After seeing Band of Brothers, I cannot get into COH as before

[cmstophe]

Adikt, were you there? No?

War and military history/technology is one of the few things I am passionate about. I will be going to Marine boot camp this Fall, probably going to be sent to Iraq. I have tons of war movies, I study military history like it's my religion, and my book shelf is stocked with nothing but both fiction and non-fiction WW2 books.

So no, I'd say I didn't get everything I know from Medal of Honor.

You can call everyone here retarded but in the end, YOU are the one who "doesn't care what" I say or what Winters says. Good, if you don't, we can say the same about your useless tripe. I. Don't. Care. What. You. Think.

Winters was there. You weren't. He admitted to being vastly surprised by the enemy's inefficiency, but that was the way it was.

Once that first bullet goes past your head, theories and hypotherical war scenarios are absolute SHIT. They don't mean anything. In war, anything can happen. Just because the SS were (theoretically) crack soldiers, doesn't mean nothing bad can ever happen to them or they can never be caught off guard and dominated.

Yeah, Hitler's armies were so goddamed good, that they were obliterated in the east by the Russians at Stalingrad. They were good, but bad things STILL happen to good soldiers.

I think it's hilarious how you accused Shoe of arguing theoretically when you're the one using theoretical arguements. You're basing cold, hard facts about how crack and elite the SS was against what people SAY happened.

Get it through your mile-thick skull. Sit the hell down and fall in.

[Moe]

OK, everyone calm down. If you can't make your point without insulting others then don't post.

[Dux]

It's worth noting that in the BoB scene in question (from "Crossroads"), the two W-SS companies appear to have been part of the 10th SS-Panzer Division "Frundsberg," which was sent to Holland for rest and refit, and appears to have been composed of either Polish volunteers (Ostfreiwilligen) or "Volksdeutsche" of German-Polish origin, thus not typical for the more veteran W-SS formations.

Cmstophe is spot on with his description of the real events that transpired on which the "Crossroads" episode is based. The part where Winters shot the teenager is highly dramatized, as is the red smoke and his charge way in front of the line. According to him, Winters was one of the first to crest the embankment, but he wasn't standing there with no cover, firing on two companies by himself, for what seemed like five minutes in the film. The way that scene was portrayed is probably one of the most unrealistic parts in the entire series -- it's so dramatized it hurts -- but Easy Company did in fact take out that many SS that day, and they truly only suffered one KIA.

With regard to the "glorified slaughter of POWs" in SPR, I couldn't disagree with cmstophe more. Remember that the man Upham killed had promised to turn himself in to the Allies when they let him go. Every man in the squad knew he wouldn't do this, but Upham was naïve. When Upham later finds that his squadmates had in fact been correct at the end of the film, he loses another aspect of his innocence, gains a new perspective on warfare, and undoubtedly gets a sudden feeling of overwhelming guilt, for had the German soldier been killed originally, more Americans could have been saved that day. These feelings must have all struck Upham as soon as he realized who the soldier was, and his resultant action is a realistically impassioned response to the situation. It is not glorified at all; the tone is somber, the scene serving as a grave reminder of the unfortunate realities of warfare.

[nemesis09]

Aye....In a real battle....theorycraft goes out of the window when the shit hits the fan. Even the best camera work and sound/special effects can't realistically portray what a soldier feels during a actual battle. I can confidently say that because i am a soldier, albeit a novice one.

The german soldiers probably had marched a long distance...like all footsloggers in WW2. The thing about such long marches is that it seriously incapitates your ability to fight....Your vision is blurred from fatigue, your feet feels like its on fire, your back is aching due to the heavy fieldpack...and given the desperate conditions the wermarcht were in during the last days of the war, I dare venture that they were starving and dehydrated as well. Sometimes, conditions can be so tough that a soldier practically 'zones' off into their own world so that they can withstand the pain.

Under such conditions, soldiers no longer fight it computer generate ones you control in COH and BF. Reactions are considerably slowed. Situation awareness is minimal. Aim is off. If you take such a group of soldiers by surprise, it is feasible that you can kill a lot of them before they can mount a effective defense.

[Ashmole3110]

Iam German...but i get my education out of books instead of sloppy TV-Series. ( not to mention first hand accounts from familiy sources...)

