[DC 1.2] Eldar Rangers: What shall we do?

[skid']

Did a search before making this thread btw. I cannot believe that there are no current threads discussing Eldar Rangers.

One of the biggest imba units in the game, imo. Tier 1, inexpensive, monstrous damage to infantry (all except Necron), breaks morale, FoF, cloaked. Too good for cost.

I've seen eldar players produce nothing but two guards and one ranger squad, for all of tier 1. And they actually get away with it because of the insane imba of that Ranger squad.

This is a very short first post because I believe the answer is simple... nerf damage, totally. No damage from Rangers at their current price. They should break morale but inflict no physiical damage, not for their price. Either jack up that price to 60/5, or even 70/5, or no damage, especially not for 40/5.

[Zany Reaper]

Reducing their damage to infantry may be ok, but not an overall reduction in damage. However, wouldn't you think that their drastically high morale damage isn't worse?

I'd think that if their damage is reduced in T1, then make the accuracy booster researches bump it up more than usual to conpensate (makes them scale better).

The probable reason that rangers haven't really been discussed much, is that just like with overpowered Khorne bezerkers, people will refuse to admit it & claim that their price is just right along with their damage etc because they hate tau or want melee > range or something.

If Eldar rangers were nerfed, I'd also like to see a nerfage in Khorne bezerkers too, particularly to their HP.

[mdigibou]

lol reaper... stfu this isnt about chaos. (even though you are right =P)

and yes i agree. nerf rangers damage to literally next to nothing like it was in vanilla DoW. the reason being that they make it all too easy for eldar to come into your base early on, kill your builders with impunity, and FoF the heck outta there. Not only that, but their range is retarded as well, 40... 40 range for a tier 1 FoF, cloaked unit.

take away their FoF, and 10 range, and damage, and theyll still be worth the cost they are now.. essentially they would be a 30 range cloaked flamethrower with the ability to instabreak any singe squad for 40/10 a member. thats less than the cost of even JUST a flamethrower for any race.

[Ferret]

The simple counter to rangers is a turret, eh?

[SubakuGaara]

Nerf range in t1 and lengthen the cloak upgrade time a bit is all thats needed. Nerf damage slightly (though already they don't do much. Problem is their targets typically are cappers or small squads where the total hp is low). Maybe 30 range is fine.

[Makenshi]

If Eldar rangers were nerfed, I'd also like to see a nerfage in Khorne bezerkers too, particularly to their HP.

Actually I'd be happy if zerkers were nerfed/hard capped ANYWAY, with or without a ranger nerf. Those beasts' spam are more trouble than Flayed Spam!

About the rangers... all the nerfs proposed are too much, imo. I really wouldn't use rangers if they were uncloacked, did no damage (it's crap already, except vs cappers, as SubakuGaara said) and had no FoF.

An 80% accuracy is the way to nerf Rangers, because 100% accuracy on a morale breaker squad is damn high. Other than that, they're fine.

[SubakuGaara]

nerfing accuracy is too much. they have long reload already. having them miss is too much. its the same complaint people have with assassin and I agree with them.

[drcole]

Nerf range in t1 and lengthen the cloak upgrade time a bit is all thats needed.

You do realise that ranger build time is 40s already, which is massive.. add 25 sec for infiltration - that's over a minute for one squad. I don't see how you can justify increasing that.

Range nerf is not a bad idea.. 40 is probably too much for a FoF infil unit in t1.. although first optics should buff it back up. 30 is probably about right.

Damage nerf.. I don't really think it's need because of the squad cost and how quickly they become useless t2 in many matchups (read: morale immune units)

[JimHawking]

Rangers mostly annihilate IG more than anything.

[Jaimas]

Rangers are tantamount to an instant win vs. IG. the retard-high morale drain they cause means that once a squad (yes, even the command squad) breaks, it stays broken unless it can get away or a commie's present.

If, god forbid, the cloaked Rangers get discovered, they just FOF away. And lo, the pain in the ass continues. You CANNOT win against a good Eldar Ranger user on varied-terrain maps as IG.

[Vytae]

There's no thread about rangers,because any sm/csm/ig thread becomes a nerf rangers thread eventually anyways ^^.

Increase infiltration cost to something signifigant. Given their range and heavy armor their tough as is. Irony permits me to say increase it to 150/150 (same as assassin infiltration) but 100/75 would be better. Or better yet,make it tier 2. Rangers are still dangerous,but atleast you can get at them and when heavy guns are being rolled out in tier 2 they get a bit of survivability.

