A Question Concerning Ownership Of Software

[Rincewind]

Just a wee question and some hopefully fruitful discussion material related to it:

According to EULA's, if you own non-functioning disks for certain software, is it legal for you to download the game off the internet and use it privately? That is, if you buy the game once, do you maintain ownership in perpetuity until you relinquish ownership of the physical disks? The reason I'm asking is that I just a box of stuff I thought long lost, containing (amongst other things) the original cds for Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri and Ultima Underworld 2: Labyrinth of Worlds. They are scratched, dusty and in one case bitten (!) in two.

Now, the Finnish legal position is quite clear, that once bought and never relinquished, I still in fact own the rights to the game, but this made me think. Would the corporations themselves agree? What about in your country?

Funnily enough, if the EULA disagrees, it doesn't matter in my case, since (in Finland) I am not legally bound by any document or agreement which places restrictions that are not, in fact, possible to place legally under Finnish law, such as the "do not lend" restriction on most games. Hell, I can walk into the library and borrow Bioshock in some cities... or could if there weren't a 4 month waiting list.

[Luwinkle]

Apparently, in the US, you don't own the rights to the game when you buy it. So if you get a game, and you break it in half, TECHNICALLY you're suppost to go buy another one, even if your CD-key still works. Of course, very few people do that if they still have a legit key that they paid for.

[Octopus Rex]

If you break or lose something, you don't get a free replacement. That's life. Tough cookies.

I imagine when they refer to "the game" they are referring to the physical disks and not the nebulous data contained there in. If I scratch my CDs I'm not entitled to download copies free off anywhere, I would still have to pay iTunes or whatever.

[Rincewind]

Ah, but most game companies used to supply new disks if you sent them a mail with proof of purchase.

[Octopus Rex]

Heh, there's good customer service, then there's stupidity.

"Oh noes, I dropped my book in the bath, can I have a new one please?"

[JHD536]

Nowadays it's up to the company/contract. Most companies will replace broken disks if you mail them the broken ones you want replaced, but that's about as far as it goes. If you lose *everything* you're SOL.

I'm pretty sure replacement is just disk-for-disk though, no digital replacements of lost physical data would be considered.

[Retroboy]

Octopus, re your analogy: books don't compare to game CD's. If you're playing computer games in the bath, you deserve what's likely going to come to you.

Also, if I were to take a book back to my retailer and say "Hey, these 50 pages are blank!", they would either give me my money back or another copy or there would be holy hell to pay. There's a big difference between a defective product and a my-pet-damaged-it product.

As I interpret it and unless the EULA specifically says different, you're paying for a license to use the media, not for a single imprinted CD. So if the CD gets wrecked, you're still good to use the media that was on it. But only the specific EULA can clarify whether this is actually the case. if there's a clause in there that states the equivalent of "If you mistakenly leave your media CD on the radiator and it melts into iridescent sludge", you don't have much of a leg to stand on. Ditto if it's "If you by any means render your single license-keyed copy unusable by backpacking it through a Saharan sandstorm while naked, we're not liable..."

-- Retro

[Langy]

If I remember correctly, in some places it's legal to download a game/cd/movie/whatever that you bought and paid for but subsequently broke. I believe Australia is another place where that's how it works. In the US, however, it's still illegal.

[Octopus Rex]

Um, Retro what the hell are you on about? When did pre-damaged stuff come into it? When did playing games in the bath come into it? The subject is of stuff that's been left in the attic and damaged, being sold faulty goods is completely different. Rincewind is talking about games that his mistreatment has damaged: he failed to store them properly and one even got bitten in two. He may as well have stood on it for all a game company cares.

As for my analogy failing: I don't see it. Your saying that with a game you're not paying for the CD, you're paying for the data. Well with a book you could quite conceivably be paying for the words, for the story; the paper they are printed on, font that is used and cover are basically besides the point. If I still own the object, yet the content is ruined i.e. dropping it in the bath maybe or spilling ink on it, then that's the same as scratching your game CD: I still have it but the content is ruined. But no: gamers are far more demanding and petulant to be held responsible.

[Retroboy]

Octo, reread please - I edited while you were typing because I realized it wasn't directly responsive. And there was one of these there:

To clarify, I think most guarantees are more inclusive than they are exclusive. When you buy an asset, generally it says "you won't get your money back unless..." Licensing is a bit different, but I can easily see how EULAs could be written to tie the two concepts - the permission to use the software, and the acceptance that you the purchaser must keep the media it comes on in good order or your forfeit the right to use it - could be related.