Well,so do I. I have read panzer aces and have been reading a book about Hitler and Stalin's rise to power. I read alot of ww2 technical information on the side also.
SPR is not realistic,but I was trying to debate the people who were angry that SPR depicts the Americans as good.
I know the common German soldier was just fighting for his country,but y the overall goal of the German government (at that time) was despicable.

There are enough books out there written by Wehrmacht and SS soliders. Some totaly changed their political views. Some dont even mention political motivation and some still think the third reich was a good idea.

Any recommendations?

[Shaitan]

I'm pretty sure they were not actually SS soldiers that were attacked, if I remember correctly they were pretty much scrubs dressed up as SS to fool the Americans while the actual SS went elsewhere.

[Dux]

Read above:

It's worth noting that in the BoB scene in question (from "Crossroads"), the two W-SS companies appear to have been part of the 10th SS-Panzer Division "Frundsberg," which was sent to Holland for rest and refit, and appears to have been composed of either Polish volunteers (Ostfreiwilligen) or "Volksdeutsche" of German-Polish origin, thus not typical for the more veteran W-SS formations.

[MarkDawg]

To the original poster I think video games are the only place war should be because the real stuff is awful and the wrong direction for us as humans to be going.

[Pyro Paul]

the ONLY reason why CoH and or its expansions hasn't/won't Sell well.

Poor Advertisement.



when is the last time you saw a commercial for Company of Heroes? a Banner that promoted it or its expansions? use of its figure or trademarks in the advertisement of hardwear?


its because THQ isn't putting much money on the advertisment for it.

[nichtganz]

Screenshots would be nice. :Hint:

[Sle]

Can I suggest, for all who are curious or confused about the true sequence of events that inspired the miniseries "Band of Brothers" to read these three books, all of which I've read, and devoured with relish i might add:

Band of Brothers, Stephen E Ambrose - Gives more depth, but some dispute it.

Parachute Infantry, David Kenyon Webster - A must read, Webster was a superb writer, this is a real page-turner and an insight in to a man far nobler than portrayed by Hollywood (Or should that be Hatfield?)

Beyond Band of Brothers, Maj Dick Winters - Now, this is where all arguments can possibly be settled: On the matter of the smiling soldier, Dick actually seemed quite irritated that this was included, even more so by the "Flashback" on the Paris Metro, which he says is pure fantasy.

There were plenty of characters left out, scenes made up out of thin air, but the heroic action on the dike was pretty much as it happened.

[adikt420]

cmstophe I don't know where your hostility is comming from, I never insulted you I don't know why you started ranting and trying to bash me so hard. Maybe you have high blood pressure I don't know...

I'am not trying to impose my ideology or my views of this bullshit you call "historically accurate dramatic series". I simply am saying I find that bullshit what they showed in the mini series. That dosn't mean Winters couldn't have flanked and shot some people, I'am not disagreeing with that. I'am disagreeing with the way they showed it. They made Winters look like he was rambo out of the Medal of Honor series or some shit, and they made the Germans look AI German npcs on new recruit mode or something.

As I said before, a common and MUST do tatic for all German units attacking or defending would to be have a foward position. There is no such position, and their all sitting in a field clumped up waiting to get mowed down for your entertainment and enjoyment.

Even if some day I do agree with you and the others that will make me hate Band of Brothers even more. Considering they make it so dramatic like they over came so much, when all they really did was stomp poorly trained foreign units, and then represent them as battle hardened SS.

[Sle]

>....poorly trained foreign units, and then represent them as battle hardened SS.

Like the teenager who Winters shot?

[OpelFalcon]

BoB was based on a true story and just like any film/tv show, it will be skewed for dramatic effect.

anyway back to topic -
when i watch BoB or any documentry on WW2 i usually want to play games like CoH or DoD.

[alpine]

My grandfather served during the war. I have also met many veterans who have shared their war stories with me. In no way do I feel like playing this game lessens what they did.

It's just a game. Anything that you do in a game can imply death. Every time Pac man got touched by a ghost, he'd shrivel up and die. Every time Pac Man ate a pellet he ate ghosts and killed them. That's part of the fun of games.

They are not real.

[Dux]

@adikt:
I agree; that part was stupid and over-dramatized. As a result, that episode ("Crossroads") is my least favorite in the series. Thankfully, though, it is quite unlike all of the other episodes in the series, which present a much more realisitc depiction of warfare (while still remaining dramatic enough to be entertaining). In his book, Winters noted that the flashbacks they depicted him as having were pure fantasy, and he strongly disliked the way they shot the scene of him rushing up to the enemy line by himself, as it didn't really happen that way. The whole episode is just "artsy" and annoying, but you shouldn't judge the whole series on it.

