( or maybe delayed...). The german soliders whould have been more than happy to return home after the suchesfull "Blitzkrieg" in the west.
An assisination around ´44 whouldent have prevented the cold war. It was forseeable to happen.
The Cold War is one of those events that no matter how, most likely would have occured anyway.
The real question is if it would have been USA vs. Soviet or if Germany instead had teamed up with UK (as was Hitlers vision), the commonwealth and France against Soviet. Whatever the scenario, Soviet was a disliked country by everyone simply because of political ideology, and with Stalin at the helm there, it went down the pipe.
Disliked by everyone except China.
Rifleman89 and Dux say that I am "naive" and that war is a part of life and I should deal with it. I never said anything negative towards any specific war in general or the people who fought in them. I am talking about the public and how war is portrayed in the entertainment industry. Yes, I may have a unrealistic view of the world, but I did not mean to upset anyone.
I having nothing against fantasy or scifi war games. I having nothing against COH either. I just wanted to know what war veterens thought of COH. I recieved my answer from Rifleman89, but he tells me I should jion the military to truly find out.
Maybe I would be a good soldier, but I would like to be a trained professional or a military strategist. I swim a lot and am quite fit so they probably would want me to sign up, however right now, my family is suffering from terminal illness.
If I did jion, I would try to make the military my career by going up the ranks to an Admiral or General then that probably would be the United States's worst fear. I would resemble Admiral Cain from "Battlestar Galactica", which is the closest example I can give. I would probably be vicious, since I believe human kind must do everything to reach the next stage in human evolution. Yes, I may seem "naive" and generous, but deep down I am a completely different person. This is becasue my mother was a crazy sergeant type woman who made me go through a tough, strange childhood.
Today, she is a different person, but she changed me forever. So, I would rather not jion the miltary to spare the world of my cruel ways. I would not like to unleash the beast inside me because really I could not kill another human being, since I may never be able to stop after that.
Last edited by Pmon1; 28th Jun 07 at 5:08 PM.
straight jacket anyone?
Ok....that was unexpected..........
BoB made me cry. And that's saying a lot.
The concentration camp episode is so well made, so frighteningly accurate in depicting the depths to which humanity can sink, it breaks my heart every time I watch it.
That said, I play CoH avidly because of BoB. It gets me that much more involved in the game, because I see a story in every battle that is fought.
Massive, massive hilarity right there.If I did jion, I would try to make the military my career by going up the ranks to an Admiral or General then that probably would be the United States's worst fear. I would resemble Admiral Cain from "Battlestar Galactica", which is the closest example I can give. I would probably be vicious, since I believe human kind must do everything to reach the next stage in human evolution. Yes, I may seem "naive" and generous, but deep down I am a completely different person. This is becasue my mother was a crazy sergeant type woman who made me go through a tough, strange childhood.
Today, she is a different person, but she changed me forever. So, I would rather not jion the miltary to spare the world of my cruel ways. I would not like to unleash the beast inside me because really I could not kill another human being, since I may never be able to stop after that.
damn i hope war dont drive ya away from these games
west point, annapolis, colorado springsIf I did jion, I would try to make the military my career by going up the ranks to an Admiral or General then that probably would be the United States's worst fear.
Yeah, go through there, once out of services get offered a job with our company depsite having no idea about business and get promoted right to top, its a win win situation.
(do i sound bitter... .arrgh)
So I watched this "so called" great drma of BoB !
Okay, I´m german and I dislike the way the germans are shown in this series: as brutal, idiotic guys who even weren´t abel to shoot the enemy on the open field with a MG. In addition the germans seem to think they don´t need guards during the night, so the enemy can ambush perfectly and kill dozens germans without having any casualties. Idiotic !
Sorry, then I like to play CoH in which the axis side at least has the chance to win although rifles, shermans and paks are still weapons they would have dreamed of in the second WW !
ROFL @ Pmon's post.
Oh man, I really hope he was trying to be funny.
Actually BoB portrays the germans alot better than any WW2 series as it shows viewers that they're merely humans aswell.
(See the episode where they're in Germany and amazed by the kindness of German people, one of the first episodes when one of the members from E. Company is talking with an american who joined the Wehrmacht, etc etc.)
the german soldiers are portrayed in BoB mostly as idiots or cowards - that´s not the way to deal with those men, whom fought bravely in battles they couldn´t win. It would have been the best WW2 series of all time if Spielberg/Hanks would have decided to portray the german wehrmacht the way they were in reality. So many young people must think, that german soldiers were dumb, not even able to target a person in open field with a MG ! Bah !
I agree that the combat scenes aren't realistic, but otherwise the way the series portray the Germans is actually quite good.
One of the most touching scenes in the series is in the last episode where a German general holds a speech to his men, while the camera pans over their battle-weary faces.
I once rented Pvt. Ryan for the second or third time, but somehow couldn't finish it. I actually felt sick in an emotional sense, sick of watching people die, though that should have happened in the theater the first time I saw it.
