Blood Angels - overpowered??

[Snake1311]

I'm looking through the BA pdf and finding a few things which are bothering me. Now, the death company isn't actually one of them - at 30 pts each I find them more than fairly priced. Anyway:

Terminators

These guys are cheaper than Deathwing (!?) and considering they contribute a 30pt model to your black company, they are cheaper than vanilla termies too.

Price per termie = 34 pts.

Wtf? I mean, I've never heard of the BA being famous for terminators.


Company Terminator Captain

For 25 pts he gets terminator armour, a storm bolter, and a power weapon of choice. Again, whats with the termie goodness?

Assault Squad

Assuming 30pts of their cost go towards death company, these guys effectively get a veteran sarge free - which puts them a vet sarge, frags and kraks in front of their vanilla counterparts, and just the sarge compared to DA. While we're on the topic, 2 pts for an extra attack on Assault vets is also a bit cheesy.



...I understand BA suffer in some other aspects, like expensive speeders and having to pay for vets on squads (which the DA do too) but isn;t this a bit too much? I forsee exploitation on a major scale, with armies full of jumppack troops to tie up the ebnemy, followed by terminators and the death company.

Discuss.

To illustrate my point:

Blood Angels 2000 pts

HQ

Company Terminator Captain
Chaplain Lemartes

250 pts


Elites:

Terminators

Terminators

Terminators

Death Company x 10
- jump packs

680 pts


Troops

Assault Marines x 5
- Powerfist

Assault Marines x 5
- Powerfist

Assault Marines x 5
- Powerfist

Assault Marines x 5
- Powerfist

Assault Marines x 5
- Powerfist

Assault Marines x 5
- Powerfist

990 pts


...with 80 points left to play with (more if you downgrade some PFs to PWs)

Lemartes joins the DC (duh)
Captain joins one of the terminators squads

Result: 7 jumppack squads - all with either PF or rending, for a lovely total of41 flying models. Followed closely by 16 terminators kitted out for assault. AV is weak, but the only vehicles that are an actual threat are walkers, since the rest wont be able to shoot CC mass - and walkers go down easy to any ofthe abovementioned squads.

[BrianGeneral]

Yeah, pretty much overpowered IMO. 1 DC per proper BA squads? Nuts, I'll prefer how the old method works.

As for the AMs as troops......That's just rude, some armies may find it extremely difficult to even fire a shot at them (such as Crons). Nuff said.

[Ap0k]

The problem with jump packer lists is that they get boned by skimmer forces (Tau maybe, Falcon Eldar, Dark Eldar full stop). Anything that can avoid them or outrun them is going to really hurt. I've been toying with similar lists and coming up against as wall as far as effective mobile antitank goes (which powerfist ASM's are certainly not), though my lists have been 1500, with an aim for tourney design.

While the Vet ASM's are completely brutal for what you pay for, it's still a fairly significant number of points. If you want to add in termies, you need to pay for a transport, since a mobile army will just avoid them, and with the single Asscannon restriction, not ideally suited for dealing with vehicles. Assault Termies are good value for points until you factor in how you're going to keep them up with jump packers, and once you add in a transport, you now have to worry about it being a giant target, which means other supplementary units to cover it or saturate fire, which eventually dumbs down the amount of actual bodies on the field.

It's certainly not a simple case of loading up on as many ASM's and termies as you can, since the very glaring weakpoint is vulnerability to vehicles (you're not likely to get all of those squads into combat in the same turn, and with that many bodies, if you're playing on a terrain light table, you'll get shot to shit before you get there with no long range AT).

While I know the list you posted above was more of an example, any army that can keep it at distance is going to destroy it in pieces, then close for the kill on your under strength squads and obliterate them one at a time. It'll do well against static armies with no close combat capability, but you can't concentrate enough bodies in one place to deal with genestealer/Godzilla 'nids, you can't catch dark eldar, and if you do, you stand a good chance of getting tied up by a shadow field lord or wyches, eldar skimmer/jetbike force can keep you at distance until it can bring the firepower to bear to obliterate your shattered remnants, Tau will just JSJ in and out of assault range, filling you full of holes.

Really, it's going to lay down the hurt on necrons and maybe IG the most, but just filling up with jump packers (fast, but expensive, low body count, no anti-tank) and termies (slow, not brilliant anti-tank, slow, did I mention slow?) isn't going to win you battles on it's own. You're almost entirely reliant on close combat for kills, which gives your opponent at least 1 turn of concentrated shooting to whittle you down, and you only have 55 bodies to play with, meaning you'll often be outnumbered, and likely up against a most balanced shooty/choppy force.

The units you mention are good value for the points you spend, but not completely broken to the point of winning games on their own. You're already paying 10 points more per powerfist than normal marines.