[BlackOmne]

Dux,
I just read Winter's account of the scene. It agrees with how the scene was filmed. Don't falsely portray what Winter's has said. I do know he didn't like the flash-back scene from the Paris sub-way where it was dramatized that he remembered the kids smiling face.

I will post a quoted excerpt from his book to show how he described the scene himself later.

[Sle]

I'll save you the trouble

(From Beyond Band of Brothers, p.139)

After careful reflection, three things were immediately apparent: first, the Germans were behind a good solid roadway embankment. we were in a shallow ditch, with no safe route for withdrawal. Second, the Germans were in a good position to outflank us to our right and catch us in the open flat field with no cover. Lastly, if the Germans had a force of any size, they could advance right down [The road to the CP] and there would be nothing to stop them until they hit the batallion command post. Determining that we could not stay where we were, but refusing to retreat, I decided to attack. To surrender the initiative to the enemy was indefensible. I figured that when you are in a faceoff, the guy who gets the first shot off usually wins. There was really no other decision to make other than to take the battle directly to the enemy. I asked God to give me strength.
...............

(Page 140)

My adrenaline was pumping too. I had never been so pumped up in all my life. On the smoke signal, the base of fire commenced and all three columns started their dash across the 175-200 yards of level field. I was a good athlete in school, but I am sure that I ran that 200 yards faster than i had ever run 200 yards in my life. Hidden in the grass were strings of barbed wire, about the height of the tops of our shoes. I tripped once or twice but continued running. Oddly enough, I seemed to be floating more than running as I rapidly outpaced everyone else in the platoon.

[NOTE: Here we see an example of fictionalisation, there was no delay with the smoke as in BOB, Winters just ran really fast, that's why he ended up alone on the dike..]

When I reached the road leading to the dike, I was completely alone, oblivious to where the rest of the men were located.
The roadway tapered from being twenty feet high at the dike to a level of about three feet in front of me. I simply took a running jump onto the roadway. Good God! Right in front of me was a sentry on outpost , who still had his head down, ducking the covering fire from Lt. Reis. [This was also a character, aspect and scene not included in the miniseries, the sentry was transformed into a weaponless boy in the middle of a field..] To my right was a solid mass of infantry, all packed together, lying down at the juncture of the dike and the road, on which I was standing and which led to the river. They, too, still had their heads down to duck under that base of fire. Since it was already cold in October, the enemy were all wearing their long winter overcoats and had their backpacks on, all of which hindered their movement. Every single man was facing the dike and I was in their rear. I realized what the size of a company formation of paratroopers looked like and I knew this was much larger that one of our companies. Other than a lone sentry, who was directly in front of me, the rear of this mass of men was about fifteen yards away and the front of the company was no more than an additional fifty yards from my position.
I wheeled and dropped back to the side of the road, [Again, not in BOB] pulled the pin of a hand grenade and tossed it over. At the same time, the German sentry lobbed a potato masher back at me. As soon as I threw the grenade, I realised I had goofed. I had kept a band of tape around the handle of my grenades to avoid [an accident]. Fortunately the enemy's grenade also failed to explode. [Would have been a different story if it had!] I immediately jumped back up on top of the road. The sentry was still hunched down covering his head with his arms waiting for my grenade to explode. He was only three or four yards away. After all these years, I can still se him smiling at me as I stood on top of the dike. It wasn't necessary to take an aimed shot. I simply shot from the hip. That shot startled the entire company and they started to rise and turn towards me en masse. After killing the sentry, I simply pivoted to my right and kept firing into that solid mass of enemy troops.
......................

I now expect to see sales of "Beyond Band of Brothers" go through the roof, as you can see, it a cracking read.

[Dux]

Omne, Winters did say that he didn't like the way the scene was filmed (notice how his account is different than what he describes in the excerpt above), but come to think of it, I'm not sure if he expressed this opinion in his book. I forget where I heard it, to be honest.

[BlackOmne]

Sle,
Thanks! Saved me the trouble of scanning several pages from the book and using an OCR program. But, I would have probably started at the bottom of page 137 (where he describes taking out the forward MG position - facing the wrong way - that adtik insists should be there and was both in the book and the show) and ended at the bottom of page 142 where he begins to talk about pursuit.