And turrets dont move,sure one can keep them out of your base,but they cant keep your cappers alive.

[SubakuGaara]

I don't believe in increasing cost. just the timing. make the research take about 20-30 seconds longer even if it means moving it to a different building. I know that when my first rap gets there, his rangers just finish cloaking. make it take longer at the same cost. if you increase cost, you'll affect other things like eldar opening game and BOs which we generally want to keep intact.

nerf range to 30 (restore with upgrade in t2), increase infiltrate research time and see how that works. I think that'd be a good start. Of course part of the problem is FOF but FOF is here to stay pretty much.

[magicalcarpet]

I agree with accuracy nerf.

nerfing accuracy is too much. they have long reload already. having them miss is too much. its the same complaint people have with assassin and I agree with them.

Not really the same though because the Assassin is just one guy, Rangers are still gonna hit unless you're really unlucky, they'll just do a bit less damage / morale damage per volley.

[fuggles]

could always take off FoF, they are cloaked and all that jazz. But then, I am semi-delirious with tired...

[magicalcarpet]

Actually yeah, I'd prefer they just have FoF removed.

[Entian]

Eldar infantry cannot be without fast movement, that's a basic principle together with the light armor and low HP of most men. Either FoF or teleportation must be there.

[Tirisyil]

It's only in T1 that ranger damage is considered imba, right? Except for maybe against Imperial Guard, which is a whole different story...

What if Rangers did literally no damage in T1, but instantly broke morale? It would be alot like every other part of the eldar army, specialised that is.

If need be, add an upgrade in t2 or so that gives the rangers back their damage, or just merge it with the accuracy upgrades as is.

This way, they're good at what they're meant to be good at, but can't decimate anything without help. A supporting unit in the eldar army.

[Zany Reaper]

GameData["health_ext"]["hitpoints"] = 280.00000
GameData["health_ext"]["morale_death"] = 40.00000
GameData["melee_ext"] = Reference([[ebpextensions\melee_ext.lua]])
GameData["modifier_apply_ext"] = Reference([[ebpextensions\modifier_apply_ext.lua]])
GameData["sight_ext"]["sight_radius"] = 40.00000
GameData["special_attack_physics_ext"]["get_up_time"] = 1.70000
GameData["synckill_ext"] = Reference([[ebpextensions\synckill_ext.lua]])
GameData["synckill_ext"]["synckillinfos"]["synckillinfo_01"]["dead_zombie_time"] = 5.77000
GameData["synckill_ext"]["synckillinfos"]["synckillinfo_01"]["killer_invulnerable_time"] = 5.62000
GameData["synckill_ext"]["synckillinfos"]["synckillinfo_02"]["dead_zombie_time"] = 5.60000
GameData["synckill_ext"]["synckillinfos"]["synckillinfo_02"]["killer_invulnerable_time"] = 5.36000
GameData["synckill_ext"]["synckillinfos"]["synckillinfo_03"]["dead_zombie_time"] = 4.10000
GameData["synckill_ext"]["synckillinfos"]["synckillinfo_03"]["killer_invulnerable_time"] = 3.70000
GameData["type_ext"]["type_armour"] = Reference([[type_armour\tp_infantry_high.lua]])

LOL!
These guys are tougher than slugga boyz (technically it's not a big deal). Shouldn't they be rather easy to kill, either lowering their HP to 200 or giving them Infantry_med armour.

Rangers should still get fleet of foot, but they should do less HP & morale damage in Tier 1. Both of these however should be significantly buffed by the accuracy researches however, so that Rangers scale better in later tiers.

[Entian]

I've checked wiki and it says that they have only 35 range before T3 optics upgrade. Yet everyone complains about 40 range.

[Fixer]

35 is the same range as a space marine heavy bolter, 25 is the range of a regular bolter.

Though the numbers were slightly out, the issue remains the same. You have a long range FOF unit with stealth that's actually very durable. (nearly as tough as marines for cost) I did make a thread about rangers which covered many of the facts and figures. Especially their absurd damage vs Infantry Med- http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=149274

[magicalcarpet]

Yeah.. it's kinda stupid how if the other team builds a turret, the Rangers can just FoF past it.

