[1.2]Sm mirror: Howto counter Sniper(+inf)?

[ZenD]

Sorry, i have tryed search a couple of time but i cant find an effective way to counter the Sniper + infiltration.
found:
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=60539
http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=84108

The ASM-build sounds good, only drawback is to keep your workers safe.

I know they dont stand a change against LandSpeeders(Vec), but you need to tec and its hard with the upgraded Scouts out there.
Rhino + tac's + skullprobe, still alot of tec.
Think sniper-training and infiltration take about 5 min. Could be less, but im thinking about tec and reinforce cost in a actual battle.

Is there actual an effective counter to the sniper BO in a sm mirror. Or will it become a sniperBO vs SniperBO - micro match?

[Melonplant]

actually, scout plasma is better. the build order isss...

scout serv scout scout (4th scout is questionable?) (5th scout is pushing it)

cap points, harassing is questionable, but if you do reinforce once. You might be able to trick him in to reinforcing twice and slightly gimping his early econ.

have servs build armory and 2 gens, then que up two lps and tech. after the two lps are up, you should be capping points too fast to build lps so have your servs split up and build seperately (more efficient anyways)

soon as t2 rolls around research infil first. build a skull probe as soon as possible and fully reinforce the squad you attach it too. build a few more scouts but keep it to 6 or 7 max. Who ever gets scout infil first (or is prepared to detect) wins.

I usually follow up with a machine pit, but if you have trouble fighting his scouts (if he mirrored your strat) make a librarian for a durable detector.

don't bother researching skull probe infil, as the probes will be infiltrated when attached to the scout squad.

If you go machine pit, what you field there depends. Land speeders suit your current economy of lps and 2 gens, but hellfire dreads kill skullprobes like no other. if you've killed his army, field normal dreads for econ destruction followed by win.

EDIT: I got 2 sm mirror replays against the same guy, one of those guys claiming to be "noob," when he wasnt, but actually was?

No snipers though, just dual scout builds. Shows how tech speed is everything.

[ZenD]

Ok thanks alot. Really cant say nothing about it yet, cause i'll have to try it a couple of times. I'll get in touch asap. Btw could you post the replays?

[Makenshi]

don't bother researching skull probe infil, as the probes will be infiltrated when attached to the scout squad.

Is this information absolutely sure, man? Not doubting you, but if it is canonical, then I'm loosing lots of req, because my probes always go with inflitrated scout, and I always research probe infiltration... sigh...

[Melonplant]

The probe takes on the attribs of the squad, kinda. Its an engine glitch. When you attach a hero to a infil scout squad, the squad becomes visible. The skull probe is invisible, and since the creators knew it would suck if the skull probe attached and became visible, they made it so the squad absorbed its attribs as is.

As a strange odd loop hole, the skull probe will automatically infiltrate when attached to a stealth squad. It's not too big a deal that you researched it, since if the scout squad dies the probe will remain infiltrated.

I realized that i did not save the replays because i remembered that i hated the other guys personality. I'll jump online and see if i pull a sm mirror.

[Control Monkey]

What about getting the FC? Snipers do little damage to commander armour, and FC pistol pwns scouts. Detection is the main problem, but infil comes fairly late, IIRC.

[Melonplant]

Vehicles work too, but yeah if he's JUST making snipers the FC will have a breakfast.

Plasma is a lot safer.

[drcole]

Yeah, FC on ranged is a good bet because snipers do stuff all damage to commander armour.

If you're worried about builders a well place turret will pretty much ward off any amount of snipers. Infil snipers are so expensive that a turret really is a pretty cheap counter if the map allows a well place turret to push them well back and give you some breathing room.

I'd basically go FC on ranged + probe then straight to t2 and counter of your choice.

[ZenD]

would you go as far to give away map control to tec safely?

[SubakuGaara]

Good aggressive FC use. FC in front, anything you want behind him. Keep moving.

[drcole]

would you go as far to give away map control to tec safely?

To be honest, I usually only encounter scout sniper tech when I'm play Eldar - in which case yeah, tech is much more important than map control because you can't effectively combat snipers and fight for map till t2 anyway. Sniper tech is expensive and so will put the SM player a good way back in tech. Once you hit t2 things will quickly steamroll for him econ advantage or no if he's outtech'd and can't effectively counter what you're massing, whether it be speeders / hero build etc. Rather than fighting on his terms you want to let him cash up on snipers and infiltration (easily countered with FC and turret) while you spend as little as possible till t2 where he can't effectively counter you.

As Eldar, one harlie pretty much negates any amount of snipers, which will quickly force him to change tact.. but by the time he catches his breath I'll have fire dragons screwing his econ.

[ZenD]

Sm Sniper BO happens alot to me and is my nemesis. There are alot of people that think that the sniper-build is the best way to go in a sm-mirror. aka i get beaten alot in automatch. The main reason of loosing is the mindgame part. Im always sure my oppenent isn't going Snip-inf because, if i get vec. he'll lose. (I know, he knows, i know.....) So i go with a standard tac-mass build. This goes wrong as soon as he harass with his scouts. I should add here, that my play-style is based on a counter attack. Destroy first attack wave, near an upgraded LP and counter attack. with 1 skirmish squad to harass, so he will feel to do something about it.

This works well at most times, so i started some other attack builds for the other times Thats why i "need" a build to counter sniperBO in a universal/Sm way. As soon as you specialize your SM build, your lose your Sm advantage.

So far:
FC is a must(Most build dont have a Lord, dance > Lord).
FC PP upgrade. (aka armoury, Asm(melta option)).
Skullprobes.(no inf research is scout get inf research THNX4TIP).
Scouts(early defence aka must, Plasma! 1 sqaud scouts for melee, tapping to break setup-time scouts 9sec).

Vec is i win, build gen and gens

[Melonplant]

one last comment. Scout snipers have a (9?) sec reload time, but only a (2.5?) setup time. This means a scout sniper can shoot, run for about 6 seconds, and turn around and shoot in 2.5 seconds.

The numbers might be a bit off, but the tactic is the same.

Edit: I uploaded some scout plasma replays against a few races, only one a mirror though.

[ZenD]

@Melonplant:
Sniper setup and reload time. Your right, after a shot you can run for 6,5sec and the reload and setup time will finish at the same time. Shift-clicking the scouts into a new position works well, its hard but worth the practice i think.