It should also be noted that the german unit expected in the area was 363d Volksgrenadier Division, and that the action took place on the "Island" north of Nijmegen on October 5. He also emphasizes that the germans were wearing winter overcoats and "distinctive helmets", but I don't understand this emphasis. Perhaps, someone familiar with german WWII uniforms could explain it.

[cmstophe]

cmstophe I don't know where your hostility is comming from, I never insulted you I don't know why you started ranting and trying to bash me so hard. Maybe you have high blood pressure I don't know...

I'am not trying to impose my ideology or my views of this bullshit you call "historically accurate dramatic series". I simply am saying I find that bullshit what they showed in the mini series. That dosn't mean Winters couldn't have flanked and shot some people, I'am not disagreeing with that. I'am disagreeing with the way they showed it. They made Winters look like he was rambo out of the Medal of Honor series or some shit, and they made the Germans look AI German npcs on new recruit mode or something.

As I said before, a common and MUST do tatic for all German units attacking or defending would to be have a foward position. There is no such position, and their all sitting in a field clumped up waiting to get mowed down for your entertainment and enjoyment.

Even if some day I do agree with you and the others that will make me hate Band of Brothers even more. Considering they make it so dramatic like they over came so much, when all they really did was stomp poorly trained foreign units, and then represent them as battle hardened SS.

This is a huge shift in your arguement, more towards the rational end of the spectrum. Good to see it.

[adikt420]

That's what I was saying the entire time I just reworded it.....

And that's a HUGE difference in the type of men they fought there then. Volksgrenadiers were scrap units hastly thrown together with light infantry weapons. SS were fanatical, heavily equipped, battle hardened for the most part units.

Thanks for posting that part of the book, that is clearly a huge difference in what really happened and the way they portrayed it.

Which all leads back to my original post and why I hate BoB.

[BlackOmne]

adikt,
There was no significant difference between his account in the book and how it was portrayed. You're the one who said they were portraying SS units when they weren't in the show. I never believed it was an SS unit portrayed in the show. I don't know where you got that I idea.

[Ashmole3110]

After they kill all the guys,one of the men goes "Jesus christ captain,they were SS" And theres a closeup of a soldier's collar with the "SS" runes.

[adikt420]

Omne, you most be blind and deaf to not know they were showing and talking about SS after the battle.

Clearly Winters didn't agree with the way they shot that entire battle.

[BlackOmne]

I'll admit my recollection of the episode could be a little faulty. It's been a while since I last saw that episode. But, we are talking about an approximately 5 second long sentence and view following the battle.

Adikt,
Please quote where Winters said he didn't agree with the way they shot the entire battle. Provide exact source info.

And I notice how you continue to blow one little detail out of proportion just because it maligns your precious SS.

[planekiller]

yea i can,t play coh the same either but that is also because my grandfather was a pilot in the ww2 ,korea,and vitenma wars.he say his friends die every day being a officer in the airforce. he told my dad stories that he told me that is more real then any game ,he told my dad who you get that chill down your spin in war because you know the other person is trying to kill you. but he also told me that enemy is just like you young , smart,and fighting for their country and their families protection from other nations.
my moms dads cousions were on the uss arizona in pearl harbor when it blow up, so i can,t watch the movie pearl harbor with out thinking about them so yes i agree with you Pmon1

[adikt420]

I don't need to re type anything for you omne, if you want to read it look up.

[BlackOmne]

Obviously, you don't have hard proof, because none of the previous posts provide it. Even Dux admits he can't provide proof (and therefore might be taken out of context or is here-say) and Sle's post including the quote from the book doesn't say it. Note Sle's comment are in the backets and those are open to debate.

[adikt420]

Ok, even if I don't have hard proof that Winters disagrees for you at the moment; That dosn't mean BoB isn't horribly unrealistic...It's clear that they totally took what was wrote in the book and made it ridiculous.

That's not the only episode either. Number 4 is pretty horrible to.

[Thadius]

Episode 4 isn't one of my favourites and not because the British armoured forces get beat or anything, its just the fact that when informed of an enemy tank hiding just off to the right, the episode has this moron look directly ahead at a building and not look anywhere else. Of course at the last second he spots the huge tank and gets promptly blown to smithereens, but he looks to his right just at the last second, when before he was quite content to just stare at a building admiring the lovely architecture of Holland. That incident ruins the episode for me really, as the rest is pretty good regardless of "historical accuracy". Its for entertainment, and provided you don't pretend its a reenactment of the entire Normandy campaign and beyond then its a good show. If not then you get what the running battle we have here is at the moment, where neither side is going to end until the thread gets locked.