I guess there's a limit everyone reaches, perhaps when they "understand," and they don't need any more, in fact, they are revolted by the thought of more.
Hoping CoH2 Ships With Worldbuilder....
Too bad the series isn't fictional, hmm?Okay, I´m german and I dislike the way the germans are shown in this series
#96
And it neither depicts those events accurately.Too bad the series isn't fictional, hmm?
#97
I don't really see where germans are portrayed that badly in BoB. Yes, they are shown as the losing side, but guess what. That's what happened - they lost, particularly in the battles shown in the show. At the same time, it portrayed you're typical Wehrmacht german soldier in a good light. I liked the scene in Points where the german NCO and american soldier are sharing traffic duty at that crossroads (where the jeep accident happens), and the touching scene where the German general talks to his soldiers that are going home. There was also a german surgeon who saved that american's life who had been shot by that crazy american soldier. The scene where the SS Nazi officer (I think he was SS, not sure) surrenders to Winters and offers his pistol portrays a Nazi in a poor light, but they shouldn't have glorified (can't quite find the right word) him either. Notice that in peacetime that the Wehrmacht soldiers are shown in a respectful fellow-soldier light, and german civilians (at least those near the camps) and nazis are shown in a poor light. Any soldier (american or german) in combat is shown in a brutal light.
Now, SPR was a bit unfair in having that one soldier who was captured near the MG, released and then came back to kill Capt Anderson, which played more on a german soldier sterotype.
How so?And it neither depicts those events accurately.
Please people do not take the movies whether BoB, saving pvt Ryan, a bridge to far ... serious even if they have some believe and realistic in it like for example BoB. These are still movies and hollywood needs to get some income from them so you can NOT expect to have a totally realistic depiction of everything as it would easily blow away the length of the whole series as it would be way too much to show you from both sides (allies and axis and their different nationalities and countries that supported those sides [italy for example germany and America with Great Britain ...]).
It will always just be a movie and believe me when i say you that i have seen a lot of historical (and documenteral) movies (all in german!) that were actually very accurate and from that particular timeframe (means old black and white movies) and those showed scenes where some people would certainly be either offended by/not like to see/very brutal ... et cetera and so forth!
The only positive thing (IF there is ANY) about a WORLD WAR is the technological advancements the particular fighting sides gain in order to get the upper hand towards the other and thats something i would not like to propagate nor to support in any way!
@ GeneralGonzo
Well if you dislike how the hollywood makers did make the germans then it seems to me that you support what the Nazi/SS/Waffen-SS/SA regime did and that sounds for me not really nice GeneralGonzo. - see it from this side, IF we would see the germans how i saw the german Wehrmachts propaganda movies et cetera and what certain german army parties did to traitors/people which do not look like they want them ... then you would certainly RETHINK about this topic
No side is ever free of guilty as all sides during the WWII had their flaws but unfortunately had the german side the BIGGEST flaw which was obviously their fanatism to build up their allmighty 3rd Reich which contains the 'ultimate Herrenrasse' which Hitler and many other Nazi and Nazi lover/asociates wanted to create in order to establish THEIR NEW World Order.
I'm sorry if you dislike how they showed the german army at that particular movie but be happy that it is so as today the german army (Bundeswehr) is seen from the right angle and is seen way more honorful/respectful as it was in the past (fortunately) e.g. some Tornado missions which were asked for from the US in the War agains the Terror (just one example of a lot of possible missions the german troops of today were used to).
Iam WAY more proud on the Bundeswehr of today then of that during 1939 - 45 as i NEVER EVER will show ANY relation to them whether they fought bravely or not as certain people do not know what i know about their thinking/actions they did in the past ... and that especially about those which i saw in the old propaganda/documenteral movies
hu i have spoken hehe.
#99
Thanks to mr.powell I shouldn't have to answer this, but I wanted to anywayHow so?
Artistic liberty, simple as that. Even CoH is based on real events. Those can be portrayed more or less accurately, but never completely.
I would even claim that the people participating in these events can't do it. But I don't want to offend someone with this, so if you are, please ignore that part.
Well i aint reading the whole thread, but ive been like this for abit, it wasnt BOB but a book i read (its called 'Sniper on the Eastern front') i knew war was horible before after reading other books, watching documentaries and films on WW2, but this book just brought it home.
Its about a german sniper serving in Russia, honeslty i don't knew whos wose, russnains or germans, they did some terrible things to each oher and innocent civilians.
Example: he watched from a building alone (was on a recon mission) and watched 15 russians rape a civilian, in turn in fron of her husband, which went on for hours. It ended with one of the sodiers putting a flare in between her legs, and firing.... it went inside her and she died. It talks about hand to hand fighting, the torure of soldiers who are already injured, and its easy watching films and stuff to think you get shot and you die instantly, but nah it can take hours of agony......
Anyway i went off track here but you ge he picture, made a big impact on me, you guys shud read it. Think it hit home cos he was there and experienced it.
Won't stop be playing COH though it is just a game....
damn war sucks
BTW BOB rocks!
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