[Full_ork]

The only things I find broken are the setup for death company because you have a unit worth about 100 points that's extremly powerfull and a scoring unit and not something you can't ignore. Lastly Mepheston seems to powerfull. Other then that I have little complaints about the list itself.

[Fixer]

I was concerned at first when i looked down the list and saw 41 jump pack models and 990pts at the bottom. Chilled out after I spotted the 2000pts at the top.

Anyhow, you're right about the Terminators. Looks like they forgot the additional price of the DC that should have been added on.

BA Assault squads do lose out against regular marine ASM in some ways though. As Ap0k mentioned you have to pay +10pts for a powerfist and additionally, plasma pistols cost 3 times as much for no god damned reason. I love my ASM plasma pistols. hop behind a hammerhead and pop it in the rear armor with a couple of plasma pistol shots. As it stands with Dark Angels and Blood Angels no-one is going to shell out for them ever again.

Normal chapter ASM get Frags as standard as well, so only the BA get their krak grenades free.

Terminator Captain: For 25 pts he gets terminator armour, a storm bolter, and a power weapon of choice. Again, whats with the termie goodness?

Not quite, he replaces all his other equipment which means losing his Iron Halo. He comes out 5 points more expensive than his Codex marines counterpart with identical equipment and has one less attack as well.

If you were to cut down this list to a tournament level 1500 points my Codex marine army with Assault marines and traits would match it pretty well. The only really scary thing is that Death company of course

[Worsle]

No the terminators get the DC member for free, assault squads for 15 points and tactical squads for 25 that is how the squads have been priced, you have to pay extra for your main squads so they have seen discounted. Also that army list is not really that scary 15 terminators with no upgrades? Oh no not that... As even with the bonus of the DC member terminators are not that amazing.

Fixer pointed out a lot of the issues with a terminator commander, he is jut not that scary in reality though I would much prefer an ordinary one with a jump pack and power weapon.

The new method of DC is better than the old one as the squads are paid for and make all those really small 5 men squads VP rich (in that "overpowered" list the assault squad works out at 33 points each) unlike before when you had to some how cut though to the chaplain though his DC to get the points... just was not going to happen. Now it is possible to make some what of a cheesy army from it this list is far more balanced that the last one and is not needing this giant freak out.

The questionable parts of this list are 2 assault cannons to a speeder squad, the baal predator (seems to be a little cheep but not to bad really), the death company (not really that scared of them but they are nasty) and Mephiston. It is mostly the number of rending attacks you can put out if you build for it that I can see getting complaints though over all I fail to see this list as worse than the last one.

[Full_ork]

The new method of DC is better than the old one as the squads are paid for and make all those really small 5 men squads VP rich (in that "overpowered" list the assault squad works out at 33 points each) unlike before when you had to some how cut though to the chaplain though his DC to get the points... just was not going to happen. Now it is possible to make some what of a cheesy army from it this list is far more balanced that the last one and is not needing this giant freak out.

Better then the last one sure, but the DC still needs fixing, it's a powerfull unit that is worth almost no victory points and shouldn't be ignored and which is the main issue still counts as a scoring unit.

[Fixer]

Couple of battle cannon/demolisher shells will do the trick.

The Tau are going to suffer against the Death Company though. The only weapons they have that cut through their FNP are railguns and Fusion blasters.

[Worsle]

Personally I would have preferred that the DC would have all been bought on there own. Though as things are they should not count as a scoring unit but over all things are better than before and hopefully every thing will be straightened out in a couple of years in a full codex.

The DC has always been a unit the Tau have had issue dealing with. This is not some thing I see changing any time soon.

[Full_ork]

Personally I would have preferred that the DC would have all been bought on there own. Though as things are they should not count as a scoring unit but over all things are better than before and hopefully every thing will be straightened out in a couple of years in a full codex.

If enough people complain to gw itself at tournies and the like, or send them letters saying what tweaks, gw might change them to at least taking away their scoring unit counting if nothing else. They have been pursaded with the nid faq (not looking to restart that argument) so if enough people around the time their real dex comes out ask for it you could see some kind of tweak, even if it's them bought as their own unit.

[BrianGeneral]

Fixer: You pointed that thing out. As a Tau player myself I can't tell how annoying and overpowered are the DCs against the fragile Tau units. Another good weapon are Ion Cannons (and they're probably the only reason for me to take it) but using them will make vehicles pwn Tau units in no time. Eldar have little ussue over that though since FP's 2-in-1 AP3 Pie attack is introduced. That's why I always suggest DCs need a fix since I believe 90%+ Tau armies will be pwnz0rd by DCs as they don't have effective counters.

As more and more people in the store may play with BA, I think I'll have to run my AC ASAP.

[Fixer]

Another good weapon are Ion Cannons

You need strength 8 in order to bypass Feel No Pain. Ion cannons wont be able to cut through it.

[BrianGeneral]

True, but at least they pack lots of shots and they can only take FNP.