[Demon_Eyes]

Far as I recall Band of Brothers was a dramatic mini-series, not a documentary. Overall the theme and events were the most authentic of any dramatic portrayal, but being what it is you must assume artistic license taken. I am confused why there is even debate on the series historical accuracy. If someone was looking for historical accuracy they were barking up the wrong tree, if someone thinks BoB is completely accurate, same thing.

[adikt420]

Things I hated about Episode 4:

-MG42 on the roof pops up and starts spraying at the fat guy running down the road 20 ft infront of them. He's aiming it right at him at close range and somehow misses him even though he sprays at him for like 15 seconds.

-They showed that old couple wave at the Americans to go away. Later they just had to add the scene where he looks up and a tank blows up the house and room they were in...

-Tiger tank dosn't pursue the fleeing people. Had the Germans left the town they could of caught all the Americans and trucks out in the open.

-Shows them take like 4 casaulties even though they got beat down, along with everyone else in Market Garden.

-When the German infantry come up to support the tanks, theres like 50 Germans spraying at them and the Americans run in a straight line right infront of them and no one gets hit.

Episode 5:

-Forgot to add, the Jewish guy lays there shooting wounded Germans crawling around for fun....

-Then when Winters walks up to him to make him stop, he turns around and yells "WHAT GOD DAMNIT". Who the fuck talks to an officer like that and gets away with murdering wounded soldiers...While remaining an honorable soldier of the heroic Easy Company?

Episode 7:

-The entire episode the Americans are running around while 88 shells are blowing up right on top of them or like a foot infront of them and they don't get hurt?? I thought kevlar wasn't invented till after Vietnam????

-Lt. Spiers, dodges numerous 88/Tiger shells blowing up right on top of him. Then proceeds to jog through the town past an army of Germans, 88, and Tiger tanks. Then runs back????

-A soldier shoots a German Officer in the back of the head while hes trying to get away on a horse, then starts laughing about it. Then when he walks up to him he's laughing, and jokes and brags about it???

-Mg42 spraying on a cluster of Americans running through thick snow and hits 1 in the middle of them but no one else??? Even though they're almost touching shoulders?

*This entire miniseries is totally one sided, and biased, and always making the Americans look like the shit*

-They even portray the British as smart asses, and snobby.

[BlackOmne]

You just hate it when things don't go the way YOU think they should. It's a shame reality doesn't conform to your view of it.

[joethepro36]

well blackomne, i'd like to see you come with any evidence that an mg42 (with a fire rate of 1200 rpm+) can only hit one guy along with a whole list of things that were posted above.
its horrible when you see 5-10 americans in a movie take on a whole ss division and come out victorious

[OpelFalcon]

its a tv show. it *was* based on true events, its not a documentry just like CoH, its a game based on true events, but it is not a simulation.

and refering to the fact that in hollywood movies yes americain are portaryed as "The Shit", remember the victor writes the history books.

[K4G4I]

-They even portray the British as smart asses, and snobby.

I would like to know if that part where the yank tells the pome tank commander in the sherman that theres a tiger around the corner, but commander ignores him then gets owned by the tiger, It seems very unlikely that it would have happend like that to me, if i was in a sherman and some one warned me i was about run into a Tiger i would take every precuation possible.

[Akranadas]

The thing is, British soldiers and tank crew were ordered by their commanders not to destroy civilian property. As with a majority of the Commonwealth forces; what ever the Commanders order, you follow it to the letter, regardless.

[Ashmole3110]

Adikt,maybe you should go back in time and give the commanders a few pointers seeing how you're a tactical genius and all.

[Thadius]

The thing is Akranadas is the camera work is a bit off for that tank commander. He wouldn't of needed to blow the house up at all since he spots the tank off to his right at the side of the house, not behind it. You see it through his binoculars in the shot so its a little inconsistent. I agree with K4G4I if someone told me a Tiger was close and waiting to ambush I would at least make some effort to get the drop on them rather than continue along the road. It is a show though after all so its going to portray things however it wants.