[SubakuGaara]

35 range in t1 is too much. 30 is fine.

[mdigibou]

lol.
all eldar units have nearly as much health as their other race's counterparts. sometimes even more. reapers have 450 stock, i mean comeon.
you really dont NEED flight of foot, you just like it so you can dominate. Flight of foot is what helps your tier 1 units compete in tier 2 if they are outgunned.

and in that lua it says their sight range is 40?? how bout keeping them as they are, and requiring a spotter ;-) heh sound familiar?

[RoninOni]

Just make them glass nerf T1 damage.
Nerf HP and armor type
Nerf damage and accuracy until Optics upgrade
Range? well they ARE snipers, and snipers ARE supposed to have long range.
FoF, well they are eldar
Infiltrate? they are rangers.

But Tough on top of that means that even if you spot them and focus fire they will be able to live through the shots until they run away. Make it so that they would die (ALL die) if they tried to run past a turret. If spotted a HW squad in range should be able to down them quickly, and regular squads should be able to inflict at least 50% causalties before they are able to get away.

So my proposal is 80% accuracy restored to full with T2 optics upgrade. and alot less HP and a lower armor type. and I forget whoo said it but hes right, 5 members firing at 80% means only 1 misses. thats 20% less damage and morale per volley. the assassin on the other hand is once out of 5 times he would do nothing which is retarded.

[drcole]

In my mind the issues are only really with the SM and IG matchup. Everyone else has a solid early detectors (tau, ork) or pretty much a morale immune t.15 / t2 (choas, nec)

Rangers range in t1 is a bit much. Dropping from 35 to 30 before first optics would achieve 2 things:

1) let a CS tie them pretty much tie them up forever if they so choose (long reload)
2) allow scouts to get into CC with them much easier

Beyond that any issues are really SM and IG issues. SM's are average detection t1. IGs are cappper armour on their mainstay units, and crap morale.

The SM detection issue I'm sure can easily be resolved, possibly with a probe cost reduction.

IG issue are harder to tackle. I don't know if you can look at a morale buff (maybe +20) for t1 GM without screwing up other matchups. If you could, I think that'd be the way to go, so GM don't insta-break from a single volley. I still think the range reduction goes a long way to fixing things. CS harass, pos with turret backup -> t2 hwt defence -> fast t3 is still really effective against eldar.. granted there aren't a lot of builds that are but I think sometimes people really do exaggerate how one sided this matchup is.

[mdigibou]

drcole... just about every tier 1/1.5 unit breaks from a single volley of ranger fire.

i agree with making them uber fragile. they are snipers, since when in video games are snipers not the least armored unit?

it would also promote micro and FORCE you to keep them away from detectors. if you made them uber fragile though, definately keep their range. without it then theyd be useless.

damage if they were fragile? eh maybe a slight nerf depending on how much you would nerf their health

[drcole]

drcole... just about every tier 1/1.5 unit breaks from a single volley of ranger fire.

Only if you're talking a fully reinforced 8 man squad. An unreinforced squad won't even break GM in a single volley. Remember with infiltration that's 90 power for a single squad t1 - far more than any other incl heroes (or the same power cost as a GK squad). That's a lot when you consider Eldar need a further 200 power to slap the SS down (after they shell out at least 50 for FoF).

[RoninOni]

oooo 2 volleys unreinforced wow

What is that, 4 seconds?

Fully reinforced you can keep 2 squads broken

[philgreg]

How about nerf their DPS to inf_low? Simple change that will help most builders out easily.

[Melonplant]

I've suggested before that the fix to all eldar units would be to REDUCE THE DAMN SQUAD SIZES.

I mean, a dying race with 4 10 size squads of cowshees? And guardians that reinforce up to 9 or 10? jesus! So many dying eldar...

Make it so that eldar rangers can only be a squad of 5. max. After t2, the max squad size can go up, or t2 target finders can give them significantly better weapons.

[Necrisis]

How about making infiltration research require a soul shrine (t2) ? Would that make rangers useless in T1 ? I suppose people would argue both ways, personally I don't want them nerfed at all because I really like playing Eldar and rangers roxorz

I'd rather see an improvement to SM early detection like: lower price of skull probes, or make them come infiltrated by default without requiring an armory (essentially a buff to SM from 1.1 rather than the current "fix") Suppose that could create a new problem of spamming probes and using stun on buildings in T1, maybe make the stun not available until T2 as well.