[FerociousBeast]

A much better, simpler system would have been to say: "For every eligible squad you take, you can buy one Death Company model for +25 points up to a max of 10. You may purchase additional Death Company models for +30 points up to the unit max of 10."

That gives the incentive for tying your DC to your squads and doesn't have the VP and scoring unit issues that the current system has. Plus it wouldn't hurt you if you didn't want DC in your army and would do away with all this 15 point DC madness.

Seriously, the 15 point DC acquired from Assault Marine and Veteran Assault Marine squads is one of the biggest, most glaring flaws. Free DC for Terminators is dumb, but Terminators are expensive enough that you won't see too many people maxing out on them. But what are the Blood Angels known for? Assault Marines and CC! What are they good at? CC! What are people going to put into their armies in heaps? Assault Marines!

So the normal BA army will have hordes of 15 (or 20, w/ jump pack) pt. Death Company models. Add this to the fact that DC are almost free VP wise and this will become a common sight:

DC units screaming down the board carrying only 100-120 VPs. Rest of the BA army following behind. Opponent desperately tries to blow away the DC, using pretty much all of his high strength AP3 or 2 to do so (since Feel No Pain makes a joke out of all other shooting). Turn 2, the remainder of the DC keep going or assault if possible, the rest of the largely intact BA army now starts shooting. Baal predators and Furiosos are key here since they don't have to worry about heavy weapon fire for a while. If the opponent does manage to wipe out the DCs, he's gained 100 VPs. Meanwhile, BA shooting has no doubt made much more than that back.

This is precisely the kind of cheese that made the new BA codex so necessary, and precisely the kind of cheese that apparently is sticking around.

[Snake1311]

Thing is, victory points or not, the DC's problem is that its not paid for properly. If every squad which contributed cost at least +25 pts for the DC guy, then fine - you'll get your VPs from other places, and the DC isn;t any tougher than plague marines.

The issue IMO is that terminator squads give you a free dude, and assault squads (which are seemingly half the list) give one for 15 pts - as much as a standard marine. In the assault squads this might or might not be offset by the higher price of equipment - that will be seen through playtesting; the terminator thing is just retarded though.
I noticed also that no one had anything to say about the captain gettting potentially 50+ pts worth of equipment for 25. Although I don't blame anyone - there isn't much to you could say about it.

I realise the list I made is inefficient against some armies; the thing it shows most is a death company worth 80 VPs - so 8 points per powerarmoured, rending, jumppacked model. If you count the contributions from the assault squads AND the powerfist price increase towards them (so 25 per assault squad) they end up costing 23 pts per model, which is still a steal....

[FerociousBeast]

I'd also like to point out that the higher costs for things are only temporary. The rest of the marines are going to have to shell out for obligatory Vet Sergeants and more expensive power weapons/fists sooner or later.

[BrianGeneral]

When Shrike's Wing costs almost 2x of how DC costs, people may see how point-efficient are the DCs.
Until the DCs are almost all-free, the balance breaker switch is still on.

[Worsle]

Snake your list is not just bad against some lists it is a bad list it is not scary in so many ways it is not funny. The commander is loosing his iron halo to get the terminator armour and is a poor choice, there is not much to say because it is not over powered it is not really that good. Terminators are not that scary and even with a free DC, they are fixed to men, one weapon option and unlike the deathwing can not mix weapons (they are also not fearless so would always be cheaper).

Assault marines are not even that good in this list, for 10 points more what do you get? Veteran assault marines they are one of the real stars of the codex (and the whole reason assault marines need to be a troop choice) and then there is the honour guard no free DC member but this is a retinue that is worth fielding for once. Really other than some compaining about the DC is there any thing that broken?

Shrike's wing is not comparable to the DC. They have infiltration, scout, stealth and lightning claws. Can the DC get a first turn charge?

[Ap0k]

and then there is the honour guard no free DC member

At least in my UK printing of the WD, honour guard contribute to the death company.

[FerociousBeast]

As in my US printing...

[Worsle]

You are right I am not sure what I was thinking about. They also have to pay for their jump packs... apparently my mind switched of when it came to looking at them. Still given they and the veteran assault squads are all of 10 points more than the normal assault squads and far better than terminators I find it rather silly where all the attention is going.

[Prod]

It's a fairly solid list, but I don't think it's nearly as tough as the 9 Obliterator/3 Defiler, 1 Basilisk Iron Warriors list.

[W0lf]

It's a fairly solid list, but I don't think it's nearly as tough as the 9 Obliterator/3 Defiler, 1 Basilisk Iron Warriors list.

Nothing is.

I was concerned at first when i looked down the list and saw 41 jump pack models and 990pts at the bottom. Chilled out after I spotted the 2000pts at the top.

lmao Exactly my reaction. At 2000 pts most lists will be able to deal with 41 assault marines... *rolls eyes*