-- Retro

[Rincewind]

Octopus, as Retro said, you pay for a license to use the media - the physical disk is a very small part of the package that you paid for. That's part of the price, but not the whole price. That's why you can get replacement disks for a small fee, you don't need to buy the license again.

Oh, and I resent the implication that I mistreated my disks! They are simply thirteen years old!

[Mac_Bug]

I'm fairly sure these replacement disks are only applicable within a certain timeframe provided they were you know, defective.

[tallblokeone]

If you buy for example, a game. You are not buying the rights to it.

When you buy a game, you are buying the right to install it(one copy).

The "rights" are owned by the publisher and a number of other groups which are listed on the covers.

If you break your copy, you have to buy another one. You then own that one copy.

[Octopus Rex]

Just for the record: media - what IS the media? Which piece? Or is it Rincewind implies - the whole package PC included? It's a means of communication. PC games, compact discs and DVDs all come under a list of "digital media" but they seem mutually exclusive to some extent to me.

Rincewind: ha ha, 13 years is a long time - you should invest in a time capsule.

Also Retro: (in the spirit of fierce debate)

(apologies for edits)

[reki]

I believe Australia is another place where that's how it works.

Nope.

[Rincewind]

This, of course, is a great reason why you should use something like Steam, since you aren't dependant on physical media.

[Alliance]

I was also delighted to find out steam also recognised all my old valve games, and added them to my games list as owned games. its wicked to know I've got a big hand full of games claimed as mine for-ever now.

I think the thing with disc replacement is this. They know that all the information is held on itsybitsy pieces of metal on a plastic disk, and are probably gonna get scratched or something sometime, probably even by the drive itself, so you get credit for a couple extra discs if you fuck up your copy. its not about defective copies or less that admirable care taking of the product.

[Stripe7]

It depends on the company. A printer friend of mine told me that Quark used to be the default page setting program for all printers. A printer lost all his software to a fire, he asked Quark for the software since he was a registered owner, he was willing to pay for media and documentation. They told him he had to buy a new copy. He told all the printers, especially the fact that when he contacted Adobe about Pagemaker they charged him for shipping documentation and media only. Needless to say that started a downward spiral for Quark and they have not as yet recovered. This is the case for commercial software, where they usually charge about $40 for the media documentation and shipping. What it buys commercial software companies is a loyal user base who will stay with a product. For a game it does not make much sense given the margins. However in the case of Steam or any downloaded game, you should be able to download and install the game again. Unless they have the BioShock's 5 install only limit.

[dreddnott]

In my country, as others have mentioned, they're still trying to prop up the corpse of intellectual property (and software patents, shudder).

Eventually, I hope that the laws will catch up with the reality of the digital domain. Yes, I'm an information hippie. :P

[Hunterxl]

It shouldn't matter.. most companies replace the disks if they are damaged for a nominal fee.

As you already know when you buy software your not actually "buying" the software, more or less you are buying the license (permission) to use the software and the physical medium (Cd's, DVD's) to use it. So the moment you break that shrink wrap seal you can use the software for so many clients.

[robnubis]

I think so long as you own a cd key, you own a license to play the game. If you lose your cd key, well then your sol. With game its usually under the pretences you've been licensed a game, not sold.

It would be kinda a grey area legally i would assume, since most sources of game downloads are used for illegal purposes.

[Alliance]

I never figured that part out. by opening the box you agree finalize the purchase, but the EULA telling you so is inside the box. it reminds me of schrodinger's cat.

[robnubis]

Well you dont accept any contract by the EULA until during installation.

[Rincewind]

Yeah, that doesn't actually hold water in many countries, Alliance. That's why, in Finland, you can return the game for a certain period of time after purchase, no questions asked, and if they complain you just take it to the Consumer Protection Agency.

What makes this case interesting, is, of course, that there is no CD-key. These games were made before CD keys became existant, and by companies that are no longer operational, thus I couldn't get a replacement CD in any case.

[Void]

The EULA is not really a legal contract. In most countries, if the company tries to hold it as a legal binding, you can just sue them to oblivion.

What I'm trying to say is that a piece of software's rights aren't granted by the company, but by the local copyright laws. So you can basically ignore the EULA as long as you are within your rights in your country.

[Kaldaris]

EULA is for most, if not all, just another "just click next/agree" window. Nobody takes EULA seriously.

[Retroboy]

Lawyers do.

-- Retro

[Rincewind]

As said, it is not legally binding when it goes against local laws.

[robnubis]

Lawyers do.

Lawyers take a lot of things seriously.

EULA amounts to very little.