As for IG... *sigh* don't they have a hard time vs everything in T1 I sort of doubt it is a ranger specific issue... T1 GM are the weakest infantry. Sure rangers own them, but scouts own them, cultists own them etc.. etc.. etc..

[SubakuGaara]

Look solution is fairly simple.

1)stretch out the infiltrate research by 20-30 seconds so that the infiltrate period isn't as long. For example, scout research for infiltrate takes 50 secs and is at the HQ. Ranger research is 25 seconds. (BTW cultist research takes 45 secs)
2)nerf range to 30 range in t1

[drcole]

1)stretch out the infiltrate research by 20-30 seconds so that the infiltrate period isn't as long. For example, scout research for infiltrate takes 50 secs and is at the HQ. Ranger research is 25 seconds. (BTW cultist research takes 45 secs)

LOL and remove hardcap of rangers all together..

That is a totally unfair comparison because:

1) Those units are not harcapped at 1
2) Rangers cannot be equipped with stupidly effective heavy weapons like nades and sniper rifles

[phoenixzs]

-Set up times should be much longer maybe the tripple.So that they cannot run around set up fire and run around again.Afterall they are using snipers.
-Squads shouldnt break with first voley
-Reduce the squad size or make them a bit more fragile so we can actually "kill" some of them before they run away.

But rangers should stay at level 1 cloaked.ıts whole idea of it.Maybe cloak could be harder to access but still I wouldnt like a tier2 ranger nor a hardcap removed one.

[Vytae]

Arguing that an unreinforced squad wont break a gm squad is worthless because who DOSENT reinforce their ranger squad after building them? I mean really lets be constructive here.

And for the hell of it a unreinforced ranger squad might not break a gm squad in one shot,but it DOES wipe it completley out in 3-4 (after the 3rd volley should be one GM with 80~ish hp left if i remeber correctly)

Also a 75%-100% full ranger squad will break the CS in 2-3 (maybe 3-4,havent labbed it recently) volleys.

[drcole]

If you're playing IG and you aren't typing up rangers with the CS, you're doing something seriously wrong. 3 - 4 volleys.. lol that's like 15 - 20 seconds.

And yes you're always going to reinforce, but the point is the overall cost for a fully reinforced squad is pretty high.. compare that to say reapers where you may get an exarch but you're pretty unlikey to reinforce early, and also keeping in mind the power cost involved overall.

[SubakuGaara]

That is a totally unfair comparison because:

1) Those units are not harcapped at 1
2) Rangers cannot be equipped with stupidly effective heavy weapons like nades and sniper rifles

What BS. 1 ranger squad is equally as effective as 4 sniper scouts or a few cults with nades. Ask any SM player and he'll tell you that while trying to strangle you from frustration; he'll say even if the rangers have a hard time to start, you can just use GUs to melee the scouts or draw their fire and then bring the cloaked rangers in the back. And hell I can't even do a cult with nades strat vs eldar cause
1)rangers are cloaked in 20 sec and cults with nades strat has no t1 detection
2)farseers immediate t1 spell kills the whole squad and her special attacks+FOF just destroy entire cultists squads in ways no other commander can

I'm telling you the right answer about the ranger fix so listen to it and fully understand that it aims to change little. 30 range instead of 35 cause most t1 detection is only 25 range anyway. Increase infiltrate research by 20-30 seconds so that rangers can still contest for map control but not for total map control.

[Melonplant]

Cultist nades disrupt the farseer. I think you should try building the rax and going for cultist nades that phase into chaos heavy bolters. It'll protect you from the ranger danger, and give you a pretty decent solution when eldars infantry high armor rolls around.

[Hawillis]

I dont reinforce my rangers. I would set the research back a little bit of a tier to help detectors out. Troubble is that eldar dont have an armoury building... What about making the research come from a webway? It could cost 0/50... Perhaps a small range decrease as suka suggested too.

On the flip, IMO rangers need a buff in T2.

[SubakuGaara]

Cultist nades disrupt the farseer. I think you should try building the rax and going for cultist nades that phase into chaos heavy bolters. It'll protect you from the ranger danger, and give you a pretty decent solution when eldars infantry high armor rolls around.

I've tried. You'll lose the map because you can't afford rax+armory+enough cultists to contend for the map (on most maps. Sometimes you can cheat if its a map like quest triumph with turret use though).