[BlackOmne]

When I saw the scene with the British tank commander, I was also flabbergasted. If I had been told that a german tank was waiting for me ahead, I would have done something to counter it or flank it regardless of what my standing orders were with regards to damaging civilian property or a speedy advance.

I chaulked that behaviour up to one of three things. 1) The brit didn't believe or trust what the american sergent was telling him (always possible with allied forces). 2) He was overconfident, especially with multiple tanks behind him, that he could handle the situation once he saw the tank (another failing of many soldiers, especially officers). 3) He was already behind on what was suppose to be a 3-day timetable to relieve the 1st Airborne in Arnhem and didn't feel he had to time to finesse the situation and hoped he could handle the tank once he saw it.

Thadius,
As I recall the scene, I was under the impression that the german tank was off to the left front of the brit (not the right) since the german tank was hidden to the right side of a building and the german tank swiveled its turret slightly right before firing. Also, obviously, it was too late for the brit by the time he could eyeball the hidden tank - it was a planned ambush by the germans. The german tank probably had already boresighted that section of road and knew the exact range. Ambushes of the British 30th Corp column during the 'dash' [sarcasm] up Highway 69 were very common and a part of the historic record. These ambushes led to overly long delays by the British forces and delayed 30th Corp from reaching Arnhem from the originally planned 3 days to taking 6-9 days, depending on when you want to consider that 30th Corp reached Arnhem.

[Thadius]

LOL back to this again are we =p I'll stop now before another PM fest begins. I remember it being to his right and the tank turning its turret to its right to target him.

[adikt420]

Thats funny that they were ordered not to destroy civilian property but the allies didn't even give a shit about what they were doing and carpet bombed everything to almost nothing.

I think the British and Canadians bombed Caen so bad that it took till like 1960 something to fix it all....

Brings up another funny sequence. They make the allies look like they give a shit about the civilians "I'am ordered not to destroy any property if its not necessary". So they go through extra steps to portray that, but then they show the Germans blow up an old couple with a tank...

[Akranadas]

The Free French and French Resistance actually allowed the Allies to bomb their towns to destroy the Germans and get them out of their homeland. So the Allies were basically given permission to destroy French towns if the out come was to get rid of the Germans.

Where as, in Holland, it was all about hearts and minds. Sure they hated the Germans for invading their country, but what would you do if the 'Freedom Forces' came in a blew your houses up?. It's all about hearts and minds, win the people; Win the war.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I recall reading that the germans decided to utterly destroy the towns the paratroops were holed up in during OMG because they were having such a hard time getting them out. THat's probably the rationale behind that scene, and the Scorched Earth doctrine in OF.

[K4G4I]

didn't they bomb the town after that any way ? or was that a different town, when one of the guys says, "Their wont be any orange flags tomorrow"

[Sle]

Unfortunately it was the same town..

Look people, if you *really* want to know what happened in Holland, the book to read is "Parachute Infantry" by David Kenyon Webster. This is actually "Webster" from the series, but he isn't really much like his character was portrayed. Yes, he hated war, but he was much harder, pluckier and witty than he came across in BOB.

I actually enjoyed this book much more than any Ambrose history and also "Beyond Band of Brothers" by Dick Winters, which is pretty dry in comparison. Webster was a great poet and scholar, and is very endearing to read. He gives a great perspective on the character of Hoobler, for instance, who he spent much time with. There are also many other soldiers detailed that didn't appear in the series, but played key roles.

Anyway, for a taster, visit this site:

http://davidkenyonwebster.com/

[Thadius]

In the episode they see Eindhoven being bombed as well as one of the characters mentioning it as well. It was a retalitation attack against the Dutch I expect, and to probably get rid of any allied troops in the town.

[BlackOmne]

I just caught the Crossroads episode of BoB on TV.

I want to go the record that my memory was bad, and they did mis-represent the german force at the crossroads as SS. I apologize for arguing the point. I still contend that an SS unit can be surprised and routed, theoretically, especially if it was a late-war constituted unit. It's a shame that they named the german force as SS, since the rest of the scene accurately portrays Winters' description of the battle, including the winter overcoats and badly positioned MG that was giving its position away by randomly firing down an empty road as the battle began.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Well, duh. All they were was the military branch of the nazi party, meaning they had more influence and got first dibs on equipment and more time for training. They didn't spend their whole lives training to be death commandos. And many of their units were as slapdash as anything in the war, especially towards the end.