@hawilis
Reinforce rangers. Cause you won't be losing them for a while in general.

[Vytae]

Rangers can fire at CS squad out of detection range . Thats one free volley right there,then you need to find the little red glow to signal where the rangers are,thats another volley and a 3rd one just before CS reaches them. Sure then their tied up,big deal,your CS is no longer keeping the FS or guardian squads raping your GMs busy. GG.

[Xanthian]

Why are you trying to hurt the rangers with the command squad? Why the hell do IG even need detectors??

You should be hurting them by attack-grounding the red dots with grenade launchers. Even if your guardsmen are broken, grenades have a 100% accuracy, and rangers won't exactly be doing a whole lot when they're broken, or being battered around by grenades.

[philgreg]

Sorry, but no. That forces you to GL everytime vs Eldar. GL are T1.5, rangers aren't.

[Xanthian]

GL aren't tier 1.5 if instead of the infantry command, you put down a tactica, build a few (about 5) grenade launchers, add 1 or 2 commies, and hit the tier 2 button with mass execute up your sleeve. They come out at the same time as tacs, dark reapers, etc. If you're going to complain about GL being late, you're ignoring that ranger infiltration research + ranger building is horrendously slow.

The number two complaint behind rangers against eldar is that mind war instagibs one member of the command squad anyway. Why are you causing both problems with the wrong tech?

[Vaati-chan]

The last time I played ig, you needed an infantry command to produce commies
and if you attack him with nades, execute(T2 costs shitloads btw and takes some time) from commies you cant build , what does he have?
2 Guardiansquads and rangers?
by the time you can get that army working, there is probably this funny little clown on the way to instagib you entire army O_o

[philgreg]

1 or two commies, and no CS? Have you actually tried it? This sounds like theorycraft to me, and not practical in the slightest.

[Slyfe]

Bleh, honestly rangers are only broken in MU's vs IG/SM due to poor morale for IG and shit tier 1 detection for SM...fix the other races and Rangers are fine. Tau have vespid/tc (which every tau player uses), Chaos has cultist nade (which does work but you go without barracks early) Necrons = lol, Orcs has the Mek + banners....And all these races have turrets which pretty much stop rangers from harassing an area all together. Fix IG...Everywhere, Fix SM tier 1 detection... Im all for range nerf for rangers as long as they get it back after optics1 but id rather see races fixed rather than nerfed.

[mdigibou]

2x fw + spids is more effective vs eldar.

necron... you probabaly shouldnt use rangers vs them anyways, reapers are just that much more effective.

and turrets hardly stop scouts from running past, much less FoF rangers.

[Zany Reaper]

I think Rangers need only a slight range T1 nerf (put it back to 32 like it was initially), & have their HP reduced by 25%, so they're 210 HP instead of 280. Also nerf their armour type too.
That way, they're still lethal, but detecting them is far more efficient.

[Ungood]

ok help me out here:

Eldar Ranger:

Cost to Build: 200R/25P
Reinforce: 40/5

Damage: L-3.0, M-8.3, H-6.0 H/M-5.4 H/H-3.5

Scout Marine:
Cost to Build: 90R/0P
(that's cheep compared to rangers)

Reinforce: 45R/0P

Damage: L-7.6, M-7.1, H-7.7 H/M-6.1 H/H-3.1

Scouts do more damage in the bold areas.

And once you get sniper rifles for the Scouts, they just blow Rangers out of the water in regards to DPS.

Not to mention that Rangers are a 0/1 cap, where scouts are not.

and that 40s build time, compared to Scouts 12s, ouch. (not including to the need for the Aspect portal, where Scouts come straight from the HQ)

So, help me out, where is the balance issue that is such a big deal?

For cheaper.

So, I guess I could look into all the other "capers", like

Cultist, which cost 80R/0P, Reinforce 20R/0P (cheep!)

Or guardsmen that cost 160R/0P, reinforce for 20R/0P (cheaper)

Or Slugga Boys 120R/0P, Reinforce 30R/0P. (Cheaper)

and I am not even going to get into Necron with it's 0R/0P capers that are not only free, they spot Infiltrators.

So I am not sure what the issue is.

BTW: did you see the damage to Low- 3.0! (That's your builders BTW). Which really rots compared to scouts.

Their best damage is to Med, which, is Scouts, Guardians, and Guardsmen.

Go figure.

Ungood